Oakensoul Nerf

merpins

The moment this ring was revealed, all the one-bar build players rejoiced! As ZoS had answered their call. People with disabilities, whether they be mental or physical, and who could not bar swap could now play one-bar builds on a fairly even playing field. It would give players more options in design as well; you could do almost as much as other builds with this ring as other DPS build, and could probably make competent tanks with this on your bar as a one-bar build. But we all knew it was going to be nerfed. I speculated that it would be nerfed into the ground, others thought it might take a more lenient approach with some adjustments to the values to make it still good but not as good, others thought it might just bar WW from using it and call it a day. Too bad they went the approach I expected, because it was honestly a really interesting item.

Let's go over the benefits of the ring now: It now grants Major Courage, Major Savagery+Prophesy, Major Fortitude+Intellect+Endurance, and Major Resolve. It also still grants the all-stat bonus, ~4k per resource (I'm assuming since it wasn't mentioned in the nerf that this was removed, correct me if I'm wrong).

Major Courage, cool change! There aren't many things in the game that grant this: Spell Power Cure and one other armor set. That's it that I can think of off the top of my head. It doesn't overlap with anything else unless you have a healer with Spell Power Cure, and that can be worked around. It's worse than it was in Trials, but most people using this ring probably don't do trials, or at least won't on a character using this ring. Major Savagery and Prophesy? That's just a potion, or a single passive ability on your bar (which most one-bar setups slot anyway to further make their bar setup easier, but also to grant the passive additional stats). Major Fortitude+Intellect+Endurance? Well remember that potion I mentioned that grants Savagery/Prophesy? It grants the same benefit to the stat that you actually want. And Major Resolve: DPS builds, which are what one-bar builds mainly consist of, don't really need high resistance in the first place unless soloing, and you can get by with high hp and a self healing skill. They could have removed this from the skill, and few people would have minded I'd imagine. But hey, even with this nerf, they said nowhere that they were removing the max stats! You still get ~4k of all stats as well.

The main reason for the set was for the flat stats. Courage is fine, but the crit rate was one of the main reasons the ring was actually good on a one-bar setup. It was the main contributor to the higher average dps increase, as you'd crit more with less skills on your bar allowing for higher damage in conjunction with the stats you get from your potion or your passive slot from fighter's or mage's guild. Plus the additional main stat recovery made it easier to maintain your resources for a type of item aimed at a group of people that already have trouble doing the mechanics in the game already, so lowering their sustain isn't great.

Of course, we also need to keep in mind why this ring really exists. People that have the inability to bar swap for whatever reason, are looking for ways to reduce the things on their bar as much as possible. Major Savagery/Prophesy undermines this mind set. Every 1-bar build I've ever seen uses either Camouflage Hunter or Inner Light to gain this benefit plus the other passive benefits of the respective skills as to reduce the amount of key presses needed to 5 max. Wardens and Sorcs tend to reduce it even further with Bird of Prey, Bear, and the other pets to make it 2 or 3 button presses respectively. This one change undermines the reason for having the item itself in a weird way, and would serve well to be addressed specifically.

All-in-all, it's pretty bad for the Crit and Recovery aspects. It probably will only see use by the people that actually need it, but doesn't actually help them get to a level that is competitive.

jaws343

But now those builds can use that slot to slot a skill that provides a different passive buff. They don't even have to use the skill, they can get more damage or defense or whatever by just slotting something else and then ignoring that button like they already do.

Let's say a warden for example. Not they drop inner light and slot another animal skill to boost their damage with the passive for having it slotted. Then, don't use the skill. You still get the passive that you were unable to get before.

jaws343

Also, as far as potions, now a player can run heroism pots and get ultimate faster. It's not even like one bar builds had sustain issues anyways since they mostly relied on heavy attacks. But now you at least get the opposite stat recovery, like stam recovery to help with more defensive actions like blocking and dodge roll, that you didn't get with normal spell power pots. And you don't have to worry about uptime on potions either now, since the buff is permanent and will never be on cool down.

merpins

jaws343 wrote: »

But now those builds can use that slot to slot a skill that provides a different passive buff. They don't even have to use the skill, they can get more damage or defense or whatever by just slotting something else and then ignoring that button like they already do.

Let's say a warden for example. Not they drop inner light and slot another animal skill to boost their damage with the passive for having it slotted. Then, don't use the skill. You still get the passive that you were unable to get before.

Adding another animal skill for the passive benefit does not equal the same benefit of the crit rate and damage, or the crit rate and extra magicka, from the guild bar passives. Now Imagine you're playing a Dragon Knight. You now get no benefit from slotting something else in place of those skills.

As for your second quote, most people that do these builds due to the inability to bar swap want as few buttons to press as possible, so most don't even use potions, but if you want to bring up potions as an example, weapon power potions and spell power potions provide both the Recovery buff you want and the Crit buff from the ring. Not that people with the problems mentioned use potions much anyway.

There's no argument here. This ring both adds and takes options away, but what it takes away is not something that should be taken away from this particular playstyle. Nerfing the original crit rate it grants and specifying that the crit rate is reduced by x amount while in ww form, like for example 1400 crit rate and half that while a WW, would fix the problems that are introduced by this change.

jaws343

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

But now those builds can use that slot to slot a skill that provides a different passive buff. They don't even have to use the skill, they can get more damage or defense or whatever by just slotting something else and then ignoring that button like they already do.

Let's say a warden for example. Not they drop inner light and slot another animal skill to boost their damage with the passive for having it slotted. Then, don't use the skill. You still get the passive that you were unable to get before.

Adding another animal skill for the passive benefit does not equal the same benefit of the crit rate and damage, or the crit rate and extra magicka, from the guild bar passives. Now Imagine you're playing a Dragon Knight. You now get no benefit from slotting something else in place of those skills.

As for your second quote, most people that do these builds due to the inability to bar swap want as few buttons to press as possible, so most don't even use potions, but if you want to bring up potions as an example, weapon power potions and spell power potions provide both the Recovery buff you want and the Crit buff from the ring. Not that people with the problems mentioned use potions much anyway.

There's no argument here. This ring both adds and takes options away, but what it takes away is not something that should be taken away from this particular playstyle. Nerfing the original crit rate it grants and specifying that the crit rate is reduced by x amount while in ww form, like for example 1400 crit rate and half that while a WW, would fix the problems that are introduced by this change.

The op brought up potions as an example. The ring provides more options to use different potions.

As far as the slotting thing. You aren't losing anything to slot something else. You gain 3 percent more spell damage and you still have the same crit. There are so many options that the ring opens for one bar builds, just takes a bit of creativity.

As for overall power, one bar builds should not be able to compete with players using a full range of skills. That shouldn't be a thing. This provide some power and a ton of stats and opens up a ton of options that just are not present in live right now.

Vonkarolinas

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

Now Imagine you're playing a Dragon Knight. You now get no benefit from slotting something else in place of those skills.

Draconic Power passives Elder Dragon and Scaled armor, just slot another draconic power skill and get increased health recover and resistances added.

merpins

jaws343 wrote: »

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

But now those builds can use that slot to slot a skill that provides a different passive buff. They don't even have to use the skill, they can get more damage or defense or whatever by just slotting something else and then ignoring that button like they already do.

Let's say a warden for example. Not they drop inner light and slot another animal skill to boost their damage with the passive for having it slotted. Then, don't use the skill. You still get the passive that you were unable to get before.

Adding another animal skill for the passive benefit does not equal the same benefit of the crit rate and damage, or the crit rate and extra magicka, from the guild bar passives. Now Imagine you're playing a Dragon Knight. You now get no benefit from slotting something else in place of those skills.

As for your second quote, most people that do these builds due to the inability to bar swap want as few buttons to press as possible, so most don't even use potions, but if you want to bring up potions as an example, weapon power potions and spell power potions provide both the Recovery buff you want and the Crit buff from the ring. Not that people with the problems mentioned use potions much anyway.

There's no argument here. This ring both adds and takes options away, but what it takes away is not something that should be taken away from this particular playstyle. Nerfing the original crit rate it grants and specifying that the crit rate is reduced by x amount while in ww form, like for example 1400 crit rate and half that while a WW, would fix the problems that are introduced by this change.

The op brought up potions as an example. The ring provides more options to use different potions.

As far as the slotting thing. You aren't losing anything to slot something else. You gain 3 percent more spell damage and you still have the same crit. There are so many options that the ring opens for one bar builds, just takes a bit of creativity.

As for overall power, one bar builds should not be able to compete with players using a full range of skills. That shouldn't be a thing. This provide some power and a ton of stats and opens up a ton of options that just are not present in live right now.

The ring pre-nerf didnt make it so one-bar builds could compete with people using 2 bar builds. It made it so they can do enough damage to play with the top end, even if it's sub-optimal. You're still nowhere near the real top end, even with this ring in mind, but it was overtuned before. Most of the changes are fine, the crit rate one is the only one that makes the ring borderline bad in most cases.

Yes you could slot a bad skill to get the passive bonuses, but they're still bad skills when not in use. People that play this way don't want to slot bad skills, they still want to play well. The ring gives more options to some classes but not all classes and that's not right, since people with these disabilities want to have all the options everyone else does.

Toxic_Hemlock

jaws343 wrote: »

But now those builds can use that slot to slot a skill that provides a different passive buff. They don't even have to use the skill, they can get more damage or defense or whatever by just slotting something else and then ignoring that button like they already do.

Let's say a warden for example. Not they drop inner light and slot another animal skill to boost their damage with the passive for having it slotted. Then, don't use the skill. You still get the passive that you were unable to get before.

Well here's the problem with that. I suck at the game, switching bars confuses the hell out of me and I never know what bar I am on. Added to that ALL my mains and alts have a very simple set up that is:

My 1 button/skill is set to single target (leap if possible)
My 2 button/skill is set to a buff of some kind
My 3 button/skill is set to an AOE skill
My 4 skill is set to either Camouflaged hunter, or inner light (I don't even have a keypress for this as I never use it)
My 5 button/skill is set to a DOT of some kind

With this ring the skill 4 that I never use becomes redundant, so unless there is a skill that can be used as a passive such as the ones listed, it may as well end up blank.

Although some classes have an alternative ability that would fit this bill, I would have much preferred if they had just kept the increased crit chance stat. The rest I could live with, mind you potions will be instant trash now, but all in all I don't see myself going out of my way to get this ring as it sits now.

merpins

Vonkarolinas wrote: »

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

Now Imagine you're playing a Dragon Knight. You now get no benefit from slotting something else in place of those skills.

Draconic Power passives Elder Dragon and Scaled armor, just slot another draconic power skill and get increased health recover and resistances added.

As a DPS though? Don't see the point in that.

jaws343

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

But now those builds can use that slot to slot a skill that provides a different passive buff. They don't even have to use the skill, they can get more damage or defense or whatever by just slotting something else and then ignoring that button like they already do.

Let's say a warden for example. Not they drop inner light and slot another animal skill to boost their damage with the passive for having it slotted. Then, don't use the skill. You still get the passive that you were unable to get before.

Well here's the problem with that. I suck at the game, switching bars confuses the hell out of me and I never know what bar I am on. Added to that ALL my mains and alts have a very simple set up that is:

My 1 button/skill is set to single target (leap if possible)
My 2 button/skill is set to a buff of some kind
My 3 button/skill is set to an AOE skill
My 4 skill is set to either Camouflaged hunter, or inner light (I don't even have a keypress for this as I never use it)
My 5 button/skill is set to a DOT of some kind

With this ring the skill 4 that I never use becomes redundant, so unless there is a skill that can be used as a passive such as the ones listed, it may as well end up blank.

Although some classes have an alternative ability that would fit this bill, I would have much preferred if they had just kept the increased crit chance stat. The rest I could live with, mind you potions will be instant trash now, but all in all I don't see myself going out of my way to get this ring as it sits now.

There are literally whole skill lines of skills that provide passives just for slotting that you can choose from and then never use.

merpins

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

But now those builds can use that slot to slot a skill that provides a different passive buff. They don't even have to use the skill, they can get more damage or defense or whatever by just slotting something else and then ignoring that button like they already do.

Let's say a warden for example. Not they drop inner light and slot another animal skill to boost their damage with the passive for having it slotted. Then, don't use the skill. You still get the passive that you were unable to get before.

Well here's the problem with that. I suck at the game, switching bars confuses the hell out of me and I never know what bar I am on. Added to that ALL my mains and alts have a very simple set up that is:

My 1 button/skill is set to single target (leap if possible)
My 2 button/skill is set to a buff of some kind
My 3 button/skill is set to an AOE skill
My 4 skill is set to either Camouflaged hunter, or inner light (I don't even have a keypress for this as I never use it)
My 5 button/skill is set to a DOT of some kind

With this ring the skill 4 that I never use becomes redundant, so unless there is a skill that can be used as a passive such as the ones listed, it may as well end up blank.

Although some classes have an alternative ability that would fit this bill, I would have much preferred if they had just kept the increased crit chance stat. The rest I could live with, mind you potions will be instant trash now, but all in all I don't see myself going out of my way to get this ring as it sits now.

Thank you for your constructive input.
To be honest, I'd love to see the whole change reverted. It would allow players that can't do two-bar builds to participate in veteran end-game content like trials, since the nerf gives you Major bonuses that are covered in all trial party set-ups. Even adding the crit rate back won't change that, but adding the crit rate back would make it viable again at least, imo.

jaws343

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

But now those builds can use that slot to slot a skill that provides a different passive buff. They don't even have to use the skill, they can get more damage or defense or whatever by just slotting something else and then ignoring that button like they already do.

Let's say a warden for example. Not they drop inner light and slot another animal skill to boost their damage with the passive for having it slotted. Then, don't use the skill. You still get the passive that you were unable to get before.

Adding another animal skill for the passive benefit does not equal the same benefit of the crit rate and damage, or the crit rate and extra magicka, from the guild bar passives. Now Imagine you're playing a Dragon Knight. You now get no benefit from slotting something else in place of those skills.

As for your second quote, most people that do these builds due to the inability to bar swap want as few buttons to press as possible, so most don't even use potions, but if you want to bring up potions as an example, weapon power potions and spell power potions provide both the Recovery buff you want and the Crit buff from the ring. Not that people with the problems mentioned use potions much anyway.

There's no argument here. This ring both adds and takes options away, but what it takes away is not something that should be taken away from this particular playstyle. Nerfing the original crit rate it grants and specifying that the crit rate is reduced by x amount while in ww form, like for example 1400 crit rate and half that while a WW, would fix the problems that are introduced by this change.

The op brought up potions as an example. The ring provides more options to use different potions.

As far as the slotting thing. You aren't losing anything to slot something else. You gain 3 percent more spell damage and you still have the same crit. There are so many options that the ring opens for one bar builds, just takes a bit of creativity.

As for overall power, one bar builds should not be able to compete with players using a full range of skills. That shouldn't be a thing. This provide some power and a ton of stats and opens up a ton of options that just are not present in live right now.

The ring pre-nerf didnt make it so one-bar builds could compete with people using 2 bar builds. It made it so they can do enough damage to play with the top end, even if it's sub-optimal. You're still nowhere near the real top end, even with this ring in mind, but it was overtuned before. Most of the changes are fine, the crit rate one is the only one that makes the ring borderline bad in most cases.

Yes you could slot a bad skill to get the passive bonuses, but they're still bad skills when not in use. People that play this way don't want to slot bad skills, they still want to play well. The ring gives more options to some classes but not all classes and that's not right, since people with these disabilities want to have all the options everyone else does.

People were literally posting 120k DPS on pts with one bar builds using this ring. So yeah, it was competing with them with nearly zero sustain issues and extremely minimal rotations.

And a skill isn't a bad skill if it provides a buff you don't have. Like, the ring makes inner light redundant for the crit buff. You can still slot it for the max stats and recovery. Doesn't make that part useless. Who cares if you make the major buff redundant, you are still getting it. But, maybe you don't need the max mag or recovery, well, the spell damage increase for slotting any fighters guild skill is decent. If you don't need the mag or recovery, pretty much anything you can slot to give something passive will be a buff to the build. Or maybe you need an extra shield for survival, now you can slot a skill from psijic and not have to worry about losing the crit buff.

Toxic_Hemlock

jaws343 wrote: »

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

But now those builds can use that slot to slot a skill that provides a different passive buff. They don't even have to use the skill, they can get more damage or defense or whatever by just slotting something else and then ignoring that button like they already do.

Let's say a warden for example. Not they drop inner light and slot another animal skill to boost their damage with the passive for having it slotted. Then, don't use the skill. You still get the passive that you were unable to get before.

Well here's the problem with that. I suck at the game, switching bars confuses the hell out of me and I never know what bar I am on. Added to that ALL my mains and alts have a very simple set up that is:

My 1 button/skill is set to single target (leap if possible)
My 2 button/skill is set to a buff of some kind
My 3 button/skill is set to an AOE skill
My 4 skill is set to either Camouflaged hunter, or inner light (I don't even have a keypress for this as I never use it)
My 5 button/skill is set to a DOT of some kind

With this ring the skill 4 that I never use becomes redundant, so unless there is a skill that can be used as a passive such as the ones listed, it may as well end up blank.

Although some classes have an alternative ability that would fit this bill, I would have much preferred if they had just kept the increased crit chance stat. The rest I could live with, mind you potions will be instant trash now, but all in all I don't see myself going out of my way to get this ring as it sits now.

There are literally whole skill lines of skills that provide passives just for slotting that you can choose from and then never use.

That are universal (non-class based)/non PvP and add to my already pathetic DPS?
I'm aware there are passives that give certain other bonuses but as a replacement for critical chance they all suck.

Please tell about these skills so I can adjust all my alt's bars.

Edit to add: towards your point that some players were posting insane DPS numbers using this ring pre-nerf, so what?

If the ring makes the top 5% OP so be it, it would make me a descent player up from a garbage one, and was that not the intention of the ring in the first place?

jaws343

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

But now those builds can use that slot to slot a skill that provides a different passive buff. They don't even have to use the skill, they can get more damage or defense or whatever by just slotting something else and then ignoring that button like they already do.

Let's say a warden for example. Not they drop inner light and slot another animal skill to boost their damage with the passive for having it slotted. Then, don't use the skill. You still get the passive that you were unable to get before.

Well here's the problem with that. I suck at the game, switching bars confuses the hell out of me and I never know what bar I am on. Added to that ALL my mains and alts have a very simple set up that is:

My 1 button/skill is set to single target (leap if possible)
My 2 button/skill is set to a buff of some kind
My 3 button/skill is set to an AOE skill
My 4 skill is set to either Camouflaged hunter, or inner light (I don't even have a keypress for this as I never use it)
My 5 button/skill is set to a DOT of some kind

With this ring the skill 4 that I never use becomes redundant, so unless there is a skill that can be used as a passive such as the ones listed, it may as well end up blank.

Although some classes have an alternative ability that would fit this bill, I would have much preferred if they had just kept the increased crit chance stat. The rest I could live with, mind you potions will be instant trash now, but all in all I don't see myself going out of my way to get this ring as it sits now.

There are literally whole skill lines of skills that provide passives just for slotting that you can choose from and then never use.

That are universal (non-class based)/non PvP and add to my already pathetic DPS?
I'm aware there are passives that give certain other bonuses but as a replacement for critical chance they all suck.

Please tell about these skills so I can adjust all my alt's bars.

Edit to add: towards your point that some players were posting insane DPS numbers using this ring pre-nerf, so what?

If the ring makes the top 5% OP so be it, it would make me a descent player up from a garbage one, and was that not the intention of the ring in the first place?

But you literally aren't losing crit chance. You get it with the ring and then can slot something else if you want, like a fighters guild skill, for more passive damage. Or, you can also just keep slotting inner light and get the passive max stats. Just because the major buff is redundant doesn't suddenly break the rest of the passives the skill provides.

merpins

jaws343 wrote: »

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

But now those builds can use that slot to slot a skill that provides a different passive buff. They don't even have to use the skill, they can get more damage or defense or whatever by just slotting something else and then ignoring that button like they already do.

Let's say a warden for example. Not they drop inner light and slot another animal skill to boost their damage with the passive for having it slotted. Then, don't use the skill. You still get the passive that you were unable to get before.

Adding another animal skill for the passive benefit does not equal the same benefit of the crit rate and damage, or the crit rate and extra magicka, from the guild bar passives. Now Imagine you're playing a Dragon Knight. You now get no benefit from slotting something else in place of those skills.

As for your second quote, most people that do these builds due to the inability to bar swap want as few buttons to press as possible, so most don't even use potions, but if you want to bring up potions as an example, weapon power potions and spell power potions provide both the Recovery buff you want and the Crit buff from the ring. Not that people with the problems mentioned use potions much anyway.

There's no argument here. This ring both adds and takes options away, but what it takes away is not something that should be taken away from this particular playstyle. Nerfing the original crit rate it grants and specifying that the crit rate is reduced by x amount while in ww form, like for example 1400 crit rate and half that while a WW, would fix the problems that are introduced by this change.

The op brought up potions as an example. The ring provides more options to use different potions.

As far as the slotting thing. You aren't losing anything to slot something else. You gain 3 percent more spell damage and you still have the same crit. There are so many options that the ring opens for one bar builds, just takes a bit of creativity.

As for overall power, one bar builds should not be able to compete with players using a full range of skills. That shouldn't be a thing. This provide some power and a ton of stats and opens up a ton of options that just are not present in live right now.

The ring pre-nerf didnt make it so one-bar builds could compete with people using 2 bar builds. It made it so they can do enough damage to play with the top end, even if it's sub-optimal. You're still nowhere near the real top end, even with this ring in mind, but it was overtuned before. Most of the changes are fine, the crit rate one is the only one that makes the ring borderline bad in most cases.

Yes you could slot a bad skill to get the passive bonuses, but they're still bad skills when not in use. People that play this way don't want to slot bad skills, they still want to play well. The ring gives more options to some classes but not all classes and that's not right, since people with these disabilities want to have all the options everyone else does.

People were literally posting 120k DPS on pts with one bar builds using this ring. So yeah, it was competing with them with nearly zero sustain issues and extremely minimal rotations.

And a skill isn't a bad skill if it provides a buff you don't have. Like, the ring makes inner light redundant for the crit buff. You can still slot it for the max stats and recovery. Doesn't make that part useless. Who cares if you make the major buff redundant, you are still getting it. But, maybe you don't need the max mag or recovery, well, the spell damage increase for slotting any fighters guild skill is decent. If you don't need the mag or recovery, pretty much anything you can slot to give something passive will be a buff to the build. Or maybe you need an extra shield for survival, now you can slot a skill from psijic and not have to worry about losing the crit buff.

Cool! Change the crit rate gained to 1300-1500 from 1950, and change the weapon/spell attack gained from 450 to 300, and remove the armor bonus. You're missing the points of arguments made by other people and circling back to stuff you've already said. That's not constructive.

jaws343

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

But now those builds can use that slot to slot a skill that provides a different passive buff. They don't even have to use the skill, they can get more damage or defense or whatever by just slotting something else and then ignoring that button like they already do.

Let's say a warden for example. Not they drop inner light and slot another animal skill to boost their damage with the passive for having it slotted. Then, don't use the skill. You still get the passive that you were unable to get before.

Adding another animal skill for the passive benefit does not equal the same benefit of the crit rate and damage, or the crit rate and extra magicka, from the guild bar passives. Now Imagine you're playing a Dragon Knight. You now get no benefit from slotting something else in place of those skills.

As for your second quote, most people that do these builds due to the inability to bar swap want as few buttons to press as possible, so most don't even use potions, but if you want to bring up potions as an example, weapon power potions and spell power potions provide both the Recovery buff you want and the Crit buff from the ring. Not that people with the problems mentioned use potions much anyway.

There's no argument here. This ring both adds and takes options away, but what it takes away is not something that should be taken away from this particular playstyle. Nerfing the original crit rate it grants and specifying that the crit rate is reduced by x amount while in ww form, like for example 1400 crit rate and half that while a WW, would fix the problems that are introduced by this change.

The op brought up potions as an example. The ring provides more options to use different potions.

As far as the slotting thing. You aren't losing anything to slot something else. You gain 3 percent more spell damage and you still have the same crit. There are so many options that the ring opens for one bar builds, just takes a bit of creativity.

As for overall power, one bar builds should not be able to compete with players using a full range of skills. That shouldn't be a thing. This provide some power and a ton of stats and opens up a ton of options that just are not present in live right now.

The ring pre-nerf didnt make it so one-bar builds could compete with people using 2 bar builds. It made it so they can do enough damage to play with the top end, even if it's sub-optimal. You're still nowhere near the real top end, even with this ring in mind, but it was overtuned before. Most of the changes are fine, the crit rate one is the only one that makes the ring borderline bad in most cases.

Yes you could slot a bad skill to get the passive bonuses, but they're still bad skills when not in use. People that play this way don't want to slot bad skills, they still want to play well. The ring gives more options to some classes but not all classes and that's not right, since people with these disabilities want to have all the options everyone else does.

People were literally posting 120k DPS on pts with one bar builds using this ring. So yeah, it was competing with them with nearly zero sustain issues and extremely minimal rotations.

And a skill isn't a bad skill if it provides a buff you don't have. Like, the ring makes inner light redundant for the crit buff. You can still slot it for the max stats and recovery. Doesn't make that part useless. Who cares if you make the major buff redundant, you are still getting it. But, maybe you don't need the max mag or recovery, well, the spell damage increase for slotting any fighters guild skill is decent. If you don't need the mag or recovery, pretty much anything you can slot to give something passive will be a buff to the build. Or maybe you need an extra shield for survival, now you can slot a skill from psijic and not have to worry about losing the crit buff.

Cool! Change the crit rate gained to 1300-1500 from 1950, and change the weapon/spell attack gained from 450 to 300, and remove the armor bonus. You're missing the points of arguments made by other people and circling back to stuff you've already said. That's not constructive.

Because the arguments being made aren't really looking at the whole picture, not sure they being made in any semblance of good faith. I've offered many pieces of advice on how to gain more passive power to a build now that the ring takes care of multiple skills and sets worth of buffs.

Toxic_Hemlock

jaws343 wrote: »

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

But now those builds can use that slot to slot a skill that provides a different passive buff. They don't even have to use the skill, they can get more damage or defense or whatever by just slotting something else and then ignoring that button like they already do.

Let's say a warden for example. Not they drop inner light and slot another animal skill to boost their damage with the passive for having it slotted. Then, don't use the skill. You still get the passive that you were unable to get before.

Adding another animal skill for the passive benefit does not equal the same benefit of the crit rate and damage, or the crit rate and extra magicka, from the guild bar passives. Now Imagine you're playing a Dragon Knight. You now get no benefit from slotting something else in place of those skills.

As for your second quote, most people that do these builds due to the inability to bar swap want as few buttons to press as possible, so most don't even use potions, but if you want to bring up potions as an example, weapon power potions and spell power potions provide both the Recovery buff you want and the Crit buff from the ring. Not that people with the problems mentioned use potions much anyway.

There's no argument here. This ring both adds and takes options away, but what it takes away is not something that should be taken away from this particular playstyle. Nerfing the original crit rate it grants and specifying that the crit rate is reduced by x amount while in ww form, like for example 1400 crit rate and half that while a WW, would fix the problems that are introduced by this change.

The op brought up potions as an example. The ring provides more options to use different potions.

As far as the slotting thing. You aren't losing anything to slot something else. You gain 3 percent more spell damage and you still have the same crit. There are so many options that the ring opens for one bar builds, just takes a bit of creativity.

As for overall power, one bar builds should not be able to compete with players using a full range of skills. That shouldn't be a thing. This provide some power and a ton of stats and opens up a ton of options that just are not present in live right now.

The ring pre-nerf didnt make it so one-bar builds could compete with people using 2 bar builds. It made it so they can do enough damage to play with the top end, even if it's sub-optimal. You're still nowhere near the real top end, even with this ring in mind, but it was overtuned before. Most of the changes are fine, the crit rate one is the only one that makes the ring borderline bad in most cases.

Yes you could slot a bad skill to get the passive bonuses, but they're still bad skills when not in use. People that play this way don't want to slot bad skills, they still want to play well. The ring gives more options to some classes but not all classes and that's not right, since people with these disabilities want to have all the options everyone else does.

People were literally posting 120k DPS on pts with one bar builds using this ring. So yeah, it was competing with them with nearly zero sustain issues and extremely minimal rotations.

And a skill isn't a bad skill if it provides a buff you don't have. Like, the ring makes inner light redundant for the crit buff. You can still slot it for the max stats and recovery. Doesn't make that part useless. Who cares if you make the major buff redundant, you are still getting it. But, maybe you don't need the max mag or recovery, well, the spell damage increase for slotting any fighters guild skill is decent. If you don't need the mag or recovery, pretty much anything you can slot to give something passive will be a buff to the build. Or maybe you need an extra shield for survival, now you can slot a skill from psijic and not have to worry about losing the crit buff.

Cool! Change the crit rate gained to 1300-1500 from 1950, and change the weapon/spell attack gained from 450 to 300, and remove the armor bonus. You're missing the points of arguments made by other people and circling back to stuff you've already said. That's not constructive.

Because the arguments being made aren't really looking at the whole picture, not sure they being made in any semblance of good faith. I've offered many pieces of advice on how to gain more passive power to a build now that the ring takes care of multiple skills and sets worth of buffs.

I'm not trying to be argumentative nor am I acting in bad faith. I only wish to inform you that I don't think the change will be a step towards me doing better damage. I can currently use a potion to get 75% of the benefits of the new iteration, add to that it makes one of my skills redundant. If I am missing something them by all means let me know. Yes, I could slot another fighters guild ability to get the 3% extra damage passively but the overall DPS I could achieve would pale compared to the increased crit chance the ring used to offer.

sneakymitchell

It’s a useless mythic now. Let’s get on with it. Another thing that won’t be used at all

jaws343

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

But now those builds can use that slot to slot a skill that provides a different passive buff. They don't even have to use the skill, they can get more damage or defense or whatever by just slotting something else and then ignoring that button like they already do.

Let's say a warden for example. Not they drop inner light and slot another animal skill to boost their damage with the passive for having it slotted. Then, don't use the skill. You still get the passive that you were unable to get before.

Adding another animal skill for the passive benefit does not equal the same benefit of the crit rate and damage, or the crit rate and extra magicka, from the guild bar passives. Now Imagine you're playing a Dragon Knight. You now get no benefit from slotting something else in place of those skills.

As for your second quote, most people that do these builds due to the inability to bar swap want as few buttons to press as possible, so most don't even use potions, but if you want to bring up potions as an example, weapon power potions and spell power potions provide both the Recovery buff you want and the Crit buff from the ring. Not that people with the problems mentioned use potions much anyway.

There's no argument here. This ring both adds and takes options away, but what it takes away is not something that should be taken away from this particular playstyle. Nerfing the original crit rate it grants and specifying that the crit rate is reduced by x amount while in ww form, like for example 1400 crit rate and half that while a WW, would fix the problems that are introduced by this change.

The op brought up potions as an example. The ring provides more options to use different potions.

As far as the slotting thing. You aren't losing anything to slot something else. You gain 3 percent more spell damage and you still have the same crit. There are so many options that the ring opens for one bar builds, just takes a bit of creativity.

As for overall power, one bar builds should not be able to compete with players using a full range of skills. That shouldn't be a thing. This provide some power and a ton of stats and opens up a ton of options that just are not present in live right now.

The ring pre-nerf didnt make it so one-bar builds could compete with people using 2 bar builds. It made it so they can do enough damage to play with the top end, even if it's sub-optimal. You're still nowhere near the real top end, even with this ring in mind, but it was overtuned before. Most of the changes are fine, the crit rate one is the only one that makes the ring borderline bad in most cases.

Yes you could slot a bad skill to get the passive bonuses, but they're still bad skills when not in use. People that play this way don't want to slot bad skills, they still want to play well. The ring gives more options to some classes but not all classes and that's not right, since people with these disabilities want to have all the options everyone else does.

People were literally posting 120k DPS on pts with one bar builds using this ring. So yeah, it was competing with them with nearly zero sustain issues and extremely minimal rotations.

And a skill isn't a bad skill if it provides a buff you don't have. Like, the ring makes inner light redundant for the crit buff. You can still slot it for the max stats and recovery. Doesn't make that part useless. Who cares if you make the major buff redundant, you are still getting it. But, maybe you don't need the max mag or recovery, well, the spell damage increase for slotting any fighters guild skill is decent. If you don't need the mag or recovery, pretty much anything you can slot to give something passive will be a buff to the build. Or maybe you need an extra shield for survival, now you can slot a skill from psijic and not have to worry about losing the crit buff.

Cool! Change the crit rate gained to 1300-1500 from 1950, and change the weapon/spell attack gained from 450 to 300, and remove the armor bonus. You're missing the points of arguments made by other people and circling back to stuff you've already said. That's not constructive.

Because the arguments being made aren't really looking at the whole picture, not sure they being made in any semblance of good faith. I've offered many pieces of advice on how to gain more passive power to a build now that the ring takes care of multiple skills and sets worth of buffs.

I'm not trying to be argumentative nor am I acting in bad faith. I only wish to inform you that I don't think the change will be a step towards me doing better damage. I can currently use a potion to get 75% of the benefits of the new iteration, add to that it makes one of my skills redundant. If I am missing something them by all means let me know. Yes, I could slot another fighters guild ability to get the 3% extra damage passively but the overall DPS I could achieve would pale compared to the increased crit chance the ring used to offer.

But, will it not be more damage than you are doing on live?

That's the point. Whatever the PTS did in a previous patch isn't really all too relevant. The PTS is always a constant state of adjustment and just because something was introduced as overpowered doesn't mean we should somehow use that as a baseline to judge the item on.

For example, say they introduce a set that provided 500% damage or some insane damage boost. Objectively we can say it is way too strong. Well then they bring it in line a week later, but it still provides a bit more than something on live. Sure, we can say that prenerf if was much better than it is now, but even after the nerf it still offers something unique and increases player power.

This ring is still a way to provide buffs, some very rare, to a build while freeing up bar slots for other buffs. A one bar build on live, doing nothing but slotting this ring, will immediately gain power without changing any skills. And will gain more power by reoptimizing their skills. The power the ring may have provided last week isn't really relevant in term of how the ring will improve a build on live now. Yes it was a nerf from pts last week, but it is still an overall buff to the build type.

Toxic_Hemlock

jaws343 wrote: »

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

But now those builds can use that slot to slot a skill that provides a different passive buff. They don't even have to use the skill, they can get more damage or defense or whatever by just slotting something else and then ignoring that button like they already do.

Let's say a warden for example. Not they drop inner light and slot another animal skill to boost their damage with the passive for having it slotted. Then, don't use the skill. You still get the passive that you were unable to get before.

Adding another animal skill for the passive benefit does not equal the same benefit of the crit rate and damage, or the crit rate and extra magicka, from the guild bar passives. Now Imagine you're playing a Dragon Knight. You now get no benefit from slotting something else in place of those skills.

As for your second quote, most people that do these builds due to the inability to bar swap want as few buttons to press as possible, so most don't even use potions, but if you want to bring up potions as an example, weapon power potions and spell power potions provide both the Recovery buff you want and the Crit buff from the ring. Not that people with the problems mentioned use potions much anyway.

There's no argument here. This ring both adds and takes options away, but what it takes away is not something that should be taken away from this particular playstyle. Nerfing the original crit rate it grants and specifying that the crit rate is reduced by x amount while in ww form, like for example 1400 crit rate and half that while a WW, would fix the problems that are introduced by this change.

The op brought up potions as an example. The ring provides more options to use different potions.

As far as the slotting thing. You aren't losing anything to slot something else. You gain 3 percent more spell damage and you still have the same crit. There are so many options that the ring opens for one bar builds, just takes a bit of creativity.

As for overall power, one bar builds should not be able to compete with players using a full range of skills. That shouldn't be a thing. This provide some power and a ton of stats and opens up a ton of options that just are not present in live right now.

The ring pre-nerf didnt make it so one-bar builds could compete with people using 2 bar builds. It made it so they can do enough damage to play with the top end, even if it's sub-optimal. You're still nowhere near the real top end, even with this ring in mind, but it was overtuned before. Most of the changes are fine, the crit rate one is the only one that makes the ring borderline bad in most cases.

Yes you could slot a bad skill to get the passive bonuses, but they're still bad skills when not in use. People that play this way don't want to slot bad skills, they still want to play well. The ring gives more options to some classes but not all classes and that's not right, since people with these disabilities want to have all the options everyone else does.

People were literally posting 120k DPS on pts with one bar builds using this ring. So yeah, it was competing with them with nearly zero sustain issues and extremely minimal rotations.

And a skill isn't a bad skill if it provides a buff you don't have. Like, the ring makes inner light redundant for the crit buff. You can still slot it for the max stats and recovery. Doesn't make that part useless. Who cares if you make the major buff redundant, you are still getting it. But, maybe you don't need the max mag or recovery, well, the spell damage increase for slotting any fighters guild skill is decent. If you don't need the mag or recovery, pretty much anything you can slot to give something passive will be a buff to the build. Or maybe you need an extra shield for survival, now you can slot a skill from psijic and not have to worry about losing the crit buff.

Cool! Change the crit rate gained to 1300-1500 from 1950, and change the weapon/spell attack gained from 450 to 300, and remove the armor bonus. You're missing the points of arguments made by other people and circling back to stuff you've already said. That's not constructive.

Because the arguments being made aren't really looking at the whole picture, not sure they being made in any semblance of good faith. I've offered many pieces of advice on how to gain more passive power to a build now that the ring takes care of multiple skills and sets worth of buffs.

I'm not trying to be argumentative nor am I acting in bad faith. I only wish to inform you that I don't think the change will be a step towards me doing better damage. I can currently use a potion to get 75% of the benefits of the new iteration, add to that it makes one of my skills redundant. If I am missing something them by all means let me know. Yes, I could slot another fighters guild ability to get the 3% extra damage passively but the overall DPS I could achieve would pale compared to the increased crit chance the ring used to offer.

But, will it not be more damage than you are doing on live?

That's the point. Whatever the PTS did in a previous patch isn't really all too relevant. The PTS is always a constant state of adjustment and just because something was introduced as overpowered doesn't mean we should somehow use that as a baseline to judge the item on.

For example, say they introduce a set that provided 500% damage or some insane damage boost. Objectively we can say it is way too strong. Well then they bring it in line a week later, but it still provides a bit more than something on live. Sure, we can say that prenerf if was much better than it is now, but even after the nerf it still offers something unique and increases player power.

This ring is still a way to provide buffs, some very rare, to a build while freeing up bar slots for other buffs. A one bar build on live, doing nothing but slotting this ring, will immediately gain power without changing any skills. And will gain more power by reoptimizing their skills. The power the ring may have provided last week isn't really relevant in term of how the ring will improve a build on live now. Yes it was a nerf from pts last week, but it is still an overall buff to the build type.

At the loss of being able to switch to a ranged weapon in an emergency.
I may give it a go on live if I inadvertently find the leads, but I don't think I will be searching them out anymore.

merpins

sneakymitchell wrote: »

It’s a useless mythic now. Let’s get on with it. Another thing that won’t be used at all

Yeah I agree. If they don't do something about this nerf, it'll just be another mythic to throw into the pile of unused mythics along with the tonal thingy and the stranglers.

James-Wayne

Just been playing around with this on PTS and the nerf hammer hit hard on this one, yes it was strong on WW but was about right for a simple build to keep damage up... now it loses a lot of impact and I dont think I will look for it come live in this state but maybe we get other tweaks.

The crit has a minimal should have stayed as is, hopefully they readjust before Live.

Dagoth_Rac

jaws343 wrote: »

But, will it not be more damage than you are doing on live?

That's the point.

The point was not to do a tiny bit more damage compared to live. The point, or at least what people were hoping for, was a way to allow people who struggle with the sheer, relentless, unending, brutal button smashing of DPS in this game, to do reasonably good DPS. Not perfect meta hard-mode/speed-run #1 world record leader DPS. But enough DPS where you will not be kicked to the curb immediately as a veteran DPS. Some minor tweaks to this ring could have made it where you could do enough damage to be welcome in standard veteran progression guilds, but not enough DPS to threaten double-bar light-attack weaving top builds.

This is really a binary issue, not a continuum. Either one-bar and/or heavy attack builds are viable and welcome DPS in veteran PvE, or they are not. Being 15k away from acceptable DPS instead of 20K is not really helping. We are not asking for top of the line score-pushing and getting all the achievements. I mean, we just want to join in socially for scheduled guild veteran runs. Right now, DPS for these kinds of builds are so low, you are a liability to the group. They don't want you there. You feel bad being there. This change to Oakensoul just leaves that status quo in place.

I understand there are people who feel that these kind of "low APM" builds should not just be below meta builds, but should be relegated completely and totally to casual content. And that is mostly where they are now. And I think you need to forgive people for getting excited because we thought ZOS might be moving to a state where the challenge of veteran content might go beyond, "How fast can you mash buttons?"

Silversmith

Nerfed the ring by listening to Werewolves getting a buff when in reality the one bar frontman DK/Templar would slaughter a werewolf team.

Toss it onto the ever-growing pile of trash mythics that used to be interesting.

EF321

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

Change the crit rate gained to 1300-1500 from 1950, and change the weapon/spell attack gained from 450 to 300, and remove the armor bonus.

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

e pile of unused mythics along with the tonal thingy

So, you like parsing dummies...

merpins

EF321 wrote: »

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

Change the crit rate gained to 1300-1500 from 1950, and change the weapon/spell attack gained from 450 to 300, and remove the armor bonus.

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

e pile of unused mythics along with the tonal thingy

So, you like parsing dummies...

I don't even have a parsing dummy in my house lol. Been playing since beta, so it's more about how it feels to play in a vet dungeon. And even without the armor bonus, it'd be a great item before the nerf.

Runefang

It’s good for people who only used 1 bar, I think that’s the point. They probably didn’t use potions much either. It’s not meant for most players. I think it’s fine as is. Better than any other mythic for a one bar overland player.

Toxic_Hemlock

Runefang wrote: »

It’s good for people who only used 1 bar, I think that’s the point. They probably didn’t use potions much either. It’s not meant for most players. I think it’s fine as is. Better than any other mythic for a one bar overland player.

I almost always just use one bar, but just in case I need to swap weapons I won't bother with it now. Better just to use a pale order/wild hunt instead.

merpins

Runefang wrote: »

It’s good for people who only used 1 bar, I think that’s the point. They probably didn’t use potions much either. It’s not meant for most players. I think it’s fine as is. Better than any other mythic for a one bar overland player.

one-bar players already deal plenty of damage for overland and normal dungeons. 30-40k dps isn't bad for a general player, and will absolutely melt normal overland content including world bosses. What those players wanted was a way to move up to end game content. Some players, whether they be older with less mobility in their hands, or people with just general mental or motor function disabilities, they want to experience difficult vet dungeons and trials, but at 40k dps, they cannot. A friend of mine has a motor function disability, and specifically plays a couple one-bar builds in this game with only 3 skills they actively use on their bar including the ultimate, and he's able to milk out 55k dps after YEARS of perfecting his playstyle. The Oakensoul ring with a change to a bit of his gear bumped him up to 90k on one of his builds, 85k in another, and 70k at the low end on a third, all respectively fine for end game content sans maybe the 70k to some players. We speculate the change will drop his DPS down to 80k on the high end, but those buffs aren't normally taken into account when doing parses for Trials because they're generally buffs other players give you in trials, so effectively the ring gives him nothing but max magicka stamina and health, and his DPS for a trial setting is only considered ~60k since 80k is after buffing with party buffs. THIS is the problem.

fred4

I wonder how communication works within ZOS. "Guys: We need to reign in Oakensoul by making it use the major buffs that people normally get from their back bar or from having more bar space". Programmer goes ahead and does exactly that. What I'm driving at: Major Endurance and/or Intellect already comes from a potion while few people will care about the health regen. The recovery lines are now useless! I've seen some people praising this change, IMO rightfully so. At the same time we're setting the bar so very, very low for ZOS. A programmer who truly understood the intricacies of theory crafting might have assigned Minor resource recoveries to the ring. That is the kind of thing you get from slotting a skill, such as Repentence, not the major buffs.

The ring is still a Mythic item, taking up an armor slot. What it's got going for it now, outside of providing one-bar build support for people already playing such builds, is providing Major Courage instead of Major Brutality. I gather it's unclear whether it still provides the health/mag/stam base stats? I suppose if it still provides those that is something no build would have without this mytic.

ZOS had a way of making sure to provide recovery that a two bar build might obtain from a back bar skill or by tying up a valuable front bar skill slot. If nothing else this would have made for a more ready comparison with two bar builds, e.g. a more predictable outcome in terms of balancing. They chose not to provide such recovery. Potions are universal. Everyone who is half-way serious about combat gets the major buffs that they need from potions already. My question, therefore, is: Was the choice of Major Fortidude / Endurance / Intellect intentional, or did this fly under ZOS' radar? I guess the follow up question is: Does it matter? The ring still provides stats and Major Courage. These are the things that elevate it for people who might not otherwise play a one bar build. Clearly the ring is in a much better place now. I guess it will do.

merpins

fred4 wrote: »

I wonder how communication works within ZOS. "Guys: We need to reign in Oakensoul by making it use the major buffs that people normally get from their back bar or from having more bar space". Programmer goes ahead and does exactly that. What I'm driving at: Major Endurance and/or Intellect already comes from a potion while few people will care about the health regen. The recovery lines are now useless! I've seen some people praising this change, IMO rightfully so. At the same time we're setting the bar so very, very low for ZOS. A programmer who truly understood the intricacies of theory crafting might have assigned Minor resource recoveries to the ring. That is the kind of thing you get from slotting a skill, such as Repentence, not the major buffs.

The ring is still a Mythic item, taking up an armor slot. What it's got going for it now, outside of providing one-bar build support for people already playing such builds, is providing Major Courage instead of Major Brutality. I gather it's unclear whether it still provides the health/mag/stam base stats? I suppose if it still provides those that is something no build would have without this mytic.

ZOS had a way of making sure to provide recovery that a two bar build might obtain from a back bar skill or by tying up a valuable front bar skill slot. If nothing else this would have made for a more ready comparison with two bar builds, e.g. a more predictable outcome in terms of balancing. They chose not to provide such recovery. Potions are universal. Everyone who is half-way serious about combat gets the major buffs that they need from potions already. My question, therefore, is: Was the choice of Major Fortidude / Endurance / Intellect intentional, or did this fly under ZOS' radar? I guess the follow up question is: Does it matter? The ring still provides stats and Major Courage. These are the things that elevate it for people who might not otherwise play a one bar build. Clearly the ring is in a much better place now. I guess it will do.

It's fine for overland content, but people who wanted help with one-bar builds were people with some kind of disability or inability to do 2-bar builds for whatever reason. The people that wanted something like this already steam roll normal dungeons and overland content, and some can do vet dungeons, but needed a push to let them to vet trials. I mentioned a friend of mine above. The ring before would help those players do end-game content, plain and simple. Now it's a dead item if you try to go into a vet trial. Spell power cure gets rid of the courage, more than 1 person will give out crit rate if you're not already running a potion, the intellect or endurance is also covered by party buffs or a potion, and resolve doesnt matter for dps. Assuming the ring still gives max resource stats, then in a trial you're just wearing a ring that gives you ~4k health and your main resource.