TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

the Vestige would still STOMP them, in game terms not a single character from the single player games would survive even one light attack.

As per my previous post, that's not true.

100% incoming damage reduction was exactly what it sounds like.

zaria wrote: »

I say Morrowind was the most broken game if you got addicted to fortify intelligence potions, now just boost you willpower and strength and you can cast any cost spells and you are one punch man, you can not use weapons as they break on hit so spec into unarmed.

Once you climbed the INT ladder, you also could create a lot of great enchanted gear.

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

I'm going to disregard the protagonists from any game before TES 3 since I'm unfamiliar with their core stories, other than the fact that TES 2 relies heavily on the concepts of the dragon break, a world changing phenomenon that essentially creates a new timeline back to the future style.

In TES 3: you kill 3 gods and almost kill a fourth. Kind of. The Tribunal plus Dagoth are not on the power level of a true god or Daedra. Their power is equivalent to 1/4 of a god, probably less since they took the godly power from Lorkhan heart alone. And this power wasn't infinite, it was in fact finite. By the events of TES 3, the Tribunal had already used up more than half of their power, becoming much weaker than they were in ESO, which though not at the height of their power, they are still very powerful in this game.

TES 4: you don't technically kill anyone specifically super powerful, other than Mannimarco who as we know is a main antagonistic force of the main story of ESO. You do however take on Jiggalag, a weakened Daedra (which canonically are stronger than Aedra), and your character BECOMES the new Sheogorath, making your power on par with a daedra, if unstable. I would not consider the character as sheogorath to still be the player character at that point, but at the point of killing Jiggalag I would say it is, so let's assume killing jiggalag is the MC's main accomplishment.

TES 5: You kill dragons as well as an ancient dragon that is said to bring the end of the world, however that is in-game folklore and legend that the world eater himself bought in to. You take on ancient vampires, and a demi-god dragonborn that is basically the champion of a daedra.


With that in mind I have two power listings based on 1. power, and 2. survivability.

The most powerful, from left being the strongest to right being the weakest, is probably TES 4 - ESO - TES 3 - TES 5, for all the reasons listed above.
The most survivable would be different. It would be TES 3 - ESO - TES 5* - TES 4. Here's the reason: TES 3's protagonist has a disease that makes them live forever, period. They also have immunity to the debilitating nature of the disease, and therefore could feasibly outlive any other protagonist in the TES universe, plus so long as they do not have to fight TES 4's protagonist, they're stronger than the other protagonists that are still alive in their timeline. ESO's is second because, canonically in lore, a being without a soul can live so long as they are not killed. This is partially why Vampirism allows a vampire to live forever, and since the protagonist of ESO's soul was taken by the progenitor of vampires, it's likely that they would live forever, so long as they do not take their soul back. This leaves the potential of being the most survivable character in TES, but since they canonically get their soul back, this survivability is short lived.
For Tes 5, it's an asterisk. If you join the vampires, it is where it is on that list. If you don't, TES 4 and TES 5 are pretty equal.

I argue against TES 4:CoC being strongest thanks to his fight with Jiggalag, because he didn't kill him as much as he broke his curse. As a matter the well and pondering prince of order Jiggalag, former Sheogorath, is the one who gave CoC the title of Sheogorath. I can't say he banished the full being of Jiggalag at all.

Where as TES 5: DB has the power of Auri-el's Bow and the ability to cast darkness across all of Tamriel. They didn't have to fight as many daedra for sure. But they defeated the first born of Akatosh, aka. The being that holds back all daedra. There where wimpy dragons in the TES V as well just because ESO defeats one or two with the help of artifacts doesn't make them stronger.

I will say this though, while I rank the Vestige as at or near the the top in terms of fighting power, when it comes to intelligence and the capacity for political power, the Vestige is probably the dumbest of all the protagonists.

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

I'm going to disregard the protagonists from any game before TES 3 since I'm unfamiliar with their core stories, other than the fact that TES 2 relies heavily on the concepts of the dragon break, a world changing phenomenon that essentially creates a new timeline back to the future style.

In TES 3: you kill 3 gods and almost kill a fourth. Kind of. The Tribunal plus Dagoth are not on the power level of a true god or Daedra. Their power is equivalent to 1/4 of a god, probably less since they took the godly power from Lorkhan heart alone. And this power wasn't infinite, it was in fact finite. By the events of TES 3, the Tribunal had already used up more than half of their power, becoming much weaker than they were in ESO, which though not at the height of their power, they are still very powerful in this game.

TES 4: you don't technically kill anyone specifically super powerful, other than Mannimarco who as we know is a main antagonistic force of the main story of ESO. You do however take on Jiggalag, a weakened Daedra (which canonically are stronger than Aedra), and your character BECOMES the new Sheogorath, making your power on par with a daedra, if unstable. I would not consider the character as sheogorath to still be the player character at that point, but at the point of killing Jiggalag I would say it is, so let's assume killing jiggalag is the MC's main accomplishment.

TES 5: You kill dragons as well as an ancient dragon that is said to bring the end of the world, however that is in-game folklore and legend that the world eater himself bought in to. You take on ancient vampires, and a demi-god dragonborn that is basically the champion of a daedra.


With that in mind I have two power listings based on 1. power, and 2. survivability.

The most powerful, from left being the strongest to right being the weakest, is probably TES 4 - ESO - TES 3 - TES 5, for all the reasons listed above.
The most survivable would be different. It would be TES 3 - ESO - TES 5* - TES 4. Here's the reason: TES 3's protagonist has a disease that makes them live forever, period. They also have immunity to the debilitating nature of the disease, and therefore could feasibly outlive any other protagonist in the TES universe, plus so long as they do not have to fight TES 4's protagonist, they're stronger than the other protagonists that are still alive in their timeline. ESO's is second because, canonically in lore, a being without a soul can live so long as they are not killed. This is partially why Vampirism allows a vampire to live forever, and since the protagonist of ESO's soul was taken by the progenitor of vampires, it's likely that they would live forever, so long as they do not take their soul back. This leaves the potential of being the most survivable character in TES, but since they canonically get their soul back, this survivability is short lived.
For Tes 5, it's an asterisk. If you join the vampires, it is where it is on that list. If you don't, TES 4 and TES 5 are pretty equal.

But isnt the body of the eso protagonit made out of azure plasm? Wich make us similar to a daedra?
I mean we were killed and soul trapped by mannimarco, our real body died we got the body of a soul shriven. I dont think that body can get old and let us die of old age and if it can wouldn't we just reform(respawn)?

Seeing as our character screams when in combat implies it feels pain. If it stays battling on nirn indefinitely there's a good chance it will deteriorate to some form of mind shriven if it doesn't take on the offer it got at the end of the Daggerfall quest line to pass on to the Far Shores. Although yeah the body is probably age less.

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Less then 100 DPS

It is funny that people are actually trying to use game mechanics to argue this, if we are using game mechanics the Vestige takes all the Single Player protagonists at once including all the Spin-Off protagonists as well,

You Sir are forgetting how powerful spellcrafting is in Morrowind and how broken blacksmithing is in Skyrim.

Jusey1 wrote: »

Lo

Adremal wrote: »

Game mechanics are just that, game mechanics. They should be ignored completely.

This. Lore wise, we shouldn't be able to resurrect ourselves anymore in ESO after we defeat Molag Bal because we have our soul back and are back to normal.

That's not necessarily true, you know? Mannimarco disposed of our original body and we don't lose our Anuic property when we get our soul back.

In a little more detail:

Let's talk about Chaotic Creatia.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Chaotic_Creatia:_The_Azure_Plasm

"His theory is that the Soul Shriven's bodies are flawed because they have lost the focusing principle of their Anuic souls, so their vestiges are imperfect patterns. I concurred that this was likely, and then proposed the theoretical possibility of a Soul Shriven who, despite having lost his or her soul, possessed some other intrinsic Anuic aspect. This shall-we-say "paragon" Soul Shriven would form an unflawed body in Coldharbour that was a perfect duplicate of the body worn in Mundus. In fact, if this paragon bore a sufficiently high Anuic valence, upon contact with Padomaic creatia its body would form almost instantaneously."

I realize that the original Coldharbor start to the game has fallen out of style, but originally, here's what happened: Mannimarco sacrificed you (and later says he used your corpse for his necromancy) and sent your soul to Molag Bal. When you help the Prophet escape, you collapse on the threshold of returning to Nirn. The Prophet realizes you need a connection to Aetherius and thus calls down a skyshard. He tells you that you can strengthen this connection and thus ward off the normal decay experienced by Soul-shriven by collecting skyshards and fighting Molag Bal.

This lines up with the theory in Chaotic Creatia. The Vestige has a body of Padomaic creatia and regains their focusing Anuic aspect by hunting skyshards and fighting Molag Bal.

Following the fight with Molag Bal, you get your soul back. What then of that Anuic aspect that allows you to continue to resurrect your Padomaic body?

Following reclaiming your soul, Meridia describes you thus: "Gone forever, but their memory remains. I can see the light burning brightly behind your eyes. Your friend is a part of you now, just as the strength of the Divines burns like a flame within your renewed soul."

It's implied that being empowered by Akatosh has left its mark on your soul. The strength of the Divines burns in you. You still have that Anuic aspect and thus, you can still command your Padomaic body to reform.

... ... ...

I should note that the new Balfiera tutorial has its own opinion on what's going on. It heavily implies that there's something special about you, hinting that a theory in Chaotic Creatia is true:

"The Sojourner scoffed at my theory, but seemed taken with the idea nonetheless. He went on to speculate that if such a thing were possible, it would probably occur in a situation where the Mundus was in existential jeopardy. In that case the Heart of Nirn would spontaneously generate such "paragon" individuals as a way of defending itself from destruction, in a manner analogous to the way the mortal body fights off infection."

Balfiera implies that the hero is one such Paragon, and thus the Anuic principle may be intrinsic to their nature.

If that's the case, then it explains why players can resurrect at any point, because it's not your soul that does it.

... ... ...

Now, that all being said, I don't what to step on how you roleplay your Vestige. If you want to go with "My Vestige never resurrected after beating Molag Bal", you do you!

My Vestige, uh, falls off too many cliffs for that.

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

I'm going to disregard the protagonists from any game before TES 3 since I'm unfamiliar with their core stories, other than the fact that TES 2 relies heavily on the concepts of the dragon break, a world changing phenomenon that essentially creates a new timeline back to the future style.

In TES 3: you kill 3 gods and almost kill a fourth. Kind of. The Tribunal plus Dagoth are not on the power level of a true god or Daedra. Their power is equivalent to 1/4 of a god, probably less since they took the godly power from Lorkhan heart alone. And this power wasn't infinite, it was in fact finite. By the events of TES 3, the Tribunal had already used up more than half of their power, becoming much weaker than they were in ESO, which though not at the height of their power, they are still very powerful in this game.

TES 4: you don't technically kill anyone specifically super powerful, other than Mannimarco who as we know is a main antagonistic force of the main story of ESO. You do however take on Jiggalag, a weakened Daedra (which canonically are stronger than Aedra), and your character BECOMES the new Sheogorath, making your power on par with a daedra, if unstable. I would not consider the character as sheogorath to still be the player character at that point, but at the point of killing Jiggalag I would say it is, so let's assume killing jiggalag is the MC's main accomplishment.

TES 5: You kill dragons as well as an ancient dragon that is said to bring the end of the world, however that is in-game folklore and legend that the world eater himself bought in to. You take on ancient vampires, and a demi-god dragonborn that is basically the champion of a daedra.


With that in mind I have two power listings based on 1. power, and 2. survivability.

The most powerful, from left being the strongest to right being the weakest, is probably TES 4 - ESO - TES 3 - TES 5, for all the reasons listed above.
The most survivable would be different. It would be TES 3 - ESO - TES 5* - TES 4. Here's the reason: TES 3's protagonist has a disease that makes them live forever, period. They also have immunity to the debilitating nature of the disease, and therefore could feasibly outlive any other protagonist in the TES universe, plus so long as they do not have to fight TES 4's protagonist, they're stronger than the other protagonists that are still alive in their timeline. ESO's is second because, canonically in lore, a being without a soul can live so long as they are not killed. This is partially why Vampirism allows a vampire to live forever, and since the protagonist of ESO's soul was taken by the progenitor of vampires, it's likely that they would live forever, so long as they do not take their soul back. This leaves the potential of being the most survivable character in TES, but since they canonically get their soul back, this survivability is short lived.
For Tes 5, it's an asterisk. If you join the vampires, it is where it is on that list. If you don't, TES 4 and TES 5 are pretty equal.

Actually the Vestige cannot be permanently killed.

Ilsabet wrote: »

This is an interesting point, but maybe not in the way you intended.

The Last Dragonborn, by virtue of being dragonborn, has a skillset that is very effective at dealing with dragons. The Vestige can't match the effectiveness of that skillset in dealing with that very specific enemy, but it could easily be argued that the Vestige's versatility in effectively dealing with many other enemies (some of whom would be considered stronger than dragons) makes up for that one relative weakness.

The thing is, dragons has been the most powerful thing that the Vestige had to go up against. Yes, Daedric Princes are more powerful but every time we defeated a Daedric Prince of some kind, it was either them weakened or the Vestige being powered up by an external source. This is also true for any other hero (As the Nerevarine, you don't fight Hircine. A fight a weakened aspect of his because Hircine refuses to hunt his prey without giving his prey a fair fight in return), and our Oblivion hero only fights Jyggalag AFTER gaining the mantle of Sheogorath...

And even when we do defeat a Daedric Prince, it mostly considered very minor (Molag Bal was upset at losing to the Vestige, sure, but he basically just shrugged it off, took the loss, and is ready onto whatever next big scheme he has)...

I keep seeing people in this thread talking about how the Vestige defeated so many Daedric Princes but it feels weird to say that because they truly never did so by themselves of their own power level... You could say that the Vestige was a platinum being carried by a grandmaster in some of these situations.

However, the dragons of Elswyr has been a really good situation to truly look at the Vestige's true power level in comparison to at least a Dragonborn and give us an idea where they are on the scale since the only outside help you really get when fighting the dragons in the main story quests are tools or Tharn himself really. No divine power, no outside help, no "defeating a daedric champion" to stop the Prince (not the Prince themselves)... Just killing a very powerful foe that we can truly measure in comparison.

Jusey1 wrote: »

Ilsabet wrote: »

This is an interesting point, but maybe not in the way you intended.

The Last Dragonborn, by virtue of being dragonborn, has a skillset that is very effective at dealing with dragons. The Vestige can't match the effectiveness of that skillset in dealing with that very specific enemy, but it could easily be argued that the Vestige's versatility in effectively dealing with many other enemies (some of whom would be considered stronger than dragons) makes up for that one relative weakness.

The thing is, dragons has been the most powerful thing that the Vestige had to go up against. Yes, Daedric Princes are more powerful but every time we defeated a Daedric Prince of some kind, it was either them weakened or the Vestige being powered up by an external source. This is also true for any other hero (As the Nerevarine, you don't fight Hircine. A fight a weakened aspect of his because Hircine refuses to hunt his prey without giving his prey a fair fight in return), and our Oblivion hero only fights Jyggalag AFTER gaining the mantle of Sheogorath...

And even when we do defeat a Daedric Prince, it mostly considered very minor (Molag Bal was upset at losing to the Vestige, sure, but he basically just shrugged it off, took the loss, and is ready onto whatever next big scheme he has)...

I keep seeing people in this thread talking about how the Vestige defeated so many Daedric Princes but it feels weird to say that because they truly never did so by themselves of their own power level... You could say that the Vestige was a platinum being carried by a grandmaster in some of these situations.

However, the dragons of Elswyr has been a really good situation to truly look at the Vestige's true power level in comparison to at least a Dragonborn and give us an idea where they are on the scale since the only outside help you really get when fighting the dragons in the main story quests are tools or Tharn himself really. No divine power, no outside help, no "defeating a daedric champion" to stop the Prince (not the Prince themselves)... Just killing a very powerful foe that we can truly measure in comparison.

The Ancient Nords Tongues were knocking Dragons out of Sky, I doubt they are as powerful as the Vestige, the Thu'um is a weapon that can counter Dragons, that is what makes the LDB better at killing them, sure they can also absorb their souls but I do not see why that was at all relevant given Dragons cannot come back to life under their own power anyway.

Although I wager the Ashen Lord is much more powerful then a Dragon and possibly other Vampire Lords as well, I simply cannot picture their kind in place of those Dragons who the tongues killed, I could not picture Lichs in that position either, I would argue Dragons are only the most powerful as far as "Destructive" power goes but despite that Destructive power they seem more like Glass Cannons to me.

AI will mentioned something else though, aren't Daedric Titans supposed to be "Stronger" then Dragons according to Molag Bal?

I'd say the Vestige is certainly the best at finding lost princesses.

Saxhleel wrote: »

The Champion of Cyrodiil: Killed Mannimarco, a god who is weaker than the average roadside thug in full glass armor, mantled Sheogorath, and defeated Jyggalag. A normal person at first, but became Sheogorath, and I don't care what anyone says. 2 Gods defeated, and became a god himself.

Okay... but...

Saxhleel wrote: »

The Last Dragonborn: Literally a loser. Harkon is a slightly above average vampire, Miraak was the better version of himself, and Alduin is Akatosh's son, but not really a god. A Dragonborn that can scream very good. (But so was every other important person in Tamriel.) Technically 1 god killed, but Alduin is also a slightly above average dragon.

If we're going with the Sheogorath mantling theory (which is pretty solid), then that also kicks the door open for the Shezzarine theory on Skryim (which reconciles a lot of wierdness you'll encounter during the game), such as how The Last Dragonborn can just casually splatter dragons on a whim, (even for a Dragonborn, these should be considerably more dangerous judging by their implementation in ESO.) TLD also, casually defeated Tsun in combat. It's not even a boss fight. Of course, one of the major evidences of the Shezzarine theory is that TLD can countermand Shor's orders.

The very short version of this theory is, it's highly likely that The Last Dragonborn is, quite literally, Talos incarnate.

Less verifiable is the theory that The Ebony Warrior is Ebonarm, a rarely mentioned god of war. Which would put TLD's god killing counter at a solid 2.