Sometimes I play a 0nebar build because I'm lazy as hell sometimes. But when it's time to Pump I use both. I still think Oakensoul will be good for general content, I don't think even pre-nerf it would out-parse a fully decked out build though.

BroughBreaux wrote: »

Captain_OP wrote: »

To be honest, this has already been discussed:
Do you want a Mythic for one-bar builds?

Most people were ok with major buffs only, because they give freedom to the builds. If they go with major buffs then they should add major berserk and sorcery on top and the ring would be perfect. It would be a viable replacement for the backbar and would always reward learning bar swapping because the skills that can give you the buffs have some additional effects.

Only major buffs don't cut it because you're still missing your infused weapon damage backbar which is a unique source of weapon and spell damage. You don't get this from this mythic anymore, but you did before the nerf.

You get major courage from SPC and Olorime in your optimized group. This is redundant.
You get major crit buffs from your potions. This is redundant.
You get major recovery bonuses from your potions. This is redundant.

The only benefit you get out of it is the max stats. Everything else is useless. But now you're unable to barswap, meaning you are now not only wasting your mythic slot on this rather than something like the Kilt or the new Mora's Whispers, but you also can't bar swap to proc infused backbar or get a major sorcery/brutality buff, so you still have to use a potion anyway, and you don't get to place more AOEs or DOTs you'd have had slotted on your backbar.

This mythic was so poorly and haphazardly "fixed", it might just take the cake for worst mythic in the game in its current state, and that is a VERY competitive spot.


This is what the mythic needs to account for:
1. Infused Weapon Damage enchant on a Maelstrom Backbar
2. Not having extra damage abilities on the backbar.

So it needs to:
1. Give you a unique weapon and spell damage bonus equal to infused weapon damage enchant
2. Buff the few abilities you do have on your frontbar to equal the output you would have if you had backbar damage abilities
3. Not be redundant with buffs you easily source from other places.

What the ring does post-nerf
1. Does not offer unique weapon and spell damage equal to infused WD BB
2. Does technically buff your frontbar abilities, but,
3. Does do with horrible redundancy by only providing commonly and easily sourced group and potion buffs i.e. Spell/Weapon Power Potion and group supports running SPC or Olorime.


It is absolutely incomprehensible how this nerf can be justified as ok. It doesn't do its job. No one would get any benefit out of using this. It's too powerful for overland, it's not powerful enough for endgame PvE or PvP, it doesn't buff werewolves any more than any other mythic does. Who else would actually use it?

So you're saying you want a mythic that gives you the damage of a back bar for free without it being inferior in any way to someone who is actually putting in the work and using his backbar? On an item that basically disables a core functionality of the game? This Item in the way it was presented would fundamentally change how people play the game for the worse, a lot of encounters would have you basically gimp your character because running a single bar would be superior to having two bars, this is not about parsing.

Sure I think it could do with something like Minor Force and Minor Berserk to bring it up a bit but other than that the Item is fine as it is, I myself will probably use it for some things like XP farming and such.

Zezin wrote: »

So you're saying you want a mythic that gives you the damage of a back bar for free without it being inferior in any way to someone who is actually putting in the work and using his backbar?

Yes.

Backbar stuff isn't putting in work, it's just more buttons to press and more options for your build. There's also nothing stopping you from still using your 2bar build.

Currently 1bar builds are so far behind 2bar builds when there's still the same skill and same tact that goes into making a 2bar build, you just don't get the same payout. In fact, it's actually harder to make a 1bar build because of how limited it is, 2bar builds are easier because you have 10 bar slots and 2 ultimates. A 1bar build has 5 slots and one ultimate. There's a huge cost to running a 1bar build and there is no inverse boost to buff them. ZOS loves that kind of stuff - disadvantage your self but then gain an advantage. Look at stuff like Pelinal's Wrath, Frenzy, Malacath's Band, etc.

It absolutely was the intention to bring 1bar builds up to speed, they just over-nerfed it and it needs an adjustment.

All I I'm honestly hoping gets changed at this point is
1. Replace Major Courage with a unique 450 WD bonus
2. Add Major Sorcery and Brutality
3. add Major Berserk

Especially Sorcery and Brutality because you get all the benefits of a spell power potion from this ring without the spell power, so you still have to pop a spell power potion and there are no other mixtures with sorcery/brutality with other buffs like heroism. Doesn't make sense to waste a bar spot on something like degeneration just to get one buff, and it doesn't make sense to use a spell power potion just to get one buff, so just add that buff to the ring and free up the ability to use a heroism potion for example.

Rather than make a new thread (since one new one already got closed down), I'll just add this here.

For PvP at least, I was able to really warp my mind theorycrafting and experimenting and got sheet stats pretty close to where they were pre-nerf, but still less powerful. The problem is that this is still worse than what a 2bar build can offer so it's still probably not worth running in PvP anyway, at least not for magsorc.

Week 1 PTS testing character sheet (important to note this pre-nerf sheet was still worse than the 2bar build with the exact same stuff):

This is with 5pc Necropotence, 5pc Bright-Throat's Boast, 1pc Mighty Chudan, and Oakensoul. Purifying Bloody Mara buff drink and using Alliance Spell Draught Potions.

Week 3 PTS testing character sheet:

This is with 5pc Spinner's Garments, 5pc Bright-Throat's Boast, 1pc Swarm Mother, and Oakensoul. Ghastly Eye Bowl buff drink and using Armor + Protection + Vitality potions.

Going to be doing a lot more experimenting to see what all I can do with it post-nerf. Kinda stuck about where I am though because I need my shields to be strong and max mag sets are usually worse than other sets as far as stat-density is concerned. Other classes may get more benefit from this ring now than sorcs do.

Jman100582 wrote: »

The reason there is such a huge cost to one bar builds is quite simply that the game is literally designed from the very very very beginning to be played with two bars.

It actually wasn't the original design intention. It was originally supposed to be a
"I have a sword but maybe I want to switch to a bow while questing if there's an enemy farther away, so I can have a bow in my back pocket and pull it out when I need to."
It only later was repurposed by theorycrafters when harder content started being released for the game like craglorn where people realized
"I can put buffs and AOEs and DOTs on my backbar rather than trying to stuff everything on my frontbar"
And now it's the standard. The game is now deisgned around it, but that was not the original purpose of the backbar. It's literally in the name "primary" and "backup". It's an option for another kind of play, not necessarily a required second bar, otherwise it would be called "secondary" and not "backup".

That notwithstanding I run two-bar builds on all my characters and "graduated" past one-bar builds years ago, but I've had a lot of fun with oakensoul (before it got nerfed) and I would definitely like to see one-bar be a viable option for late/endgame content like it was intended to be at launch.

Jman100582 wrote: »

One bar pve builds have only become relatively popular for newer players getting into pve that don’t want to do a super long and “advanced” rotation. It’s one thing to run something that gives you a big advantage but with a big downside (malacath is a terrible example imo, that was literally meta on every class in pvp except for like one or two for a whole year until markyn was added) but it’s a completely different thing to run a build where you just straight up gimp yourself. There is no incentive to play a one bar build. I don’t even think there should be an incentive to begin with. Two bar builds should always hit harder. More abilities = more dmg. That should be pretty easy to understand. Not only that, but there is also the gear slots and all of that and enchants on top of that that you miss out on if you go 1 bar

Ever heard of diversifying? Having fun? The reasoning is that it's a different playstyle that requires a different approach. And again, you can't act like this two-bar meta has always been this way especially when, like I said, that wasn't even the original design intention.

Jman100582 wrote: »

The game literally tells you about barswap at level 10, it literally tells you about animation canceling with light attacks in load screens. These are in-game mechanics that the game WANTS you to use. Ofc not engaging with them will be detrimental, it’s BUILT into the games infrastructure. A lot of the one bar builds out there are advertised as “beginner friendly” and all those types of things, and that’s exactly who should be using those types of builds. Beginners. Who don’t really understand the game, don’t understand why you should run certain sets, don’t understand “basic” things like light attack weaving and using multiple skills to achieve an outcome. It is dumbed down for them, so they can enjoy the game and get through content to where they can learn stuff like “oh maybe I shouldn’t stand in that aoe” or “oh I need to heal/block or whatever when this enemy does this thing” and other things like that.

already addressed most of this in the last chunk but I'll reiterate. one-bar builds can be fun, and they can be just as difficult and require the same skill level as two-bar builds. The sole difference is there's more buttons to press on a two-bar rotation. That's it. You still have to weave perfectly and consistently, you can't stand stupid in AOEs, you have to follow the raid instructions, you have to keep your potions popped when cooldown ends, you need to slot the right skills and use them effectively, and you have to seriously prune and chose the absolute best skills because there is no room for any unoptimization because you do not have the other abilities to compensate, you have 5 slots and an ult you had better make sure all of those are the most optimized abilities you could put on your bar. You still have to use meta sets and you need to make sure you aren't choosing sets or abilities that may overlap redundantly with things your group has, etc. It's simply not true to say one-bar builds are exclusively for beginners when making an effective and powerful one-bar build is more difficult than making a two-bar build for endgame content and still requires the same skill level and knowledge about the game.

Jman100582 wrote: »

A beginner level build should be in no way shape or form competitive if not BETTER than an “advanced” build that requires double to triple the amount of inputs and player knowledge to squeeze every last bit of dps or healing out.

Go ahead and use that 130k one-bar sorc build from last week and tell me that's a beginner build. You can't just pretend that one-bar builds are only for beginners. That's extremely disingenuous. Refer to previous reply chunk.


In summary:

1. one-bar builds should be a viable option.
2. one-bar builds still require the same skill and knowledge of the game and its mechanics to dish out damage effectively
3. the one-bar builds on PTS pre-nerf are not beginner builds and your entire argument is therefore disingenuous and a red herring because you're speaking as if one-bar builds are only for noobs when the entire point of this mythic was to give the option to advanced players wo want to use a one-bar build for endgame content as a matter of preference.
4. I want it to be viable if for no other reason because I sense an air of elitism in your reply and that's cringe. The game is meant to be fun, take a deep breath and exhale.

Jman100582 wrote: »

BroughBreaux wrote: »

Jman100582 wrote: »

The reason there is such a huge cost to one bar builds is quite simply that the game is literally designed from the very very very beginning to be played with two bars.

It actually wasn't the original design intention. It was originally supposed to be a
"I have a sword but maybe I want to switch to a bow while questing if there's an enemy farther away, so I can have a bow in my back pocket and pull it out when I need to."
It only later was repurposed by theorycrafters when harder content started being released for the game like craglorn where people realized
"I can put buffs and AOEs and DOTs on my backbar rather than trying to stuff everything on my frontbar"
And now it's the standard. The game is now deisgned around it, but that was not the original purpose of the backbar. It's literally in the name "primary" and "backup". It's an option for another kind of play, not necessarily a required second bar, otherwise it would be called "secondary" and not "backup".

That notwithstanding I run two-bar builds on all my characters and "graduated" past one-bar builds years ago, but I've had a lot of fun with oakensoul (before it got nerfed) and I would definitely like to see one-bar be a viable option for late/endgame content like it was intended to be at launch.

Jman100582 wrote: »

One bar pve builds have only become relatively popular for newer players getting into pve that don’t want to do a super long and “advanced” rotation. It’s one thing to run something that gives you a big advantage but with a big downside (malacath is a terrible example imo, that was literally meta on every class in pvp except for like one or two for a whole year until markyn was added) but it’s a completely different thing to run a build where you just straight up gimp yourself. There is no incentive to play a one bar build. I don’t even think there should be an incentive to begin with. Two bar builds should always hit harder. More abilities = more dmg. That should be pretty easy to understand. Not only that, but there is also the gear slots and all of that and enchants on top of that that you miss out on if you go 1 bar

Ever heard of diversifying? Having fun? The reasoning is that it's a different playstyle that requires a different approach. And again, you can't act like this two-bar meta has always been this way especially when, like I said, that wasn't even the original design intention.

Jman100582 wrote: »

The game literally tells you about barswap at level 10, it literally tells you about animation canceling with light attacks in load screens. These are in-game mechanics that the game WANTS you to use. Ofc not engaging with them will be detrimental, it’s BUILT into the games infrastructure. A lot of the one bar builds out there are advertised as “beginner friendly” and all those types of things, and that’s exactly who should be using those types of builds. Beginners. Who don’t really understand the game, don’t understand why you should run certain sets, don’t understand “basic” things like light attack weaving and using multiple skills to achieve an outcome. It is dumbed down for them, so they can enjoy the game and get through content to where they can learn stuff like “oh maybe I shouldn’t stand in that aoe” or “oh I need to heal/block or whatever when this enemy does this thing” and other things like that.

already addressed most of this in the last chunk but I'll reiterate. one-bar builds can be fun, and they can be just as difficult and require the same skill level as two-bar builds. The sole difference is there's more buttons to press on a two-bar rotation. That's it. You still have to weave perfectly and consistently, you can't stand stupid in AOEs, you have to follow the raid instructions, you have to keep your potions popped when cooldown ends, you need to slot the right skills and use them effectively, and you have to seriously prune and chose the absolute best skills because there is no room for any unoptimization because you do not have the other abilities to compensate, you have 5 slots and an ult you had better make sure all of those are the most optimized abilities you could put on your bar. You still have to use meta sets and you need to make sure you aren't choosing sets or abilities that may overlap redundantly with things your group has, etc. It's simply not true to say one-bar builds are exclusively for beginners when making an effective and powerful one-bar build is more difficult than making a two-bar build for endgame content and still requires the same skill level and knowledge about the game.

Jman100582 wrote: »

A beginner level build should be in no way shape or form competitive if not BETTER than an “advanced” build that requires double to triple the amount of inputs and player knowledge to squeeze every last bit of dps or healing out.

Go ahead and use that 130k one-bar sorc build from last week and tell me that's a beginner build. You can't just pretend that one-bar builds are only for beginners. That's extremely disingenuous. Refer to previous reply chunk.


In summary:

1. one-bar builds should be a viable option.
2. one-bar builds still require the same skill and knowledge of the game and its mechanics to dish out damage effectively
3. the one-bar builds on PTS pre-nerf are not beginner builds and your entire argument is therefore disingenuous and a red herring because you're speaking as if one-bar builds are only for noobs when the entire point of this mythic was to give the option to advanced players wo want to use a one-bar build for endgame content as a matter of preference.
4. I want it to be viable if for no other reason because I sense an air of elitism in your reply and that's cringe. The game is meant to be fun, take a deep breath and exhale.

1. Pull a weapon out of your back pocket to play ranged instead of melee isn’t a point? If anything it reinforces that zos from the very beginning wanted people to run a diverse build and use different weapons to diversify it. Yeah over time it developed into put x skills on a bar put y skills on b bar, but that does t change the fact that from the games inception that they wanted diversity to come from using multiple ability types
2. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=z6f2Qdxg-xE https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=44IsrJ4AeiY https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pEzz59HGs9o There you go 3 one bar builds on different classes that all hit around the 80k mark when optimally played
3. Didn’t say they couldn’t be fun. If you wanna have fun go ahead and have fun. I literally said they made the game more enjoyable for beginners. But you have to realize “play how you want” doesn’t mean that everything in this game is balanced. It doesn’t mean that having fun will always = being competitive (not like being competitive matters to the beginner player anyway) and in all honesty that’s almost never the case. Game is unbalanced. If you want to play something that goes against the games infrastructure because it’s fun more power to you, just don’t expect to be at the ceiling or demand to be at the ceiling
4. It’s not about me being elitist. When the game wants you to engage with multiple weapons and ability types in order to have the complete “elder scrolls online experience” and you actively don’t want to do that…don’t complain about not having the full experience. Like I said, raising the floor is fine. I don’t care about pve at all frankly all I do is pvp. In fact most the time when I need something from pve I run a 1 bar stamplar build with deadly and selenes and pale order because I don’t have hi-end sets and I still hit 60-70k. That’s more than enough to fulfill my pve needs. And even with that little pve experience it’s pretty clear (to me at least) that raise the floor doesn’t mean turn it into a ceiling. What kind of room has two ceilings? That doesn’t even make sense

I still fail to understand your train of logic. The only difference between a one-bar build and a two-bar build is that a two bar build has two-weapons and more buttons to press. The nature of the mythic requires you to be locked into only having one bar, otherwise it would just be a free damage OP mythic item.

and I'll just be brief because I'm restating what I've already said. There should always be options. Everyone complains about a lack of diversity in ESO because of this and that and hybridization and backbar sets, and yada yada. This mythic allows (was supposed to allow) an entirely different playstyle to be viable. That is always a good thing. One-bar is a different option and a matter of preference - it still requires the exact same skill, the same knowledge of the game, and the same practice and patience in endgame content. It has its own benefits and drawbacks just as any other two-bar build does. There is no reason it should be left in the mid-tier and looked down on by people who think their playstyle or preferences are better than someone else's.


and since I'm typing a reply anyway I'll go ahead and jot some things down:

Benefits of two-bar builds:
1. More utility and options in having more abilities
2. able to slot bar buffers and use different potions
3. (currently) achieves higher DPS.

Drawbacks of two-bar builds
1. more complex rotation
2. can suck in laggy situations where pressing the backbar button is simply not registered

Benefits of one-bar builds
1. Simplified rotation (QOL)
2. preforms better in laggy situations as you do not have to worry about your backbar button not working

Drawbacks of two-bar builds
1. Less available bar space so abilities are exclusively need-to-have
2. Not usually able to slot bar buffers and must use a spell/weapon power potion instead of being able to use heroism for better ult gen
3. (currently) achieves lower DPS

Making one-bar builds viable via oakensoul would close the gap significantly and allow more freedom of choice as, since I've said like 4 times now, one-bar builds still require the same knowledge skill, and practice in the game, it is only a matter of preference.

BroughBreaux wrote: »

Jman100582 wrote: »

BroughBreaux wrote: »

Jman100582 wrote: »

The reason there is such a huge cost to one bar builds is quite simply that the game is literally designed from the very very very beginning to be played with two bars.

It actually wasn't the original design intention. It was originally supposed to be a
"I have a sword but maybe I want to switch to a bow while questing if there's an enemy farther away, so I can have a bow in my back pocket and pull it out when I need to."
It only later was repurposed by theorycrafters when harder content started being released for the game like craglorn where people realized
"I can put buffs and AOEs and DOTs on my backbar rather than trying to stuff everything on my frontbar"
And now it's the standard. The game is now deisgned around it, but that was not the original purpose of the backbar. It's literally in the name "primary" and "backup". It's an option for another kind of play, not necessarily a required second bar, otherwise it would be called "secondary" and not "backup".

That notwithstanding I run two-bar builds on all my characters and "graduated" past one-bar builds years ago, but I've had a lot of fun with oakensoul (before it got nerfed) and I would definitely like to see one-bar be a viable option for late/endgame content like it was intended to be at launch.

Jman100582 wrote: »

One bar pve builds have only become relatively popular for newer players getting into pve that don’t want to do a super long and “advanced” rotation. It’s one thing to run something that gives you a big advantage but with a big downside (malacath is a terrible example imo, that was literally meta on every class in pvp except for like one or two for a whole year until markyn was added) but it’s a completely different thing to run a build where you just straight up gimp yourself. There is no incentive to play a one bar build. I don’t even think there should be an incentive to begin with. Two bar builds should always hit harder. More abilities = more dmg. That should be pretty easy to understand. Not only that, but there is also the gear slots and all of that and enchants on top of that that you miss out on if you go 1 bar

Ever heard of diversifying? Having fun? The reasoning is that it's a different playstyle that requires a different approach. And again, you can't act like this two-bar meta has always been this way especially when, like I said, that wasn't even the original design intention.

Jman100582 wrote: »

The game literally tells you about barswap at level 10, it literally tells you about animation canceling with light attacks in load screens. These are in-game mechanics that the game WANTS you to use. Ofc not engaging with them will be detrimental, it’s BUILT into the games infrastructure. A lot of the one bar builds out there are advertised as “beginner friendly” and all those types of things, and that’s exactly who should be using those types of builds. Beginners. Who don’t really understand the game, don’t understand why you should run certain sets, don’t understand “basic” things like light attack weaving and using multiple skills to achieve an outcome. It is dumbed down for them, so they can enjoy the game and get through content to where they can learn stuff like “oh maybe I shouldn’t stand in that aoe” or “oh I need to heal/block or whatever when this enemy does this thing” and other things like that.

already addressed most of this in the last chunk but I'll reiterate. one-bar builds can be fun, and they can be just as difficult and require the same skill level as two-bar builds. The sole difference is there's more buttons to press on a two-bar rotation. That's it. You still have to weave perfectly and consistently, you can't stand stupid in AOEs, you have to follow the raid instructions, you have to keep your potions popped when cooldown ends, you need to slot the right skills and use them effectively, and you have to seriously prune and chose the absolute best skills because there is no room for any unoptimization because you do not have the other abilities to compensate, you have 5 slots and an ult you had better make sure all of those are the most optimized abilities you could put on your bar. You still have to use meta sets and you need to make sure you aren't choosing sets or abilities that may overlap redundantly with things your group has, etc. It's simply not true to say one-bar builds are exclusively for beginners when making an effective and powerful one-bar build is more difficult than making a two-bar build for endgame content and still requires the same skill level and knowledge about the game.

Jman100582 wrote: »

A beginner level build should be in no way shape or form competitive if not BETTER than an “advanced” build that requires double to triple the amount of inputs and player knowledge to squeeze every last bit of dps or healing out.

Go ahead and use that 130k one-bar sorc build from last week and tell me that's a beginner build. You can't just pretend that one-bar builds are only for beginners. That's extremely disingenuous. Refer to previous reply chunk.


In summary:

1. one-bar builds should be a viable option.
2. one-bar builds still require the same skill and knowledge of the game and its mechanics to dish out damage effectively
3. the one-bar builds on PTS pre-nerf are not beginner builds and your entire argument is therefore disingenuous and a red herring because you're speaking as if one-bar builds are only for noobs when the entire point of this mythic was to give the option to advanced players wo want to use a one-bar build for endgame content as a matter of preference.
4. I want it to be viable if for no other reason because I sense an air of elitism in your reply and that's cringe. The game is meant to be fun, take a deep breath and exhale.

1. Pull a weapon out of your back pocket to play ranged instead of melee isn’t a point? If anything it reinforces that zos from the very beginning wanted people to run a diverse build and use different weapons to diversify it. Yeah over time it developed into put x skills on a bar put y skills on b bar, but that does t change the fact that from the games inception that they wanted diversity to come from using multiple ability types
2. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=z6f2Qdxg-xE https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=44IsrJ4AeiY https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pEzz59HGs9o There you go 3 one bar builds on different classes that all hit around the 80k mark when optimally played
3. Didn’t say they couldn’t be fun. If you wanna have fun go ahead and have fun. I literally said they made the game more enjoyable for beginners. But you have to realize “play how you want” doesn’t mean that everything in this game is balanced. It doesn’t mean that having fun will always = being competitive (not like being competitive matters to the beginner player anyway) and in all honesty that’s almost never the case. Game is unbalanced. If you want to play something that goes against the games infrastructure because it’s fun more power to you, just don’t expect to be at the ceiling or demand to be at the ceiling
4. It’s not about me being elitist. When the game wants you to engage with multiple weapons and ability types in order to have the complete “elder scrolls online experience” and you actively don’t want to do that…don’t complain about not having the full experience. Like I said, raising the floor is fine. I don’t care about pve at all frankly all I do is pvp. In fact most the time when I need something from pve I run a 1 bar stamplar build with deadly and selenes and pale order because I don’t have hi-end sets and I still hit 60-70k. That’s more than enough to fulfill my pve needs. And even with that little pve experience it’s pretty clear (to me at least) that raise the floor doesn’t mean turn it into a ceiling. What kind of room has two ceilings? That doesn’t even make sense

I still fail to understand your train of logic. The only difference between a one-bar build and a two-bar build is that a two bar build has two-weapons and more buttons to press. The nature of the mythic requires you to be locked into only having one bar, otherwise it would just be a free damage OP mythic item.

and I'll just be brief because I'm restating what I've already said. There should always be options. Everyone complains about a lack of diversity in ESO because of this and that and hybridization and backbar sets, and yada yada. This mythic allows (was supposed to allow) an entirely different playstyle to be viable. That is always a good thing. One-bar is a different option and a matter of preference - it still requires the exact same skill, the same knowledge of the game, and the same practice and patience in endgame content. It has its own benefits and drawbacks just as any other two-bar build does. There is no reason it should be left in the mid-tier and looked down on by people who think their playstyle or preferences are better than someone else's.


and since I'm typing a reply anyway I'll go ahead and jot some things down:

Benefits of two-bar builds:
1. More utility and options in having more abilities
2. able to slot bar buffers and use different potions
3. (currently) achieves higher DPS.

Drawbacks of two-bar builds
1. more complex rotation
2. can suck in laggy situations where pressing the backbar button is simply not registered

Benefits of one-bar builds
1. Simplified rotation (QOL)
2. preforms better in laggy situations as you do not have to worry about your backbar button not working

Drawbacks of two-bar builds
1. Less available bar space so abilities are exclusively need-to-have
2. Not usually able to slot bar buffers and must use a spell/weapon power potion instead of being able to use heroism for better ult gen
3. (currently) achieves lower DPS

Making one-bar builds viable via oakensoul would close the gap significantly and allow more freedom of choice as, since I've said like 4 times now, one-bar builds still require the same knowledge skill, and practice in the game, it is only a matter of preference.

Yeah, what if I told you there SHOULD be a decent sized gap? And I love how the solution you want for people who need the floor raised for them is blatantly p2w and requires who knows how many dlcs (I don’t know where all the leads come from and of any additional dlc is required outside of the expansion). What is the point of playing a two bar build that requires triple the inputs when you could play with half of the hassle and just play a one bar build? You should have to work to get 100k+ dps, it shouldn’t just fall in your lap because you get oakensoul. There needs to be a skill gap on every game, and if the skill gap on eso involves barswapping and animation canceling and light attack weaving and player knowledge as well as perfectly timing a pve rotation between 10 skills and 2 ultimates, then that’s what it takes. One bar builds are already viable, 60-80k dps is more than enough to clear majority of content. Am I wrong for saying there needs to be a skill gap? A two bar build is literally harder to play because keeping up a rotation with more skills and having to keep track of more things is more difficult than a one bar build with half the skills to keep track of. As such…it should deal more damage. Whereas I can literally spam jabs, keep up THREE buffs (trap, purifying light, and ritual) and bam 70k dps. If I throw in hailstorm, and whatever other dots/debuffs into the mix and keep up that rotation, I should deal more. Regardless of my build. I actively choose not to to dumb the experience down and make it easier. If a playstyle is easier, it simply shouldn’t be as rewarding in my opinion. And as such it shouldn’t be as viable (which it already is some classes) nor should it be as competitive as a build that requires you to engage with the game more

@BroughBreaux I agree with you for the most part, the dd needs to know the mechanics and keep up attacks etc or their dps will be in the toilet, however I think you're under representing how much of a difference using the back bar and keeping up the all important buff dot is compared to a 1 bar build

i've helped a lot of people work on their rotation and improving their dps and pretty much always the first step is just light weave your spammable until you can reliably get 1 skill / light attack per second.
then add the rest of the front bar skills.
then only unstable wall
then the full rotation.

the biggest hit to their light attack ratio is when the back bar is added. then the first thing we look at in logs is how tight their back bar cycle is. are we seeing wall every 10 seconds like clockwork or are we getting 3 walls in 15 seconds and then none for 30 seconds?
i would say a 1 bar, spammable and proc rotation like a stam sorc is around 40% of the difficulty of doing a full rotation.
further more a lot of sets like kinra are difficult to have good uptimes when you can only run it on the front bar in content. this isn't true with a 1 bar setup.

the difficult part you keep pointing to is in the theory crafting side of a 1 bar build, not in the execution side. it's disingenuous to suggest that a 1 bar build is "harder" because you have less when you're arguing for an item to fill in all the gaps you're missing.

don't get me wrong, i really like the concept of a 1 bar mythic and i think it will assist a lot of people feel like they are not locked out of content if they can have a simplified build and they can spend their attention on the trial mechanics instead of dps rotation.

that said, i can't honestly say that i want to see a 1 bar build compete with 2 bar builds at the top end. in all seriousness, why bother with a more complicated build and rotation if there isn't any advantage to it?

Idk man introducing an item you have to BUY to make your one bar build viable/competitive with those damn two bar builds seems a little p2w for people that enjoy that playstyle, but that could very well just be me

Jman100582 wrote: »

Idk man introducing an item you have to BUY to make your one bar build viable/competitive with those damn two bar builds seems a little p2w for people that enjoy that playstyle, but that could very well just be me

you mean like Maelstrom backbars (have to buy Orsinium or ESO Plus)?

Sorry I know I said I was done but I couldn't not reply to this hahaha. P2W arguments about new things coming out with new content is always funny and such an obvious and pitiful reach since time immemorial. The exact same argument has been used for every single DLC with good items in it since 2014. Then the new DLC comes out and everyone stops caring that the thing is P2W (because they don't care, it's just some argument filler no one actually takes seriously).

I also love the snark of "those damn two bar builds" as if I ever expressed any hostility towards two-bar builds being meta and standard anywhere in this engagement.

Jman100582 wrote: »

@BroughBreaux really? How hard is a two bar build compared to a one bar build? One literally has less skills which is my entire point. One has less management. One is easier to use. One is much much much easier to learn. Which is why it should be less powerful. You literally sacrifice power for the sake of ease of gameplay. That’s my whole point. The fact you can’t see that and are instead fixated on the idea that they should be equal is beyond me. There is a trade off to every playstyle, and it just happens that the trade off for one bar is less power because of less skills. That’s it. To try and argue that there shouldn’t be a trade off at all and that they should be equal in terms of power to a two bar build literally does not make sense. Much less putting the item required for it behind a paywall.

You just want a playstyle to have no trade offs. Which is fine to think I suppose, but if you think that’s ok for the sake of balance I’m very glad you aren’t a dev


*edit: yeah guess what? Maelstrom is p2w too. I don’t want the game to be p2w at all believe it or not

You're literally just not reading what I'm saying at this point and going back to a canned set of talking points.

Jman100582 wrote: »

BroughBreaux wrote: »

Jman100582 wrote: »

@BroughBreaux really? How hard is a two bar build compared to a one bar build? One literally has less skills which is my entire point. One has less management. One is easier to use. One is much much much easier to learn. Which is why it should be less powerful. You literally sacrifice power for the sake of ease of gameplay. That’s my whole point. The fact you can’t see that and are instead fixated on the idea that they should be equal is beyond me. There is a trade off to every playstyle, and it just happens that the trade off for one bar is less power because of less skills. That’s it. To try and argue that there shouldn’t be a trade off at all and that they should be equal in terms of power to a two bar build literally does not make sense. Much less putting the item required for it behind a paywall.

You just want a playstyle to have no trade offs. Which is fine to think I suppose, but if you think that’s ok for the sake of balance I’m very glad you aren’t a dev


*edit: yeah guess what? Maelstrom is p2w too. I don’t want the game to be p2w at all believe it or not

You're literally just not reading what I'm saying at this point and going back to a canned set of talking points.

Yeah the reason I go back to my talking points is because it’s my counter argument that you aren’t reading. Because you can’t argue against it, which is pretty obvious. “One bar builds don’t have as much dps and aren’t as viable!” And I respond with “yeah here’s x y and z as to why they SHOULDNT be as powerful” and your only response it “well I think they should be and you are wrong. But I won’t say why you’re wrong and will instead just disagree with you”

My points are very much valid, the trade offs of 1 bar vs 2 bars is more than fair. You’re very much lucky that they pull more than half of what two bar builds can do, which imo is what it should be at in terms of dps output. Using half the skills? Roughly half the dps. I’ve already had the light attack weave debate with way too many people and I’m glad that at the very least you don’t disagree with that. But anyways I’m sure half of this will get deleted and the thread will probably get locked, and maybe I’ll be hit with a ban for saying eso is p2w (it absolutely is and everybody who’s been around for at least the past 5 years knows this)

No you just demonstrated again you didn't read what I wrote.

BroughBreaux wrote: »

Yes, it is more complex, and one could say difficult, to do a 2bar rotation. That much I'm not questioning. I'm simply arguing that 1bar builds should not be performing as low as they are because, despite the rotation complexity being cut out, in the actual content, the player still has to have the same skill level and competence to actually do the content. I am also not saying they would be equal, I do think there should be a gap, a more complex rotation should yield better damage. What I'm taking issue with is that the gap is too big.

Anyway
This flowchart is what I'm taking issue with.

I never said they should be equal in power, in fact I just said there should be a gap. What I'm arguing is that because an individual still has the skill, aptitude, competence to run the content if they were to use a 2bar build as opposed to a 1bar build does not mean that they should then be locked out of the content on that one bar build

Barswapping and pressing 2 or 3 extra buttons in a rotation should not be the determinant factor for whether someone can participate in the endgame. The determinant factor should be the player's skill in the game, knowledge of the game, and ability to follow raid instructions. That is the skill gap in ESO and it always has been. I mean can we please stop pretending that you need a PhD in astrophysics to press the backbar button and reapply a dot or buff or aoe in a timely manner? This is pretty basic stuff, all you need to do is get proficient at it and learn the nuances to when you should barswap and the rest.
Besides, someone who can't barswap proficiently probably doesn't have the know-how to get good damage with the one bar they do have. What I'm saying is that people who are good at the game and want to use a one-bar build should be able to without such a ginormous and prohibitive gap like what exists now.


The limiting principle to all this is that you have to be competent when putting together a one-bar build. It is not the same as someone theoretically saying that you shouldn't have to use set bonuses to do endgame content and you should be able to use white non-set gear in vet trials, because sets are not a matter of playstyle preference whereas one-bar vs two-bar is.

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Sometimes I play a 0nebar build because I'm lazy as hell sometimes. But when it's time to Pump I use both. I still think Oakensoul will be good for general content, I don't think even pre-nerf it would out-parse a fully decked out build though.

Oh no it might be ok for general content, but there's lots of better things that are good and easy in general content. The point is giving people that can't do two-bar builds a bit more power so they can do end game content like vet trials and harder vet dungeons. This fails on that aspect, ...

You keep saying that and im not sure if that is the intention of ZOS with this ring. From the Overland sticky debate we can interprate, that are a load of people who think that the overland content is allready challanging. Wether we agree on that or not is not important.
in my mind ZOS designed Oakensoul with this playerbase in mind, not with the playerbase that, for what ever reason, only wants or can use one bar to get into vet trials and vet DLC dungeons. i think this is the right choice, as harder content should require the players who participate to use the full potential of their characters.
playing with only 50% of the skillslots is a choice (most of the time) and with this ring its going to suffice for everything the game has to offer in normal mode. there should be no mythic item in a game that sets up a character that only uses half the skills on par with a character who uses all.

BroughBreaux wrote: »

Rather than make a new thread (since one new one already got closed down), I'll just add this here.

For PvP at least, I was able to really warp my mind theorycrafting and experimenting and got sheet stats pretty close to where they were pre-nerf, but still less powerful. The problem is that this is still worse than what a 2bar build can offer so it's still probably not worth running in PvP anyway, at least not for magsorc.

Week 1 PTS testing character sheet (important to note this pre-nerf sheet was still worse than the 2bar build with the exact same stuff):

This is with 5pc Necropotence, 5pc Bright-Throat's Boast, 1pc Mighty Chudan, and Oakensoul. Purifying Bloody Mara buff drink and using Alliance Spell Draught Potions.

Week 3 PTS testing character sheet:

This is with 5pc Spinner's Garments, 5pc Bright-Throat's Boast, 1pc Swarm Mother, and Oakensoul. Ghastly Eye Bowl buff drink and using Armor + Protection + Vitality potions.

Going to be doing a lot more experimenting to see what all I can do with it post-nerf. Kinda stuck about where I am though because I need my shields to be strong and max mag sets are usually worse than other sets as far as stat-density is concerned. Other classes may get more benefit from this ring now than sorcs do.

This ring should never be introduced into pvp. It will only benefit ballgroups and zerg surfing. Being able to use all those buffs while still getting crosshealed by your group and random bystanders is just to much. The Crossheal in pvp is so high that it often disables the necessity to switch on your backbar if you are running in a large enaugh group