Update 49 is now available for testing on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/categories/pts
Maintenance for the week of January 19:
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – January 19
• NA megaservers for patch maintenance – January 21, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 10:00AM EST (15:00 UTC)
• EU megaservers for patch maintenance – January 21, 9:00 UTC (4:00AM EST) - 15:00 UTC (10:00AM EST)
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – January 19
• NA megaservers for patch maintenance – January 21, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 10:00AM EST (15:00 UTC)
• EU megaservers for patch maintenance – January 21, 9:00 UTC (4:00AM EST) - 15:00 UTC (10:00AM EST)
The maintenance is complete, and the PTS is now back online and patch 11.3.1 is available.
Please Play the PTS before complaining
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Pevey✭✭✭✭✭
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They didn't say either of those things. Weaving change was just intended as a pure DPS nerf. They never said they expected the change to make people who weaved stop weaving.Zos may have intended these changes to make content more accessible, but that is NOT what they achieved.
Zos may have intended these changes to make weaving less important, but that is NOT what they achieved.
The DOT/HOT change was intended to make rotations more manageable for people struggling to keep 100% uptime or for people who wanted to watch the timers less and actually watch the mechanics around them.
Directly from the combat preview:Currently, to be truly effective in ESO’s combat, you need to learn to manipulate something that is known as “weaving,” which refers to the act of squeezing multiple actions into the global cooldown window. Doing so drastically increases your agency and output, and it is a staple of the game that we’ve come to embrace, as it helps our combat feel different and exciting to participate in once you learn the ins and outs. However, the impact of weaving leads to a massive gap in performance where players who cannot interact with it as effectively are left miles behind those who can. While this is partially unavoidable and an important part of what makes the mastery of ESO or any activity utilizing a similar system particularly satisfying, we want to do what we can to shorten that delta.
Yes, they did say they wanted to make weaving less important and less impactful. They ended up making it more important and more impactful.20 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Skjaldbjorn wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »These kinds of punitive balance changes can easily become festering wounds for an MMO's reputation.
Balance changes like this can kill MMOs. That's not hyperbole. It's not immediate, and by the time the full scope of the damage has been realized, it's far too late.
So, yeah, it's fair to say, "you should try it out." However saying, "you need to spend X amount of time testing or it's not valid," is an attempt to filter the results for the most favorable opinions, and it is a fatal mistake.
This patch sucks, and if it goes live, the consequences will be dire.
This is literally what happened to New World. It was 1-2 patches of underwhelming, depressing "solutions" and changes that absolutely crushed the game. From 410k average players at release to less than 13k now.
This is the kind of collapse MMOs can easily have, and it's often due to ludicrous, terribly designed changes just like these. AGS listened to the community to a point, but refused to back off bad ideas until it was far, far too late.
@Skjaldbjorn New World cratered for three reasons.
1. It was a shallow game to start with and still is.
2. Cheating was rampant in many areas of the game. In a game that is heavily PvP the level of cheating that was going on in New World spells its demise.
3. Games have a huge surge of players at launch. With the small size of servers for NW they were slow to react to player leaving which lead to many servers pretty much dying. Players had no means to transfer servers after one transfer other than starting all over from scratch.
I recall most of the players left in the first couple of weeks of the game being live and before any major changes were made. NW is a prime example of a company entering a business segment they have no clue about.
I started playing NW back in Alpha and into Beta. Even though I knew what to expect I still bought the game (glutton for punishment) and fully leveled up a character in PvE and PvP.
2 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
They didn't say either of those things. Weaving change was just intended as a pure DPS nerf. They never said they expected the change to make people who weaved stop weaving.Zos may have intended these changes to make content more accessible, but that is NOT what they achieved.
Zos may have intended these changes to make weaving less important, but that is NOT what they achieved.
The DOT/HOT change was intended to make rotations more manageable for people struggling to keep 100% uptime or for people who wanted to watch the timers less and actually watch the mechanics around them.
Watch this past Monday’s eso live. They said they wanted to decrease the distance between high end and low end dps, so they can make content more universally used.
Go to about 42:15 in.
Also;
“Coming in Update 35, we’re reducing Light and Heavy Attacks’ impact in damage production by adjusting their damage to deal a flat amount, regardless of stats. We have spent a considerable amount of time investigating the baseline experience that a new player would have with these attacks, using that as our starting point for how much damage they do moving forward. The aim is to not harm the low-end experience, and target only the higher end. In doing so, we hope to reduce the difference of damage potential in a way that retains the satisfaction of learning to weave, where the impact is still felt, but to a much less degree than before.”
https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/home
So yes, they wanted to “make content more accessible” and “make weaving less important” which they failed at doing.16 -
Skjaldbjorn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Skjaldbjorn wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »These kinds of punitive balance changes can easily become festering wounds for an MMO's reputation.
Balance changes like this can kill MMOs. That's not hyperbole. It's not immediate, and by the time the full scope of the damage has been realized, it's far too late.
So, yeah, it's fair to say, "you should try it out." However saying, "you need to spend X amount of time testing or it's not valid," is an attempt to filter the results for the most favorable opinions, and it is a fatal mistake.
This patch sucks, and if it goes live, the consequences will be dire.
This is literally what happened to New World. It was 1-2 patches of underwhelming, depressing "solutions" and changes that absolutely crushed the game. From 410k average players at release to less than 13k now.
This is the kind of collapse MMOs can easily have, and it's often due to ludicrous, terribly designed changes just like these. AGS listened to the community to a point, but refused to back off bad ideas until it was far, far too late.
@Skjaldbjorn New World cratered for three reasons.
1. It was a shallow game to start with and still is.
2. Cheating was rampant in many areas of the game. In a game that is heavily PvP the level of cheating that was going on in New World spells its demise.
3. Games have a huge surge of players at launch. With the small size of servers for NW they were slow to react to player leaving which lead to many servers pretty much dying. Players had no means to transfer servers after one transfer other than starting all over from scratch.
I recall most of the players left in the first couple of weeks of the game being live and before any major changes were made. NW is a prime example of a company entering a business segment they have no clue about.
I started playing NW back in Alpha and into Beta. Even though I knew what to expect I still bought the game (glutton for punishment) and fully leveled up a character in PvE and PvP.
I beta-tested New World and played until around November. There were a lot of good things happening. They could have brought the population back to stability by implementing sound, logical solutions in a timely fashion. They did not. If they had, I would still be there.0 -
Arthtur✭✭✭✭✭
✭SighLapin_Logic wrote: »The tests for Balance are "Is content Achievable" and "in PVP is the playing field equal", Yes damage is going down but the new changes will happen (for server and accesibility reasons, i.e slower ticking DoT's and HoT's, lower requirement to hit every weave to come still come close-ish to a veteran player) This is our opportunity as a community to actually help Balance the game for the future so offer Constructive feedback from experience with that in mind.
I think you have good intentions, and I think ppl like xynode have good intentions, but you are unintentionally misleading ppl into thinking these changes will not negatively affect them.
Zos may have intended these changes to make content more accessible, but that is NOT what they achieved.
Zos may have intended these changes to make weaving less important, but that is NOT what they achieved.
Everyone sees their damage go down on PTS. Everyone. For an elite raider, that may mean vet trials are completed a little bit more slowly and with more effort. For mid-tier players, it will be the difference between getting that monster helm or not, or getting that VMA clear or not. The difference will be felt MUCH more keenly by exactly the players ZOS says they are trying to help.
In terms of LA weaving, the new BiS that falls out from all these changes is relequen+kinras+vma inferno, ALL OF WHICH REQUIRE PERFECT WEAVING. Zos has accomplished the opposite of what they set out to do. There is a really good post now with some numbers showing that by X_K.
Look past what ZOS is telling you they are trying to do and see what they actually did.
Pevey
Gilliam clearly stated their intention was to reduce the damage potential from weaving. If they are reducing the amount of damage done with weaving, and especially what LA weaving provides, then they are in fact making weaving less important.
Also, I may be a noob as I have only been around ESO a little more than a year, but the current combat design on the Live servers requires a "PERFECT" LA weave to get the most damage whereas the PTS change are much more forgiving on timing.
Even with the use of Relequen, Kinras, or the vMA inferno staff the requirements for PERFECT delivery of weaving to obtain optimal and near-optimal DPS is eliminated. This is all on paper at least as I have not had the time to download the PTS ujpdate.
It would be interesting to hear about players experience testing these changes on the PTS.
I dont understand. There is nothing diffrent about those sets between live nad PTS. If u have problems with weaving those changes wont help u at all.
U wont get more damage from Relequen or MA staff.
U wont have easier time with keeping up stack of Kinras.
U will have less damage from DoTs making your life even harder.
There were ppl who showed parses without LA on live. The best ones were at 106k i think.
Somebody did no LA parse on PTS. He got 70k. While with LA he got a little over 100k.
So again, where exactly changes on PTS help u? U just got nerfed like everyone in the game.
And there is a lot of feedback on parses already. And the results are simple - game become even harder for ppl who already struggle.
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Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Skjaldbjorn wrote: »Skjaldbjorn wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »These kinds of punitive balance changes can easily become festering wounds for an MMO's reputation.
Balance changes like this can kill MMOs. That's not hyperbole. It's not immediate, and by the time the full scope of the damage has been realized, it's far too late.
So, yeah, it's fair to say, "you should try it out." However saying, "you need to spend X amount of time testing or it's not valid," is an attempt to filter the results for the most favorable opinions, and it is a fatal mistake.
This patch sucks, and if it goes live, the consequences will be dire.
This is literally what happened to New World. It was 1-2 patches of underwhelming, depressing "solutions" and changes that absolutely crushed the game. From 410k average players at release to less than 13k now.
This is the kind of collapse MMOs can easily have, and it's often due to ludicrous, terribly designed changes just like these. AGS listened to the community to a point, but refused to back off bad ideas until it was far, far too late.
@Skjaldbjorn New World cratered for three reasons.
1. It was a shallow game to start with and still is.
2. Cheating was rampant in many areas of the game. In a game that is heavily PvP the level of cheating that was going on in New World spells its demise.
3. Games have a huge surge of players at launch. With the small size of servers for NW they were slow to react to player leaving which lead to many servers pretty much dying. Players had no means to transfer servers after one transfer other than starting all over from scratch.
I recall most of the players left in the first couple of weeks of the game being live and before any major changes were made. NW is a prime example of a company entering a business segment they have no clue about.
I started playing NW back in Alpha and into Beta. Even though I knew what to expect I still bought the game (glutton for punishment) and fully leveled up a character in PvE and PvP.
I beta-tested New World and played until around November. There were a lot of good things happening. They could have brought the population back to stability by implementing sound, logical solutions in a timely fashion. They did not. If they had, I would still be there.
Oh, and I pretty much stated they were slow to react to the population changes. I was merely pointing out the real reasons why players left as it was a reaction to what was not done vs what was done.
The only big change I recall happening during the early weeks was shutting down different systems on the game until they closed off an exploit/cheat which was a constant whack-a-mole process. They failed to learn they had a poor design to prevent cheating during development as cheating was going on even in alpha.
Ironically, the "successful" multiplayer game published by AG is not a game they developed. It was a live game for a couple of years before AG published it.2 -
renne✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Lapin_Logic wrote: »If you said nothing against Dark Convergenc, Plaguebreak or Oakensoul during their PTS.
There were dozens of threads on all three of these sets during their PTS runs. Hundreds of comments. Please, let's not pretend everyone has been sitting around just letting it all happen and ONLY turned out for this patch.
15 -
DairyCat✭✭✭
No where in that paragraph do they say they want to make weaving less important. Their logic is that weaving is most optimally utilised by top players who manage more la/s than lower end players so nerfing weaving should in theory affect top end players more than lower end players. This assumption in fact relies on top end players continuing to weave.
They didn't say either of those things. Weaving change was just intended as a pure DPS nerf. They never said they expected the change to make people who weaved stop weaving.Zos may have intended these changes to make content more accessible, but that is NOT what they achieved.
Zos may have intended these changes to make weaving less important, but that is NOT what they achieved.
The DOT/HOT change was intended to make rotations more manageable for people struggling to keep 100% uptime or for people who wanted to watch the timers less and actually watch the mechanics around them.
Directly from the combat preview:Currently, to be truly effective in ESO’s combat, you need to learn to manipulate something that is known as “weaving,” which refers to the act of squeezing multiple actions into the global cooldown window. Doing so drastically increases your agency and output, and it is a staple of the game that we’ve come to embrace, as it helps our combat feel different and exciting to participate in once you learn the ins and outs. However, the impact of weaving leads to a massive gap in performance where players who cannot interact with it as effectively are left miles behind those who can. While this is partially unavoidable and an important part of what makes the mastery of ESO or any activity utilizing a similar system particularly satisfying, we want to do what we can to shorten that delta.
Yes, they did say they wanted to make weaving less important and less impactful. They ended up making it more important and more impactful.
Shortening the delta does not necessitate raising the floor. If the lower end of damage is nerfed by 10% and the top end is nerfed by 30% the delta has been shortened. No where did they say they expected the changes to increase your access to content.1 -
Pevey✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
No where in that paragraph do they say they want to make weaving less important. Their logic is that weaving is most optimally utilised by top players who manage more la/s than lower end players so nerfing weaving should in theory affect top end players more than lower end players. This assumption in fact relies on top end players continuing to weave.
They didn't say either of those things. Weaving change was just intended as a pure DPS nerf. They never said they expected the change to make people who weaved stop weaving.Zos may have intended these changes to make content more accessible, but that is NOT what they achieved.
Zos may have intended these changes to make weaving less important, but that is NOT what they achieved.
The DOT/HOT change was intended to make rotations more manageable for people struggling to keep 100% uptime or for people who wanted to watch the timers less and actually watch the mechanics around them.
Directly from the combat preview:Currently, to be truly effective in ESO’s combat, you need to learn to manipulate something that is known as “weaving,” which refers to the act of squeezing multiple actions into the global cooldown window. Doing so drastically increases your agency and output, and it is a staple of the game that we’ve come to embrace, as it helps our combat feel different and exciting to participate in once you learn the ins and outs. However, the impact of weaving leads to a massive gap in performance where players who cannot interact with it as effectively are left miles behind those who can. While this is partially unavoidable and an important part of what makes the mastery of ESO or any activity utilizing a similar system particularly satisfying, we want to do what we can to shorten that delta.
Yes, they did say they wanted to make weaving less important and less impactful. They ended up making it more important and more impactful.
Shortening the delta does not necessitate raising the floor. If the lower end of damage is nerfed by 10% and the top end is nerfed by 30% the delta has been shortened. No where did they say they expected the changes to increase your access to content.
Wow. Lessening the delta == making it less important.
As for the second point, let’s go back to the combat update again:The main focuses in Update 35 are twofold: improving accessibility…
In the ESO live, they clarified what they meant: more people attempting vet content.
They stated their goals. They are not really debatable.11 -
DairyCat✭✭✭
Going from 42:15 like you suggested they're talking about lowering the progression curve. They're not talking about any of these changes granting instant access or buffing the floor. If weaving does less damage than the DPS difference between a perfect weaver and a non-perfect weaver is less. If rotations are longer then it's much easier to keep maximum uptime so there's in theory less people losing DPS due to rotation management. A lower progression curve means they can design future content for a wider audience since the barrier falls further along the line of a gentle curve than a steep one.
They didn't say either of those things. Weaving change was just intended as a pure DPS nerf. They never said they expected the change to make people who weaved stop weaving.Zos may have intended these changes to make content more accessible, but that is NOT what they achieved.
Zos may have intended these changes to make weaving less important, but that is NOT what they achieved.
The DOT/HOT change was intended to make rotations more manageable for people struggling to keep 100% uptime or for people who wanted to watch the timers less and actually watch the mechanics around them.
Watch this past Monday’s eso live. They said they wanted to decrease the distance between high end and low end dps, so they can make content more universally used.
Go to about 42:15 in.
Also;
“Coming in Update 35, we’re reducing Light and Heavy Attacks’ impact in damage production by adjusting their damage to deal a flat amount, regardless of stats. We have spent a considerable amount of time investigating the baseline experience that a new player would have with these attacks, using that as our starting point for how much damage they do moving forward. The aim is to not harm the low-end experience, and target only the higher end. In doing so, we hope to reduce the difference of damage potential in a way that retains the satisfaction of learning to weave, where the impact is still felt, but to a much less degree than before.”
https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/home
So yes, they wanted to “make content more accessible” and “make weaving less important” which they failed at doing.
This is all pretty logical to me.
I don't agree with all the changes (e.g. I think light attacks should just receive a percentage nerf rather than just being a fixed non-scaling damage) and I think some classes have been hit harder than others and that needs to be adjusted, but I'm in full agreement with the theory of their approach and the general gist of what the current PTS patch accomplishes.
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Pevey✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭What I’ve been trying to explain to you is that the importance of weaving on the pts is increased. What they intended to do and what they actually did are two different things. Trust the people who are doing the parses on pts or do them yourself. Either way, do not blindly trust in zos.5 -
Lapin_Logic✭✭✭✭✭[snip]
No, I'm [snip] posting a thread basically saying 'Play the PTS so ZOS has your data point'
You can go sit with Sithis.
You provided your data poin to them which is what I said do.
I have Muscular Dystrophy and Tendonitis, My Sorc with 'My Rotation' feels fine without any changes, my Necro (in the same gear) never performed well for me just as they did on live, but I likely need to run different skills or buffs on the necro (and I hate confused Blast Bones).
Maybe you need to check your CP or buffs to up your damage.
[edited to remove quote/reference to quote]Edited by ZOS_Lunar on July 13, 2022 6:59PM0 -
Lapin_Logic✭✭✭✭✭NanoTechnicianHQ wrote: »Lapin_Logic wrote: »I have seen many rants but very little footage of the PTS saying "It's Gamebreaking"If you said nothing against Dark Convergenc, Plaguebreak or Oakensoul during their PTS.
If you released Build videos saying "it's Ya Boi with an awesome new build"
If you ran a golded out version of these builds.
Then it is difficult for me to think you have "Game Balance" in mind when these changes literally make every class 90% balanced instead of the 20% and constant "BIS/best class/Meta change" we have had for over 4 years.
The "Rock, Paper, scissors" formula doesn't work when power creep and layers of spaghetti have turned the 'Paper' into a single square of wet toilet paper yet the 'Rock' is now a 40 tonne Granite slab
When sets and builds are "Banned from tournaments" then "Balance" is an illusion that everyone is gaslit to accept.
The tests for Balance are "Is content Achievable" and "in PVP is the playing field equal", Yes damage is going down but the new changes will happen (for server and accesibility reasons, i.e slower ticking DoT's and HoT's, lower requirement to hit every weave to come still come close-ish to a veteran player) This is our opportunity as a community to actually help Balance the game for the future so offer Constructive feedback from experience with that in mind.
Just adding two gold to this, part of the reason is to prevent numbers creep, if you've seen this being solved make a post about how it was fixed. If you know of a way of making content scale differently, like a Vet+ then post it.
If anything if you're reading this go get the PTS and see whats going on, the team need data, post changes using addons showing hard data differences, also unexpected changes as well between live and PTS for example. Even if you've not done this before think of it as opportunity.
Good points Lapin_Logic.
Thank You, I just want whatever changes ZOS intend worked through on the PTS, so want people to give a Data point.... For some reason many repliers seem to think this means "I LOVE ZOS ❤️ AND WANT TO MARRY THEM"
Heck it doesn't even mean I like it, No one likes to deal relatively less damage, but I do like having balance in the games I play and hope by week 5 we see the shell of that instead of the PTS being deserted then week 1 of live is a dumpster fire similar to High Isle launch where Quests were bugged, Ember was bugged in the clothing station and the 2 person horse drops in the crown store with it's "speed upgrade" floating off it's legs0 -
Skjaldbjorn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Lapin_Logic wrote: »Heck it doesn't even mean I like it, No one likes to deal relatively less damage, but I do like having balance in the games I play and hope by week 5 we see the shell of that instead of the PTS being deserted then week 1 of live is a dumpster fire similar to High Isle launch where Quests were bugged, Ember was bugged in the clothing station and the 2 person horse drops in the crown store with it's "speed upgrade" floating off it's legs
But...there's not balance. That's the issue. Sorcs and Wardens are both basically in the dumpster. Balance is better right now on live than what these proposed changes accomplish.
10 -
Lapin_Logic✭✭✭✭✭Lapin_Logic wrote: »If you said nothing against Dark Convergenc, Plaguebreak or Oakensoul during their PTS.
There were dozens of threads on all three of these sets during their PTS runs. Hundreds of comments. Please, let's not pretend everyone has been sitting around just letting it all happen and ONLY turned out for this patch.
Then the remark isn't aimed at you.
It was aimed toward those who "hoped Oaken made it to live" and were happy to be a demi god in the game above other classes or builds but are also now upset that all the %modifiers are going and every class DoT is getting standardised with less scope for one shot builds.Edited by Lapin_Logic on July 13, 2022 6:38AM0 -
Lapin_Logic✭✭✭✭✭Skjaldbjorn wrote: »Lapin_Logic wrote: »Heck it doesn't even mean I like it, No one likes to deal relatively less damage, but I do like having balance in the games I play and hope by week 5 we see the shell of that instead of the PTS being deserted then week 1 of live is a dumpster fire similar to High Isle launch where Quests were bugged, Ember was bugged in the clothing station and the 2 person horse drops in the crown store with it's "speed upgrade" floating off it's legs
But...there's not balance. That's the issue. Sorcs and Wardens are both basically in the dumpster. Balance is better right now on live than what these proposed changes accomplish.
I feel like I keep saying this.
This is Why ZOS needs your data so they have a large pool and know what any outliers are.
This is Week One.0 -
PrincessOfThieves✭✭✭✭✭
✭Lapin_Logic wrote: »
I have Muscular Dystrophy and Tendonitis, My Sorc with 'My Rotation' feels fine without any changes, my Necro (in the same gear) never performed well for me just as they did on live, but I likely need to run different skills or buffs on the necro (and I hate confused Blast Bones).
Maybe you need to check your CP or buffs to up your damage.
Can you post parses for comparison? From what I've seen so far, sorcs were hit the hardest.
4 -
JustAGoodPlayer✭✭✭✭Plague breaker and dark convergence was nerfed to PVE state was it not ? And dark convergence even has bad calldown , if it would be 20 seconds it will be better to land in 20 seconds roration, if all skills be 20 seconds, not 15/20/24/36 ...
I love plague breaker, it was nerfed. What you do not like ?
Now new sets do not let put dots on target it punish debuffs - i do not like this change.
And who care about tornaments where people can not stand against some builds ?
They can even only light attack each other. Tornament where all is not legit - is not a tornament.0 -
Aardappelboom✭✭✭✭✭Planesbreaker is incredibly difficult within the vacuum of current DPS. Now take away ~20k from everyone in the raid. Explain to me how we're supposed to "get that back"? Especially on mobile fights like Bahsei where having longer DoT duration and fewer ticks is actually directly detrimental to us.
I went ahead and quoted you even though not all of my post is related to your comment. Now I kind of fancy my high APM dots an hots gameplay and I definitely see that a few of these changes having a big (for me more or less negative) impact, but apart from all that and just to think a bit out of the box here, I do wonder about a few things, maybe someone can clarify based on testing since I can't get on PTS.- Everyone is saying all classes are effectively destroyed, but if all classes are destroyed, some more, others less, doesn't that basically level the playing field in the grander scheme of things?
- Also when everyone's DPS is going down, weaving has a lower impact, and everyone use longer DOTS and spams their spammable, which in turn again has impact on DPS. Doesn't that mean ceiling and floor are effectively closer together.
- then finally, what if, hypothetically, some content was scaled back a bit to compensate for the DPS loss, wouldn't that make it accessible again?
Now I'm not saying anything about the quality of these changes, I still think that no one was really asking for these changes and there were other options to go at it that didn't involve a rescaling of difficulty but I'm wondering objectively if they really missed the mark on closing the gap, as I see it, it'll probably turn out that they succeed in what they wanted to do.
I'm not gonna take the odd player that only uses light attacks into account here, I've been playing for 3 years on Xbox and I haven't met that guy/girl just yet, most beginners have at least a notion of using skills.
Edited by Aardappelboom on July 13, 2022 7:42AM2 -
ApoAlaia✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭From my own personal perspective, on live I am doing OK without perfect weaving because Deadly Strike is significantly more forgiving than Kinra's.
I also have stampede to help with my positioning issues while still not being a 'lost action'. I can reposition myself and deal damage at the same time.
So I'm improving, and the logs seem to concur, while clearing content with my friends.
In the PTS I need to develop perfect, pinpoint positioning and perfect weaving BEFORE I can think on doing the content. Currently my dps output is not good enough for the content we are currently clearing. I wouldn't even have made it in with this dps, let alone stay.
Furthermore everyone else is struggling too, which means there is far less headroom to make up for the shortcomings of people like myself that are still 'getting there'.
Stampede is no longer viable, may as well just walk to reposition myself because the skill is now a waste of stamina. I have to backbar a MA destro instead.
Kinra's as I said is not even remotely as forgiving as Deadly Strike either. I have to weave perfectly. More so with how the PTS makes LAs even more important than they are in live.
I have humped the dummy for a couple of hours in the PTS, the results are not promising. I have ordered some new hardware that might help but that at the moment is an unknown quantity (other than the quantity that has disappeared from my bank account which is well known).
Ultimately these changes only make me feel inadequate, but inadequate in a way to provides no path forward, not inadequate in a way that stimulates me to overcome.
It is a very clear possibility that if it goes live I will be relegated to housing, crafting and trading because I have already done every that can be done in normal trials and dungeons on two accounts and currently (on the PTS) I don't make the cut for veteran content.
EDIT: Clarification.Edited by ApoAlaia on July 13, 2022 7:59AM7 -
Skjaldbjorn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Lapin_Logic wrote: »Skjaldbjorn wrote: »Lapin_Logic wrote: »Heck it doesn't even mean I like it, No one likes to deal relatively less damage, but I do like having balance in the games I play and hope by week 5 we see the shell of that instead of the PTS being deserted then week 1 of live is a dumpster fire similar to High Isle launch where Quests were bugged, Ember was bugged in the clothing station and the 2 person horse drops in the crown store with it's "speed upgrade" floating off it's legs
But...there's not balance. That's the issue. Sorcs and Wardens are both basically in the dumpster. Balance is better right now on live than what these proposed changes accomplish.
I feel like I keep saying this.
This is Why ZOS needs your data so they have a large pool and know what any outliers are.
This is Week One.
[snip]
You cannot sit here and tell me Zos just "didn't understand" that removing 6-12% flat damage, 8% shalks damage, ~43% Winter's damage and the bird bleed entirely from Warden would hurt them. They don't need data. They knew EXACTLY what these changes would do.
[snip] Some of the changes, I admit, are "data-driven". The class changes? Not at all. They have logs. Lots of them. They knew Mag-centric Sorcs were performing badly, and Wardens of both types hovered in the mid-tier. They knew that very, very well.
Nerfed them into the ground anyway.
[edited for baiting]Edited by ZOS_Lunar on July 13, 2022 7:00PM20 -
Skjaldbjorn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Aardappelboom wrote: »- Everyone is saying all classes are effectively destroyed, but if all classes are destroyed, some more, others less, doesn't that basically level the playing field in the grander scheme of things?
Negative. Necros, for example, saw precious few direct nerfs. They were already the least impacted by the DoT changes due to their passive providing (now 10%) increased DoT damage. Necros benefited similarly from the DoT meta some time ago. When sweeping changes are made to DoTs, Necros always come out looking very, very good, regardless of direction. They either get buffed the most, or nerfed the least.
Wardens, on the other hand, lost 6-12% flat damage on average, depends on build, 8% from Shalks, ~43% from Winter's, and from what I have seen on parses, Bear lost around ~5-7k overall. These were severe, brutal nerfs that were totally unnecessary for a class consistently hovering in the mid-tier.
Read the notes. Classes were damaged by wildly varying degrees.[*] Also when everyone's DPS is going down, weaving has a lower impact, and everyone use longer DOTS and spams their spammable, which in turn again has impact on DPS. Doesn't that mean ceiling and floor are effectively closer together.
Not necessarily. Define ceiling and floor. Some guy who just light attack spams will now have a significantly more difficult time clearing...well, anything. If you mean end-game to mid-game, slightly I suppose. Hardly enough to be significant. End-game players will either quit, or find builds that allow them to continue to be above the mid-tier. It's how it goes and why most MMO developers stop caring. Blizzard, for example. When polled, around ~7% of players had defeated a single Mythic boss. They stopped caring about "accessibility" because it's not realistic in far too many cases.[*] then finally, what if, hypothetically, some content was scaled back a bit to compensate for the DPS loss, wouldn't that make it accessible again?
If the aim is to reduce damage requirements and/or increase time allowed for trifecta achievements, fine. But it needed to come NOW, not 3-6 months down the road. You have cores progging Planesbreaker this moment. Why should they be forced to sit around with their thumb up their ass for six months while Zos figures out what they want to do? No. Complete the project or don't. One patch or wait. Delivering yet another grossly unfinished and poorly designed product (like the LA/HA revamp in Summerset that created a year-long Nightblade meta because no one else could sustain LA rotations and Zos didn't seem to care) is not good enough anymore.
9 -
Lapin_Logic✭✭✭✭✭PrincessOfThieves wrote: »Lapin_Logic wrote: »
I have Muscular Dystrophy and Tendonitis, My Sorc with 'My Rotation' feels fine without any changes, my Necro (in the same gear) never performed well for me just as they did on live, but I likely need to run different skills or buffs on the necro (and I hate confused Blast Bones).
Maybe you need to check your CP or buffs to up your damage.
Can you post parses for comparison? From what I've seen so far, sorcs were hit the hardest.
I don't really "Parse" I more just go into situations and try content, like 1/2 the loop of skyreach mob pack, the Werewolf world boss in Eastmarch, Banished Smells 1 full run.
Usually once it goes live Me (Sorc, NMA, VMA lightning, Illambris, Mothers sorrow) and my partner (Buff Healer warden, Spauldr, SPC,) go into nWhite Gold Tower, the benchmark is Planar inhibitor before it goes blue and Molag Kena to 35% on her first shield drop, it's not my best toon, it's just a comfy toon because of it'srange, Deadly strike stamplar is by biggest damage dealer.1 -
Lapin_Logic✭✭✭✭✭Aardappelboom wrote: »Planesbreaker is incredibly difficult within the vacuum of current DPS. Now take away ~20k from everyone in the raid. Explain to me how we're supposed to "get that back"? Especially on mobile fights like Bahsei where having longer DoT duration and fewer ticks is actually directly detrimental to us.
I went ahead and quoted you even though not all of my post is related to your comment. Now I kind of fancy my high APM dots an hots gameplay and I definitely see that a few of these changes having a big (for me more or less negative) impact, but apart from all that and just to think a bit out of the box here, I do wonder about a few things, maybe someone can clarify based on testing since I can't get on PTS.- Everyone is saying all classes are effectively destroyed, but if all classes are destroyed, some more, others less, doesn't that basically level the playing field in the grander scheme of things?
- Also when everyone's DPS is going down, weaving has a lower impact, and everyone use longer DOTS and spams their spammable, which in turn again has impact on DPS. Doesn't that mean ceiling and floor are effectively closer together.
- then finally, what if, hypothetically, some content was scaled back a bit to compensate for the DPS loss, wouldn't that make it accessible again?
Now I'm not saying anything about the quality of these changes, I still think that no one was really asking for these changes and there were other options to go at it that didn't involve a rescaling of difficulty but I'm wondering objectively if they really missed the mark on closing the gap, as I see it, it'll probably turn out that they succeed in what they wanted to do.
I'm not gonna take the odd player that only uses light attacks into account here, I've been playing for 3 years on Xbox and I haven't met that guy/girl just yet, most beginners have at least a notion of using skills.
So far
1. Yes with a couple of outliers, both Nefas and Deltia got a 90k + Parse (Deltia did more on PTS with his crafted Average build Templar than live on his "Shiny gear" Templar)
Deltia kept almost like live while Nefas (DK) ran a million DoTs and Dawnbreaker.
Deltia had a bad time with Warden, I think it needs raising a bit or players need to find this patches Secret Sauce.
2. Yes Deltia kind of said as much, especially on Templar where it's now a jab per GCD
3. I'm kind of expecting that myself, and mobs don't mind being nerfed0 -
fiender66✭✭✭✭I've done it. Tested PTS even before reading the notes, on more than one char and for a reasonable time.
Changes are awful for a PVE gamer like me. They detract heavily from the fun I had with this game.
This is my opinion.5 -
PrincessOfThieves✭✭✭✭✭
✭Lapin_Logic wrote: »PrincessOfThieves wrote: »Lapin_Logic wrote: »
I have Muscular Dystrophy and Tendonitis, My Sorc with 'My Rotation' feels fine without any changes, my Necro (in the same gear) never performed well for me just as they did on live, but I likely need to run different skills or buffs on the necro (and I hate confused Blast Bones).
Maybe you need to check your CP or buffs to up your damage.
Can you post parses for comparison? From what I've seen so far, sorcs were hit the hardest.
I don't really "Parse" I more just go into situations and try content, like 1/2 the loop of skyreach mob pack, the Werewolf world boss in Eastmarch, Banished Smells 1 full run.
Usually once it goes live Me (Sorc, NMA, VMA lightning, Illambris, Mothers sorrow) and my partner (Buff Healer warden, Spauldr, SPC,) go into nWhite Gold Tower, the benchmark is Planar inhibitor before it goes blue and Molag Kena to 35% on her first shield drop, it's not my best toon, it's just a comfy toon because of it'srange, Deadly strike stamplar is by biggest damage dealer.
Well, first of all, props for testing it.
However, people who are against these changes are not concerned about normal content, especially older content. Of course it will be beatable, it's meant to be cleared by casual players.
The problem is that they're building veteran content around highest dps possible while nerfing overall dps. It's like their combat team and dungeon team do not communicate at all. Do you think that trials will be more accessible if this patch goes live? ZOS claims that that is their goal, but so far we only see everyone losing dps.
Maybe losing 20-30% dps will be manageable for endgame groups. But it won't make these trials more accessible for people like you. High damage has its advantages, for example, you can invite newbies and even if they underperform, you'd still do enough damage as a group. With lower overall damage everyone would have to do their best with no wiggle room for less experienced players.
Another thing is that dps nerfs disproportionately affect weaker players. Losing 30k dps when you're already at 130k sucks, but it might be not critical (even that requires testing in new trial hms but we need to wait and see). But if you do 50-60k and lose 30% of your damage overnight, it means that you cannot participate in trial runs anymore, with no way of moving forward. If you think that it will force people to lower trial requirements, I'm sorry, but you're wrong. Doing trials with low dps is not a great experience (and not even feasible in case of the new trials) and most people would rather disband the group rather that invite 40k dps dds to their vRG hm prog.10 -
fizl101✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭OP please remember that the entire playerbase doesn't play on PC.
I'm lucky enough to own a gaming PC even though I prefer to play on ESO on console, so I have been able to at least try some parses on a template character. Not everyone has that luxury, so they can only go on what has been written.
@ZOS_GinaBruno - for those who can't access PTS, could some of the more visual changes such as animation changes be possibly added to patch notes as video snippets or similar so that people don't have to rely on other players creating videos? Maybe some of the nice markings and skins too that are often awarded for dungeons and trials and so on
Soupy twist1 -
FantasticFreddie✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I played on pts. Didn't like it.
Still hate the patch, am beyond frustrated with the total lack of direction and communication from the dev team, that has the absolute audacity to complain about our lack of trust as if they haven't spent the last two years making changes and then reverting them 3 months later.
4 -
wolfie1.0.✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Lapin_Logic wrote: »I have seen many rants but very little footage of the PTS saying "It's Gamebreaking"
If you said nothing against Dark Convergenc, Plaguebreak or Oakensoul during their PTS.
If you released Build videos saying "it's Ya Boi with an awesome new build"
If you ran a golded out version of these builds.
Then it is difficult for me to think you have "Game Balance" in mind when these changes literally make every class 90% balanced instead of the 20% and constant "BIS/best class/Meta change" we have had for over 4 years.
The "Rock, Paper, scissors" formula doesn't work when power creep and layers of spaghetti have turned the 'Paper' into a single square of wet toilet paper yet the 'Rock' is now a 40 tonne Granite slab
When sets and builds are "Banned from tournaments" then "Balance" is an illusion that everyone is gaslit to accept.
The tests for Balance are "Is content Achievable" and "in PVP is the playing field equal", Yes damage is going down but the new changes will happen (for server and accesibility reasons, i.e slower ticking DoT's and HoT's, lower requirement to hit every weave to come still come close-ish to a veteran player) This is our opportunity as a community to actually help Balance the game for the future so offer Constructive feedback from experience with that in mind.
It's hard to show soul crushing on in game footage.
If you can convince me that a player I fight in cyrodill or bgs will kindly stand still for 20 second dots to tick off so I can do my damage please enlighten me.
If you can tell me how to convince players in vet content that parses don't matter anymore to complete trials. Please do.
My suggestion OP. Go try to play eso vet hm content on the pts. With a splints on both hands no addons and default keybinds and tell me how well you dps.
As for content changes, what changes were made? There have not been any on the pts. There may be some at some point but nothing indicates there will be for at least another 3 months.8 -
robpr✭✭✭✭✭
✭FantasticFreddie wrote: »[snip]
KA instances are always bad. If you don't go for a speedrun, the fps drop after being there over an hour will kill your healers output. So I feel double sorry for people that already struggle with that cursed place. Same story with Nahvi portal phase in SS HM.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on July 15, 2022 4:47PM6