As has been said before:

The purpose of the Dungeon Finder is NOT to provide everyone with a truly random daily dungeon.

It's to provide people who queue for specific dungeons with enough people to fill up a team, in the event of not being able to make a team (of the correct roles - Tank, Healer, 2xDD) out of those who have queued for specific dungeons. They do this by filling the spaces with people who, by choosing "random", attest that they don't care which dungeon they end up doing - because if you did care, you would have chosen Specific Dungeon instead of Random Dungeon.

So, chances are, there's at least one person in the dungeon who chose the specific dungeon. Possibly an actual team of two or three, or maybe two or three individuals who queued concurrently but couldn't be matched with a fourth role. To have a dungeon in which EVERYBODY is truly random, means either you queued as a four-man group for random, or else there aren't that many people queueing for specific dungeons right now and the top of the queue really was filled by a role-matched set of players from the Random queue.

The reward is specifically aimed to entice people to not care that they might end up with a harder or longer dungeon rather than an easier or shorter one.

That being said, I do kinda accept that the difference in length and difficulty between the easiest and hardest dungeons is too great, and the queue could do with being split by length and/or difficulty, with greater rewards for those who choose a random from the "hard" queue than from the "easy" queue. Similarly, there should be greater rewards for random "veteran" rather than random "normal": it makes no sense that 10 stones is the reward for both Normal and Veteran, even if one considered only the vanilla dungeons.

Kwoung wrote: »

It has probably been said, but if they simply limited dungeons offered to you in random queues to dungeons you actually owned, not added by your ESO+ sub, that would solve the issue. I personally have ESO+, and have purchased a number of DLC's, so it would be quite fair that I be dropped in content I specifically bought, and would probably increase sales of those DLC's that folks actually do want to end up in randomly because they happen to enjoy them... win win.

It would not solve the issue for the people trying to run those dungeons.

Kwoung wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

It has probably been said, but if they simply limited dungeons offered to you in random queues to dungeons you actually owned, not added by your ESO+ sub, that would solve the issue. I personally have ESO+, and have purchased a number of DLC's, so it would be quite fair that I be dropped in content I specifically bought, and would probably increase sales of those DLC's that folks actually do want to end up in randomly because they happen to enjoy them... win win.

It would not solve the issue for the people trying to run those dungeons.

Explain please.

What if you like that content? There are those of us that dont use the random to farm xp and crystals, just play and enjoy the game for what it is, not a second job. I would have to buy the DLC and ESO+?

This is really about the bonus, its not about choice. We already have the choice to exclude dungeons we dont want to do, we just don't get the bonus that way. The fairest thing to do would be to balance the rewards so that FG1 and LoM werent the same.

Maybe they should add "Easy" to "Normal" and "Vet". On Easy, the non-DLC dungeons would be basically the same but DLC dungeons are simplified mechs and easier fights. You would only get 5 transmutes for a random easy daily, and drops are green.

deejayvee wrote: »

Maybe they should add "Easy" to "Normal" and "Vet". On Easy, the non-DLC dungeons would be basically the same but DLC dungeons are simplified mechs and easier fights. You would only get 5 transmutes for a random easy daily, and drops are green.

These kinds of suggestions don't really address the core problem--the penalty for subbing versus not having a sub. Subbing shouldn't make things harder than cancelling your sub. Subbing shouldn't make rewards less than cancelling your sub.

What makes things worse is that the lack of access to DLC by non-subs makes it more likely that subs get pulled into a DLC than if everyone had access. It is a broken system.

The best solution right now is to just drop from group and re-queue after the timer ends. That makes things worse for those who don't want to abandon groups.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

deejayvee wrote: »

Maybe they should add "Easy" to "Normal" and "Vet". On Easy, the non-DLC dungeons would be basically the same but DLC dungeons are simplified mechs and easier fights. You would only get 5 transmutes for a random easy daily, and drops are green.

These kinds of suggestions don't really address the core problem--the penalty for subbing versus not having a sub. Subbing shouldn't make things harder than cancelling your sub. Subbing shouldn't make rewards less than cancelling your sub.

What makes things worse is that the lack of access to DLC by non-subs makes it more likely that subs get pulled into a DLC than if everyone had access. It is a broken system.

The best solution right now is to just drop from group and re-queue after the timer ends. That makes things worse for those who don't want to abandon groups.

Subbing or Not Subbing follows the exact same rules though. You aren't punished for subbing.

The rules of the activity finder for all players is that you must queue into every dungeon you meet the qualifications for

What ESO+ players actually want is the perk of being able to choose what they want to queue, and get paid for doing the dungeons they want to do instead of just every dungeon they qualify for.

And they are framing people not getting access to content they did not pay to access but others did, as a punishment to them.

It's not.

The queues are different because they follow completely reasonable and fair rules.

1) Nobody gets to pick what dungeon they want to do
2) You don't get to do content you didn't pay for

There is a difference in outcome, but NOT because ESO+ players are punished in anyway. They are not. In fact, their interests are literally protected by the activity finder. It ensures that they will be able to get quick, on-demand access to content they paid for and that it's functionality does NOT depend on anyone else. And that people who didn't pay for that content, don't get that content.

A product being functional and not given away for free protects the payment of someone who paid for the product and is not punishing a buyer. A punishment is not just a difference in outcome, it is something deliberate done to leave you with a negative experience. And in no way could them not giving away products for free to people who did not pay for them be considered deliberately giving you a negative experience.

And yes, if a developer has to choose between delivering a functional product to the people who paid for the product and want to use, and facilitate people breaking the product because they paid for the product and don't want to use it, they absolutely should be prioritizing delivering a functional product.

I admit it's a unique position for the activity finder to be in. But the activity finder helps ensure people who paid to use a dungeon can actually use the dungeons they paid for, and that takes priority over any other player concerns.

This is why this discussion is so hard. You just aren't interested in acknowledging the problem and instead frame it in a way that fits the narrow view you want to champion. "What ESO+ players actually want"? Really? And then you mischaracterize what they want? What they want is to not have longer road for their dailies than people who don't pay to support the game. They don't want things to get harder because they decided to support the game financially.

Player X doesn't have sub. Player X decides to try sub. They dislike the slower random queues. So they decide to ditch the sub the next month to not have those dungeons included.

You are latching on to some literalist semantics about "picking a dungeon." If you are saying they don't click the checkboxes, sure. But people do pick by deciding to not have access to dungeons. Some might decide to do the DLC dungeons during free weekends or during occasionally subbing to keep the dungeons out of their daily randoms.

The problem with your insistence on a narrow perspective is that everything in ESO+ is a package deal. You are forced to take the bad parts if you want the good parts. It is completely reasonable to complain about the bad parts so they can fix the problems with the offering. Don't force people to have access to DLC dungeons just because those people want the craft bag. I am all for developer monetizing their game so I am fine with ZOS putting the craft bag behind the sub paywall. The problem is tying that to access to the DLC dungeons. If they don't want to go a la carte because they feel that would hurt their bottom line, than it is time to add a toggle.

And if you are going to be a literalist, your point 2 is just not true as there are people who do Imperial City dungeons without having ever paid for them.

But everyone can just talk past one another and make arguments for the side they like. That is fair to do in these forums.

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

This is why this discussion is so hard. You just aren't interested in acknowledging the problem and instead frame it in a way that fits the narrow view you want to champion. "What ESO+ players actually want"? Really? And then you mischaracterize what they want? What they want is to not have longer road for their dailies than people who don't pay to support the game. They don't want things to get harder because they decided to support the game financially.

Yes. That's one reason, but it's not the most important one. But what they want is the ability to choose which dungeons they want to do, which is not an option for everyone. There has been like a single person that suggested this be solved by giving unpaid players access to those options. I also don't see too many people saying that they want ESO+ to not include those dungeons as part of it's offering.

The overwhelming majority have wanted an option to remove DLC from their queue in the form of a toggle. And it's the majority of the people's opinion on this, a way to toggle off the DLC because they don't like them due to them being more difficult, time consuming, or both.

Therefore what they want is the ability to pick and choose which dungeons they want and to still be rewarded for making that choice. This not completely unreasonable because there already players being rewarded who did not make that choice, but their queue is setup these ESO+ players want it by default.

If this wasn't about rewards, they already have that option. You can queue any group of dungeons you want and the guild finder will act
exactly the same. If you want to toggle out, then you inherently want the ability to pick and choose what you want.

The idea of it being a punishment is due to the fact that when you're not not subbed it is easier (in some people's opinon) to get the rewards.

When you consider that ONLY from the ESO+ people who want to skip it, that sounds reasonable.

When you look at it from the perspective of Zenimax, the reason for that is that they aren't giving people dungeon access for free that others have paid for. That makes describing it as a punishment sound a lot less reasonable. Why would Zenimax be giving people access to that content for free. And then look at it from the perspective of people who paid for those dungeons and want to use the finder for the express purpose it is built for, to find them a group. Why shouldn't the be able to get groups for their dungeons? Is not protecting the functionality of the product they paid real money for of vital importance?

And then there's also the inherent assumption being made here by people who don't want them in their ESO+ sub that people without subs are better off, as if those people would also agree that not having the DLC is a good thing for them. Some of them probably would, but some of them would probably want that DLC, actually. But don't have it for various reasons.

It is not that I am looking at it from a too narrow perspective, but that I have looked at it from all sides and I don't see breaking the functionality of the group finder to be a positive.


In this case Zenimax has two groups of paying customers that they need to protect the interest of:

The people who paid for that dungeon, including by owning ESO+, and WANT to find people for those dungeons so they can actually play the dungeons they paid to do

The people who paid for that dungeon but don't want them in their RND

In this case, they can't protect both of those interests. If they made it a toggle, it would likely break the dungeon finder and people who paid real money for them wouldn't be able to do them. If they don't make a toggle, a lot of people will be irritated that they have to run those dungeons now when they didn't before. In the end, protecting the functionality of the product is the higher priority, as it should be IMO.

I don't really mind getting DLC dungeons for RND, as I can always get a new set item out of it via the sicker book. But just to sweeten the deal, if you do randomly get a DLC dungeon, the game should throw in extra crystals or XP or some extra stuff just for putting in the extra time and effort to help others get a clear.

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

No, they DO NOT want to pick and choose. Stop putting words into their mouths.

All they want is the same easy daily option that people without a sub have. That is it.

Now, some of those people might suggest a workaround of letting people select dungeons. Others might just want to remove the DLC, which is the title of this thread. Please just stop putting words into people's mouths. You can disagree with what people say without resorting to mischaracterizing what they said.

I haven't mischaracterized anything a TON of people have asked for a toggle.

edit:

Literally in the first post

Vrienda wrote: »

*Deep Breath* Just please let me untick DLC in ESO+ I don’t want access to.

They want to pick and choose, wanting an option is literally wanting a choice. It is entirely accurate.

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

These kinds of suggestions don't really address the core problem--the penalty for subbing versus not having a sub. Subbing shouldn't make things harder than cancelling your sub. Subbing shouldn't make rewards less than cancelling your sub.

I think the core problem is that DLC dungeons are seen as a penalty. If they weren't, subbing would be seen as paying for more content, which is what I assume is the intent.

So rather than just exclude them, a solution would be to make the DLC dungeons easier. However, that conflicts with another regular complaint, that overland content was made too easy. So the logical solution, to me, was to create another tier.

Vrienda wrote: »

What the title says. Ideally remove it from the game and stop developing them. But at the very least don’t have me queue for a normal dungeon and get cradle of shadows where the healer immediately quits and leaves me [snip]

I love the craft bag but having dlc dungeons in my random queue when I want to just get my endeavour done and get some exp for my necro is a punishment I’m not sure is worth it. 90% of these dungeons you keep adding drop trash sets nobody uses and stories the go-go-go multiplayer part of the game has no interest in letting me experience. They’re pointless wastes of dev time that would be better served producing a second small zone dlc.

*Deep Breath* Just please let me untick DLC in ESO+ I don’t want access to.

[Snip for Insulting/Baiting]

Perfectly understand your sentiment you are not alone. However there is a solution, queue with someone level 10-44.
Not only the queue time will be faster if you are DD but you will only get base game dungeons. If you have no friends pop in Auridon, Glenumbra etc starter zones and ask for level 10+ to join random dungeon.

Personally if we could remove 2 DLC dungeons from the queue I will be happy with the rest. These are MOS & Cauldron. The rest are OK in for random normal.

I like them since I play a tanks mainly gives me something to do soon has pick on or que for randoms. so hope they stay part of eso+ part of why I have it. Please keep them !

No

While we're at it, can we please remove skilled PvPers from random daily battlegrounds so I can be guaranteed an easy win?