Please Play the PTS before complaining

Lapin_Logic · July 2022

I have seen many rants but very little footage of the PTS saying "It's Gamebreaking"

If you said nothing against Dark Convergenc, Plaguebreak or Oakensoul during their PTS.
If you released Build videos saying "it's Ya Boi with an awesome new build"
If you ran a golded out version of these builds.

Then it is difficult for me to think you have "Game Balance" in mind when these changes literally make every class 90% balanced instead of the 20% and constant "BIS/best class/Meta change" we have had for over 4 years.

The "Rock, Paper, scissors" formula doesn't work when power creep and layers of spaghetti have turned the 'Paper' into a single square of wet toilet paper yet the 'Rock' is now a 40 tonne Granite slab

When sets and builds are "Banned from tournaments" then "Balance" is an illusion that everyone is gaslit to accept.

The tests for Balance are "Is content Achievable" and "in PVP is the playing field equal", Yes damage is going down but the new changes will happen (for server and accesibility reasons, i.e slower ticking DoT's and HoT's, lower requirement to hit every weave to come still come close-ish to a veteran player) This is our opportunity as a community to actually help Balance the game for the future so offer Constructive feedback from experience with that in mind.

Pevey · July 2022

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

The tests for Balance are "Is content Achievable" and "in PVP is the playing field equal", Yes damage is going down but the new changes will happen (for server and accesibility reasons, i.e slower ticking DoT's and HoT's, lower requirement to hit every weave to come still come close-ish to a veteran player) This is our opportunity as a community to actually help Balance the game for the future so offer Constructive feedback from experience with that in mind.

I think you have good intentions, and I think ppl like xynode have good intentions, but you are unintentionally misleading ppl into thinking these changes will not negatively affect them.

Zos may have intended these changes to make content more accessible, but that is NOT what they achieved.

Zos may have intended these changes to make weaving less important, but that is NOT what they achieved.

Everyone sees their damage go down on PTS. Everyone. For an elite raider, that may mean vet trials are completed a little bit more slowly and with more effort. For mid-tier players, it will be the difference between getting that monster helm or not, or getting that VMA clear or not. The difference will be felt MUCH more keenly by exactly the players ZOS says they are trying to help.

In terms of LA weaving, the new BiS that falls out from all these changes is relequen+kinras+vma inferno, ALL OF WHICH REQUIRE PERFECT WEAVING. Zos has accomplished the opposite of what they set out to do. There is a really good post now with some numbers showing that by X_K.

Look past what ZOS is telling you they are trying to do and see what they actually did.

Cuddlypuff · July 2022

OP seems to be talking about PVP. Last few years of PVP has been about set identity and classes are merely a delivery mechanism for said sets. Those 3 sets that OP mentioned were desperate attempts to deal with the tank meta that has practically killed Cyrodiil for good. However, I'm struggling to understand the point, if any, that OP was trying to make here.

Skjaldbjorn · July 2022

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

Then it is difficult for me to think you have "Game Balance" in mind when these changes literally make every class 90% balanced instead of the 20% and constant "BIS/best class/Meta change" we have had for over 4 years.

Except..they don't. Warden DPS got absolutely dumpstered. Sorcs, too. Instead of a few specific specs being in the can like the current live patch, two whole classes were put there. DPS has NEVER been more balanced, competitive and tight from top to bottom as it is on live this moment.

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

The tests for Balance are "Is content Achievable" and "in PVP is the playing field equal", Yes damage is going down but the new changes will happen (for server and accesibility reasons, i.e slower ticking DoT's and HoT's, lower requirement to hit every weave to come still come close-ish to a veteran player) This is our opportunity as a community to actually help Balance the game for the future so offer Constructive feedback from experience with that in mind.

Planesbreaker is incredibly difficult within the vacuum of current DPS. Now take away ~20k from everyone in the raid. Explain to me how we're supposed to "get that back"? Especially on mobile fights like Bahsei where having longer DoT duration and fewer ticks is actually directly detrimental to us.

Lapin_Logic · July 2022

Pevey wrote: »

I think you have good intentions, and I think ppl like xynode have good intentions, but you are unintentionally misleading ppl into thinking these changes will not negatively affect them.

Zos may have intended these changes to make content more accessible, but that is NOT what they achieved.

Zos may have intended these changes to make weaving less important, but that is NOT what they achieved.

Everyone sees their damage go down on PTS. Everyone. For an elite raider, that may mean vet trials are completed a little bit more slowly and with more effort. For mid-tier players, it will be the difference between getting that monster helm or not, or getting that VMA clear or not. The difference will be felt MUCH more keenly by exactly the players ZOS says they are trying to help.

In terms of LA weaving, the new BiS that falls out from all these changes is relequen+kinras+vma inferno, ALL OF WHICH REQUIRE PERFECT WEAVING. Zos has accomplished the opposite of what they set out to do. There is a really good post now with some numbers showing that by X_K.

Look past what ZOS is telling you they are trying to do and see what they actually did.

Pretty sure I said the changes will affect everyone, I am perfectly fine with doing the same damage as everyone else, I am also fine if that means doing slightly less damage.

"End game raiders" will still have sets and buffs that the majority won't have or in the availability to optimise their team so they will obviously do higher damage (I think this is why the Patch notes have some new gear sets making some of these buffs more obtainable) than an amateur player

if buff/Dot management is going down then by default it is more accessible to the lower end as management is easier

if LA damage is going down then (unless you decided to wear Relequen) missing a LA or 2 is less of a damage hit, there is still a huge importance on getting a LA off to proc your glyph/poison, but if you are so inclined you do not even have to "Weave" it

This is the First week of the PTS, so if "Content is unplayable" they will very easily tweak sliders on Boss Health/damage just like they did when One Tamriel hit, but they Need to know where that baseline is before they can do it, and they can only get that info from the community going on there and providing the figures and clear times.

Do remember that before the Public get access to the "Public" test server that ZOS has their internal team running trials and dungeons in a range of gear.

I am not saying that it will be painless and sunshine, I am saying it's going to be fairer, and fair is never painless, but we can ease the sting and remove the 3 months wait for a "Monster and mob damage pass" if we do it now

Pevey · July 2022

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

Do remember that before the Public get access to the "Public" test server that ZOS has their internal team running trials and dungeons in a range of gear.

If you think any test team at ZOS is doing SS or PB or even just regular vet of those trials, I don't think we can have a conversation based on reason.

Lapin_Logic · July 2022

Cuddlypuff wrote: »

OP seems to be talking about PVP. Last few years of PVP has been about set identity and classes are merely a delivery mechanism for said sets. Those 3 sets that OP mentioned were desperate attempts to deal with the tank meta that has practically killed Cyrodiil for good. However, I'm struggling to understand the point, if any, that OP was trying to make here.

I was more referring to the game holistically, Oakensoul was the straw that broke the game, Nefas joked about 16 storm atro's on the field at once in a trial and everyone who has been in Cyro or IC recently has seen the "Casual Mobile game" levels of combat where folks have Ulti's up 24/7.

"Tanks" don't kill anyone, but the "Tank meta" however is a totally different thing where certain builds can get % mitigations plus armor cap, plus Impen, plus high health because resources don't mean anything in Cyrodiil recently, it's a Jenga tower, but the change to Broakensoul and IronBlood and the new sets that "Target resource generation" and Buff removal sets give me hope that the combat team now realise "What" makes it possible for people to run the "Tank meta" so easily

As for the point I wanted to make, it was mainly that players should help provide the Stats that ZOS will need to balance Monsters and buffs instead of it ending on live as the only way for them to get the data and the players having 3 months of bad times instead of players engaging in Player Vs Forum without even booting it, or booting it, killing a mudcrab and then stating the obvious that "my damage went down".

Skjaldbjorn · July 2022

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

Cuddlypuff wrote: »

OP seems to be talking about PVP. Last few years of PVP has been about set identity and classes are merely a delivery mechanism for said sets. Those 3 sets that OP mentioned were desperate attempts to deal with the tank meta that has practically killed Cyrodiil for good. However, I'm struggling to understand the point, if any, that OP was trying to make here.

I was more referring to the game holistically, Oakensoul was the straw that broke the game, Nefas joked about 16 storm atro's on the field at once in a trial and everyone who has been in Cyro or IC recently has seen the "Casual Mobile game" levels of combat where folks have Ulti's up 24/7.

"Tanks" don't kill anyone, but the "Tank meta" however is a totally different thing where certain builds can get % mitigations plus armor cap, plus Impen, plus high health because resources don't mean anything in Cyrodiil recently, it's a Jenga tower, but the change to Broakensoul and IronBlood and the new sets that "Target resource generation" and Buff removal sets give me hope that the combat team now realise "What" makes it possible for people to run the "Tank meta" so easily

As for the point I wanted to make, it was mainly that players should help provide the Stats that ZOS will need to balance Monsters and buffs instead of it ending on live as the only way for them to get the data and the players having 3 months of bad times instead of players engaging in Player Vs Forum without even booting it, or booting it, killing a mudcrab and then stating the obvious that "my damage went down".

No one should be expected to push a PB or GS on the PTS, where it is meaningless, just to cater to sweeping balance changes that were more bad ideas than good to start with.

Lapin_Logic · July 2022

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Planesbreaker is incredibly difficult within the vacuum of current DPS. Now take away ~20k from everyone in the raid. Explain to me how we're supposed to "get that back"? Especially on mobile fights like Bahsei

Judging on the games changes since Beta, You aren't, but the content will instead be rebalanced to accommodate, much as it did in 1T or when health changed from a thousand being a player health bar to tens of thousands being a player health bar.

Nothing is set in stone, the game is constantly changing and the content is always engineered to be completable and verified as completable by the internal trials run team.

Skjaldbjorn · July 2022

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Planesbreaker is incredibly difficult within the vacuum of current DPS. Now take away ~20k from everyone in the raid. Explain to me how we're supposed to "get that back"? Especially on mobile fights like Bahsei

Judging on the games changes since Beta, You aren't, but the content will instead be rebalanced to accommodate, much as it did in 1T or when health changed from a thousand being a player health bar to tens of thousands being a player health bar.

Nothing is set in stone, the game is constantly changing and the content is always engineered to be completable and verified as completable by the internal trials run team.

So, where's that rebalance? Why are we sitting here with our thumbs up our asses for 3-6 months to get an achievement we've been progging this entire time? If they want to ensure content is achieveable, hire a team of talented players to push content in their patches and pay them to do so.

Lapin_Logic · July 2022

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

No one should be expected to push a PB or GS on the PTS, where it is meaningless, just to cater to sweeping balance changes that were more bad ideas than good to start with.

They used to, It became a meme where Hodor would get real sweaty on the PTS just so that before most people had even finished downloading the patch Hodor was posting "World First XXXXXX completion" on the forum.

Skjaldbjorn · July 2022

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

No one should be expected to push a PB or GS on the PTS, where it is meaningless, just to cater to sweeping balance changes that were more bad ideas than good to start with.

They used to, It became a meme where Hodor would get real sweaty on the PTS just so that before most people had even finished downloading the patch Hodor was posting "World First XXXXXX completion" on the forum.

They still do. A group did that and got the trifecta for DSR this patch. Why would they go do it again now just to support Zos' insane balance sweeps? That serves them not at all. They hard push new trials to be world first, not to cater to Zos' balance team.

Mr_Stach · July 2022

I and several other Wardens in the community gave constructive feedback last PTS Cycle for Warden and Zos rewarded that was essentially reshuffling Arctic Blast so it's kinda different but in the same spot. Winter's Revenge was Overnerfed, now doing less damage than Deadly Cloak, Warden's main DPS passive, Advanced Species, was gutted, they completely changed the established tempo everyone has had engrained in their Brains for the last 5 years with Shulks.

Warden is somehow worse across the board than it was last patch in both pve and pvp.

There's testing of course that needs to be done and I've done some and our community has as well, but it's not looking good.

There are some things that you can look at and just see without any testing that it's not going to shake out well. A lot of these changes are among them and more testing will cement that.

Skjaldbjorn · July 2022

Mr_Stach wrote: »

I and several other Wardens in the community gave constructive feedback last PTS Cycle for Warden and Zos rewarded that was essentially reshuffling Arctic Blast so it's kinda different but in the same spot. Winter's Revenge was Overnerfed, now doing less damage than Deadly Cloak, Warden's main DPS passive, Advanced Species, was gutted, they completely changed the established tempo everyone has had engrained in their Brains for the last 5 years with Shulks.

Warden is somehow worse across the board than it was last patch in both pve and pvp.

There's testing of course that needs to be done and I've done some and our community has as well, but it's not looking good.

There are some things that you can look at and just see without any testing that it's not going to shake out well. A lot of these changes are among them and more testing will cement that.

Nobody needs to test to know a flat 6-12% damage nerf to a class and ALL of their damage is a god awful idea, and whoever thought of it should be fired immediately.

DeathStalker · July 2022

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

I have seen many rants but very little footage of the PTS saying "It's Gamebreaking"

If you said nothing against Dark Convergenc, Plaguebreak or Oakensoul during their PTS.
If you released Build videos saying "it's Ya Boi with an awesome new build"
If you ran a golded out version of these builds.

Then it is difficult for me to think you have "Game Balance" in mind when these changes literally make every class 90% balanced instead of the 20% and constant "BIS/best class/Meta change" we have had for over 4 years.

The "Rock, Paper, scissors" formula doesn't work when power creep and layers of spaghetti have turned the 'Paper' into a single square of wet toilet paper yet the 'Rock' is now a 40 tonne Granite slab

When sets and builds are "Banned from tournaments" then "Balance" is an illusion that everyone is gaslit to accept.

The tests for Balance are "Is content Achievable" and "in PVP is the playing field equal", Yes damage is going down but the new changes will happen (for server and accesibility reasons, i.e slower ticking DoT's and HoT's, lower requirement to hit every weave to come still come close-ish to a veteran player) This is our opportunity as a community to actually help Balance the game for the future so offer Constructive feedback from experience with that in mind.

[snip] I'm supposed to be one of the targets of the benefit of all this. I don't pvp, trials, or 4 man dungeons. I do most things solo including public dungeons and most WB. I stay between 20-25k dps on my best guys. I don't get LA weaving, or animation canceling, and don't have end-game gear. I normally run things like Hundgings rage of Mothers sorrow, sets like that I can craft or get overland. Oakensoul was a godsend with the severe Arthritis in my hands and wrists. I posted my combat feedback in the Combat balance changes feedback thread( it's on page 4, look for my name ).

The damage this patch will do to me is fatal. On my best guy, I am down to 12.5k to 15k dps. The dots while lasting longer barely damage anything cause they are so weak. I had my hopes so high that a player like me might finally get heard and be able to do more content. Because My hands hurt so bad I'm locked out of so many MMOs. But with this patch, ESO said people like me would get lifted up. I jumped on PTS the first chance I could and found myself almost in tears when I saw how low my numbers had fallen. Not only had they not lifted people like me up, [snip]

[edited for baiting]

starkerealm · July 2022

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

I have seen many rants but very little footage of the PTS saying "It's Gamebreaking"

Okay. I did. It feels terrible. It's not, "gamebreaking," but it also isn't fun. It sucks. It sucks in a way that you really need to experience to understand.

Amottica · July 2022

I just posted in a thread (poll) that I would be more interested in seeing how many hours of testing this current load has been done by those who do not like the PTS patch notes. I fully expect Zenimax can tell the difference between complaints compared to comments based on actual testing as it would include actual information that shows they put some effort into seeing how the changes actually work.

Mr_Stach · July 2022

I dunno some of these Warden Changes going live might break the game for me. Just like every other patch.

Skjaldbjorn · July 2022

DeathStalker wrote: »

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

I have seen many rants but very little footage of the PTS saying "It's Gamebreaking"

If you said nothing against Dark Convergenc, Plaguebreak or Oakensoul during their PTS.
If you released Build videos saying "it's Ya Boi with an awesome new build"
If you ran a golded out version of these builds.

Then it is difficult for me to think you have "Game Balance" in mind when these changes literally make every class 90% balanced instead of the 20% and constant "BIS/best class/Meta change" we have had for over 4 years.

The "Rock, Paper, scissors" formula doesn't work when power creep and layers of spaghetti have turned the 'Paper' into a single square of wet toilet paper yet the 'Rock' is now a 40 tonne Granite slab

When sets and builds are "Banned from tournaments" then "Balance" is an illusion that everyone is gaslit to accept.

The tests for Balance are "Is content Achievable" and "in PVP is the playing field equal", Yes damage is going down but the new changes will happen (for server and accesibility reasons, i.e slower ticking DoT's and HoT's, lower requirement to hit every weave to come still come close-ish to a veteran player) This is our opportunity as a community to actually help Balance the game for the future so offer Constructive feedback from experience with that in mind.

[snip] I'm supposed to be one of the targets of the benefit of all this. I don't pvp, trials, or 4 man dungeons. I do most things solo including public dungeons and most WB. I stay between 20-25k dps on my best guys. I don't get LA weaving, or animation canceling, and don't have end-game gear. I normally run things like Hundgings rage of Mothers sorrow, sets like that I can craft or get overland. Oakensoul was a godsend with the severe Arthritis in my hands and wrists. I posted my combat feedback in the Combat balance changes feedback thread( it's on page 4, look for my name ).

The damage this patch will do to me is fatal. On my best guy, I am down to 12.5k to 15k dps. The dots while lasting longer barely damage anything cause they are so weak. I had my hopes so high that a player like me might finally get heard and be able to do more content. Because My hands hurt so bad I'm locked out of so many MMOs. But with this patch, ESO said people like me would get lifted up. I jumped on PTS the first chance I could and found myself almost in tears when I saw how low my numbers had fallen. Not only had they not lifted people like me up, [snip]

I have nerve damage in my mouse hand. It took me six months to re-learn to use a mouse. Between that and carpal tunnel, I feel you. I'm sorry you're struggling with that, and I am sorry Zos is incapable of seeing the damage they're doing.

DairyCat · July 2022

Pevey wrote: »

Zos may have intended these changes to make content more accessible, but that is NOT what they achieved.

Zos may have intended these changes to make weaving less important, but that is NOT what they achieved.

They didn't say either of those things. Weaving change was just intended as a pure DPS nerf. They never said they expected the change to make people who weaved stop weaving.

The DOT/HOT change was intended to make rotations more manageable for people struggling to keep 100% uptime or for people who wanted to watch the timers less and actually watch the mechanics around them.

DeathStalker · July 2022

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

I have nerve damage in my mouse hand. It took me six months to re-learn to use a mouse. Between that and carpal tunnel, I feel you. I'm sorry you're struggling with that, and I am sorry Zos is incapable of seeing the damage they're doing.

I've never gotten my hopes up before. I should have known better. After Oakensoul, I thought maybe this time they really see people like me. Guess I learned what getting my hopes up in ESO will get me. Thank you for the kind words.

Mr_Stach · July 2022

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

DeathStalker wrote: »

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

I have seen many rants but very little footage of the PTS saying "It's Gamebreaking"

If you said nothing against Dark Convergenc, Plaguebreak or Oakensoul during their PTS.
If you released Build videos saying "it's Ya Boi with an awesome new build"
If you ran a golded out version of these builds.

Then it is difficult for me to think you have "Game Balance" in mind when these changes literally make every class 90% balanced instead of the 20% and constant "BIS/best class/Meta change" we have had for over 4 years.

The "Rock, Paper, scissors" formula doesn't work when power creep and layers of spaghetti have turned the 'Paper' into a single square of wet toilet paper yet the 'Rock' is now a 40 tonne Granite slab

When sets and builds are "Banned from tournaments" then "Balance" is an illusion that everyone is gaslit to accept.

The tests for Balance are "Is content Achievable" and "in PVP is the playing field equal", Yes damage is going down but the new changes will happen (for server and accesibility reasons, i.e slower ticking DoT's and HoT's, lower requirement to hit every weave to come still come close-ish to a veteran player) This is our opportunity as a community to actually help Balance the game for the future so offer Constructive feedback from experience with that in mind.

With all due respect, this post is as disingenuous as a tweet I read recently from an ESO dev right before the PTS went live with this garbage patch. I'm supposed to be one of the targets of the benefit of all this. I don't pvp, trials, or 4 man dungeons. I do most things solo including public dungeons and most WB. I stay between 20-25k dps on my best guys. I don't get LA weaving, or animation canceling, and don't have end-game gear. I normally run things like Hundgings rage of Mothers sorrow, sets like that I can craft or get overland. Oakensoul was a godsend with the severe Arthritis in my hands and wrists. I posted my combat feedback in the Combat balance changes feedback thread( it's on page 4, look for my name ).

The damage this patch will do to me is fatal. On my best guy, I am down to 12.5k to 15k dps. The dots while lasting longer barely damage anything cause they are so weak. I had my hopes so high that a player like me might finally get heard and be able to do more content. Because My hands hurt so bad I'm locked out of so many MMOs. But with this patch, ESO said people like me would get lifted up. I jumped on PTS the first chance I could and found myself almost in tears when I saw how low my numbers had fallen. Not only had they not lifted people like me up, but they had spit in my face with a false lying promise they had no intention of keeping. People like me with terrible hands and wrists are just pissed on and forgotten again. Posts like this feed into it. It feeds into the lies and false promises they made and had no intention of delivering on. I'm going to stop writing now before I say something that gets me banned. Make no mistake, this post makes me as sick as their lies about looking to help out people like me.

I have nerve damage in my mouse hand. It took me six months to re-learn to use a mouse. Between that and carpal tunnel, I feel you. I'm sorry you're struggling with that, and I am sorry Zos is incapable of seeing the damage they're doing.

Yeah my mouse hand is shot. My Ulnar Nerve is damaged, not quite to the point of Carpal Tunnel, but it still sucks.

starkerealm · July 2022

Amottica wrote: »

I just posted in a thread (poll) that I would be more interested in seeing how many hours of testing this current load has been done by those who do not like the PTS patch notes. I fully expect Zenimax can tell the difference between complaints compared to comments based on actual testing as it would include actual information that shows they put some effort into seeing how the changes actually work.

The problem with this logic is, it's trying to gatekeep: "In order to have a valid opinion, you must have played 5 hours on the PTS."

Now, I"m not sure how long I've been on the PTS with the patch, but I'm pretty sure it's under two hours, and that's important.

Why? Because I bounced off hard.

I've been here since 2014. I've got over 2400 hours on my main alone. (Probably closer to 3k hours.) I've been through all the wonky balance changes in that time. The PTS cycles where things really shouldn't have been there, but they were.

It took me about 5 minutes with the patch to bounce off, go, "this is not fun." I stuck it out for time after that, tested some other things to see if it was just a bad impression. Thing about this is, I have never bounced off ESO like this. Never in the last 8 years.

Now, why is this more valid than the guy who spent 5 hours meticulously parsing over and over again to meet your criteria?

Because if this goes live, real players are going to bounce off. They don't care that you think they didn't give the game a fair shake. They don't care if you think it gets good 100h in. All they know is, they have a limited amount of time on the earth, and this game was not fun for them, so they left.

This is also relevant for players who don't frequent the forums, or even know this is coming down the pipe. If nothing changes, in six weeks, they'll log in, find that combat is less than half the speed it used to be for then, while enemies are hitting just as hard as ever. Now, some will be fine with that, some won't.

Trying to gatekeep the feedback, and this is a warning for ZOS as well, trying to gatekeep against the players who immediately bounce off the PTS, is a terrible mistake. Because when it's not the PTS, when it hits the live servers, players will go, "this feels bad," leave, and never come back.

These kinds of punitive balance changes can easily become festering wounds for an MMO's reputation.

Balance changes like this can kill MMOs. That's not hyperbole. It's not immediate, and by the time the full scope of the damage has been realized, it's far too late.

So, yeah, it's fair to say, "you should try it out." However saying, "you need to spend X amount of time testing or it's not valid," is an attempt to filter the results for the most favorable opinions, and it is a fatal mistake.

This patch sucks, and if it goes live, the consequences will be dire.

Skjaldbjorn · July 2022

starkerealm wrote: »

These kinds of punitive balance changes can easily become festering wounds for an MMO's reputation.

Balance changes like this can kill MMOs. That's not hyperbole. It's not immediate, and by the time the full scope of the damage has been realized, it's far too late.

So, yeah, it's fair to say, "you should try it out." However saying, "you need to spend X amount of time testing or it's not valid," is an attempt to filter the results for the most favorable opinions, and it is a fatal mistake.

This patch sucks, and if it goes live, the consequences will be dire.

This is literally what happened to New World. It was 1-2 patches of underwhelming, depressing "solutions" and changes that absolutely crushed the game. From 410k average players at release to less than 13k now.

This is the kind of collapse MMOs can easily have, and it's often due to ludicrous, terribly designed changes just like these. AGS listened to the community to a point, but refused to back off bad ideas until it was far, far too late.

MetallicMonk · July 2022

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

This is literally what happened to New World. It was 1-2 patches of underwhelming, depressing "solutions" and changes that absolutely crushed the game. From 410k average players at release to less than 13k now.

This is the kind of collapse MMOs can easily have, and it's often due to ludicrous, terribly designed changes just like these. AGS listened to the community to a point, but refused to back off bad ideas until it was far, far too late.

and the players who bend over backwards defending or trying to find a reason behind the out of touch companies decisions, not even realizing they're actively contributing to the butchering and downfall of the game they care about

starkerealm · July 2022

MetallicMonk wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

This is literally what happened to New World. It was 1-2 patches of underwhelming, depressing "solutions" and changes that absolutely crushed the game. From 410k average players at release to less than 13k now.

This is the kind of collapse MMOs can easily have, and it's often due to ludicrous, terribly designed changes just like these. AGS listened to the community to a point, but refused to back off bad ideas until it was far, far too late.

and the players who bend over backwards defending or trying to find a reason behind the out of touch companies decisions, not even realizing they're actively contributing to the butchering and downfall of the game they care about

And thus we find ourselves in this thread being told, "your opinion isn't valid if you dislike this, unless you've signed these forms in triplicate."

Amottica · July 2022

Pevey wrote: »

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

The tests for Balance are "Is content Achievable" and "in PVP is the playing field equal", Yes damage is going down but the new changes will happen (for server and accesibility reasons, i.e slower ticking DoT's and HoT's, lower requirement to hit every weave to come still come close-ish to a veteran player) This is our opportunity as a community to actually help Balance the game for the future so offer Constructive feedback from experience with that in mind.

I think you have good intentions, and I think ppl like xynode have good intentions, but you are unintentionally misleading ppl into thinking these changes will not negatively affect them.

Zos may have intended these changes to make content more accessible, but that is NOT what they achieved.

Zos may have intended these changes to make weaving less important, but that is NOT what they achieved.

Everyone sees their damage go down on PTS. Everyone. For an elite raider, that may mean vet trials are completed a little bit more slowly and with more effort. For mid-tier players, it will be the difference between getting that monster helm or not, or getting that VMA clear or not. The difference will be felt MUCH more keenly by exactly the players ZOS says they are trying to help.

In terms of LA weaving, the new BiS that falls out from all these changes is relequen+kinras+vma inferno, ALL OF WHICH REQUIRE PERFECT WEAVING. Zos has accomplished the opposite of what they set out to do. There is a really good post now with some numbers showing that by X_K.

Look past what ZOS is telling you they are trying to do and see what they actually did.

@Pevey

Gilliam clearly stated their intention was to reduce the damage potential from weaving. If they are reducing the amount of damage done with weaving, and especially what LA weaving provides, then they are in fact making weaving less important.

Also, I may be a noob as I have only been around ESO a little more than a year, but the current combat design on the Live servers requires a "PERFECT" LA weave to get the most damage whereas the PTS change are much more forgiving on timing.
Even with the use of Relequen, Kinras, or the vMA inferno staff the requirements for PERFECT delivery of weaving to obtain optimal and near-optimal DPS is eliminated. This is all on paper at least as I have not had the time to download the PTS ujpdate.

It would be interesting to hear about players experience testing these changes on the PTS.

Skjaldbjorn · July 2022

Amottica wrote: »

Pevey wrote: »

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

The tests for Balance are "Is content Achievable" and "in PVP is the playing field equal", Yes damage is going down but the new changes will happen (for server and accesibility reasons, i.e slower ticking DoT's and HoT's, lower requirement to hit every weave to come still come close-ish to a veteran player) This is our opportunity as a community to actually help Balance the game for the future so offer Constructive feedback from experience with that in mind.

I think you have good intentions, and I think ppl like xynode have good intentions, but you are unintentionally misleading ppl into thinking these changes will not negatively affect them.

Zos may have intended these changes to make content more accessible, but that is NOT what they achieved.

Zos may have intended these changes to make weaving less important, but that is NOT what they achieved.

Everyone sees their damage go down on PTS. Everyone. For an elite raider, that may mean vet trials are completed a little bit more slowly and with more effort. For mid-tier players, it will be the difference between getting that monster helm or not, or getting that VMA clear or not. The difference will be felt MUCH more keenly by exactly the players ZOS says they are trying to help.

In terms of LA weaving, the new BiS that falls out from all these changes is relequen+kinras+vma inferno, ALL OF WHICH REQUIRE PERFECT WEAVING. Zos has accomplished the opposite of what they set out to do. There is a really good post now with some numbers showing that by X_K.

Look past what ZOS is telling you they are trying to do and see what they actually did.

@Pevey

Gilliam clearly stated their intention was to reduce the damage potential from weaving. If they are reducing the amount of damage done with weaving, and especially what LA weaving provides, then they are in fact making weaving less important.

Also, I may be a noob as I have only been around ESO a little more than a year, but the current combat design on the Live servers requires a "PERFECT" LA weave to get the most damage whereas the PTS change are much more forgiving on timing.
Even with the use of Relequen, Kinras, or the vMA inferno staff the requirements for PERFECT delivery of weaving to obtain optimal and near-optimal DPS is eliminated. This is all on paper at least as I have not had the time to download the PTS ujpdate.

It would be interesting to hear about players experience testing these changes on the PTS.

The changes to LA damage are far and away the least offensive, least ludicrous change in this clown fiesta they call patch notes. I'd smile and take that change all day, no problem.

Mr_Stach · July 2022

I think it's important to have both sides of the equation, whether someone dislikes or likes the patch notes. I think overall the patch notes are a Net-Loss for the people so far.

The biggest positive for me since I play Warden almost exclusively is Wings giving Snare Immunity, that's pretty huge. But it's pretty overwhelmed by the rest of the really bad changes for Warden.

starkerealm · July 2022

Pevey wrote: »

I think you have good intentions, and I think ppl like xynode have good intentions, but you are unintentionally misleading ppl into thinking these changes will not negatively affect them.

Can confirm: Xy has good intentions. I haven't spoken to him about this, and he's coming to it with his normal outlook, which is that the people complaining about this are uninformed crybabies. (Hey, he's the one with a baby's cry on his soundboard.)

Problem is, I honestly don't think he sees how damaging this is to low end players. How utterly demoralizing it is for the players who were progging before this started who are now looking at ZOS taking away all of that in some misguided spat with the top handful of players who can trivialize everything.

Pevey wrote: »

Zos may have intended these changes to make content more accessible, but that is NOT what they achieved.

Again, likely the case, but, holy snot, did they miss the mark on this one.

NanoTechnicianHQ · July 2022

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

I have seen many rants but very little footage of the PTS saying "It's Gamebreaking"
If you said nothing against Dark Convergenc, Plaguebreak or Oakensoul during their PTS.
If you released Build videos saying "it's Ya Boi with an awesome new build"
If you ran a golded out version of these builds.

Then it is difficult for me to think you have "Game Balance" in mind when these changes literally make every class 90% balanced instead of the 20% and constant "BIS/best class/Meta change" we have had for over 4 years.

The "Rock, Paper, scissors" formula doesn't work when power creep and layers of spaghetti have turned the 'Paper' into a single square of wet toilet paper yet the 'Rock' is now a 40 tonne Granite slab

When sets and builds are "Banned from tournaments" then "Balance" is an illusion that everyone is gaslit to accept.

The tests for Balance are "Is content Achievable" and "in PVP is the playing field equal", Yes damage is going down but the new changes will happen (for server and accesibility reasons, i.e slower ticking DoT's and HoT's, lower requirement to hit every weave to come still come close-ish to a veteran player) This is our opportunity as a community to actually help Balance the game for the future so offer Constructive feedback from experience with that in mind.

Just adding two gold to this, part of the reason is to prevent numbers creep, if you've seen this being solved make a post about how it was fixed. If you know of a way of making content scale differently, like a Vet+ then post it.

If anything if you're reading this go get the PTS and see whats going on, the team need data, post changes using addons showing hard data differences, also unexpected changes as well between live and PTS for example. Even if you've not done this before think of it as opportunity.

Good points Lapin_Logic.