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How powerful was the main character in the TES games compared to

Grandchamp1989
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Elder Scrolls Online?

I can assume the main elder scrolls character's are more powerful as we can't shout and stuff in ESO.. Only yell in chat but that doesn't count.
But how more powerful are we talking? Are they comparable?
Edited by ZOS_Lunar on January 27, 2022 1:24PM

Best Answers

  • Saxhleel
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    The Eternal Champion: Killed some wannabe Uriel Septim. A normal person. 0 Gods defeated.

    The Agent: Gave Zurin Arctus his heart so he could die, and also made Mannimarco leave mortal affairs. Also a normal person. Technically 1 God defeated, if you count Mannimarco leaving defeated.

    The Nerevarine: Killed 2/3 of the Tribunal, 1/3 of Hircine, and Dagoth Ur. An ageless disease immune reincarnation of a Dunmer hero. 3 Gods killed, and 1/3 defeated.

    The Champion of Cyrodiil: Killed Mannimarco, a god who is weaker than the average roadside thug in full glass armor, mantled Sheogorath, and defeated Jyggalag. A normal person at first, but became Sheogorath, and I don't care what anyone says. 2 Gods defeated, and became a god himself.

    The Last Dragonborn: Literally a loser. Harkon is a slightly above average vampire, Miraak was the better version of himself, and Alduin is Akatosh's son, but not really a god. A Dragonborn that can scream very good. (But so was every other important person in Tamriel.) Technically 1 god killed, but Alduin is also a slightly above average dragon.

    The Vestige: Defeated Molag Bal, Sheogorath, Clavicus Vile, Nocturnal, and Mehrunes Dagon. Defeated a slightly above average Dragon and a better Harkon. Immortal unless specific rituals kill him. Probably multiple clones of this murderous psychopath. 5 gods defeated, and other powerful beings defeated. Proceed with caution.

    So from weakest to strongest:

    The Eternal Champion (Did basically nothing), The Agent (Just a guy that made Mannimarco leave and cause chaos in the Iliac Bay), The Last Dragonborn (An unspecial Dragonborn), The Nerevarine (Godkiller), The Champion of Cyrodiil (A literal god), and The Vestige (defeated CoC's god that wasn't him.)


    If the Vestige is slightly toned down a bit in the lore then it is the CoC.
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  • Ilsabet
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    Jusey1 wrote: »
    Plus, I remember deeply that it has been confirmed that our ESO hero is not as powerful as the LDB due to Elswyr expansion. The developers had went on to say that "We aren't as powerful as a Dragonborn. We do not have the tools to slaughter dragons like in Skyrim..." and thus dragons are the ONLY specific boss entity to be so powerful that you need scripted events to deal even a fraction of their health most of the time or have an extremely A LOT OF PLAYERS to fight one...

    This is an interesting point, but maybe not in the way you intended.

    The Last Dragonborn, by virtue of being dragonborn, has a skillset that is very effective at dealing with dragons. The Vestige can't match the effectiveness of that skillset in dealing with that very specific enemy, but it could easily be argued that the Vestige's versatility in effectively dealing with many other enemies (some of whom would be considered stronger than dragons) makes up for that one relative weakness.
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  • EF321
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    Well in TESIII my character is more powerful than a god
    Morrowind-2021-11-08-12-36-16-643.png
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  • TX12001rwb17_ESO
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    Actually I would argue the Vestige is now second only to the Champion of Cyrodiil who at the end of TES:Oblivion's Shivering Isles expansion became the new Sheogorath, incase you have never played it you become a God but the Vestige has fought multiple Gods before so I would argue they are closer to a God then a Mortal, a Demigod if you will as far as power goes.

    Also only the LDB out of all the protagonists could Shout, the Vestige among them however is the only one with Psijic training and who can revive when they are killed which means if they all fought, eventually the Vestige would win regardless of their level of power, even the CoC was still in their divine infancy so was only able to do it within their own realm but that could simply be down to game mechanics.

    Anyway that Psijic training grants superior abilities to even the capabilities of the LDB's Thu'um, they can only slow time, the Vestige can outright stop time and travel backwards through it for example.

    Lorewise a Blood Scion Vestige would be the most powerful version of the Vestige regardless of how they perform in gameplay, even if you like Werewolves you must admit greater Vampires are very powerful and Blood Scions have the Blood of the original Vampire flowing through their veins, compare that to being limited to being an ordinary Werewolf, even the Vampire Lord form of the LDB only has the Blood of the Volkihar which is a much younger bloodline then Lamae Bals.
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  • Grandchamp1989
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    EF321 wrote: »
    Well in TESIII my character is more powerful than a god
    Morrowind-2021-11-08-12-36-16-643.png

    Makes me wonder how we would fare if we had a chance to fight one of the tribunal's in ESO...

    Would it be a fight? or would Vivec just snap his finger and GG...

    We stop many Daedric plots by princes themselves though. Nocturnal and Mehrunes in particular spring to mind.
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  • TX12001rwb17_ESO
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    EF321 wrote: »
    Well in TESIII my character is more powerful than a god
    Morrowind-2021-11-08-12-36-16-643.png

    I killed him with a level 1 Werewolf.
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  • Call_of_Red_Mountain
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    ESO hero more powerful than any TES hero. He's immortal and kicked daedra princes many times already. Not talking about TAMRIEL HERO title and endless list from different humans, elves, creauters and organizations.

    BTW Cyro Champion aka Sheogorath not confirmed. Another fan theory. Personally I don't believe it. For me Oblivion character was a traveler who saved Tamriel in 4th Era. The end. ✌️
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  • SeaGtGruff
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    I would think that a typical ESO player's character is much more powerful than a typical player's character in single-player TES games, given how much more powerful a lot of enemies (bosses) are in ESO than enemies in single-player TES games.
    I've fought mudcrabs more fearsome than me!
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  • Harvokaan
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    Also only the LDB out of all the protagonists could Shout, the Vestige among them however is the only one with Psijic training and who can revive when they are killed which means if they all fought, eventually the Vestige would win regardless of their level of power, even the CoC was still in their divine infancy so was only able to do it within their own realm but that could simply be down to game mechanics.

    Not really true as all ES protagonists can survive with power of save and load (vivec even mentioned that in his dialogue with hortator in tes3 that he will never win against Nerevarine because he can repeat the fight as many times as he wants till he wins).

    Lorewise it is hard choice.
    Hero from TES3 would be probably the weakest lore wise but still incredibly powerful. Then probably Dragonborn (from lore perspective dragonborns were much more powerful then what we see in game). Probably the stongest mortal. Oblivion hero was the weakest till shivering isle, then he became the new Uncle Sheo.
    Vestige is probably on par with Nerevarine pure power wise when not helped out by any Prince but he have more allies then any of the protagonists, both mortal and immortal and when helped out by daedra he could probably be just below Sheo.
    It is hard to compare mechanic wise as power scaling in tes games was different each title. Volendrung in Skyrim was just a strong weapon but in eso it can wipe whole groups of ppl and destroy castle walls. I would say you can try to compare them from lore perspective as trying to do so from game mechanic point of view is pointless
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  • Danikat
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    First thing to consider is that each TES game has a different protagonist. The character you play in Arena is not the same one as in Skyrim or Morrowind. (I know some people's headcanon is that they're all the same, and there are ways to sort-of fit that into the games lore, but I mean officially.) They're also not all equally powerful.

    As far as I remember the player characters in Arena and Daggerfall are just normal people. They're not Dragonborn and can't do anything anyone else couldn't do. By the end of the game they're likely to be a very skilled fighter and/or mage but it's still learned skills which other people could learn as well. They may also be a vampire or werewolf, but again that's not a unique ability which makes them more powerful than any other vampire or werewolf.

    In Oblivion you're explicitly not Dragonborn (otherwise the main story could be very short and anticlimactic), but by the end of the DLC you can become a daedric prince, with all the powers and abilities that come with it.

    In Skyrim you are Dragonborn, but that only allows you to absorb dragon souls and use Shouts without years of practice and training. They're useful abilities but it's not like being about to Shout makes you an undefeatable force of nature, it's basically just another kind of magic.

    I'm not quite sure about Morrowind. You're the Nerevarine, the reincarnation of Indoril Nerevar, but I can't remember if that gives you any special abilities or if it's effectively just a title. But you are able to defeat Dagoth Ur in single combat, which no one else could do, and although it's not canon or part of the story it's possible to become strong enough without cheats to defeat Vivec.

    Then there's ESO where the player character technically starts off as a normal person but if you do the main quest you become the Vestige - a soul shriven who retains their sanity and is able to return to Nirn, but also retains the daedric ability to reform their body from Azure Plasm, making them functionally invincible and possibly immortal. They cannot be killed permanently by any normal means (some books and quest dialogue hint that it is possible via special rituals, but for obvious reasons we've never seen a successful attempt). This also grants a few other useful skills like the ability to teleport between wayshrines and the soulmagic skill line.

    So without the Shivering Isles DLC in Oblivion I'd put it:
    Arena/Daggerfall/Oblivion > Skyrim > Morrowind > ESO

    With the DLC I'd say:
    Arena/Daggerfall > Skyrim > Morrowind > ESO > Oblivion
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    "Remember in this game we call life that no one said it's fair"
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  • spartaxoxo
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    COC becoming Sheo is a fan theory, if we are to believe Kirkbride it wasn't the original intent. Original intent or not, if that's what made it into the final game is up for debate.

    If COC is Sheo then COC is more powerful. If not, the Vestige is imo

    You can see some of his thoughts here

    https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/General:Michael_Kirkbride's_Posts
    Edited by spartaxoxo on January 25, 2022 12:58PM
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  • Danikat
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    spartaxoxo wrote: »
    COC becoming Sheo is a fan theory, if we are to believe Kirkbride it wasn't the original intent. Original intent or not, if that's what made it into the final game is up for debate.

    If COC is Sheo then COC is more powerful. If not, the Vestige is imo

    You can see some of his thoughts here

    https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/General:Michael_Kirkbride's_Posts

    I don't understand this. It's literally what's in the DLC.

    How can 1 former writer (who left before Oblivion was developed) over-rule what is in the game itself?
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  • spartaxoxo
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    Danikat wrote: »
    spartaxoxo wrote: »
    COC becoming Sheo is a fan theory, if we are to believe Kirkbride it wasn't the original intent. Original intent or not, if that's what made it into the final game is up for debate.

    If COC is Sheo then COC is more powerful. If not, the Vestige is imo

    You can see some of his thoughts here

    https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/General:Michael_Kirkbride's_Posts

    I don't understand this. It's literally what's in the DLC.

    How can 1 former writer (who left before Oblivion was developed) over-rule what is in the game itself?

    It's not that he's over ruling anything. Just pointing out it was left to interpretation in the final copy whether or not COC is fully mantled in the metaphysical sense and is fully Sheo. And that in the original design documents this was not the case.
    Now, though, you have ended the cycle. You now hold the mantle of madness, and Jyggalag is free to roam the voids of Oblivion once more. I will take my leave, and you will remain here, mortal. Mortal...? King? God? It seems uncertain

    And that is what was said about it in the game. Basically they left a little wriggle room so you don't know for certain and COC can both be and not be fully Sheo, depending on interpretation.
    Edited by spartaxoxo on January 25, 2022 1:42PM
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  • Anifaas
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    I'd love to watch the vestige take on a dragon with only a dagger and an archmage's robe. ;)
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  • jaws343
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    spartaxoxo wrote: »
    Danikat wrote: »
    spartaxoxo wrote: »
    COC becoming Sheo is a fan theory, if we are to believe Kirkbride it wasn't the original intent. Original intent or not, if that's what made it into the final game is up for debate.

    If COC is Sheo then COC is more powerful. If not, the Vestige is imo

    You can see some of his thoughts here

    https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/General:Michael_Kirkbride's_Posts

    I don't understand this. It's literally what's in the DLC.

    How can 1 former writer (who left before Oblivion was developed) over-rule what is in the game itself?

    It's not that he's over ruling anything. Just pointing out it was left to interpretation in the final copy whether or not COC is fully mantled in the metaphysical sense and is fully Sheo. And that in the original design documents this was not the case.
    Now, though, you have ended the cycle. You now hold the mantle of madness, and Jyggalag is free to roam the voids of Oblivion once more. I will take my leave, and you will remain here, mortal. Mortal...? King? God? It seems uncertain

    And that is what was said about it in the game. Basically they left a little wriggle room so you don't know for certain and COC can both be and not be fully Sheo, depending on interpretation.

    Sheo in Skyrim directly references events from Oblivion as if he had lived them.
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  • Adremal
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    Depends: what's considered more powerful, apotheosis or deicide? It's a matter of perspective. I
    Danikat wrote: »
    spartaxoxo wrote: »
    COC becoming Sheo is a fan theory, if we are to believe Kirkbride it wasn't the original intent. Original intent or not, if that's what made it into the final game is up for debate.

    If COC is Sheo then COC is more powerful. If not, the Vestige is imo

    You can see some of his thoughts here

    https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/General:Michael_Kirkbride's_Posts

    I don't understand this. It's literally what's in the DLC.

    How can 1 former writer (who left before Oblivion was developed) over-rule what is in the game itself?

    Well, he's not just a writer, he's the crux around which TES cosmology is built. And given that it's built mirroring real life, I'm inclined to consider his writings more canon that anything in the games. Especially considering that We The Players are basically the Godhead (which is a painful yet encouraging realization seeing as how we're de facto trapped in a Dream ourselves).
    Edited by Adremal on January 25, 2022 2:27PM
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  • BXR_Lonestar
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    Elder Scrolls Online?

    I can assume the main elder scrolls character's are more powerful as we can't shout and stuff in ESO.. Only yell in chat but that doesn't count.
    But how more powerful are we talking? Are they comparable?

    Skyrim's Dragonborn is more powerful than any other character in TES. Why? Because I had a bow that could one-shot legendary dragons, I could summon dragons to fight for me, I could create thunderstorms at will or clear skyies at will. The vestige doesn't even come close!
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  • VaranisArano
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    While I don't think it's an easy comparison by the time we compare gameplay powers versus what a "real" individual would do in lore, there's a few direct comparisons we can make where they fought the same type of enemies (ignoring all differences in single player vs MMO).

    Both the Dragonborn and Vestige fight dragons. The Dragonborn can solo them handily, meanwhile the Vestige needs a group and dies whenever they miss a mechanic.

    Both the Dragonborn and the Vestige defeat Vampire Lords without much trouble, even if the Dragonborn doesn't use Auriel's Bow.

    Both the Vestige and the Nerevarine battle the Imperfect in Clockwork City. The Nerevarine solos it; the Vestige battles in a group.

    Pre-Shivering Isles, the Vestige handily keeps up with the Champion of Cyrodiil in terms of closing Oblivion Gates, battling through besieged cities, gathering allies, and defending important NPCs while they do the heavy lifting. After Shivering Isles, if past experience is any guide, CoC Sheogorath would do well to never give the Vestige reason to get the Divine Blessings needed to take them on. None of the other heroes operate on that level with Daedric Princes.

    The Vestige handily keeps up with the Eternal Champion in terms of adventuring all over Tamriel and solving riddles. The Vestige teams up with others to clear out Fang Lair and the Halls of Collosus long before the Eternal Champion comes around.

    Unfortunately, the Vestige is not quite as adept as political machinations as the Agent in Daggerfall, being perpetually blindsided by plot twists, sudden but inevitable betrayals, and red herrings. I get the feeling that the politically minded Agent and the Nerevarine would run rings around the Vestige once the fighting ended.

    Who's most powerful? Eh, not really a question I think we'll find a satisfying answer to.
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  • SeaGtGruff
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    I think you need to define what "powerful" means to you.

    Players in ESO commonly talk about doing 10K DPS, or 20K, or 30K, etc., up to 100K and more.

    How much DPS does a character in the single-player TES games do?
    I've fought mudcrabs more fearsome than me!
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  • Vevvev
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    Anifaas wrote: »
    I'd love to watch the vestige take on a dragon with only a dagger and an archmage's robe. ;)

    Challenge accepted
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  • zaria
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    EF321 wrote: »
    Well in TESIII my character is more powerful than a god
    Morrowind-2021-11-08-12-36-16-643.png
    Godslayer achievement received.
    Now this does not translate directly, I say Morrowind was the most broken game if you got addicted to fortify intelligence potions, now just boost you willpower and strength and you can cast any cost spells and you are one punch man, you can not use weapons as they break on hit so spec into unarmed.
    Now it was no point doing 10K dps in Morrowind as no enemy had 5K health and you only had couple of hundred health and reflect magic was very common.
    But flying over red mountain spamming fireballs like an B-52 was something.
    Now the werewolf labyrinth in Bloodmoon was interesting, as in who exploit did you use :)
    Grinding just make you go in circles.
    Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.
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  • SkaraMinoc
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    Stealth Archer from Skyrim can 1shot any ESO player.

    Case closed.
    PC NA
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  • Sawbones194
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    Like it has been ssid here: the Nerevarine can kill Vivec. Based on Kirkbrides list of the most powerful beings:

    Talos.

    The HoonDing.

    Trinimac.

    Vivec.

    Leki.

    Reman.

    Auri-El.

    Wulfharth.

    Morihaus.

    Pelinal.

    Many are certain that Cyrus from Redguard is a incarnation of HoonDing and thus stronger than Vivec. The Nerevarine is possible between Vivec and Trinimac or HoonDing. The Vestige is probably below the Champion of Cyrodiil/ Sheogorath. But how powerful the LDB is in all this might be quite tricky to answer.
    Edited by Sawbones194 on January 26, 2022 11:42PM
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  • TX12001rwb17_ESO
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    Elder Scrolls Online?

    I can assume the main elder scrolls character's are more powerful as we can't shout and stuff in ESO.. Only yell in chat but that doesn't count.
    But how more powerful are we talking? Are they comparable?

    Skyrim's Dragonborn is more powerful than any other character in TES. Why? Because I had a bow that could one-shot legendary dragons, I could summon dragons to fight for me, I could create thunderstorms at will or clear skyies at will. The vestige doesn't even come close!

    The CoC can sneak up behind Jyggalag and can 1 shot him if his stats are high enough, the Nerevarine can kill Vivec with his bare hands, a Dragon is not on par with Vivec and certainly not Jyggalag.
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  • Pinja
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    Dragon Born is probably by far the strongest on Nirn when faced with atypical magic. They can one-shot dragons, permanently wield practically all daedric artifacts, and make themselves momentarily invincible. They can master all forms of conventional combat. Although not at sophistication or diversity of the Champion of Cyrodiil, who could enchant his armor with any available form of alteration, craft any spell, and jump across water.

    However, none have attained a mastery of advanced magic better than Vestige. Although Vestige sticks to finite mastery of certain class skills, they can conduct cross plainer portal magic better than any mage seen ES. In addition to going head to head with daedric lords, by far beating the Champion of Cyrodiil, in this adaptation, who could not even harm Mehrunes dagon when he appeared in the Imperial City. And as some have pointed out Vestige has the means to traverse time without an Elder Scroll. At one point it was speculated whether they were Talos, the 9th divine.

    Whether Vestige could have defeated Vivic when Sunna'rah had him dead in his bed and obtained his divine power is arguable. So the Nerevarine's defeat of Vivic, while impressive, might not have fair equivalence. Although if we were to compare Vivic to the false god's of Sunspire, Vestige might be in trouble 1 on 1. Again looking at Sotha Sil's asylum, if he didn't let his Saint's become stronger than him, and assuming the Warrior-poet is on par with the Father of Mysteries. Vestige is most definitely in trouble 1 on 1.

    Now for the Nerevarine vs Dragon Born both could stack power to the point they could one-shot anything. However, as previously stated the Dragon Born can make themselves invincible. So trading blows DB would probably win.

    Only thing keeping CoC on the roster is that Vestige, despite all of his power, can only defeat slaughter fish with a fishing rod. CoC just uses his hands.
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  • tuxon
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    LDB aka Dovahkiin is avatar of Lorkhan/Shor (the god of creation) himself (just like Talos and Wulfharth as well) so...

    Resdayniil kan tarcel
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  • TX12001rwb17_ESO
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    Like it has been ssid here: the Nerevarine can kill Vivec. Based on Kirkbrides list of the most powerful beings:

    Talos.

    The HoonDing.

    Trinimac.

    Vivec.

    Leki.

    Reman.

    Auri-El.

    Wulfharth.

    Morihaus.

    Pelinal.

    Many are certain that Cyrus from Redguard is a incarnation of HoonDing and thus stronger than Vivec. The Nerevarine is possible between Vivec and Trinimac or HoonDing. The Vestige is probably below the Champion of Cyrodiil/ Sheogorath. But how powerful the LDB is in all this might be quite tricky to answer.

    Seems more like his favorites list because Pelinal or Morihaus are not more powerful then Alduin or Molag Bal or Jyggalag or Nocturnal or Peryite or Azura or Mehrunes Dagon or Sanguine or Hircine or Sheogorath or Mephala or Hermaeus Mora or Clavicius Vile or Akatosh or Arkay or Stendarr or any God I have not mentioned or any of the protagonists for that matter and yet not one of them is on the list..
    Edited by TX12001rwb17_ESO on January 27, 2022 12:51AM
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  • TX12001rwb17_ESO
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    SkaraMinoc wrote: »
    Stealth Archer from Skyrim can 1shot any ESO player.

    Case closed.

    But then the Vestige would revive themselves but If your going to use game mechanics here is a retort...

    Sadly the LDB's maximum DPS is only in the hundreds and only has a few hundred Health/Magikca/Stamina.

    The Vestige depending on their build can deal over 100k damage in a single hit and has tends of thousands of Health, the Legendary Archer will do barley do any damage to them.

    That is why you do not use game mechanics to debate things.
    Edited by TX12001rwb17_ESO on January 27, 2022 12:50AM
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  • TX12001rwb17_ESO
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    tuxon wrote: »
    LDB aka Dovahkiin is avatar of Lorkhan/Shor (the god of creation) himself (just like Talos and Wulfharth as well) so...

    No he isnt.
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  • TX12001rwb17_ESO
    TX12001rwb17_ESO
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    SeaGtGruff wrote: »
    I think you need to define what "powerful" means to you.

    Players in ESO commonly talk about doing 10K DPS, or 20K, or 30K, etc., up to 100K and more.

    How much DPS does a character in the single-player TES games do?

    Less then 100 DPS

    It is funny that people are actually trying to use game mechanics to argue this, if we are using game mechanics the Vestige takes all the Single Player protagonists at once including all the Spin-Off protagonists as well, you could probably add their villains onto the list as well and the Vestige would still STOMP them, in game terms not a single character from the single player games would survive even one light attack.

    Then you have people say "But the LDB can solo Dragons" well did people forget the Vestige does the same in the Story, it is just the World Boss dragons that require groups and that is all game mechanics, I could even turn this around and say the Vestige can 1 shot a Lich where as the LDB struggles against them, this is why game mechanics should not be included in a debate, only storyline feats should count.
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  • spartaxoxo
    spartaxoxo
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    SeaGtGruff wrote: »
    I think you need to define what "powerful" means to you.

    Players in ESO commonly talk about doing 10K DPS, or 20K, or 30K, etc., up to 100K and more.

    How much DPS does a character in the single-player TES games do?

    Less then 100 DPS

    It is funny that people are actually trying to use game mechanics to argue this, if we are using game mechanics the Vestige takes all the Single Player protagonists at once including all the Spin-Off protagonists as well, you could probably add their villains onto the list as well and the Vestige would still STOMP them, in game terms not a single character from the single player games would survive even one light attack.

    Then you have people say "But the LDB can solo Dragons" well did people forget the Vestige does the same in the Story, it is just the World Boss dragons that require groups and that is all game mechanics, I could even turn this around and say the Vestige can 1 shot a Lich where as the LDB struggles against them, this is why game mechanics should not be included in a debate, only storyline feats should count.

    I think certain gameplay mechanics should count if they are notable in the lore, but not stuff like whether a boss is designed for groups or solo play, dps, etc.

    Like the Vestige's immortality and wayshrine usage should probably be considered similar to the LDB's ability to shout. Those have story and lorebook ramifications and not purely gameplay ones. Whereas how much dps they are doing, which weapons they are using, how many shots things took to die, etc are all purely game constructs. The same is true of some bosses taking the Vestige multiple allies to do, this isn't because say the boss in say Fungal Grotto is meant to be stronger than say Veya was in Summerset. Veya is likely the canonically stronger opponent. It's just the fact that one is group dungeon content and the other is a story boss.

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  • Adremal
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    Game mechanics are just that, game mechanics. They should be ignored completely. I mean, the LDB can oneshot everything with Mehrunes' Razor (except for essential NPCs, which is another example as to why game mechanics should be ignored).
    Also, the LDB doesn't lag and can't get disconnected, and can travel through time (which begs the question, does achieving CHIM confers the ability to quicksave and quickload?). But he can crash to desktop and even and up in a corrupted savefile. Ouch.
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