Oakensoul Nerf

Melzo

Those who collect the mythic have already practically passed the game... If they can play with 2 bars, why this mythic?? And for beginners, this will not simplify anything. You lose 5 slots. You must fit into 5 slots good abilities that will give you life recovery, attack, escape. Can you fit in 5 slots? It's only going to get worse for a newbie. He will not be able to cope with such a load. Unless you just close the normal dungeon. This mythic is for advanced players. You have too much to consider and be able to play well to give at least 2/3 of the result from two panel assemblies.

Mr_Stach

Melzo wrote: »

Those who collect the mythic have already practically passed the game... If they can play with 2 bars, why this mythic?? And for beginners, this will not simplify anything. You lose 5 slots. You must fit into 5 slots good abilities that will give you life recovery, attack, escape. Can you fit in 5 slots? It's only going to get worse for a newbie. He will not be able to cope with such a load. Unless you just close the normal dungeon. This mythic is for advanced players. You have too much to consider and be able to play well to give at least 2/3 of the result from two panel assemblies.

I mean there are definitely builds that can Benefit, Pet Sorcs, half their skills Double Barred any ways. So this Mythic will probs be great.

Toxic_Hemlock

Melzo wrote: »

Those who collect the mythic have already practically passed the game... If they can play with 2 bars, why this mythic?? And for beginners, this will not simplify anything. You lose 5 slots. You must fit into 5 slots good abilities that will give you life recovery, attack, escape. Can you fit in 5 slots? It's only going to get worse for a newbie. He will not be able to cope with such a load. Unless you just close the normal dungeon. This mythic is for advanced players. You have too much to consider and be able to play well to give at least 2/3 of the result from two panel assemblies.

Here's my take on this item:

They need to give it a place.

That is, is it going to make high end meta players superhuman but also allow those that need the hand up viable? Then good.
Is it just going to be another trash item that the high end meta players will ignore, and serves no real purpose over potions for those that struggle? Then it serves nobody..

They need to find a happy medium, I for one don't give a rats behind if the high level meta players (5%) are hitting record breaking numbers as it means nothing to me, so long as I can do some of the content I PAY for and am unable to do.

DEVS: If you keep hitting everything this hard with a nerf bat, It makes nobody happy! If you don't want to revert it, at least make it the way it was when it was first announced adding a small bonus to crit chance. This way those of us that do struggle can at least benefit from the extra buffs we can get when we party.

Edit; Clarity

Remathilis

Jman100582 wrote: »

edit: yeah guess what? Maelstrom is p2w too. I don’t want the game to be p2w at all believe it or not

That settles it. All DLC sets should be nerfed back to the level of Base Game Sets or Craglorn trial sets. No more P2W.

Mr_Stach

Whelp that means people who buy nicer computers to have better performance are P2W. Zos really needs to get their act together.

Remathilis

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Whelp that means people who buy nicer computers to have better performance are P2W. Zos really needs to get their act together.

Do you know how unfair those people with next gen consoles have over those still using last gen? Absolutely disgraceful.

Mr_Stach

Remathilis wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Whelp that means people who buy nicer computers to have better performance are P2W. Zos really needs to get their act together.

Do you know how unfair those people with next gen consoles have over those still using last gen? Absolutely disgraceful.

Not gonna lie, PS5 has been great for me. I better do better for all the P2W I bought

Captain_OP

Merforum wrote: »

BroughBreaux wrote: »

Jman100582 wrote: »

BroughBreaux wrote: »

Jman100582 wrote: »

@BroughBreaux really? How hard is a two bar build compared to a one bar build? One literally has less skills which is my entire point. One has less management. One is easier to use. One is much much much easier to learn. Which is why it should be less powerful. You literally sacrifice power for the sake of ease of gameplay. That’s my whole point. The fact you can’t see that and are instead fixated on the idea that they should be equal is beyond me. There is a trade off to every playstyle, and it just happens that the trade off for one bar is less power because of less skills. That’s it. To try and argue that there shouldn’t be a trade off at all and that they should be equal in terms of power to a two bar build literally does not make sense. Much less putting the item required for it behind a paywall.

You just want a playstyle to have no trade offs. Which is fine to think I suppose, but if you think that’s ok for the sake of balance I’m very glad you aren’t a dev


*edit: yeah guess what? Maelstrom is p2w too. I don’t want the game to be p2w at all believe it or not

You're literally just not reading what I'm saying at this point and going back to a canned set of talking points.

Yeah the reason I go back to my talking points is because it’s my counter argument that you aren’t reading. Because you can’t argue against it, which is pretty obvious. “One bar builds don’t have as much dps and aren’t as viable!” And I respond with “yeah here’s x y and z as to why they SHOULDNT be as powerful” and your only response it “well I think they should be and you are wrong. But I won’t say why you’re wrong and will instead just disagree with you”

My points are very much valid, the trade offs of 1 bar vs 2 bars is more than fair. You’re very much lucky that they pull more than half of what two bar builds can do, which imo is what it should be at in terms of dps output. Using half the skills? Roughly half the dps. I’ve already had the light attack weave debate with way too many people and I’m glad that at the very least you don’t disagree with that. But anyways I’m sure half of this will get deleted and the thread will probably get locked, and maybe I’ll be hit with a ban for saying eso is p2w (it absolutely is and everybody who’s been around for at least the past 5 years knows this)

No you just demonstrated again you didn't read what I wrote.

BroughBreaux wrote: »

Yes, it is more complex, and one could say difficult, to do a 2bar rotation. That much I'm not questioning. I'm simply arguing that 1bar builds should not be performing as low as they are because, despite the rotation complexity being cut out, in the actual content, the player still has to have the same skill level and competence to actually do the content. I am also not saying they would be equal, I do think there should be a gap, a more complex rotation should yield better damage. What I'm taking issue with is that the gap is too big.

Anyway
This flowchart is what I'm taking issue with.

I never said they should be equal in power, in fact I just said there should be a gap. What I'm arguing is that because an individual still has the skill, aptitude, competence to run the content if they were to use a 2bar build as opposed to a 1bar build does not mean that they should then be locked out of the content on that one bar build

Barswapping and pressing 2 or 3 extra buttons in a rotation should not be the determinant factor for whether someone can participate in the endgame. The determinant factor should be the player's skill in the game, knowledge of the game, and ability to follow raid instructions. That is the skill gap in ESO and it always has been. I mean can we please stop pretending that you need a PhD in astrophysics to press the backbar button and reapply a dot or buff or aoe in a timely manner? This is pretty basic stuff, all you need to do is get proficient at it and learn the nuances to when you should barswap and the rest.
Besides, someone who can't barswap proficiently probably doesn't have the know-how to get good damage with the one bar they do have. What I'm saying is that people who are good at the game and want to use a one-bar build should be able to without such a ginormous and prohibitive gap like what exists now.


The limiting principle to all this is that you have to be competent when putting together a one-bar build. It is not the same as someone theoretically saying that you shouldn't have to use set bonuses to do endgame content and you should be able to use white non-set gear in vet trials, because sets are not a matter of playstyle preference whereas one-bar vs two-bar is.

You are right. I can't believe the gatekeepers can't stand the fact that there might be something in the game that has no effect on them but might help physically disabled to do endgame content. I played for 5+ years and know as much as any of the gatekeepers, just have arthritis which means I either lose 80% of damage potential or hurt myself. Because as you say this game is like 90% physical button mashing skill and 10% mental skill, whereas most other games are 50/50. It is about time ZOS starts to address this. If they got rid of light attack animation canceling next they'd have a fantastic game.

This to be honest, they should integrate the 'play how you want' in the game design too. Being a low APM player should not be punished, but beeing a high APM player should still be rewarded. The Oakensoul ring is is step into the right direction.

festegios

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

.

Please tell about these skills so I can adjust all my alt's bars.

Channeled acceleration could work for you? It’s almost a passive skill. Once every 40 seconds or so 🤷‍♂️

I suck at using the quote feature, so sorry if this came out bad

Faylestar

fred4 wrote: »

I wonder how communication works within ZOS. "Guys: We need to reign in Oakensoul by making it use the major buffs that people normally get from their back bar or from having more bar space". Programmer goes ahead and does exactly that. What I'm driving at: Major Endurance and/or Intellect already comes from a potion while few people will care about the health regen. The recovery lines are now useless! I've seen some people praising this change, IMO rightfully so. At the same time we're setting the bar so very, very low for ZOS. A programmer who truly understood the intricacies of theory crafting might have assigned Minor resource recoveries to the ring. That is the kind of thing you get from slotting a skill, such as Repentence, not the major buffs.

The ring is still a Mythic item, taking up an armor slot. What it's got going for it now, outside of providing one-bar build support for people already playing such builds, is providing Major Courage instead of Major Brutality.

I'll go one giant step further and say if its going the named non-stack route, it should also have the minor version of every buff it has major versions of, and both major and minor brut/sorc (and berserk. and hell, maybe force, why not) and go all-in on that.

Its already not going to be competitive for any real purpose as is, where it was actually comparable to things like kilt and dd ring in its old state (most parses had it at ~80-85% of the power, with all of 2 being closer, the horror!), so it should at least shine in the content it could actually get used in.

PvXGamer

leave the major buffs and throw on all the minor buffs as well and make it unusable while transformed.

Merforum

Captain_OP wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

BroughBreaux wrote: »

Jman100582 wrote: »

BroughBreaux wrote: »

Jman100582 wrote: »

@BroughBreaux really? How hard is a two bar build compared to a one bar build? One literally has less skills which is my entire point. One has less management. One is easier to use. One is much much much easier to learn. Which is why it should be less powerful. You literally sacrifice power for the sake of ease of gameplay. That’s my whole point. The fact you can’t see that and are instead fixated on the idea that they should be equal is beyond me. There is a trade off to every playstyle, and it just happens that the trade off for one bar is less power because of less skills. That’s it. To try and argue that there shouldn’t be a trade off at all and that they should be equal in terms of power to a two bar build literally does not make sense. Much less putting the item required for it behind a paywall.

You just want a playstyle to have no trade offs. Which is fine to think I suppose, but if you think that’s ok for the sake of balance I’m very glad you aren’t a dev


*edit: yeah guess what? Maelstrom is p2w too. I don’t want the game to be p2w at all believe it or not

You're literally just not reading what I'm saying at this point and going back to a canned set of talking points.

Yeah the reason I go back to my talking points is because it’s my counter argument that you aren’t reading. Because you can’t argue against it, which is pretty obvious. “One bar builds don’t have as much dps and aren’t as viable!” And I respond with “yeah here’s x y and z as to why they SHOULDNT be as powerful” and your only response it “well I think they should be and you are wrong. But I won’t say why you’re wrong and will instead just disagree with you”

My points are very much valid, the trade offs of 1 bar vs 2 bars is more than fair. You’re very much lucky that they pull more than half of what two bar builds can do, which imo is what it should be at in terms of dps output. Using half the skills? Roughly half the dps. I’ve already had the light attack weave debate with way too many people and I’m glad that at the very least you don’t disagree with that. But anyways I’m sure half of this will get deleted and the thread will probably get locked, and maybe I’ll be hit with a ban for saying eso is p2w (it absolutely is and everybody who’s been around for at least the past 5 years knows this)

No you just demonstrated again you didn't read what I wrote.

BroughBreaux wrote: »

Yes, it is more complex, and one could say difficult, to do a 2bar rotation. That much I'm not questioning. I'm simply arguing that 1bar builds should not be performing as low as they are because, despite the rotation complexity being cut out, in the actual content, the player still has to have the same skill level and competence to actually do the content. I am also not saying they would be equal, I do think there should be a gap, a more complex rotation should yield better damage. What I'm taking issue with is that the gap is too big.

Anyway
This flowchart is what I'm taking issue with.

I never said they should be equal in power, in fact I just said there should be a gap. What I'm arguing is that because an individual still has the skill, aptitude, competence to run the content if they were to use a 2bar build as opposed to a 1bar build does not mean that they should then be locked out of the content on that one bar build

Barswapping and pressing 2 or 3 extra buttons in a rotation should not be the determinant factor for whether someone can participate in the endgame. The determinant factor should be the player's skill in the game, knowledge of the game, and ability to follow raid instructions. That is the skill gap in ESO and it always has been. I mean can we please stop pretending that you need a PhD in astrophysics to press the backbar button and reapply a dot or buff or aoe in a timely manner? This is pretty basic stuff, all you need to do is get proficient at it and learn the nuances to when you should barswap and the rest.
Besides, someone who can't barswap proficiently probably doesn't have the know-how to get good damage with the one bar they do have. What I'm saying is that people who are good at the game and want to use a one-bar build should be able to without such a ginormous and prohibitive gap like what exists now.


The limiting principle to all this is that you have to be competent when putting together a one-bar build. It is not the same as someone theoretically saying that you shouldn't have to use set bonuses to do endgame content and you should be able to use white non-set gear in vet trials, because sets are not a matter of playstyle preference whereas one-bar vs two-bar is.

You are right. I can't believe the gatekeepers can't stand the fact that there might be something in the game that has no effect on them but might help physically disabled to do endgame content. I played for 5+ years and know as much as any of the gatekeepers, just have arthritis which means I either lose 80% of damage potential or hurt myself. Because as you say this game is like 90% physical button mashing skill and 10% mental skill, whereas most other games are 50/50. It is about time ZOS starts to address this. If they got rid of light attack animation canceling next they'd have a fantastic game.

This to be honest, they should integrate the 'play how you want' in the game design too. Being a low APM player should not be punished, but beeing a high APM player should still be rewarded. The Oakensoul ring is is step into the right direction.

Yeah ZOS completely destroyed all the good HA sets just cause some PVPers don't like the 'HA style' NOT because it was OP at all. This whole idea that if something is less button mashing, means it is easy, and it must be WAY Worse HAS got to be ignored because it is totally stupid. There should be other playstyles allowed, 1 bar, low apm, HA, etc. The trick for ZOS is to make it work for the intended population while not being able to be abused and ruined by min/maxers. Here is an idea, how about put the original flat stats back and maybe a little more (like 10% increase in all damage), but make it 'not only' be 1 bar but make it so light attack animation cancelling doesn't work with the ring.

I've been testing oaken... on PTS and even after the nerfs I can do about 10-16% more damage (or about the same as my HA build pre-nerf) and sustain/survive a little better but the rotation is much easier. The real test will be if I can do better in PVP with it. That is where I am at the mercy of super high apm button mashers. But ZOS is definitely going the right direction with this type of item. So it is better for me than 2 bar, even simple sorc 2 bar and this is less stressful. If I am the intended user (people with disabilities), I can live with this, good job ZOS. I don't dummy hump so have no idea about those #s but on live I do about 15-18K dps single boss target and with Oaken on PTS its about 18-22K. Apparently alcast can still do 90+K on a dummy after nerf so not really sure about those who say it is useless, but if they buff it a little I wouldn't mind.

Honestly the lower APM and less worrying about buffs brings the game in line with a lot of other games. And I think can be very beneficial to the company. They need more stuff like this.

Patro

Changes to this mythic should at least be buffs hard to get and not buffs that you can already have from class skills and potions.

Jman100582

Merforum wrote: »

Captain_OP wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

BroughBreaux wrote: »

Jman100582 wrote: »

BroughBreaux wrote: »

Jman100582 wrote: »

@BroughBreaux really? How hard is a two bar build compared to a one bar build? One literally has less skills which is my entire point. One has less management. One is easier to use. One is much much much easier to learn. Which is why it should be less powerful. You literally sacrifice power for the sake of ease of gameplay. That’s my whole point. The fact you can’t see that and are instead fixated on the idea that they should be equal is beyond me. There is a trade off to every playstyle, and it just happens that the trade off for one bar is less power because of less skills. That’s it. To try and argue that there shouldn’t be a trade off at all and that they should be equal in terms of power to a two bar build literally does not make sense. Much less putting the item required for it behind a paywall.

You just want a playstyle to have no trade offs. Which is fine to think I suppose, but if you think that’s ok for the sake of balance I’m very glad you aren’t a dev


*edit: yeah guess what? Maelstrom is p2w too. I don’t want the game to be p2w at all believe it or not

You're literally just not reading what I'm saying at this point and going back to a canned set of talking points.

Yeah the reason I go back to my talking points is because it’s my counter argument that you aren’t reading. Because you can’t argue against it, which is pretty obvious. “One bar builds don’t have as much dps and aren’t as viable!” And I respond with “yeah here’s x y and z as to why they SHOULDNT be as powerful” and your only response it “well I think they should be and you are wrong. But I won’t say why you’re wrong and will instead just disagree with you”

My points are very much valid, the trade offs of 1 bar vs 2 bars is more than fair. You’re very much lucky that they pull more than half of what two bar builds can do, which imo is what it should be at in terms of dps output. Using half the skills? Roughly half the dps. I’ve already had the light attack weave debate with way too many people and I’m glad that at the very least you don’t disagree with that. But anyways I’m sure half of this will get deleted and the thread will probably get locked, and maybe I’ll be hit with a ban for saying eso is p2w (it absolutely is and everybody who’s been around for at least the past 5 years knows this)

No you just demonstrated again you didn't read what I wrote.

BroughBreaux wrote: »

Yes, it is more complex, and one could say difficult, to do a 2bar rotation. That much I'm not questioning. I'm simply arguing that 1bar builds should not be performing as low as they are because, despite the rotation complexity being cut out, in the actual content, the player still has to have the same skill level and competence to actually do the content. I am also not saying they would be equal, I do think there should be a gap, a more complex rotation should yield better damage. What I'm taking issue with is that the gap is too big.

Anyway
This flowchart is what I'm taking issue with.

I never said they should be equal in power, in fact I just said there should be a gap. What I'm arguing is that because an individual still has the skill, aptitude, competence to run the content if they were to use a 2bar build as opposed to a 1bar build does not mean that they should then be locked out of the content on that one bar build

Barswapping and pressing 2 or 3 extra buttons in a rotation should not be the determinant factor for whether someone can participate in the endgame. The determinant factor should be the player's skill in the game, knowledge of the game, and ability to follow raid instructions. That is the skill gap in ESO and it always has been. I mean can we please stop pretending that you need a PhD in astrophysics to press the backbar button and reapply a dot or buff or aoe in a timely manner? This is pretty basic stuff, all you need to do is get proficient at it and learn the nuances to when you should barswap and the rest.
Besides, someone who can't barswap proficiently probably doesn't have the know-how to get good damage with the one bar they do have. What I'm saying is that people who are good at the game and want to use a one-bar build should be able to without such a ginormous and prohibitive gap like what exists now.


The limiting principle to all this is that you have to be competent when putting together a one-bar build. It is not the same as someone theoretically saying that you shouldn't have to use set bonuses to do endgame content and you should be able to use white non-set gear in vet trials, because sets are not a matter of playstyle preference whereas one-bar vs two-bar is.

You are right. I can't believe the gatekeepers can't stand the fact that there might be something in the game that has no effect on them but might help physically disabled to do endgame content. I played for 5+ years and know as much as any of the gatekeepers, just have arthritis which means I either lose 80% of damage potential or hurt myself. Because as you say this game is like 90% physical button mashing skill and 10% mental skill, whereas most other games are 50/50. It is about time ZOS starts to address this. If they got rid of light attack animation canceling next they'd have a fantastic game.

This to be honest, they should integrate the 'play how you want' in the game design too. Being a low APM player should not be punished, but beeing a high APM player should still be rewarded. The Oakensoul ring is is step into the right direction.

Yeah ZOS completely destroyed all the good HA sets just cause some PVPers don't like the 'HA style' NOT because it was OP at all. This whole idea that if something is less button mashing, means it is easy, and it must be WAY Worse HAS got to be ignored because it is totally stupid. There should be other playstyles allowed, 1 bar, low apm, HA, etc. The trick for ZOS is to make it work for the intended population while not being able to be abused and ruined by min/maxers. Here is an idea, how about put the original flat stats back and maybe a little more (like 10% increase in all damage), but make it 'not only' be 1 bar but make it so light attack animation cancelling doesn't work with the ring.

I've been testing oaken... on PTS and even after the nerfs I can do about 10-16% more damage (or about the same as my HA build pre-nerf) and sustain/survive a little better but the rotation is much easier. The real test will be if I can do better in PVP with it. That is where I am at the mercy of super high apm button mashers. But ZOS is definitely going the right direction with this type of item. So it is better for me than 2 bar, even simple sorc 2 bar and this is less stressful. If I am the intended user (people with disabilities), I can live with this, good job ZOS. I don't dummy hump so have no idea about those #s but on live I do about 15-18K dps single boss target and with Oaken on PTS its about 18-22K. Apparently alcast can still do 90+K on a dummy after nerf so not really sure about those who say it is useless, but if they buff it a little I wouldn't mind.

Honestly the lower APM and less worrying about buffs brings the game in line with a lot of other games. And I think can be very beneficial to the company. They need more stuff like this.

Here’s the thing. Eso is not like other games. Which is what people like about it. Fast paced, fluid gameplay. High apm will always perform better, regardless of if you’re playing something like WoW or Eso. Engaging with the game more and actively doing more is rewarded. People with motor-disabilities and other things along that line will simply never be able to compete at the top. And it’s not your fault. Realistically, you will probably never manage to do vet trials such as sunspire and halls of fabrication. At least not without being carried. I’m completely fine with a raise the floor mythic. People shouldn’t be punished for having a disability that they did not ask for. But then the problem becomes how do you raise the floor without raising the ceiling too high and causing power creep on the high apm players on the other end of the spectrum. The ring pre-nerf raised the ceiling too high. Which wasn’t the intention of the mythic at all. Tacking on new buffs or unique stats to it won’t accomplish the goal of this mythic either. Which is SOLELY to raise the floor

It’s because of balancing issues like this that you can’t balance a game like eso around a small minority of the community that is disabled in some form. I am not sure what type of content it is you do (with 22k dps I’m going to assume mostly normal dungeons and overland, maybe some of the easier veg dungeons if you have a guildie helping you out) but if the mythic helps you clear that content more efficiently, then imo it has accomplished its purpose

Ps- just wanted to add that the pure heavy attack builds that did nothing but stand in the back and put down wall of elements and held L2 were nerfed because of how unengaging they were. Also they hit for 10-15k channeled dmg, which is around what most ultimates hit for in pvp. You could basically hit someone with back to back ultimate level damage while being a very long distance away. Which is pretty unbalanced, I shouldn’t be able to hit you with that much dmg with most abilities if you’re running a decently tanky build with the right defenses (ie 27k+ resistances, proper mitigation cp and gear etc), let alone with something as basic as a heavy attack

Merforum

Jman100582 wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Captain_OP wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

BroughBreaux wrote: »

Jman100582 wrote: »

BroughBreaux wrote: »

Jman100582 wrote: »

@BroughBreaux really? How hard is a two bar build compared to a one bar build? One literally has less skills which is my entire point. One has less management. One is easier to use. One is much much much easier to learn. Which is why it should be less powerful. You literally sacrifice power for the sake of ease of gameplay. That’s my whole point. The fact you can’t see that and are instead fixated on the idea that they should be equal is beyond me. There is a trade off to every playstyle, and it just happens that the trade off for one bar is less power because of less skills. That’s it. To try and argue that there shouldn’t be a trade off at all and that they should be equal in terms of power to a two bar build literally does not make sense. Much less putting the item required for it behind a paywall.

You just want a playstyle to have no trade offs. Which is fine to think I suppose, but if you think that’s ok for the sake of balance I’m very glad you aren’t a dev


*edit: yeah guess what? Maelstrom is p2w too. I don’t want the game to be p2w at all believe it or not

You're literally just not reading what I'm saying at this point and going back to a canned set of talking points.

Yeah the reason I go back to my talking points is because it’s my counter argument that you aren’t reading. Because you can’t argue against it, which is pretty obvious. “One bar builds don’t have as much dps and aren’t as viable!” And I respond with “yeah here’s x y and z as to why they SHOULDNT be as powerful” and your only response it “well I think they should be and you are wrong. But I won’t say why you’re wrong and will instead just disagree with you”

My points are very much valid, the trade offs of 1 bar vs 2 bars is more than fair. You’re very much lucky that they pull more than half of what two bar builds can do, which imo is what it should be at in terms of dps output. Using half the skills? Roughly half the dps. I’ve already had the light attack weave debate with way too many people and I’m glad that at the very least you don’t disagree with that. But anyways I’m sure half of this will get deleted and the thread will probably get locked, and maybe I’ll be hit with a ban for saying eso is p2w (it absolutely is and everybody who’s been around for at least the past 5 years knows this)

No you just demonstrated again you didn't read what I wrote.

BroughBreaux wrote: »

Yes, it is more complex, and one could say difficult, to do a 2bar rotation. That much I'm not questioning. I'm simply arguing that 1bar builds should not be performing as low as they are because, despite the rotation complexity being cut out, in the actual content, the player still has to have the same skill level and competence to actually do the content. I am also not saying they would be equal, I do think there should be a gap, a more complex rotation should yield better damage. What I'm taking issue with is that the gap is too big.

Anyway
This flowchart is what I'm taking issue with.

I never said they should be equal in power, in fact I just said there should be a gap. What I'm arguing is that because an individual still has the skill, aptitude, competence to run the content if they were to use a 2bar build as opposed to a 1bar build does not mean that they should then be locked out of the content on that one bar build

Barswapping and pressing 2 or 3 extra buttons in a rotation should not be the determinant factor for whether someone can participate in the endgame. The determinant factor should be the player's skill in the game, knowledge of the game, and ability to follow raid instructions. That is the skill gap in ESO and it always has been. I mean can we please stop pretending that you need a PhD in astrophysics to press the backbar button and reapply a dot or buff or aoe in a timely manner? This is pretty basic stuff, all you need to do is get proficient at it and learn the nuances to when you should barswap and the rest.
Besides, someone who can't barswap proficiently probably doesn't have the know-how to get good damage with the one bar they do have. What I'm saying is that people who are good at the game and want to use a one-bar build should be able to without such a ginormous and prohibitive gap like what exists now.


The limiting principle to all this is that you have to be competent when putting together a one-bar build. It is not the same as someone theoretically saying that you shouldn't have to use set bonuses to do endgame content and you should be able to use white non-set gear in vet trials, because sets are not a matter of playstyle preference whereas one-bar vs two-bar is.

You are right. I can't believe the gatekeepers can't stand the fact that there might be something in the game that has no effect on them but might help physically disabled to do endgame content. I played for 5+ years and know as much as any of the gatekeepers, just have arthritis which means I either lose 80% of damage potential or hurt myself. Because as you say this game is like 90% physical button mashing skill and 10% mental skill, whereas most other games are 50/50. It is about time ZOS starts to address this. If they got rid of light attack animation canceling next they'd have a fantastic game.

This to be honest, they should integrate the 'play how you want' in the game design too. Being a low APM player should not be punished, but beeing a high APM player should still be rewarded. The Oakensoul ring is is step into the right direction.

Yeah ZOS completely destroyed all the good HA sets just cause some PVPers don't like the 'HA style' NOT because it was OP at all. This whole idea that if something is less button mashing, means it is easy, and it must be WAY Worse HAS got to be ignored because it is totally stupid. There should be other playstyles allowed, 1 bar, low apm, HA, etc. The trick for ZOS is to make it work for the intended population while not being able to be abused and ruined by min/maxers. Here is an idea, how about put the original flat stats back and maybe a little more (like 10% increase in all damage), but make it 'not only' be 1 bar but make it so light attack animation cancelling doesn't work with the ring.

I've been testing oaken... on PTS and even after the nerfs I can do about 10-16% more damage (or about the same as my HA build pre-nerf) and sustain/survive a little better but the rotation is much easier. The real test will be if I can do better in PVP with it. That is where I am at the mercy of super high apm button mashers. But ZOS is definitely going the right direction with this type of item. So it is better for me than 2 bar, even simple sorc 2 bar and this is less stressful. If I am the intended user (people with disabilities), I can live with this, good job ZOS. I don't dummy hump so have no idea about those #s but on live I do about 15-18K dps single boss target and with Oaken on PTS its about 18-22K. Apparently alcast can still do 90+K on a dummy after nerf so not really sure about those who say it is useless, but if they buff it a little I wouldn't mind.

Honestly the lower APM and less worrying about buffs brings the game in line with a lot of other games. And I think can be very beneficial to the company. They need more stuff like this.

Here’s the thing. Eso is not like other games. Which is what people like about it. Fast paced, fluid gameplay. High apm will always perform better, regardless of if you’re playing something like WoW or Eso. Engaging with the game more and actively doing more is rewarded. People with motor-disabilities and other things along that line will simply never be able to compete at the top. And it’s not your fault. Realistically, you will probably never manage to do vet trials such as sunspire and halls of fabrication. At least not without being carried. I’m completely fine with a raise the floor mythic. People shouldn’t be punished for having a disability that they did not ask for. But then the problem becomes how do you raise the floor without raising the ceiling too high and causing power creep on the high apm players on the other end of the spectrum. The ring pre-nerf raised the ceiling too high. Which wasn’t the intention of the mythic at all. Tacking on new buffs or unique stats to it won’t accomplish the goal of this mythic either. Which is SOLELY to raise the floor

It’s because of balancing issues like this that you can’t balance a game like eso around a small minority of the community that is disabled in some form. I am not sure what type of content it is you do (with 22k dps I’m going to assume mostly normal dungeons and overland, maybe some of the easier veg dungeons if you have a guildie helping you out) but if the mythic helps you clear that content more efficiently, then imo it has accomplished its purpose

Ps- just wanted to add that the pure heavy attack builds that did nothing but stand in the back and put down wall of elements and held L2 were nerfed because of how unengaging they were. Also they hit for 10-15k channeled dmg, which is around what most ultimates hit for in pvp. You could basically hit someone with back to back ultimate level damage while being a very long distance away. Which is pretty unbalanced, I shouldn’t be able to hit you with that much dmg with most abilities if you’re running a decently tanky build with the right defenses (ie 27k+ resistances, proper mitigation cp and gear etc), let alone with something as basic as a heavy attack

I don't know if you realize how condescending you come off, nobody is asking for your permission how they want to enjoy the game. Contrary to your belief mashing button super fast until it is 'second nature' is NOT a skill that should be rewarder by 3,4,5 TIMES as much damage.

I agree with you agreeing with what I already said, that ZOS just needs any item like this to help raise the floor WITHOUT being abused by min/maxers. And IMO the most ideal way to do that like I said would be to beef up the stats like they were, keep the 1 bar requirement AND also make LA on GCD with all skills and/or crit chance is capped at 50%.

In a way I think malacath was trying to do this too because the biggest difference between HIGH DPS and low/mid other than apm is LA AC and CRIT off the charts. I kind of think thrassian was trying to do this too but ZOS nerfed into the ground. Without saying anything I do believe ZOS has been trying to raise the floor but to date has been missing the mark, hopefully they know enough now to make oaken a success.

BTW even in nerfed stated my testing on PTS has shown that it is better than pale order for solo play for me, because it adds enough to defense to survive almost anything with 1 slot heal. And all the other benefits make it way better than pale order. Here's an interesting idea, what about a mythic that gives 20% damage + 20% healing based off damage and is 1 bar.

Or here's another idea what about allowing 2 mythics but if you do your backbar is disabled and LA is on GCD and/or crit chance is capped at 50%.

Jman100582

Merforum wrote: »

Jman100582 wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Captain_OP wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

BroughBreaux wrote: »

Jman100582 wrote: »

BroughBreaux wrote: »

Jman100582 wrote: »

@BroughBreaux really? How hard is a two bar build compared to a one bar build? One literally has less skills which is my entire point. One has less management. One is easier to use. One is much much much easier to learn. Which is why it should be less powerful. You literally sacrifice power for the sake of ease of gameplay. That’s my whole point. The fact you can’t see that and are instead fixated on the idea that they should be equal is beyond me. There is a trade off to every playstyle, and it just happens that the trade off for one bar is less power because of less skills. That’s it. To try and argue that there shouldn’t be a trade off at all and that they should be equal in terms of power to a two bar build literally does not make sense. Much less putting the item required for it behind a paywall.

You just want a playstyle to have no trade offs. Which is fine to think I suppose, but if you think that’s ok for the sake of balance I’m very glad you aren’t a dev


*edit: yeah guess what? Maelstrom is p2w too. I don’t want the game to be p2w at all believe it or not

You're literally just not reading what I'm saying at this point and going back to a canned set of talking points.

Yeah the reason I go back to my talking points is because it’s my counter argument that you aren’t reading. Because you can’t argue against it, which is pretty obvious. “One bar builds don’t have as much dps and aren’t as viable!” And I respond with “yeah here’s x y and z as to why they SHOULDNT be as powerful” and your only response it “well I think they should be and you are wrong. But I won’t say why you’re wrong and will instead just disagree with you”

My points are very much valid, the trade offs of 1 bar vs 2 bars is more than fair. You’re very much lucky that they pull more than half of what two bar builds can do, which imo is what it should be at in terms of dps output. Using half the skills? Roughly half the dps. I’ve already had the light attack weave debate with way too many people and I’m glad that at the very least you don’t disagree with that. But anyways I’m sure half of this will get deleted and the thread will probably get locked, and maybe I’ll be hit with a ban for saying eso is p2w (it absolutely is and everybody who’s been around for at least the past 5 years knows this)

No you just demonstrated again you didn't read what I wrote.

BroughBreaux wrote: »

Yes, it is more complex, and one could say difficult, to do a 2bar rotation. That much I'm not questioning. I'm simply arguing that 1bar builds should not be performing as low as they are because, despite the rotation complexity being cut out, in the actual content, the player still has to have the same skill level and competence to actually do the content. I am also not saying they would be equal, I do think there should be a gap, a more complex rotation should yield better damage. What I'm taking issue with is that the gap is too big.

Anyway
This flowchart is what I'm taking issue with.

I never said they should be equal in power, in fact I just said there should be a gap. What I'm arguing is that because an individual still has the skill, aptitude, competence to run the content if they were to use a 2bar build as opposed to a 1bar build does not mean that they should then be locked out of the content on that one bar build

Barswapping and pressing 2 or 3 extra buttons in a rotation should not be the determinant factor for whether someone can participate in the endgame. The determinant factor should be the player's skill in the game, knowledge of the game, and ability to follow raid instructions. That is the skill gap in ESO and it always has been. I mean can we please stop pretending that you need a PhD in astrophysics to press the backbar button and reapply a dot or buff or aoe in a timely manner? This is pretty basic stuff, all you need to do is get proficient at it and learn the nuances to when you should barswap and the rest.
Besides, someone who can't barswap proficiently probably doesn't have the know-how to get good damage with the one bar they do have. What I'm saying is that people who are good at the game and want to use a one-bar build should be able to without such a ginormous and prohibitive gap like what exists now.


The limiting principle to all this is that you have to be competent when putting together a one-bar build. It is not the same as someone theoretically saying that you shouldn't have to use set bonuses to do endgame content and you should be able to use white non-set gear in vet trials, because sets are not a matter of playstyle preference whereas one-bar vs two-bar is.

You are right. I can't believe the gatekeepers can't stand the fact that there might be something in the game that has no effect on them but might help physically disabled to do endgame content. I played for 5+ years and know as much as any of the gatekeepers, just have arthritis which means I either lose 80% of damage potential or hurt myself. Because as you say this game is like 90% physical button mashing skill and 10% mental skill, whereas most other games are 50/50. It is about time ZOS starts to address this. If they got rid of light attack animation canceling next they'd have a fantastic game.

This to be honest, they should integrate the 'play how you want' in the game design too. Being a low APM player should not be punished, but beeing a high APM player should still be rewarded. The Oakensoul ring is is step into the right direction.

Yeah ZOS completely destroyed all the good HA sets just cause some PVPers don't like the 'HA style' NOT because it was OP at all. This whole idea that if something is less button mashing, means it is easy, and it must be WAY Worse HAS got to be ignored because it is totally stupid. There should be other playstyles allowed, 1 bar, low apm, HA, etc. The trick for ZOS is to make it work for the intended population while not being able to be abused and ruined by min/maxers. Here is an idea, how about put the original flat stats back and maybe a little more (like 10% increase in all damage), but make it 'not only' be 1 bar but make it so light attack animation cancelling doesn't work with the ring.

I've been testing oaken... on PTS and even after the nerfs I can do about 10-16% more damage (or about the same as my HA build pre-nerf) and sustain/survive a little better but the rotation is much easier. The real test will be if I can do better in PVP with it. That is where I am at the mercy of super high apm button mashers. But ZOS is definitely going the right direction with this type of item. So it is better for me than 2 bar, even simple sorc 2 bar and this is less stressful. If I am the intended user (people with disabilities), I can live with this, good job ZOS. I don't dummy hump so have no idea about those #s but on live I do about 15-18K dps single boss target and with Oaken on PTS its about 18-22K. Apparently alcast can still do 90+K on a dummy after nerf so not really sure about those who say it is useless, but if they buff it a little I wouldn't mind.

Honestly the lower APM and less worrying about buffs brings the game in line with a lot of other games. And I think can be very beneficial to the company. They need more stuff like this.

Here’s the thing. Eso is not like other games. Which is what people like about it. Fast paced, fluid gameplay. High apm will always perform better, regardless of if you’re playing something like WoW or Eso. Engaging with the game more and actively doing more is rewarded. People with motor-disabilities and other things along that line will simply never be able to compete at the top. And it’s not your fault. Realistically, you will probably never manage to do vet trials such as sunspire and halls of fabrication. At least not without being carried. I’m completely fine with a raise the floor mythic. People shouldn’t be punished for having a disability that they did not ask for. But then the problem becomes how do you raise the floor without raising the ceiling too high and causing power creep on the high apm players on the other end of the spectrum. The ring pre-nerf raised the ceiling too high. Which wasn’t the intention of the mythic at all. Tacking on new buffs or unique stats to it won’t accomplish the goal of this mythic either. Which is SOLELY to raise the floor

It’s because of balancing issues like this that you can’t balance a game like eso around a small minority of the community that is disabled in some form. I am not sure what type of content it is you do (with 22k dps I’m going to assume mostly normal dungeons and overland, maybe some of the easier veg dungeons if you have a guildie helping you out) but if the mythic helps you clear that content more efficiently, then imo it has accomplished its purpose

Ps- just wanted to add that the pure heavy attack builds that did nothing but stand in the back and put down wall of elements and held L2 were nerfed because of how unengaging they were. Also they hit for 10-15k channeled dmg, which is around what most ultimates hit for in pvp. You could basically hit someone with back to back ultimate level damage while being a very long distance away. Which is pretty unbalanced, I shouldn’t be able to hit you with that much dmg with most abilities if you’re running a decently tanky build with the right defenses (ie 27k+ resistances, proper mitigation cp and gear etc), let alone with something as basic as a heavy attack

I don't know if you realize how condescending you come off, nobody is asking for your permission how they want to enjoy the game. Contrary to your belief mashing button super fast until it is 'second nature' is NOT a skill that should be rewarder by 3,4,5 TIMES as much damage.

I agree with you agreeing with what I already said, that ZOS just needs any item like this to help raise the floor WITHOUT being abused by min/maxers. And IMO the most ideal way to do that like I said would be to beef up the stats like they were, keep the 1 bar requirement AND also make LA on GCD with all skills and/or crit chance is capped at 50%.

In a way I think malacath was trying to do this too because the biggest difference between HIGH DPS and low/mid other than apm is LA AC and CRIT off the charts. I kind of think thrassian was trying to do this too but ZOS nerfed into the ground. Without saying anything I do believe ZOS has been trying to raise the floor but to date has been missing the mark, hopefully they know enough now to make oaken a success.

BTW even in nerfed stated my testing on PTS has shown that it is better than pale order for solo play for me, because it adds enough to defense to survive almost anything with 1 slot heal. And all the other benefits make it way better than pale order. Here's an interesting idea, what about a mythic that gives 20% damage + 20% healing based off damage and is 1 bar.

Or here's another idea what about allowing 2 mythics but if you do your backbar is disabled and LA is on GCD and/or crit chance is capped at 50%.

Please, you can play how you want. But that doesn’t mean that all play styles are balanced. Especially when you are ignoring basic game mechanics like barswapping. And using more abilities. I wouldn’t mind a mythic that just does something to heavy attacks. Like makes them deal more damage to monsters, so it doesn’t carry over to pvp. Or makes it so that after you heavy attack your next dmg does x% more dmg, so it still incentivizes using more abilities

Play how you want has never meant that all play styles are equal. That is a known fact. It is not me being condescending, it’s me being honest about the state of the game. Should more play styles be equal? Sure. But only play styles that still involve you know…playing the game. Using your abilities to heal and do damage. Does doing a heavy attack inbetween casting abilities count towards that? I think so. If heavy attacks increased the damage of abilities similar to something like the heavy attack passive that 2h has, that would be more than fine imo. Grant it, it’s my opinion. And I am entitled to it. I don’t think playstyles that actively encourage a player to do less and get the same amount should be encourage

Taking my example for heavy attacks increasing the damage of your next ability vs a light attack parse, in reality they both do the same amount of inputs. Just at a different pace. Ofc if something like that were to be added other things would need to be adjusted. That would be a healthy change imo

Merforum

Jman100582 wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Jman100582 wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Captain_OP wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

BroughBreaux wrote: »

Jman100582 wrote: »

BroughBreaux wrote: »

Jman100582 wrote: »

@BroughBreaux really? How hard is a two bar build compared to a one bar build? One literally has less skills which is my entire point. One has less management. One is easier to use. One is much much much easier to learn. Which is why it should be less powerful. You literally sacrifice power for the sake of ease of gameplay. That’s my whole point. The fact you can’t see that and are instead fixated on the idea that they should be equal is beyond me. There is a trade off to every playstyle, and it just happens that the trade off for one bar is less power because of less skills. That’s it. To try and argue that there shouldn’t be a trade off at all and that they should be equal in terms of power to a two bar build literally does not make sense. Much less putting the item required for it behind a paywall.

You just want a playstyle to have no trade offs. Which is fine to think I suppose, but if you think that’s ok for the sake of balance I’m very glad you aren’t a dev


*edit: yeah guess what? Maelstrom is p2w too. I don’t want the game to be p2w at all believe it or not

You're literally just not reading what I'm saying at this point and going back to a canned set of talking points.

Yeah the reason I go back to my talking points is because it’s my counter argument that you aren’t reading. Because you can’t argue against it, which is pretty obvious. “One bar builds don’t have as much dps and aren’t as viable!” And I respond with “yeah here’s x y and z as to why they SHOULDNT be as powerful” and your only response it “well I think they should be and you are wrong. But I won’t say why you’re wrong and will instead just disagree with you”

My points are very much valid, the trade offs of 1 bar vs 2 bars is more than fair. You’re very much lucky that they pull more than half of what two bar builds can do, which imo is what it should be at in terms of dps output. Using half the skills? Roughly half the dps. I’ve already had the light attack weave debate with way too many people and I’m glad that at the very least you don’t disagree with that. But anyways I’m sure half of this will get deleted and the thread will probably get locked, and maybe I’ll be hit with a ban for saying eso is p2w (it absolutely is and everybody who’s been around for at least the past 5 years knows this)

No you just demonstrated again you didn't read what I wrote.

BroughBreaux wrote: »

Yes, it is more complex, and one could say difficult, to do a 2bar rotation. That much I'm not questioning. I'm simply arguing that 1bar builds should not be performing as low as they are because, despite the rotation complexity being cut out, in the actual content, the player still has to have the same skill level and competence to actually do the content. I am also not saying they would be equal, I do think there should be a gap, a more complex rotation should yield better damage. What I'm taking issue with is that the gap is too big.

Anyway
This flowchart is what I'm taking issue with.

I never said they should be equal in power, in fact I just said there should be a gap. What I'm arguing is that because an individual still has the skill, aptitude, competence to run the content if they were to use a 2bar build as opposed to a 1bar build does not mean that they should then be locked out of the content on that one bar build

Barswapping and pressing 2 or 3 extra buttons in a rotation should not be the determinant factor for whether someone can participate in the endgame. The determinant factor should be the player's skill in the game, knowledge of the game, and ability to follow raid instructions. That is the skill gap in ESO and it always has been. I mean can we please stop pretending that you need a PhD in astrophysics to press the backbar button and reapply a dot or buff or aoe in a timely manner? This is pretty basic stuff, all you need to do is get proficient at it and learn the nuances to when you should barswap and the rest.
Besides, someone who can't barswap proficiently probably doesn't have the know-how to get good damage with the one bar they do have. What I'm saying is that people who are good at the game and want to use a one-bar build should be able to without such a ginormous and prohibitive gap like what exists now.


The limiting principle to all this is that you have to be competent when putting together a one-bar build. It is not the same as someone theoretically saying that you shouldn't have to use set bonuses to do endgame content and you should be able to use white non-set gear in vet trials, because sets are not a matter of playstyle preference whereas one-bar vs two-bar is.

You are right. I can't believe the gatekeepers can't stand the fact that there might be something in the game that has no effect on them but might help physically disabled to do endgame content. I played for 5+ years and know as much as any of the gatekeepers, just have arthritis which means I either lose 80% of damage potential or hurt myself. Because as you say this game is like 90% physical button mashing skill and 10% mental skill, whereas most other games are 50/50. It is about time ZOS starts to address this. If they got rid of light attack animation canceling next they'd have a fantastic game.

This to be honest, they should integrate the 'play how you want' in the game design too. Being a low APM player should not be punished, but beeing a high APM player should still be rewarded. The Oakensoul ring is is step into the right direction.

Yeah ZOS completely destroyed all the good HA sets just cause some PVPers don't like the 'HA style' NOT because it was OP at all. This whole idea that if something is less button mashing, means it is easy, and it must be WAY Worse HAS got to be ignored because it is totally stupid. There should be other playstyles allowed, 1 bar, low apm, HA, etc. The trick for ZOS is to make it work for the intended population while not being able to be abused and ruined by min/maxers. Here is an idea, how about put the original flat stats back and maybe a little more (like 10% increase in all damage), but make it 'not only' be 1 bar but make it so light attack animation cancelling doesn't work with the ring.

I've been testing oaken... on PTS and even after the nerfs I can do about 10-16% more damage (or about the same as my HA build pre-nerf) and sustain/survive a little better but the rotation is much easier. The real test will be if I can do better in PVP with it. That is where I am at the mercy of super high apm button mashers. But ZOS is definitely going the right direction with this type of item. So it is better for me than 2 bar, even simple sorc 2 bar and this is less stressful. If I am the intended user (people with disabilities), I can live with this, good job ZOS. I don't dummy hump so have no idea about those #s but on live I do about 15-18K dps single boss target and with Oaken on PTS its about 18-22K. Apparently alcast can still do 90+K on a dummy after nerf so not really sure about those who say it is useless, but if they buff it a little I wouldn't mind.

Honestly the lower APM and less worrying about buffs brings the game in line with a lot of other games. And I think can be very beneficial to the company. They need more stuff like this.

Here’s the thing. Eso is not like other games. Which is what people like about it. Fast paced, fluid gameplay. High apm will always perform better, regardless of if you’re playing something like WoW or Eso. Engaging with the game more and actively doing more is rewarded. People with motor-disabilities and other things along that line will simply never be able to compete at the top. And it’s not your fault. Realistically, you will probably never manage to do vet trials such as sunspire and halls of fabrication. At least not without being carried. I’m completely fine with a raise the floor mythic. People shouldn’t be punished for having a disability that they did not ask for. But then the problem becomes how do you raise the floor without raising the ceiling too high and causing power creep on the high apm players on the other end of the spectrum. The ring pre-nerf raised the ceiling too high. Which wasn’t the intention of the mythic at all. Tacking on new buffs or unique stats to it won’t accomplish the goal of this mythic either. Which is SOLELY to raise the floor

It’s because of balancing issues like this that you can’t balance a game like eso around a small minority of the community that is disabled in some form. I am not sure what type of content it is you do (with 22k dps I’m going to assume mostly normal dungeons and overland, maybe some of the easier veg dungeons if you have a guildie helping you out) but if the mythic helps you clear that content more efficiently, then imo it has accomplished its purpose

Ps- just wanted to add that the pure heavy attack builds that did nothing but stand in the back and put down wall of elements and held L2 were nerfed because of how unengaging they were. Also they hit for 10-15k channeled dmg, which is around what most ultimates hit for in pvp. You could basically hit someone with back to back ultimate level damage while being a very long distance away. Which is pretty unbalanced, I shouldn’t be able to hit you with that much dmg with most abilities if you’re running a decently tanky build with the right defenses (ie 27k+ resistances, proper mitigation cp and gear etc), let alone with something as basic as a heavy attack

I don't know if you realize how condescending you come off, nobody is asking for your permission how they want to enjoy the game. Contrary to your belief mashing button super fast until it is 'second nature' is NOT a skill that should be rewarder by 3,4,5 TIMES as much damage.

I agree with you agreeing with what I already said, that ZOS just needs any item like this to help raise the floor WITHOUT being abused by min/maxers. And IMO the most ideal way to do that like I said would be to beef up the stats like they were, keep the 1 bar requirement AND also make LA on GCD with all skills and/or crit chance is capped at 50%.

In a way I think malacath was trying to do this too because the biggest difference between HIGH DPS and low/mid other than apm is LA AC and CRIT off the charts. I kind of think thrassian was trying to do this too but ZOS nerfed into the ground. Without saying anything I do believe ZOS has been trying to raise the floor but to date has been missing the mark, hopefully they know enough now to make oaken a success.

BTW even in nerfed stated my testing on PTS has shown that it is better than pale order for solo play for me, because it adds enough to defense to survive almost anything with 1 slot heal. And all the other benefits make it way better than pale order. Here's an interesting idea, what about a mythic that gives 20% damage + 20% healing based off damage and is 1 bar.

Or here's another idea what about allowing 2 mythics but if you do your backbar is disabled and LA is on GCD and/or crit chance is capped at 50%.

Please, you can play how you want. But that doesn’t mean that all play styles are balanced. Especially when you are ignoring basic game mechanics like barswapping. And using more abilities. I wouldn’t mind a mythic that just does something to heavy attacks. Like makes them deal more damage to monsters, so it doesn’t carry over to pve. Or makes it so that after you heavy attack your next dmg does x% more dmg, so it still incentivizes using more abilities

Play how you want has never meant that all play styles are equal. That is a known fact. It is not me being condescending, it’s me being honest about the state of the game. Should more play styles be equal? Sure. But only play styles that still involve you know…playing the game. Using your abilities to heal and do damage. Does doing a heavy attack inbetween casting abilities count towards that? I think so. If heavy attacks increased the damage of abilities similar to something like the heavy attack passive that 2h has, that would be more than fine imo. Grant it, it’s my opinion. And I am entitled to it. I don’t think playstyles that actively encourage a player to do less and get the same amount should be encourage

Taking my example for heavy attacks increasing the damage of your next ability vs a light attack parse, in reality they both do the same amount of inputs. Just at a different pace. Ofc if something like that were to be added other things would need to be adjusted. That would be a healthy change imo

The problem is your opinion is not objective at all, you are talking about what YOU like or YOU do and wanting that to stay OP compared to every other way to do it. Also it is absurd that higher APM should justify 3-4 TIMES the damage. Once someone LEARNS their rotation it is second nature, by your argument since it become EASIER for you to do instead of giving more damage as you get better you should do LESS damage, RIGHT?

But also you fail to realize the difficulties inherent in things like HEAVY attack. it is slow not because player input but because it locks you in the animation and if you stop early you get NOTHING or with shock staff you get less ticks. That is how LA animation canceling should be, if you do it the LA damage SHOULD NOT REGISTER.

Also you fail to understand that while I am sitting in a HA animation and a monster or player bashes me, I lose attack and am stunned or off balance and easy target. Just for that reason alone, if you pull off a Heavy you should get way more damage but YOU DO NOT, and it keeps getting nerfed. Realistically ZOS needs a hard cap on s/d dmg at about 7K and cap crit CHANCE at 50% and put LA on skill GCD (which can be less than 1 sec to make game as fast paced as they want), then they'll have something really good.

Jman100582

Merforum wrote: »

Jman100582 wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Jman100582 wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Captain_OP wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

BroughBreaux wrote: »

Jman100582 wrote: »

BroughBreaux wrote: »

Jman100582 wrote: »

@BroughBreaux really? How hard is a two bar build compared to a one bar build? One literally has less skills which is my entire point. One has less management. One is easier to use. One is much much much easier to learn. Which is why it should be less powerful. You literally sacrifice power for the sake of ease of gameplay. That’s my whole point. The fact you can’t see that and are instead fixated on the idea that they should be equal is beyond me. There is a trade off to every playstyle, and it just happens that the trade off for one bar is less power because of less skills. That’s it. To try and argue that there shouldn’t be a trade off at all and that they should be equal in terms of power to a two bar build literally does not make sense. Much less putting the item required for it behind a paywall.

You just want a playstyle to have no trade offs. Which is fine to think I suppose, but if you think that’s ok for the sake of balance I’m very glad you aren’t a dev


*edit: yeah guess what? Maelstrom is p2w too. I don’t want the game to be p2w at all believe it or not

You're literally just not reading what I'm saying at this point and going back to a canned set of talking points.

Yeah the reason I go back to my talking points is because it’s my counter argument that you aren’t reading. Because you can’t argue against it, which is pretty obvious. “One bar builds don’t have as much dps and aren’t as viable!” And I respond with “yeah here’s x y and z as to why they SHOULDNT be as powerful” and your only response it “well I think they should be and you are wrong. But I won’t say why you’re wrong and will instead just disagree with you”

My points are very much valid, the trade offs of 1 bar vs 2 bars is more than fair. You’re very much lucky that they pull more than half of what two bar builds can do, which imo is what it should be at in terms of dps output. Using half the skills? Roughly half the dps. I’ve already had the light attack weave debate with way too many people and I’m glad that at the very least you don’t disagree with that. But anyways I’m sure half of this will get deleted and the thread will probably get locked, and maybe I’ll be hit with a ban for saying eso is p2w (it absolutely is and everybody who’s been around for at least the past 5 years knows this)

No you just demonstrated again you didn't read what I wrote.

BroughBreaux wrote: »

Yes, it is more complex, and one could say difficult, to do a 2bar rotation. That much I'm not questioning. I'm simply arguing that 1bar builds should not be performing as low as they are because, despite the rotation complexity being cut out, in the actual content, the player still has to have the same skill level and competence to actually do the content. I am also not saying they would be equal, I do think there should be a gap, a more complex rotation should yield better damage. What I'm taking issue with is that the gap is too big.

Anyway
This flowchart is what I'm taking issue with.

I never said they should be equal in power, in fact I just said there should be a gap. What I'm arguing is that because an individual still has the skill, aptitude, competence to run the content if they were to use a 2bar build as opposed to a 1bar build does not mean that they should then be locked out of the content on that one bar build

Barswapping and pressing 2 or 3 extra buttons in a rotation should not be the determinant factor for whether someone can participate in the endgame. The determinant factor should be the player's skill in the game, knowledge of the game, and ability to follow raid instructions. That is the skill gap in ESO and it always has been. I mean can we please stop pretending that you need a PhD in astrophysics to press the backbar button and reapply a dot or buff or aoe in a timely manner? This is pretty basic stuff, all you need to do is get proficient at it and learn the nuances to when you should barswap and the rest.
Besides, someone who can't barswap proficiently probably doesn't have the know-how to get good damage with the one bar they do have. What I'm saying is that people who are good at the game and want to use a one-bar build should be able to without such a ginormous and prohibitive gap like what exists now.


The limiting principle to all this is that you have to be competent when putting together a one-bar build. It is not the same as someone theoretically saying that you shouldn't have to use set bonuses to do endgame content and you should be able to use white non-set gear in vet trials, because sets are not a matter of playstyle preference whereas one-bar vs two-bar is.

You are right. I can't believe the gatekeepers can't stand the fact that there might be something in the game that has no effect on them but might help physically disabled to do endgame content. I played for 5+ years and know as much as any of the gatekeepers, just have arthritis which means I either lose 80% of damage potential or hurt myself. Because as you say this game is like 90% physical button mashing skill and 10% mental skill, whereas most other games are 50/50. It is about time ZOS starts to address this. If they got rid of light attack animation canceling next they'd have a fantastic game.

This to be honest, they should integrate the 'play how you want' in the game design too. Being a low APM player should not be punished, but beeing a high APM player should still be rewarded. The Oakensoul ring is is step into the right direction.

Yeah ZOS completely destroyed all the good HA sets just cause some PVPers don't like the 'HA style' NOT because it was OP at all. This whole idea that if something is less button mashing, means it is easy, and it must be WAY Worse HAS got to be ignored because it is totally stupid. There should be other playstyles allowed, 1 bar, low apm, HA, etc. The trick for ZOS is to make it work for the intended population while not being able to be abused and ruined by min/maxers. Here is an idea, how about put the original flat stats back and maybe a little more (like 10% increase in all damage), but make it 'not only' be 1 bar but make it so light attack animation cancelling doesn't work with the ring.

I've been testing oaken... on PTS and even after the nerfs I can do about 10-16% more damage (or about the same as my HA build pre-nerf) and sustain/survive a little better but the rotation is much easier. The real test will be if I can do better in PVP with it. That is where I am at the mercy of super high apm button mashers. But ZOS is definitely going the right direction with this type of item. So it is better for me than 2 bar, even simple sorc 2 bar and this is less stressful. If I am the intended user (people with disabilities), I can live with this, good job ZOS. I don't dummy hump so have no idea about those #s but on live I do about 15-18K dps single boss target and with Oaken on PTS its about 18-22K. Apparently alcast can still do 90+K on a dummy after nerf so not really sure about those who say it is useless, but if they buff it a little I wouldn't mind.

Honestly the lower APM and less worrying about buffs brings the game in line with a lot of other games. And I think can be very beneficial to the company. They need more stuff like this.

Here’s the thing. Eso is not like other games. Which is what people like about it. Fast paced, fluid gameplay. High apm will always perform better, regardless of if you’re playing something like WoW or Eso. Engaging with the game more and actively doing more is rewarded. People with motor-disabilities and other things along that line will simply never be able to compete at the top. And it’s not your fault. Realistically, you will probably never manage to do vet trials such as sunspire and halls of fabrication. At least not without being carried. I’m completely fine with a raise the floor mythic. People shouldn’t be punished for having a disability that they did not ask for. But then the problem becomes how do you raise the floor without raising the ceiling too high and causing power creep on the high apm players on the other end of the spectrum. The ring pre-nerf raised the ceiling too high. Which wasn’t the intention of the mythic at all. Tacking on new buffs or unique stats to it won’t accomplish the goal of this mythic either. Which is SOLELY to raise the floor

It’s because of balancing issues like this that you can’t balance a game like eso around a small minority of the community that is disabled in some form. I am not sure what type of content it is you do (with 22k dps I’m going to assume mostly normal dungeons and overland, maybe some of the easier veg dungeons if you have a guildie helping you out) but if the mythic helps you clear that content more efficiently, then imo it has accomplished its purpose

Ps- just wanted to add that the pure heavy attack builds that did nothing but stand in the back and put down wall of elements and held L2 were nerfed because of how unengaging they were. Also they hit for 10-15k channeled dmg, which is around what most ultimates hit for in pvp. You could basically hit someone with back to back ultimate level damage while being a very long distance away. Which is pretty unbalanced, I shouldn’t be able to hit you with that much dmg with most abilities if you’re running a decently tanky build with the right defenses (ie 27k+ resistances, proper mitigation cp and gear etc), let alone with something as basic as a heavy attack

I don't know if you realize how condescending you come off, nobody is asking for your permission how they want to enjoy the game. Contrary to your belief mashing button super fast until it is 'second nature' is NOT a skill that should be rewarder by 3,4,5 TIMES as much damage.

I agree with you agreeing with what I already said, that ZOS just needs any item like this to help raise the floor WITHOUT being abused by min/maxers. And IMO the most ideal way to do that like I said would be to beef up the stats like they were, keep the 1 bar requirement AND also make LA on GCD with all skills and/or crit chance is capped at 50%.

In a way I think malacath was trying to do this too because the biggest difference between HIGH DPS and low/mid other than apm is LA AC and CRIT off the charts. I kind of think thrassian was trying to do this too but ZOS nerfed into the ground. Without saying anything I do believe ZOS has been trying to raise the floor but to date has been missing the mark, hopefully they know enough now to make oaken a success.

BTW even in nerfed stated my testing on PTS has shown that it is better than pale order for solo play for me, because it adds enough to defense to survive almost anything with 1 slot heal. And all the other benefits make it way better than pale order. Here's an interesting idea, what about a mythic that gives 20% damage + 20% healing based off damage and is 1 bar.

Or here's another idea what about allowing 2 mythics but if you do your backbar is disabled and LA is on GCD and/or crit chance is capped at 50%.

Please, you can play how you want. But that doesn’t mean that all play styles are balanced. Especially when you are ignoring basic game mechanics like barswapping. And using more abilities. I wouldn’t mind a mythic that just does something to heavy attacks. Like makes them deal more damage to monsters, so it doesn’t carry over to pve. Or makes it so that after you heavy attack your next dmg does x% more dmg, so it still incentivizes using more abilities

Play how you want has never meant that all play styles are equal. That is a known fact. It is not me being condescending, it’s me being honest about the state of the game. Should more play styles be equal? Sure. But only play styles that still involve you know…playing the game. Using your abilities to heal and do damage. Does doing a heavy attack inbetween casting abilities count towards that? I think so. If heavy attacks increased the damage of abilities similar to something like the heavy attack passive that 2h has, that would be more than fine imo. Grant it, it’s my opinion. And I am entitled to it. I don’t think playstyles that actively encourage a player to do less and get the same amount should be encourage

Taking my example for heavy attacks increasing the damage of your next ability vs a light attack parse, in reality they both do the same amount of inputs. Just at a different pace. Ofc if something like that were to be added other things would need to be adjusted. That would be a healthy change imo

The problem is your opinion is not objective at all, you are talking about what YOU like or YOU do and wanting that to stay OP compared to every other way to do it. Also it is absurd that higher APM should justify 3-4 TIMES the damage. Once someone LEARNS their rotation it is second nature, by your argument since it become EASIER for you to do instead of giving more damage as you get better you should do LESS damage, RIGHT?

But also you fail to realize the difficulties inherent in things like HEAVY attack. it is slow not because player input but because it locks you in the animation and if you stop early you get NOTHING or with shock staff you get less ticks. That is how LA animation canceling should be, if you do it the LA damage SHOULD NOT REGISTER.

Also you fail to understand that while I am sitting in a HA animation and a monster or player bashes me, I lose attack and am stunned or off balance and easy target. Just for that reason alone, if you pull off a Heavy you should get way more damage but YOU DO NOT, and it keeps getting nerfed. Realistically ZOS needs a hard cap on s/d dmg at about 7K and cap crit CHANCE at 50% and put LA on skill GCD (which can be less than 1 sec to make game as fast paced as they want), then they'll have something really good.

Yeah everybody’s opinion benefits themselves, just like yours. If the game was balanced solely around you it would displease me

Placing hard caps actually reduces build diversity. 7k w/s dmg and 50% crit with cap crit dmg at 125% will make players use a specific setup where they will get those same numbers every time. It will kill even more builds. Putting LA on a GCD won’t even effect you at all. You just want to bring people down to your low dps level. Which is unnecessary. It doesn’t accomplish anything balance wise unless something else takes its place that is accessible for everybody to use. I really don’t care what the game wants me to do to accomplish high dps or burst in pvp, as long as it does it in a way that requires me to engage with the game, I really don’t care. Doing a light attack inbetween abilities is more engaging than just spamming abilities. Do light attacks need a nerf dmg wise? Sure. Light attacks shouldn’t make up 20-30% of a combat log. Same thing with how heavy attacks shouldn’t hit people for 15k channeled dmg

Using more abilities should absolutely make you do more dmg. If I cast 3 abilities and someone else casts 6 abilities, they should do more damage. Why should you be rewarded for doing less?

Vylaera

Jman100582 wrote: »

Why should you be rewarded for doing less?

Yeah pull your self up by your bootstraps sonny!!! Damn socialismsists!!! Entitled millennials!!! (obvious sarcasm)

Why did I get a notification that someone mentioned me in here? I don't feel like reading today's series of pedantry to find it.

merpins

BroughBreaux wrote: »

Jman100582 wrote: »

Why should you be rewarded for doing less?

Yeah pull your self up by your bootstraps sonny!!! Damn socialismsists!!! Entitled millennials!!! (obvious sarcasm)

Why did I get a notification that someone mentioned me in here? I don't feel like reading today's series of pedantry to find it.

JK. You generally put good constructive criticisms and ideas when it comes to this particular item.