Please Play the PTS before complaining

Everest_Lionheart · July 2022

robpr wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

[snip]

KA instances are always bad. If you don't go for a speedrun, the fps drop after being there over an hour will kill your healers output. So I feel double sorry for people that already struggle with that cursed place. Same story with Nahvi portal phase in SS HM.

See that’s the grata thing about VCR3, instance bugged you leave and come back and still get dropped from the ceiling with fire and can’t synergize ice and can’t see the barswap debuff on you bar and have orb spawn on tank the second Z does her heavy and have your GH lag out at exe.

All bugs that have been in the game since 2018 but let’s tinker with DOT’s.

[edited to remove quote]

ZOS_Lunar · July 2022

Greetings everyone!

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starkerealm · July 2022

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

These kinds of punitive balance changes can easily become festering wounds for an MMO's reputation.

Balance changes like this can kill MMOs. That's not hyperbole. It's not immediate, and by the time the full scope of the damage has been realized, it's far too late.

So, yeah, it's fair to say, "you should try it out." However saying, "you need to spend X amount of time testing or it's not valid," is an attempt to filter the results for the most favorable opinions, and it is a fatal mistake.

This patch sucks, and if it goes live, the consequences will be dire.

This is literally what happened to New World. It was 1-2 patches of underwhelming, depressing "solutions" and changes that absolutely crushed the game. From 410k average players at release to less than 13k now.

This is the kind of collapse MMOs can easily have, and it's often due to ludicrous, terribly designed changes just like these. AGS listened to the community to a point, but refused to back off bad ideas until it was far, far too late.

If I'm being completely honest, I was legitimately thinking about New Coke when I wrote that.

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Some of the changes, I admit, are "data-driven". The class changes? Not at all. They have logs. Lots of them. They knew Mag-centric Sorcs were performing badly, and Wardens of both types hovered in the mid-tier. They knew that very, very well.

Nerfed them into the ground anyway.

Obviously, I can't prove this, but the class changes are very telling. The decision to buff surprise attack with a guaranteed crit? On an ability that was already a very solid spammable with a bunch of effects on it: This is the result of a designer playing favorites. Somewhere, someone, in the combat team, is a nightblade main. They got deleted by a sorc, because sorcs, even in their current state (on live), are pretty good at deleting nightblades. This is revenge for that.

Like, I don't see any other way you look at Surprise Attack and say, "hmm, yess, what this needs is a guaranteed crit in addition to everything else it already does."

And of course, after that, the veracity of everything is in question.

Foxtrot39 · July 2022

Well most nerf where, by usual zos standart, delivered with a nerf buldozer

If damage was the issue, they capped crit damage, why not crit chance then? only end game player get hit by that, the casual doesn't get there to begin with

Not saying its a good idea but its an idea

starkerealm · July 2022

Foxtrot39 wrote: »

Well most nerf where, by usual zos standart, delivered with a nerf buldozer

If damage was the issue, they capped crit damage, why not crit chance then? only end game player get hit by that, the casual doesn't get there to begin with

Not saying its a good idea but its an idea

If the average ZOS nerf is a bulldozer, this is full scale urban renewal with high explosives... and a bulldozer.

renne · July 2022

Aardappelboom wrote: »

[*] Also when everyone's DPS is going down, weaving has a lower impact, and everyone use longer DOTS and spams their spammable, which in turn again has impact on DPS. Doesn't that mean ceiling and floor are effectively closer together.

Actually, with DPS going down, weaving becomes more important than ever because to try and keep your DPS at something decent you MUST hit all your light attacks or you're losing that damage. There's nothing about DPS going down due to all the other non-LA nerfs that makes weaving "lower impact".

icAirborne · July 2022

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Planesbreaker is incredibly difficult within the vacuum of current DPS. Now take away ~20k from everyone in the raid. Explain to me how we're supposed to "get that back"? Especially on mobile fights like Bahsei

Judging on the games changes since Beta, You aren't, but the content will instead be rebalanced to accommodate, much as it did in 1T or when health changed from a thousand being a player health bar to tens of thousands being a player health bar.

Nothing is set in stone, the game is constantly changing and the content is always engineered to be completable and verified as completable by the internal trials run team.

The point is that these changes are made with complete disconnect of how mechanics actually work in the game. It isnt simply change health of a boss and call it a day.

Bahsei is a very legitimate example. It is already one of the highest learning curve fights in the game, and that is in big part due to it's mobility. You will quite literally be better off front loading your main bar with fighter's skills and just casting your spammable the entire fight. Because everything will move out of your dots anyways, since they tick too slow and last too long. Same can be said for Zmaja, Reef Guardian, Rakkhat, Xalvakka, hell even Olm's when you think about the dots being wasted during invuln phase. I highly doubt theyre gonna go back and reengineer those fights lol. And those are only the trial examples.

Lapin_Logic · July 2022

After running Back to Back tests with my Breton Mag Sorc on live vs the same toon on PTS here are my results.

normal Banished Smells 1 Group dungeon.
100% mob kill, no skips SOLO, no companion.

Gold New moon Lightning staves, Purple Body, Green Mothers Sorrow Purple Illambris in Infused and Sturdy (NA is my alt server, friends and chill, my gear is pauper level) Thief mundus, Eye bowl food

Flame Front bar, Frag, Haunting curse (recast after first detonation), Crushing Shock, Hardened ward, Inner Light, Atro
Lightning Back bar, Trap, Mystic orb, Unstable wall, Boundless storm, Crit surge, Destro ult

Live Completion time 10 minutes 41 seconds
PTS Completion time 10 minutes 52 seconds

I am using Time as a metric as that encapsulates Base pop plus Boss encounters and not just numbers on a dummy

Fights of both trash and Bosses lasted almost the same.
Sustain felt a LOT better on PTS
I did Light weave when I could
with Less bar swaps I found myself able to block cast/Bash Weave more effectively in boss fights like "High kin lord knock you on your back Rilis"

This is my data set everyone else's mileage may vary

The only reason you "MUST PERFECT LIGHT WEAVE" now is if you are running a set specifically that requires high LA up time like Relequen

XiangliSYD · July 2022

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

After running Back to Back tests with my Breton Mag Sorc on live vs the same toon on PTS here are my results.

normal Banished Smells 1 Group dungeon.
100% mob kill, no skips SOLO, no companion.

Gold New moon Lightning staves, Purple Body, Green Mothers Sorrow Purple Illambris in Infused and Sturdy (NA is my alt server, friends and chill, my gear is pauper level) Thief mundus, Eye bowl food

Flame Front bar, Frag, Haunting curse (recast after first detonation), Crushing Shock, Hardened ward, Inner Light, Atro
Lightning Back bar, Trap, Mystic orb, Unstable wall, Boundless storm, Crit surge, Destro ult

Live Completion time 10 minutes 41 seconds
PTS Completion time 10 minutes 52 seconds

I am using Time as a metric as that encapsulates Base pop plus Boss encounters and not just numbers on a dummy

Fights of both trash and Bosses lasted almost the same.
Sustain felt a LOT better on PTS
I did Light weave when I could
with Less bar swaps I found myself able to block cast/Bash Weave more effectively in boss fights like "High kin lord knock you on your back Rilis"

This is my data set everyone else's mileage may vary

The only reason you "MUST PERFECT LIGHT WEAVE" now is if you are running a set specifically that requires high LA up time like Relequen

You are playing one of the few specs that have not been touched - mag sorc.

Of course you got the similar results.

[Snip]

[Edited for baiting]

shadyjane62 · July 2022

When I played the PTS for High Isle I ended up not buying it. When I played the PTS for the AWA I ended up deleting all 17 of my alts. I didn't need to play the PTS to see the awful animation change to Templar jabs to know if it goes live I will delete my Templars.

I know all about the damage changes and the nerfs from reading the forums. I know that when I stop playing the game to cruise the forums, I'm already done.

Lapin_Logic · July 2022

In addition to my last post my leveling Kahjiit Mag warden (class I barely play) in purple Julianos, Mothers sorrow, Purple staves, shadow mundus, only half my passives, very out of date CP allocation cleared the same content in 12 minutes 2 seconds.

icAirborne · July 2022

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

After running Back to Back tests with my Breton Mag Sorc on live vs the same toon on PTS here are my results.

normal Banished Smells 1 Group dungeon.
100% mob kill, no skips SOLO, no companion.

Gold New moon Lightning staves, Purple Body, Green Mothers Sorrow Purple Illambris in Infused and Sturdy (NA is my alt server, friends and chill, my gear is pauper level) Thief mundus, Eye bowl food

Flame Front bar, Frag, Haunting curse (recast after first detonation), Crushing Shock, Hardened ward, Inner Light, Atro
Lightning Back bar, Trap, Mystic orb, Unstable wall, Boundless storm, Crit surge, Destro ult

Live Completion time 10 minutes 41 seconds
PTS Completion time 10 minutes 52 seconds

I am using Time as a metric as that encapsulates Base pop plus Boss encounters and not just numbers on a dummy

Fights of both trash and Bosses lasted almost the same.
Sustain felt a LOT better on PTS
I did Light weave when I could
with Less bar swaps I found myself able to block cast/Bash Weave more effectively in boss fights like "High kin lord knock you on your back Rilis"

This is my data set everyone else's mileage may vary

The only reason you "MUST PERFECT LIGHT WEAVE" now is if you are running a set specifically that requires high LA up time like Relequen

lmao of course youre not going to see much difference because it doesnt test any of the variables effectively. Trash in the average normal dungeon dies in 2-3 aoe spammables. Bosses only have like 1m health, so you wont even see a meaningful difference between someone using only spammable, and someone using dots with their spammable.

francesinhalover · July 2022

In their defense, downloading 120+ gb just to suffer when you see what they did to jabs must be painfull.

Lapin_Logic · July 2022

icAirborne wrote: »

lmao of course youre not going to see much difference because it doesnt test any of the variables effectively. Trash in the average normal dungeon dies in 2-3 aoe spammables. Bosses only have like 1m health, so you wont even see a meaningful difference between someone using only spammable, and someone using dots with their spammable.

It's getting odd in this thread with people both complaining that "the change kills Average players" while simultaneously complaining "casuals with your casual content won't see any change, [Snip]

[Snip]

I can only go on what I have seen both Personally and from creators, Nefas with a odd dot DK and great gear did over 90K and Deltia also did over 90k on a crafted Templar, and it did more DPS than on his Live toon, and I did more or less the same damage with the same rotation of the same skills on both live and PTS

You might be annoyed at the changes, but that's nothing to do with me

[Edited for baiting]

Wildbloom · July 2022

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

icAirborne wrote: »

lmao of course youre not going to see much difference because it doesnt test any of the variables effectively. Trash in the average normal dungeon dies in 2-3 aoe spammables. Bosses only have like 1m health, so you wont even see a meaningful difference between someone using only spammable, and someone using dots with their spammable.

It's getting odd in this thread with people both complaining that "the change kills Average players" while simultaneously complaining "casuals with your casual content won't see any change, [Snip]

[Snip]

I can only go on what I have seen both Personally and from creators, Nefas with a odd dot DK and great gear did over 90K and Deltia also did over 90k on a crafted Templar, and it did more DPS than on his Live toon, and I did more or less the same damage with the same rotation of the same skills on both live and PTS

You might be annoyed at the changes, but that's nothing to do with me

I'm in this guy's boat, to be honest.

People are clamoring that this is the end of the game as we know it, but after playing around with the PTS I don't mind the changes at all. Trash dies just as fast as it does on live, bosses aren't so much a challenge as they are more spongey (not that they're damage sponges now, they're simple not made of wet paper anymore). I'd love to do some harder content on the pts, a vet dungeon or two, but I'm alone on here.

I get why people are upset. No one likes being nerfed, so a patch that nerfs -everyone- is scary as hell. But when everyone is being nerfed, it's not so much a nerf as it is brining the game back down to where it should be. I enjoy the changes for the content I consume (everything that isn't a trial or PvP), therefor, I think they're fine for me personally. If you disagree, maybe you guys should go onto the PTS and try it out with an open mind to see what you think.

[Edited quote/duplicate comment]

Skjaldbjorn · July 2022

Wildbloom wrote: »

I'm in this guy's boat, to be honest.

People are clamoring that this is the end of the game as we know it, but after playing around with the PTS I don't mind the changes at all. Trash dies just as fast as it does on live, bosses aren't so much a challenge as they are more spongey (not that they're damage sponges now, they're simple not made of wet paper anymore). I'd love to do some harder content on the pts, a vet dungeon or two, but I'm alone on here.

I get why people are upset. No one likes being nerfed, so a patch that nerfs -everyone- is scary as hell. But when everyone is being nerfed, it's not so much a nerf as it is brining the game back down to where it should be. I enjoy the changes for the content I consume (everything that isn't a trial or PvP), therefor, I think they're fine for me personally. If you disagree, maybe you guys should go onto the PTS and try it out with an open mind to see what you think.

@Wildbloom To be candid, you agree and are fine with it because you fail to understand the larger-scale impact. Planesbreaker, the trifecta for Rockgrove, is exceptionally difficult and stringent in the current DPS climate, with numerous hard DPS checks, high mobility fights and exceptionally high burst damage.

If that achievement is exceptionally difficult now with extremely stringent time requirements to meet the trifecta standards, how do people not understand this is going to make PB damn near unachievable? Groups that have been progging that trial/trifecta for months are effectively being told "Get over it, it's not gonna be a thing right now, go do something else. Sucks to suck." I know multiple raid cores that are bleeding members right now, and all of them exclusively due to this patch.

DSR and RG trifectas are very, very difficult and stringent as far as their requirements. I won't be surprised if not a single PB or DSR trifecta is achieved within the scope of this patch if it goes live. Maybe by the top .0001%, but that's about it. If anything, top content becomes even more elusive and rare. It's the opposite of balanced and inclusive.

I'm fine with being nerfed. No biggie. Been nerfed before. I've played MMOs a long, long time. I'm used to nerfs. But nerfing so hard content becomes unattainable is absurd. Especially because Zos has a LONG history of forcing players to wait 6-12 month chunks for them to "finish" a patch and apply the remaining elements necessary to bring the game in line.

Wildbloom · July 2022

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Wildbloom wrote: »

I'm in this guy's boat, to be honest.

People are clamoring that this is the end of the game as we know it, but after playing around with the PTS I don't mind the changes at all. Trash dies just as fast as it does on live, bosses aren't so much a challenge as they are more spongey (not that they're damage sponges now, they're simple not made of wet paper anymore). I'd love to do some harder content on the pts, a vet dungeon or two, but I'm alone on here.

I get why people are upset. No one likes being nerfed, so a patch that nerfs -everyone- is scary as hell. But when everyone is being nerfed, it's not so much a nerf as it is brining the game back down to where it should be. I enjoy the changes for the content I consume (everything that isn't a trial or PvP), therefor, I think they're fine for me personally. If you disagree, maybe you guys should go onto the PTS and try it out with an open mind to see what you think.

To be candid, you agree and are fine with it because you fail to understand the larger-scale impact. Planesbreaker, the trifecta for Rockgrove, is exceptionally difficult and stringent in the current DPS climate, with numerous hard DPS checks, high mobility fights and exceptionally high burst damage.

If that achievement is exceptionally difficult now with extremely stringent time requirements to meet the trifecta standards, how do people not understand this is going to make PB damn near unachievable? Groups that have been progging that trial/trifecta for months are effectively being told "Get over it, it's not gonna be a thing right now, go do something else. Sucks to suck." I know multiple raid cores that are bleeding members right now, and all of them exclusively due to this patch.

DSR and RG trifectas are very, very difficult and stringent as far as their requirements. I won't be surprised if not a single PB or DSR trifecta is achieved within the scope of this patch if it goes live. Maybe by the top .0001%, but that's about it. If anything, top content becomes even more elusive and rare. It's the opposite of balanced and inclusive.

I'm fine with being nerfed. No biggie. Been nerfed before. I've played MMOs a long, long time. I'm used to nerfs. But nerfing so hard content becomes unattainable is absurd. Especially because Zos has a LONG history of forcing players to wait 6-12 month chunks for them to "finish" a patch and apply the remaining elements necessary to bring the game in line.

I agree. Any content that was made with current Live numbers in mind needs to be readjusted to compensate. The fact that they're not doing that yet is very much an area of concern. I'm simply speaking of the content I play, the non-trial content that is mind-numbingly easy to the point that it's boring as hell playing as a lawn-mower and just chewing through everything in record time. This wasn't the case when I quit at the start of Elswyr. I specifically remember vet dungeons being scary for my casual self, but also rewarding when finished. Vet dungeons now are as easy, if not easier than normal dungeons were when I left.

Again, I can't at all even pretend to speak for the top-end, the people shooting for the hardest content, min/maxing to beat the literal hardest content in the game. What irks me, and what got me to reply, is seeing people saying that things as easy as public dungeons and open-world content like world bosses are becoming a chore and take twice as long to do when that is literally not the case, as I've seen via personal testing. I said the changes are fine for me -personally- for a reason, because I don't raid. I like the idea of these changes making the game harder, but if it make the hardest content too hard, then that content should be adjusted around these changes instead of the entire game being balanced around a few trails.

Krym · July 2022

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

I'm fine with being nerfed. No biggie. Been nerfed before. I've played MMOs a long, long time. I'm used to nerfs. But nerfing so hard content becomes unattainable is absurd. Especially because Zos has a LONG history of forcing players to wait 6-12 month chunks for them to "finish" a patch and apply the remaining elements necessary to bring the game in line.

week 1 of the pts, just too keep the larger scale impact in mind.
you can bet at least one prog group will jump onto the PTS to get used to the changes and either show it's doable whatever people say or prove that ZOS effed up.

right now people are complaining about several things at once, their class getting nerfed mostly, while basing their criticism on other people's dummy parses which even on live are questionable (there are plenty of parse-pros too dumb for basic movement). this is also exactly like dozens of those opinions in the past like YOU CAN'T BRING X/Y IT'S UNDOABLE and then quickly shut up when they see how and with what world firsts were done.

maybe it really becomes harder (and then gets nerfed in Q4, still doesn't mean unattainable) in exchange to make it easier now for people in the mid-tier. if they think it makes them more money it's better for the game to make it more accessible to a certain demographic, not much we can do about it. but I still highly doubt this is the final state of things with 4 weeks of PTS left.

icAirborne · July 2022

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

icAirborne wrote: »

lmao of course youre not going to see much difference because it doesnt test any of the variables effectively. Trash in the average normal dungeon dies in 2-3 aoe spammables. Bosses only have like 1m health, so you wont even see a meaningful difference between someone using only spammable, and someone using dots with their spammable.

It's getting odd in this thread with people both complaining that "the change kills Average players" while simultaneously complaining "casuals with your casual content won't see any change, [Snip]

[Snip]

I can only go on what I have seen both Personally and from creators, Nefas with a odd dot DK and great gear did over 90K and Deltia also did over 90k on a crafted Templar, and it did more DPS than on his Live toon, and I did more or less the same damage with the same rotation of the same skills on both live and PTS

You might be annoyed at the changes, but that's nothing to do with me

No, the change kills players trying to progress into harder content, not players that are solo’ing a base game normal dungeon. That’s the point I’m trynna get at. It fundamentally blocks progression for newer players trying to do veteran and hard mode content. I posted earlier in this thread about trial fights that are specifically made much more difficult for no reason other than the combat system and fight mechanics are no longer on the same page. It might not have anything to do with you, but it certainly does for a lot of players that want to learn veteran and HM content

[Edited quote]

fiender66 · July 2022

fiender66 wrote: »

I've done it. Tested PTS even before reading the notes, on more than one char and for a reasonable time.

Changes are awful for a PVE gamer like me. They detract heavily from the fun I had with this game.

This is my opinion.

Allow me to partially correct the negative opinion above, after further testing.
First, I'm a strictly solo PVE player with 7k+ hrs of gaming, with a strong fondness for templars (this has not always been so, when I was in guilds I used to be a DK tank, and have done it extensively, without receiving complaints).

My first feeling, using my NA templars as they were on PTS, has been somehow similar to being made to return to high school years after having graduated: maybe you do fare not that bad, but all the fun is gone, especially as an athlete (sigh).

On second thought, I've tried to introduce some changes, and see how they worked. This is what I found useful:

FOR TEMPLARS, both stam and mag:
1. Use Master-at-Arms, maybe instead of Thaumaturge (DoTs are already strong). Reaving Blows is also useful, considering the reduced puncture's healing.
2. Insert 3-4 LA's between punctures (this may be working differently for every one, but it fits my hardware, fingers, ping, whatever. The basic is to use more LA's, as many have already discovered).

For Magplar:
1.Rely heavily on Orbs and Wall, often they are enough against trash mobs.
2. Resurrect some supporting set, like Prayer or Overwhelming.

For Stamplar:
Try DW without class abilities (with Caltrops, if feasible): they work surprisingly well, now.

All the above holds true (in my hands!) for low-mid content (i.e.: publics and soloing bosses and basic dungeons like FG1, BC1, AC). In these situations I felt almost no difference from what I was accustomed to in live, except for a tiny decrease in speed when mowing mobs (single foes went faster, though).

As I said, I do not go for trials or vets, so group players may have to go for different solutions, and probably have an harder time. I'm aware of that.

Norgh · July 2022

Kind of hard to play on PTS when it is still not available to console players despite this game being owned by Xbox.

IZZEFlameLash · July 2022

Foxtrot39 wrote: »

Well most nerf where, by usual zos standart, delivered with a nerf buldozer

If damage was the issue, they capped crit damage, why not crit chance then? only end game player get hit by that, the casual doesn't get there to begin with

Not saying its a good idea but its an idea

Ideas that 'target the top end' never work. It always end up hurting all of the playerbase that are less than top tier. Only playerbase that will be hurt would be low-mid tier players who are going off by information provided by top end players that may or may not be completely outdated by frequent patches that changes way too many stuff in one single occasion. Meanwhile, top tiers will find new way of reaching their goal even on week 1 of PTS.

ZOS_Volpe · July 2022

Greetings,

There have been a few more baiting and bashing comments that had to be removed from this discussion. This is a friendly reminder that comments need to adhere to our Forum Rules. Please note that derailing a thread with off-topic or baiting comments will result in the thread being closed.

Thank you for your understanding.

renne · July 2022

Wildbloom wrote: »

For Stamplar:
Try DW without class abilities (with Caltrops, if feasible): they work surprisingly well, now.

"Just use weapons skills now, don't use any class abilities" shouldn't ever be a "solution".

Skjaldbjorn · July 2022

I went to the PTS. I tested. It's exactly what I expected. I used a 6m to avoid discrepancy between the old trial dummy and the new. I used the exact same builds for all parses. Here are the results.

LIVE:

PTS:

What I think a lot of players will miss here is how much wider this DPS gap actually is than the perception. For example, despite my effective (read; front bar) pen being ~3x higher on the PTS parse, my numbers were lower. Now combine that with the reality that, generally speaking, if your group is organized pen is a wasted stat. That means the DPS in otherwise equal scenarios will be 6-12% lower, depending on how many abilities were slotted from Animal Companions.

Wardens don't get better in trials from this scenario - they actually go downward. Yes, buffs from sets/classes around you will raise your numbers just as they will anyone else. But Wardens have the ONLY class passive I can think of in the game that exclusively gets worse in organized settings, obviously outside of outliers like PVP-specific passives.

This also fails to address that Wardens using light armor went from having a damage scaling passive to one that is literally useless in all content. Ever. Except maybe PVP. That's it. That's the only place that passive will ever be beneficial if you're in light armor.

renne · July 2022

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

This also fails to address that Wardens using light armor went from having a damage scaling passive to one that is literally useless in all content. Ever. Except maybe PVP. That's it. That's the only place that passive will ever be beneficial if you're in light armor.

And most people are not gonna be in light armour in PvP.

starkerealm · July 2022

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

For example, despite my effective (read; front bar) pen being ~3x higher on the PTS parse, my numbers were lower.

I'm pretty sure Skjald knows this, but, generally speaking, on live 660 pen is 1% of damage. So even under the best circumstances, Advanced Species went from 2% per slotted ability to, 1.5% pen per slotted ability.

The second problem here is that there's no bonus for overpenetration. So, if you have more pen than the target has resistances, your extra pen is wasted. That's why it's useless in an optimized group.

Skjaldbjorn · July 2022

starkerealm wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

For example, despite my effective (read; front bar) pen being ~3x higher on the PTS parse, my numbers were lower.

I'm pretty sure Skjald knows this, but, generally speaking, on live 660 pen is 1% of damage. So even under the best circumstances, Advanced Species went from 2% per slotted ability to, 1.5% pen per slotted ability.

The second problem here is that there's no bonus for overpenetration. So, if you have more pen than the target has resistances, your extra pen is wasted. That's why it's useless in an optimized group.

I've heard two different numbers over the years. 500 and 660. Never actually been able to nail it down which was true, honestly.

starkerealm · July 2022

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

For example, despite my effective (read; front bar) pen being ~3x higher on the PTS parse, my numbers were lower.

I'm pretty sure Skjald knows this, but, generally speaking, on live 660 pen is 1% of damage. So even under the best circumstances, Advanced Species went from 2% per slotted ability to, 1.5% pen per slotted ability.

The second problem here is that there's no bonus for overpenetration. So, if you have more pen than the target has resistances, your extra pen is wasted. That's why it's useless in an optimized group.

I've heard two different numbers over the years. 500 and 660. Never actually been able to nail it down which was true, honestly.

You can nail it down now with the advanced stats page.

So, Pen directly subtracts from the target's resistance stat. Technically, it doesn't directly modify damage itself.

So, check your mitigation. At 33k you have 50% damage mitigation, which works out to 1% per 660. If it was 500, you'd see 50% mitigation at 25k. (This can be a little tricky because, IIRC, you can get other sources of mitigation on the sheet, though that's mostly on the damage types specifically.

However, 660 seems to be the correct number. I'm not sure where the 500 came from.

lordspyder · July 2022

DeathStalker wrote: »

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

I have seen many rants but very little footage of the PTS saying "It's Gamebreaking"

If you said nothing against Dark Convergenc, Plaguebreak or Oakensoul during their PTS.
If you released Build videos saying "it's Ya Boi with an awesome new build"
If you ran a golded out version of these builds.

Then it is difficult for me to think you have "Game Balance" in mind when these changes literally make every class 90% balanced instead of the 20% and constant "BIS/best class/Meta change" we have had for over 4 years.

The "Rock, Paper, scissors" formula doesn't work when power creep and layers of spaghetti have turned the 'Paper' into a single square of wet toilet paper yet the 'Rock' is now a 40 tonne Granite slab

When sets and builds are "Banned from tournaments" then "Balance" is an illusion that everyone is gaslit to accept.

The tests for Balance are "Is content Achievable" and "in PVP is the playing field equal", Yes damage is going down but the new changes will happen (for server and accesibility reasons, i.e slower ticking DoT's and HoT's, lower requirement to hit every weave to come still come close-ish to a veteran player) This is our opportunity as a community to actually help Balance the game for the future so offer Constructive feedback from experience with that in mind.

[snip] I'm supposed to be one of the targets of the benefit of all this. I don't pvp, trials, or 4 man dungeons. I do most things solo including public dungeons and most WB. I stay between 20-25k dps on my best guys. I don't get LA weaving, or animation canceling, and don't have end-game gear. I normally run things like Hundgings rage of Mothers sorrow, sets like that I can craft or get overland. Oakensoul was a godsend with the severe Arthritis in my hands and wrists. I posted my combat feedback in the Combat balance changes feedback thread( it's on page 4, look for my name ).

The damage this patch will do to me is fatal. On my best guy, I am down to 12.5k to 15k dps. The dots while lasting longer barely damage anything cause they are so weak. I had my hopes so high that a player like me might finally get heard and be able to do more content. Because My hands hurt so bad I'm locked out of so many MMOs. But with this patch, ESO said people like me would get lifted up. I jumped on PTS the first chance I could and found myself almost in tears when I saw how low my numbers had fallen. Not only had they not lifted people like me up, [snip]

[edited for baiting]

I am in the exact same boat as you. High Isle and Oaken soul made this game more fun than it has ever been. I posted my verry first vVH clear this week then I read the patch notes and got on the PTS. It only took an hour to realize that is now being taken away from me again.

the bottom line is the patch that is on the PTS is not fun. I've had a sub since launch and if this goes live, I'm unsubbing.