PVE Heavy Attack Builds Produce half the DPS

Eiregirl · November 2021

I made this same reply on another thread about LA vs HA.

The combat system should be fluid just like the skill system and the gear system, shouldn’t it?

There are many different skill and gear setups people can use and still produce roughly the same amount of damage so why should it be any different between LA rotations and HA rotations?

ZOS promoted the game before launch and has stated many many times over the years that The Elder Scrolls Online is a game where people can play how they want.

People claim that light attack weaving and animation canceling show more skill but it really does not it is just a faster style of game play that requires muscle memory from repeated actions just like a heavy attack rotation does. There is no huge amount of skill difference from learning a heavy attack rotation vs a light attack rotation because they both take repeated actions to learn. I will agree that LA weaving will take a little more time for some people to get use to and learn but it is still not a huge amount of time. I will also agree that a HA rotation is easier for most people to learn but still not a huge time gap from learning a LA rotation. Both of these rotations are based on timing and neither of these rotations is just spamming a light or heavy attack.

It is more or less a preference of how a person wants and enjoys playing the game and just because someone likes playing the game one way does not mean everyone should or even wants to play that same way.

The biggest argument between the two styles of play that many people have is the amount of damage a LA rotation has over a HA rotation and they want to reduce that disparity. I have no real problem with that since I have characters that play both styles and would like to see both styles of play be closer on damage output.

Eiregirl · November 2021

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

perfiction wrote: »

sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »

However half the damage per second output for a heavy attack build is not balanced.

Why not? HA builds require way less and actions per minute (and skill), it's completely balanced that they deal less damage overall.

Why would you cut out the sentences where he acknowledged that just to tell him information that's in the opening post? What a strawman. He literally says the opposite in his post.

He feels it should be 80% of the damage rather than half. That is not wanting it to be the same as light attack damage.

Yeah, that is not a strawman argument. People love to use that term, but that is not what happened here. Seems like a reasonable disagreement about how much damage a light attack build should do compared to a heavy attack, with a justification given as to why. Not everything is a strawman...

To the OP, I am all for heavy attacks being viable. There are two numbers that seem to be out of left field. One the fact that heavy attack builds do 50% of the damage of light attack builds. Do we know this is true? Do we have dummy parses of the optimum LA vs HA build? I am not saying you are wrong, but it sounds low to me. It was certainly much higher than that historically, but I do know that HA builds have been nerfed over time. That always sounds silly to me because ZOS is always suggesting they are trying to raise the floor without lowering the ceiling too much. Buffing HA builds would be an excellent way to do that.

The other part is you say they should do 80%, but really don't give any context as to why that is the case. Why not 75% or 90%, etc. The APM argument seems to be a reasonable justification to support the 50%. If a heavy attack is roughly two seconds, and you weave with them, that would suggest you are doing about 60 APM (every two seconds is one HA, on skill). A LA build is 120 APM, so doing double the DPS is not unreasonable in that context. Now certainly, that should not be the only controlling factor, but it should be in the discussion.

There are no PVE HA builds that I've seen that peak over 55k dps, I've seen many PVE LA builds that do over 100-110k dps. I have no dummy parses because none build for HA. If anyone can produce a pure PVE HA build that does 80k dps please posted it.

HA take 3 seconds if they took 2 seconds I think the problem would go away.

I quote Ksariyu,
"... the tradeoff for the slower attack is the risk of it not finishing and you taking a big hit. APM does not equal skill outright."

Yeah, people are doing more than 55k with HA builds. As suggested, scroll up. Also, are HAs a full three seconds? I know way back when, they were different for different weapon types and range from roughly 1.5-2.5, but I thought there was some attempt to standardize them. 3 sounds long, but again, I am not 100% sure on the length. The longer they are, the easier a HA rotation is to perform, and arguably, the less DPS is should do.

APMs may not equal skill, but they highly correlate to skill. The ability to maintain high APMs while respecting/playing mechanics is what separates the good from the great. The ability to perform high APMs in a vacuum is what separates the bad from the good for the most part.

I really don't object to your premise, which is that HA builds could probably use some love, but I think some of your assumptions are faulty.

Yes Bear a heavy attack is 3 seconds

Oreyn_Bearclaw · November 2021

Eiregirl wrote: »

I made this same reply on another thread about LA vs HA.

The combat system should be fluid just like the skill system and the gear system, shouldn’t it?

There are many different skill and gear setups people can use and still produce roughly the same amount of damage so why should it be any different between LA rotations and HA rotations?

ZOS promoted the game before launch and has stated many many times over the years that The Elder Scrolls Online is a game where people can play how they want.

People claim that light attack weaving and animation canceling show more skill but it really does not it is just a faster style of game play that requires muscle memory from repeated actions just like a heavy attack rotation does. There is no huge amount of skill difference from learning a heavy attack rotation vs a light attack rotation because they both take repeated actions to learn. I will agree that LA weaving will take a little more time for some people to get use to and learn but it is still not a huge amount of time. I will also agree that a HA rotation is easier for most people to learn but still not a huge time gap from learning a LA rotation. Both of these rotations are based on timing and neither of these rotations is just spamming a light or heavy attack.

It is more or less a preference of how a person wants and enjoys playing the game and just because someone likes playing the game one way does not mean everyone should or even wants to play that same way.

The biggest argument between the two styles of play that many people have is the amount of damage a LA rotation has over a HA rotation and they want to reduce that disparity. I have no real problem with that since I have characters that play both styles and would like to see both styles of play be closer on damage output.

I really struggle to agree with that part. Right or wrong, HA rotations are way easier to perform IMO. If a heavy attack is really 3 seconds, you are basically talking about 40 APMs vs 120 APMs, not counting movement, potions, or bar swaps. People like to push back on the notion that LA rotations are skill based, but I don't have a better word for it. I think the pushback frankly comes mostly from people that cant do LA rotations (not saying that is you) and don't want to admit they are unskilled. Its like saying that playing a complex musical scale of half notes takes the same skill as playing it with 1/8th notes. It's simply not true.

Eiregirl · November 2021

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Eiregirl wrote: »

I made this same reply on another thread about LA vs HA.

The combat system should be fluid just like the skill system and the gear system, shouldn’t it?

There are many different skill and gear setups people can use and still produce roughly the same amount of damage so why should it be any different between LA rotations and HA rotations?

ZOS promoted the game before launch and has stated many many times over the years that The Elder Scrolls Online is a game where people can play how they want.

People claim that light attack weaving and animation canceling show more skill but it really does not it is just a faster style of game play that requires muscle memory from repeated actions just like a heavy attack rotation does. There is no huge amount of skill difference from learning a heavy attack rotation vs a light attack rotation because they both take repeated actions to learn. I will agree that LA weaving will take a little more time for some people to get use to and learn but it is still not a huge amount of time. I will also agree that a HA rotation is easier for most people to learn but still not a huge time gap from learning a LA rotation. Both of these rotations are based on timing and neither of these rotations is just spamming a light or heavy attack.

It is more or less a preference of how a person wants and enjoys playing the game and just because someone likes playing the game one way does not mean everyone should or even wants to play that same way.

The biggest argument between the two styles of play that many people have is the amount of damage a LA rotation has over a HA rotation and they want to reduce that disparity. I have no real problem with that since I have characters that play both styles and would like to see both styles of play be closer on damage output.

I really struggle to agree with that part. Right or wrong, HA rotations are way easier to perform IMO. If a heavy attack is really 3 seconds, you are basically talking about 40 APMs vs 120 APMs, not counting movement, potions, or bar swaps. People like to push back on the notion that LA rotations are skill based, but I don't have a better word for it. I think the pushback frankly comes mostly from people that cant do LA rotations (not saying that is you) and don't want to admit they are unskilled. Its like saying that playing a complex musical scale of half notes takes the same skill as playing it with 1/8th notes. It's simply not true.

Sorry Bear but on my characters whether they do LA or HA rotations I could care less about APM’s as long as the rotation goes smoothly and whatever is standing in front of me dies then in my mind all is good.

I can understand where some people may feel it takes more skill to do a LA animation canceling rotation but some pick it up fast while some don’t and like I said the LA rotation does take a little longer.

While some of the pushback may be and probably is from those who are unskilled (don’t want to do it) or unable due to a handicap (ones who actually cannot). The pushback from the so called unskilled are able to do it but probably just don’t want to or are to lazy to get good at it which only takes repetition. Either way I still feel the damage gap between the two should be smaller than it is.

A problem some people may have is probably their bar set up. To do good rotations on multiple characters it is important that the bars are set up so you are pressing the same keys in a rotation no matter what character you are on.
As and example if you have a character where you need to hit 12345 and another where you do 24315 (bar swap removed for clarity) you are going to screw up moving between characters and perhaps not have all the passives some skills will give you. That is only one of several problems people can be causing for themselves. I sometimes have problems when I switch between characters that use a HA rotation rather than LA rotation.

I stand by the fact that no matter what rotation a person wants to use any good rotation is based on timing. Just start slow and go faster and faster until no matter whether you have a LA rotation or a HA rotation once you reach the speed your rotation requires or the speed you are able to do then you are good to go in my opinion and that is the only thing target dummies are good for, building up the speed of your rotation. No battle plan survives contact with the enemy and they sure a hell do not look like a target dummy.

The flute and piccolo came easy to me but then again I have played them since I was a kid perhaps that and being able to type without looking at the keys makes the game a bit easier for me.

Kessra · November 2021

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

I really struggle to agree with that part. Right or wrong, HA rotations are way easier to perform IMO. If a heavy attack is really 3 seconds, you are basically talking about 40 APMs vs 120 APMs, not counting movement, potions, or bar swaps. People like to push back on the notion that LA rotations are skill based, but I don't have a better word for it. I think the pushback frankly comes mostly from people that cant do LA rotations (not saying that is you) and don't want to admit they are unskilled. Its like saying that playing a complex musical scale of half notes takes the same skill as playing it with 1/8th notes. It's simply not true.

There is technically no difference in difficulty between a light attack and a heavy attack. In both cases you click the left mouse button. In the case of LA you just tip it shortly while for HA you hold it longer. So the argument of LA require more skill is IMO incorrect. In the end your rotation might be more complex as you spam a lot more skills in the same time, but often skills are aligned in a way that you only have to keep track of 2 abilities and toggle between those. Sure, there are definitely more complex rotations available, but these lead to constant swapping bars and stuff but only grantin some further DPS that at that level also don't change much in the overall outcome. And don't forget, this is a game made for fun and enjoyment. I know a lot of people who play this game for the stories, for experiencing the world and not to sit 24/7 for a couple of weeks in front of a damage dummy to learn a rotation by heart that more or less gets invalid after 3 month when the next content patch hits the server.

In the end we have a situation where over-ambitious players meet very casual players and these systems do not work well together for the most parts. Pros don't understand how casual want to experience the game as casuals rarely get the motivation of pros. And the result is when running random dungeons 150k+ DPS people meet <10k DPS people and usually the former ones rush through the dungeon ruining the experience of the latter one as any second spent more in that dungeon is simply time wasted.

Most of my friends who tried out ESO found it illogic that light attacks deal more damage than heavy ones. The name light already assumes that the expected damage should be notably less in comparison to heavy attacks which actually should feel impactful. I already mentioned that in an other thread the damage of light attacks need to be brought down significantly and instead should replenish resources (as HAs should). Weaving in LA/HA should add up in total, but not to a degree it currently does. The resources restored through LA should be on paar with HA for the same duration. People should not be forced to play either LA or HAs if they don't want to but if they do so replenish some of their resources. HA on the contrary should deal definitely more damage in order to compensate for the time stuck in that preparation.

Also, the discussion so far seemed to ignore PvP as a whole. PvP is basically a game where you should read the intentions of your opponent and counter it as good as you can. There is no way to counter animation-canceled LA but there are multiple ways to counter HAs. HAs in PvP not only suffer from dealing less damage compared to LA builds, in the build-up phase you also don't deal pressure to your opponent at all but are exposed to such from your opponent for the whole duration the HA needs to fire off. And if you had the time and lack of pressure to get off your HA it should hurt. It should punish your opponent for not appropriately reacting upon it.

Seeing that plenty of skills/sets operate on LAs is also not that benefitial to really advocate for multiple different playstiles. After all, ESO advertises itself as play as you want, but the realitiy unfortunately is far away from that slogan.

MudcrabAttack · November 2021

Heavy attack builds only doing 50%????

Nah more like 85%+ if you Dual Wield

This is a stamina build that's typically focused on direct damage, I made no change other than going with fewer spammables and using heavy attacks while on the front bar.

A DOT-focused heavy attack build should do way better dps. Normally I'd hit 109k with pure light attack weaving on this Stamblade.

If you want to do this with a bow build forget it, bow heavy attacks are absolutely horrible, they give you gray hair from making you wait too long. I haven't tried it with a fire staff, but it would probably be awful too

sonwon.1_ESO · November 2021

Tannus15 wrote: »

sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

perfiction wrote: »

sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »

However half the damage per second output for a heavy attack build is not balanced.

Why not? HA builds require way less and actions per minute (and skill), it's completely balanced that they deal less damage overall.

Why would you cut out the sentences where he acknowledged that just to tell him information that's in the opening post? What a strawman. He literally says the opposite in his post.

He feels it should be 80% of the damage rather than half. That is not wanting it to be the same as light attack damage.

Yeah, that is not a strawman argument. People love to use that term, but that is not what happened here. Seems like a reasonable disagreement about how much damage a light attack build should do compared to a heavy attack, with a justification given as to why. Not everything is a strawman...

To the OP, I am all for heavy attacks being viable. There are two numbers that seem to be out of left field. One the fact that heavy attack builds do 50% of the damage of light attack builds. Do we know this is true? Do we have dummy parses of the optimum LA vs HA build? I am not saying you are wrong, but it sounds low to me. It was certainly much higher than that historically, but I do know that HA builds have been nerfed over time. That always sounds silly to me because ZOS is always suggesting they are trying to raise the floor without lowering the ceiling too much. Buffing HA builds would be an excellent way to do that.

The other part is you say they should do 80%, but really don't give any context as to why that is the case. Why not 75% or 90%, etc. The APM argument seems to be a reasonable justification to support the 50%. If a heavy attack is roughly two seconds, and you weave with them, that would suggest you are doing about 60 APM (every two seconds is one HA, on skill). A LA build is 120 APM, so doing double the DPS is not unreasonable in that context. Now certainly, that should not be the only controlling factor, but it should be in the discussion.

There are no PVE HA builds that I've seen that peak over 55k dps, I've seen many PVE LA builds that do over 100-110k dps. I have no dummy parses because none build for HA. If anyone can produce a pure PVE HA build that does 80k dps please posted it.

HA take 3 seconds if they took 2 seconds I think the problem would go away.

I quote Ksariyu,
"... the tradeoff for the slower attack is the risk of it not finishing and you taking a big hit. APM does not equal skill outright."

scroll up, someone literally posted a video of an 88k ha build.

This is a hybrid build uses LA and HA.

sonwon.1_ESO · November 2021

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

perfiction wrote: »

sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »

However half the damage per second output for a heavy attack build is not balanced.

Why not? HA builds require way less and actions per minute (and skill), it's completely balanced that they deal less damage overall.

Why would you cut out the sentences where he acknowledged that just to tell him information that's in the opening post? What a strawman. He literally says the opposite in his post.

He feels it should be 80% of the damage rather than half. That is not wanting it to be the same as light attack damage.

Yeah, that is not a strawman argument. People love to use that term, but that is not what happened here. Seems like a reasonable disagreement about how much damage a light attack build should do compared to a heavy attack, with a justification given as to why. Not everything is a strawman...

To the OP, I am all for heavy attacks being viable. There are two numbers that seem to be out of left field. One the fact that heavy attack builds do 50% of the damage of light attack builds. Do we know this is true? Do we have dummy parses of the optimum LA vs HA build? I am not saying you are wrong, but it sounds low to me. It was certainly much higher than that historically, but I do know that HA builds have been nerfed over time. That always sounds silly to me because ZOS is always suggesting they are trying to raise the floor without lowering the ceiling too much. Buffing HA builds would be an excellent way to do that.

The other part is you say they should do 80%, but really don't give any context as to why that is the case. Why not 75% or 90%, etc. The APM argument seems to be a reasonable justification to support the 50%. If a heavy attack is roughly two seconds, and you weave with them, that would suggest you are doing about 60 APM (every two seconds is one HA, on skill). A LA build is 120 APM, so doing double the DPS is not unreasonable in that context. Now certainly, that should not be the only controlling factor, but it should be in the discussion.

There are no PVE HA builds that I've seen that peak over 55k dps, I've seen many PVE LA builds that do over 100-110k dps. I have no dummy parses because none build for HA. If anyone can produce a pure PVE HA build that does 80k dps please posted it.

HA take 3 seconds if they took 2 seconds I think the problem would go away.

I quote Ksariyu,
"... the tradeoff for the slower attack is the risk of it not finishing and you taking a big hit. APM does not equal skill outright."

Yeah, people are doing more than 55k with HA builds. As suggested, scroll up. Also, are HAs a full three seconds? I know way back when, they were different for different weapon types and range from roughly 1.5-2.5, but I thought there was some attempt to standardize them. 3 sounds long, but again, I am not 100% sure on the length. The longer they are, the easier a HA rotation is to perform, and arguably, the less DPS is should do.

APMs may not equal skill, but they highly correlate to skill. The ability to maintain high APMs while respecting/playing mechanics is what separates the good from the great. The ability to perform high APMs in a vacuum is what separates the bad from the good for the most part.

I really don't object to your premise, which is that HA builds could probably use some love, but I think some of your assumptions are faulty.

That video is a hybrid build uses LA and HA.

3 seconds on lightening, not sure for all the other weapons although it feels like 3 seconds on my tanks with sword and board and 2 hander.

Using APM as your balance for builds excludes physically challenged players. I don't know of anyone who is asking for PVE HA builds to match every other build out there just for less imbalance. And APM is typically a PVP measure and I am strictly focused on PVE.

Many builds are more or less cookie cutter builds with a few adaptation here and there.

Anyone that still thinks that a PVE HA build can perform over 85K dps with only HA then please produce a parse made recently.

sonwon.1_ESO · November 2021

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

Heavy attack builds only doing 50%????

Nah more like 85%+ if you Dual Wield

This is a stamina build that's typically focused on direct damage, I made no change other than going with fewer spammables and using heavy attacks while on the front bar.

A DOT-focused heavy attack build should do way better dps. Normally I'd hit 109k with pure light attack weaving on this Stamblade.

If you want to do this with a bow build forget it, bow heavy attacks are absolutely horrible, they give you gray hair from making you wait too long. I haven't tried it with a fire staff, but it would probably be awful too

Another LA HA hybrid parse.

Please present a parse with zero LAs.

Succuby · November 2021

I think it is possible to make around 70k with only HA on atro, but i dislike that sets like inphelible aether is HA only set, undaunted infiltrator - ha set too.

But how much is possible to do makeing LA on it ? Small numbers. The same for HA it do not give good damage output. Relequin may be can give better output and it is LA set, that even on HA gives good numbers.

Inphelible aether may be need a little more love ?

https://youtu.be/DgAyU5Eyz-I

Plus to all this undaunted infiltrator is now prebaff set - it is not comfortable to activate it. For me is a little strange that in some Kinrass + relequin may be is possible to make more HA + LA dps than on HA + LA designed sets.

Aether is too weak in current reality

It is good set but it need better numbers or its numbers add to LA too as example.

sonwon.1_ESO · November 2021

Succuby wrote: »

I think it is possible to make around 70k with only HA on atro, but i dislike that sets like inphelible aether is HA only set, undaunted infiltrator - ha set too.

But how much is possible to do makeing LA on it ? Small numbers. The same for HA it do not give good damage output. Relequin may be can give better output and it is LA set, that even on HA gives good numbers.

Inphelible aether may be need a little more love ?

https://youtu.be/DgAyU5Eyz-I

Plus to all this undaunted infiltrator is now prebaff set - it is not comfortable to activate it. For me is a little strange that in some Kinrass + relequin may be is possible to make more HA + LA dps than on HA + LA designed sets.

Aether is too weak in current reality It is good set but it need better numbers or its numbers add to LA too as example.

Another LA HA hybrid video.

Hmm, 70k dps on pure HA, I would like to see that video.

zaria · November 2021

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

ThePedge wrote: »

You use potions on cooldown anyway for their effects.

How widespread is that, really? Does the normal player chug potions regularly, or is it just the "imma maximizing mah deeps!"/hardmode crew? Only vet level? Only trials?

(edit: to be honest, having gamed for decades with games where consumables are emergency supplies to only be used when Really Needed, the idea of chain-chugging potions on cooldown has always seemed bizarre to me.)

I use potions on cooldown on bosses where I know this will be an longish fight, mostly trash potions or the free 3 stat crown on tanks. The crafted are reserved for hard fights like vet dlc and vet trials and I hate then I forget to swap them out afterward.

LashanW · November 2021

sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »

Please present a parse with zero LAs.

That's very tough actually, if you are used to LA weaving. It's very difficult to un-learn. Once I wanted to do parse without any LAs and I just couldn't do it normally. I had to go into settings and disable the mouse button for light attacks. Wouldn't work here as that disable heavy attacks as well.

colossalvoids · November 2021

sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »

Succuby wrote: »

I think it is possible to make around 70k with only HA on atro, but i dislike that sets like inphelible aether is HA only set, undaunted infiltrator - ha set too.

But how much is possible to do makeing LA on it ? Small numbers. The same for HA it do not give good damage output. Relequin may be can give better output and it is LA set, that even on HA gives good numbers.

Inphelible aether may be need a little more love ?

https://youtu.be/DgAyU5Eyz-I

Plus to all this undaunted infiltrator is now prebaff set - it is not comfortable to activate it. For me is a little strange that in some Kinrass + relequin may be is possible to make more HA + LA dps than on HA + LA designed sets.

Aether is too weak in current reality It is good set but it need better numbers or its numbers add to LA too as example.

Another LA HA hybrid video.

Hmm, 70k dps on pure HA, I would like to see that video.

I'm not quite sure what you're willing to see exactly? A build that do a heavy between every skill he's casting no matter timings, class conditions and just wasting time between each skill right? Or just not casting anything at all with a mouse while recasting dots or using an execute for example? Because heavy attack builds absolutely do use light attacks when necessary (heavy is just used instead of a spammable, usually buffed by a degeneration skill), if that's not just people having no idea what they're doing or a simple 1-2 dots down and spam ha builds.

When you're asking for a good parse it's automatically includes knowledge and good execution, if you want pure ha with all the downtimes or a one bar build with for example pets to be competitive it's basically as asking why 1h sword build without any other weapon equipped underperforming, the answer is already here.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · November 2021

Kessra wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

I really struggle to agree with that part. Right or wrong, HA rotations are way easier to perform IMO. If a heavy attack is really 3 seconds, you are basically talking about 40 APMs vs 120 APMs, not counting movement, potions, or bar swaps. People like to push back on the notion that LA rotations are skill based, but I don't have a better word for it. I think the pushback frankly comes mostly from people that cant do LA rotations (not saying that is you) and don't want to admit they are unskilled. Its like saying that playing a complex musical scale of half notes takes the same skill as playing it with 1/8th notes. It's simply not true.

There is technically no difference in difficulty between a light attack and a heavy attack. In both cases you click the left mouse button. In the case of LA you just tip it shortly while for HA you hold it longer. So the argument of LA require more skill is IMO incorrect. In the end your rotation might be more complex as you spam a lot more skills in the same time, but often skills are aligned in a way that you only have to keep track of 2 abilities and toggle between those. Sure, there are definitely more complex rotations available, but these lead to constant swapping bars and stuff but only grantin some further DPS that at that level also don't change much in the overall outcome. And don't forget, this is a game made for fun and enjoyment. I know a lot of people who play this game for the stories, for experiencing the world and not to sit 24/7 for a couple of weeks in front of a damage dummy to learn a rotation by heart that more or less gets invalid after 3 month when the next content patch hits the server.

In the end we have a situation where over-ambitious players meet very casual players and these systems do not work well together for the most parts. Pros don't understand how casual want to experience the game as casuals rarely get the motivation of pros. And the result is when running random dungeons 150k+ DPS people meet <10k DPS people and usually the former ones rush through the dungeon ruining the experience of the latter one as any second spent more in that dungeon is simply time wasted.

Most of my friends who tried out ESO found it illogic that light attacks deal more damage than heavy ones. The name light already assumes that the expected damage should be notably less in comparison to heavy attacks which actually should feel impactful. I already mentioned that in an other thread the damage of light attacks need to be brought down significantly and instead should replenish resources (as HAs should). Weaving in LA/HA should add up in total, but not to a degree it currently does. The resources restored through LA should be on paar with HA for the same duration. People should not be forced to play either LA or HAs if they don't want to but if they do so replenish some of their resources. HA on the contrary should deal definitely more damage in order to compensate for the time stuck in that preparation.

Also, the discussion so far seemed to ignore PvP as a whole. PvP is basically a game where you should read the intentions of your opponent and counter it as good as you can. There is no way to counter animation-canceled LA but there are multiple ways to counter HAs. HAs in PvP not only suffer from dealing less damage compared to LA builds, in the build-up phase you also don't deal pressure to your opponent at all but are exposed to such from your opponent for the whole duration the HA needs to fire off. And if you had the time and lack of pressure to get off your HA it should hurt. It should punish your opponent for not appropriately reacting upon it.

Seeing that plenty of skills/sets operate on LAs is also not that benefitial to really advocate for multiple different playstiles. After all, ESO advertises itself as play as you want, but the realitiy unfortunately is far away from that slogan.

This just simply isnt true. I am honestly shocked at the pushback. A Light attack rotation requires precise timing if you are trying to maximize DPS, i.e., get as close to 1 cast and skill per second. You have to be able to hold that tempo through movement, bar swaps, etc. Maintaining Tempo is what makes a LA rotation difficult, not the pressing of two buttons consecutively.

*Now the reality is, most people arent even close to that. I look at a lot of parse recaps trying to help people, and most are in the .7-.8 LAs/Sec range. Its also why they are only pulling 70-80k when those in the .95 range are pulling north of 100k. Tempo/Pace (without missing LAs) is everything. That's the skill.

A heavy attack rotation is so much easier by comparison. You simply hold down LMB. There is a massive window where you simply can press a skill button (you can even spam it a few times if you want), and it will auto fire once the HA completes. The tempo is controlled for you by default. Pace is what separates the good from the great in a LA rotation, and a HA rotation removes it from the equation. You also have a much longer window to decide what skill needs to be cast next. There is a night and day difference in terms of difficulty. Now if you wanted to say that a lousy LA rotation is the same as a competent HA rotation fine, but that is not what I am talking about.

Put it another way. I suppose you can make the augment that both require, LMB>Skill, LMB>Skill, but if you are trying to push the pace to maximum effectiveness , LA weaving is much more difficult. Maybe LA weaving at a pace of like .7 is on par with a HA rotation, but doing it a pace of .95/sec is wildly more difficult. For the purposes of comparing the DPS potential of the two, you need to look at what they are actually capable of, which is the later. The difference between .7 and .95 Casts/sec in a LA rotation is skill. If it wasn't, everyone could do it. They cant!

Oreyn_Bearclaw · November 2021

sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

perfiction wrote: »

sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »

However half the damage per second output for a heavy attack build is not balanced.

Why not? HA builds require way less and actions per minute (and skill), it's completely balanced that they deal less damage overall.

Why would you cut out the sentences where he acknowledged that just to tell him information that's in the opening post? What a strawman. He literally says the opposite in his post.

He feels it should be 80% of the damage rather than half. That is not wanting it to be the same as light attack damage.

Yeah, that is not a strawman argument. People love to use that term, but that is not what happened here. Seems like a reasonable disagreement about how much damage a light attack build should do compared to a heavy attack, with a justification given as to why. Not everything is a strawman...

To the OP, I am all for heavy attacks being viable. There are two numbers that seem to be out of left field. One the fact that heavy attack builds do 50% of the damage of light attack builds. Do we know this is true? Do we have dummy parses of the optimum LA vs HA build? I am not saying you are wrong, but it sounds low to me. It was certainly much higher than that historically, but I do know that HA builds have been nerfed over time. That always sounds silly to me because ZOS is always suggesting they are trying to raise the floor without lowering the ceiling too much. Buffing HA builds would be an excellent way to do that.

The other part is you say they should do 80%, but really don't give any context as to why that is the case. Why not 75% or 90%, etc. The APM argument seems to be a reasonable justification to support the 50%. If a heavy attack is roughly two seconds, and you weave with them, that would suggest you are doing about 60 APM (every two seconds is one HA, on skill). A LA build is 120 APM, so doing double the DPS is not unreasonable in that context. Now certainly, that should not be the only controlling factor, but it should be in the discussion.

There are no PVE HA builds that I've seen that peak over 55k dps, I've seen many PVE LA builds that do over 100-110k dps. I have no dummy parses because none build for HA. If anyone can produce a pure PVE HA build that does 80k dps please posted it.

HA take 3 seconds if they took 2 seconds I think the problem would go away.

I quote Ksariyu,
"... the tradeoff for the slower attack is the risk of it not finishing and you taking a big hit. APM does not equal skill outright."

Yeah, people are doing more than 55k with HA builds. As suggested, scroll up. Also, are HAs a full three seconds? I know way back when, they were different for different weapon types and range from roughly 1.5-2.5, but I thought there was some attempt to standardize them. 3 sounds long, but again, I am not 100% sure on the length. The longer they are, the easier a HA rotation is to perform, and arguably, the less DPS is should do.

APMs may not equal skill, but they highly correlate to skill. The ability to maintain high APMs while respecting/playing mechanics is what separates the good from the great. The ability to perform high APMs in a vacuum is what separates the bad from the good for the most part.

I really don't object to your premise, which is that HA builds could probably use some love, but I think some of your assumptions are faulty.

That video is a hybrid build uses LA and HA.

3 seconds on lightening, not sure for all the other weapons although it feels like 3 seconds on my tanks with sword and board and 2 hander.

Using APM as your balance for builds excludes physically challenged players. I don't know of anyone who is asking for PVE HA builds to match every other build out there just for less imbalance. And APM is typically a PVP measure and I am strictly focused on PVE.

Many builds are more or less cookie cutter builds with a few adaptation here and there.

Anyone that still thinks that a PVE HA build can perform over 85K dps with only HA then please produce a parse made recently.

Sure, most people in a HA rotation will light attack from the back bar if they know what they are doing. But look at @MudcrabAttack 's parse. He did approx 92.5k DPS, and his back bar LAs were only 3.9K. Because his Back Bar stampede is keeping up his infused weapon damage glyph, that is all the LAs are doing. If he simply omitted any weapon attacks from his back bar completely, he is still north of 85k.

Also APMs are a perfectly valid metric for PVE. Why on earth wouldn't they be? I also don't see how anyone can argue that maintaining and controlling High APMs is not a skill on the part of the player. A HA rotation takes fewer APMs than a light attack rotation. And the more difficult the encounter, the more additional APMs are required in addition to just the parse. On a dummy, you can just do your rotation. On a HM Trial fight, you need to do a lot more. That is why skilled players see a much smaller difference between their dummy parses and their actual encounters than bad players. They are able to maintain a higher APM. AKA, they are more skilled.

"Many builds are more or less cookie cutter builds with a few adaptation here and there."

What does that have to do with anything? DPS comes down to math. People figure out the best rotation based on the numbers, and people of course attempt to replicate it. The reason that most people cant simply copy a Meta DPS build and get the same numbers as a youtuber, is that they simply dont have the same button pressing ability, skill, ability to maintain high APM, whatever the heck you want to call it.

MudcrabAttack · December 2021

sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

Heavy attack builds only doing 50%????

Nah more like 85%+ if you Dual Wield

This is a stamina build that's typically focused on direct damage, I made no change other than going with fewer spammables and using heavy attacks while on the front bar.

A DOT-focused heavy attack build should do way better dps. Normally I'd hit 109k with pure light attack weaving on this Stamblade.

If you want to do this with a bow build forget it, bow heavy attacks are absolutely horrible, they give you gray hair from making you wait too long. I haven't tried it with a fire staff, but it would probably be awful too

Another LA HA hybrid parse.

Please present a parse with zero LAs.

Or just don't do weapon attacks at all on the back bar like the last poster mentioned

Succuby · December 2021

In the same sets you can do 110 k dps on LA and only 90- on HA very big DPS difference !

For some HA sets you only can do less than 90 on HA but will not make even 100 on LA.

It is unbalanced - to low DPS output for HA and HA sets.

Need more DPS on it. That is all it is about.

LashanW · December 2021

Succuby wrote: »

In the same sets you can do 110 k dps on LA and only 90- on HA very big DPS difference !

For some HA sets you only can do less than 90 on HA but will not make even 100 on LA.

It is unbalanced - to low DPS output for HA and HA sets.

Need more DPS on it. That is all it is about.

That's just 18% dps difference there. How close do you want it to be?

That seems like a fine balance for me, considering HA builds have zero sustain issues while LA builds can make you go crazy because of sustain issues.

Succuby · December 2021

LashanW wrote: »

Succuby wrote: »

In the same sets you can do 110 k dps on LA and only 90- on HA very big DPS difference !

For some HA sets you only can do less than 90 on HA but will not make even 100 on LA.

It is unbalanced - to low DPS output for HA and HA sets.

Need more DPS on it. That is all it is about.

That's just 18% dps difference there. How close do you want it to be?

That seems like a fine balance for me, considering HA builds have zero sustain issues while LA builds can make you go crazy because of sustain issues.

It is not, it is even less with out LA to start with. With no LA it would be about 80k max, when LA build can do 117k, even with HA + LA - HA builds now do only 90k dps.

In LA build people now do the same HA damage and can do LA and make up to 110+ in same build.

I think 10 % difference is normal, but not more than that. And LA builds can not do more HA dps than HA builds to start with, becouse LA on it is not effective !

If LA do 110 k dps and 90 k on HA, than HA build have to do atleast 100 k dps.

Not only 80 with only HA and not 90 with HA + LA.

AshfieldLad · December 2021

I tanked vlom HM last night with a normal plar and a HA sorc as my 2 dds, we completed no problem. Fail to see how it locks anyone out. Yes you won’t get in a sweaty trial group, but the content can still be done if you find the right people.

Succuby · December 2021

AshfieldLad wrote: »

I tanked vlom HM last night with a normal plar and a HA sorc as my 2 dds, we completed no problem. Fail to see how it locks anyone out. Yes you won’t get in a sweaty trial group, but the content can still be done if you find the right people.

HA players want play trials too, we have not got good sets for that, la gameplay is to much buffed for no real reason.

Now people in LA sets do on HA damage rotation just the same damage like HA builds do !

It do not sound good for me as example.

LA sets are overbuffed or HA sets are underperforming.

Why players only can play LA + skill ? Why not HA + skill or Bash + skill ?

Only one game play style is hardly promoted.

Lets make most dps when it is all 4 with same number than ? (just joke) With small difference from if 2 of it do not exist in rotation. Now you can exlude HA in rotation at all, i do not like such gameplay. I want exclude LA or Bash- i can exclude bash but i can not exclude LA - why ?

Amottica · December 2021

I think this is by design. it seems Zenimax has purposely emphasized LAs over HAs.

A HA probably takes about a second to charge up and the GCD for a skill used afterward will be another second. That is assuming the player is not chaining HAs. The light attack followed by a skill takes just over a second room what I understand. So the APM is almost twice that of a HA build. More importantly, the use of a skill is almost twice as often and that should be a very significant factor in the LA build being far superior. Otherwise, we would just use basic attacks.

Succuby · December 2021

Amottica wrote: »

I think this is by design. it seems Zenimax has purposely emphasized LAs over HAs.

A HA probably takes about a second to charge up and the GCD for a skill used afterward will be another second. That is assuming the player is not chaining HAs. The light attack followed by a skill takes just over a second room what I understand. So the APM is almost twice that of a HA build. More importantly, the use of a skill is almost twice as often and that should be a very significant factor in the LA build being far superior. Otherwise, we would just use basic attacks.

I really do not like LA game play, but if LA builds can do the same damage on HA rotation can we get our LA rotation on HA builds near the same as LA rotation on LA build ?

It do not sounds good for me !

Add more DPS to undaunted infiltrator than, add LA dps to inphelible aether whyle its buff is useless with all this updates.

Why some sets are underperforming ?

Build crafting was killed, why stop on that, lets all sets be the same - with no difference what you wear.

Why only 15 best sets you can put on and be happy ?

Where is alternate to all this ?

So much sets but all useless. What the game is that ?

sonwon.1_ESO · December 2021

colossalvoids wrote: »

sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »

Succuby wrote: »

I think it is possible to make around 70k with only HA on atro, but i dislike that sets like inphelible aether is HA only set, undaunted infiltrator - ha set too.

But how much is possible to do makeing LA on it ? Small numbers. The same for HA it do not give good damage output. Relequin may be can give better output and it is LA set, that even on HA gives good numbers.

Inphelible aether may be need a little more love ?

https://youtu.be/DgAyU5Eyz-I

Plus to all this undaunted infiltrator is now prebaff set - it is not comfortable to activate it. For me is a little strange that in some Kinrass + relequin may be is possible to make more HA + LA dps than on HA + LA designed sets.

Aether is too weak in current reality It is good set but it need better numbers or its numbers add to LA too as example.

Another LA HA hybrid video.

Hmm, 70k dps on pure HA, I would like to see that video.

I'm not quite sure what you're willing to see exactly? A build that do a heavy between every skill he's casting no matter timings, class conditions and just wasting time between each skill right? Or just not casting anything at all with a mouse while recasting dots or using an execute for example? Because heavy attack builds absolutely do use light attacks when necessary (heavy is just used instead of a spammable, usually buffed by a degeneration skill), if that's not just people having no idea what they're doing or a simple 1-2 dots down and spam ha builds.

When you're asking for a good parse it's automatically includes knowledge and good execution, if you want pure ha with all the downtimes or a one bar build with for example pets to be competitive it's basically as asking why 1h sword build without any other weapon equipped underperforming, the answer is already here.

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

Heavy attack builds only doing 50%????

Nah more like 85%+ if you Dual Wield

This is a stamina build that's typically focused on direct damage, I made no change other than going with fewer spammables and using heavy attacks while on the front bar.

A DOT-focused heavy attack build should do way better dps. Normally I'd hit 109k with pure light attack weaving on this Stamblade.

If you want to do this with a bow build forget it, bow heavy attacks are absolutely horrible, they give you gray hair from making you wait too long. I haven't tried it with a fire staff, but it would probably be awful too

Another LA HA hybrid parse.

Please present a parse with zero LAs.

Or just don't do weapon attacks at all on the back bar like the last poster mentioned

Looks interesting, do you have a video to share?

Also, can you show us all of the parse, use the scrollbars?

Amottica · December 2021

Succuby wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

I think this is by design. it seems Zenimax has purposely emphasized LAs over HAs.

A HA probably takes about a second to charge up and the GCD for a skill used afterward will be another second. That is assuming the player is not chaining HAs. The light attack followed by a skill takes just over a second room what I understand. So the APM is almost twice that of a HA build. More importantly, the use of a skill is almost twice as often and that should be a very significant factor in the LA build being far superior. Otherwise, we would just use basic attacks.

I really do not like LA game play, but if LA builds can do the same damage on HA rotation can we get our LA rotation on HA builds near the same as LA rotation on LA build ?

It do not sounds good for me !

Add more DPS to undaunted infiltrator than, add LA dps to inphelible aether whyle its buff is useless with all this updates.

Why some sets are underperforming ?

Build crafting was killed, why stop on that, lets all sets be the same - with no difference what you wear.

Why only 15 best sets you can put on and be happy ?

The answer to your question should be no for the very reason I provided in the second paragraph of what you quoted.

The most important point I made is that actually skills are much more powerful than basic attacks and should be. Since a HA build uses skills about half as often as a LA build the HA build should be weaker.

As for underperforming sets, that is not relevent to this thread.

sonwon.1_ESO · December 2021

AshfieldLad wrote: »

I tanked vlom HM last night with a normal plar and a HA sorc as my 2 dds, we completed no problem. Fail to see how it locks anyone out. Yes you won’t get in a sweaty trial group, but the content can still be done if you find the right people.

I thought trials were part of the content.

colossalvoids · December 2021

sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »

AshfieldLad wrote: »

I tanked vlom HM last night with a normal plar and a HA sorc as my 2 dds, we completed no problem. Fail to see how it locks anyone out. Yes you won’t get in a sweaty trial group, but the content can still be done if you find the right people.

I thought trials were part of the content.

Pretty sure "sweaty" meant scorepushing ones or focused on maximum optimisation.

sonwon.1_ESO · December 2021

Perhaps there is a 3rd option,

Let skills be casted during a heavy attack, 1 per second like light attack builds do already without interrupting the heavy attack.

That sounds fair since light attack builds do that already.

Succuby · December 2021

Amottica wrote: »

Succuby wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

I think this is by design. it seems Zenimax has purposely emphasized LAs over HAs.

A HA probably takes about a second to charge up and the GCD for a skill used afterward will be another second. That is assuming the player is not chaining HAs. The light attack followed by a skill takes just over a second room what I understand. So the APM is almost twice that of a HA build. More importantly, the use of a skill is almost twice as often and that should be a very significant factor in the LA build being far superior. Otherwise, we would just use basic attacks.

I really do not like LA game play, but if LA builds can do the same damage on HA rotation can we get our LA rotation on HA builds near the same as LA rotation on LA build ?

It do not sounds good for me !

Add more DPS to undaunted infiltrator than, add LA dps to inphelible aether whyle its buff is useless with all this updates.

Why some sets are underperforming ?

Build crafting was killed, why stop on that, lets all sets be the same - with no difference what you wear.

Why only 15 best sets you can put on and be happy ?

The answer to your question should be no for the very reason I provided in the second paragraph of what you quoted.

The most important point I made is that actually skills are much more powerful than basic attacks and should be. Since a HA build uses skills about half as often as a LA build the HA build should be weaker.

As for underperforming sets, that is not relevent to this thread.

You do not answer on my question correctly. I play HA and LA, LA is overbuffed like the sets for it.

You will not do the same LA dps with HA sets, but now you can do the same DPS on HA rotation with overpowered LA sets. That is what i talking about.

LA sets must not overperform HA sets in HA rotation at least.

It even sounds crazy.

And you can not do good LA damage with it.

Skills and etc - ok i use all this, sets are to underperforming now.

No good alternate to use for people who do not want play like this.

I only can play bow bow with LA witk now ill intention all other builds make me and a lot of players sick. But game devs want all player base play LA as i see ?