PVE Heavy Attack Builds Produce half the DPS

sonwon.1_ESO

PVE heavy attack builds are broken when light attack builds produce double the damage per second. Heavy attacks do not have to produce the same amount of damage as a light attack weave build. However half the damage per second output for a heavy attack build is not balanced. I propose we bump this up so heavy attack builds are within 80% of light attack builds.

Here are two ideas (good?) that I had to make heavy attack builds viable in PVE.

A heavy attack takes 3 ticks, 1 per second, first 2 ticks are light attacks with a final third tick.

1. Instead of one tick per second reduce the ticks, maybe .5 - .75 seconds. Reduce the amount of resource regain to make up for the reduction in time between ticks. Adjust tick timing and resource gain as needed. I believe this change would also benefit tanks and healers.

OR

2. Keep the damage from the first 2 ticks unchanged and increase the damage of the final tick to make up for the damage per second loss when compared to light attack builds.

I think option 2 would be the easiest change to make to the ZOS' ESO code.

Bonus, light attack builds would still be meta however those physically challenged would be able to play the harder content.

Please post your constructive suggestion(s) on how this could be fixed without breaking light attacks and weaving.

°

perfiction

sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »

However half the damage per second output for a heavy attack build is not balanced.

Why not? HA builds require way less actions per minute (and skill), it's completely balanced that they deal less damage overall.

spartaxoxo

perfiction wrote: »

sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »

However half the damage per second output for a heavy attack build is not balanced.

Why not? HA builds require way less and actions per minute (and skill), it's completely balanced that they deal less damage overall.

Why would you cut out the sentences where he acknowledged that just to tell him information that's in the opening post? What a strawman. He literally says the opposite in his post.

He feels it should be 80% of the damage rather than half. That is not wanting it to be the same as light attack damage.

sonwon.1_ESO

perfiction wrote: »

sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »

However half the damage per second output for a heavy attack build is not balanced.

Why not? HA builds require way less and actions per minute (and skill), it's completely balanced that they deal less damage overall.

Exactly! People who are physically challenged are not capable of light attack weaving and are excluded from harder content due to lower damage per second. Let's fix that so everyone can enjoy ESO Online.

Ksariyu

perfiction wrote: »

sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »

However half the damage per second output for a heavy attack build is not balanced.

Why not? HA builds require way less and actions per minute (and skill), it's completely balanced that they deal less damage overall.

The only reason the lower APM is an issue here is because hardly anything in PvE will punish you for using a heavy at the wrong time. It's not a skill gap if that part gets fixed, as the tradeoff for the slower attack is the risk of it not finishing and you taking a big hit. APM does not equal skill outright.

LashanW

sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »

Bonus, light attack builds would still be meta however those physically challenged would be able to play the harder content.

Please post your constructive suggestion(s) on how this could be fixed without breaking light attacks and weaving.

When you say harder content, is it group content or solo content?

For group content there is a concern which is sustain. LA builds are meta and does more damage, yes. But they are almost always bottlenecked by sustain. To handle this, a lot of support roles use sets that help with sustain (things like worm, hollowfang/stone-talker, symphony etc.) Sometimes DDs with LA builds have to use parse food (they don't give any extra health, which makes things even riskier). They also have to chug expensive potions on cooldown to keep their magicka up.

HA builds have virtually no sustain issues. Meaning the group doesn't have to worry about sustain of DDs anymore. This might make HA builds on par with LA builds in group content which is not a good idea imo (due to differences of required skill level between the two playstyles).

But I maybe biased as I really don't like heavy attacks (due to how buggy they are especially with high ping)

ThePedge

LashanW wrote: »

sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »

Bonus, light attack builds would still be meta however those physically challenged would be able to play the harder content.

Please post your constructive suggestion(s) on how this could be fixed without breaking light attacks and weaving.

When you say harder content, is it group content or solo content?

For group content there is a concern which is sustain. LA builds are meta and does more damage, yes. But they are almost always bottlenecked by sustain. To handle this, a lot of support roles use sets that help with sustain (things like worm, hollowfang/stone-talker, symphony etc.) Sometimes DDs with LA builds have to use parse food (they don't give any extra health, which makes things even riskier). They also have to chug expensive potions on cooldown to keep their magicka up.

HA builds have virtually no sustain issues. Meaning the group doesn't have to worry about sustain of DDs anymore. This might make HA builds on par with LA builds in group content which is not a good idea imo (due to differences of required skill level between the two playstyles).

But I maybe biased as I really don't like heavy attacks (due to how buggy they are especially with high ping)

You use potions on cooldown anyway for their effects.
Usually Major Weapon/Spell Damage buff and Major Weapon/Spell Crit buff (Major Brutality & Major Savagery or Major Sorcery and Major Prophecy)
In the cases you don't need these you usually use Heroism potions, which are expensive, in order to get more ultimate, and more DPS.
Yes they give you sustain but that's not the reason you use them on cooldown.

sonwon.1_ESO

LashanW wrote: »

sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »

Bonus, light attack builds would still be meta however those physically challenged would be able to play the harder content.

Please post your constructive suggestion(s) on how this could be fixed without breaking light attacks and weaving.

When you say harder content, is it group content or solo content?

<snip>

DLC and trials

SeaGtGruff

It actually makes no sense that light attacks end up doing the most damage in a given amount of time. By any kind of logic, heavy attacks should do the most damage, medium attacks should do average damage, and light attacks should do the least damage.

The restoration of resources also makes no sense. Light atracks require the least effort, so they should restore resources. Heavy attacks require the most effort, so it's illogical that they should restore any resources.

But, hey, this is a fantasy game, so logic need not apply, I guess.

Succuby

PVE HA builds use part of HA and part of LA rotation.

Problem realy is, but not becouse only DPS, some times we have bug with HA that it do not start casting or do not stop casting. It make gameplay not comfortable.

I do not really care about DPS to much, but yes DPS is lesser than on LA for no real reason, but if difference would be about LA make 100k and HA+LA about 95k and only HA 90k - sounds good for me, it is becouse sets we use are little weaker than others. If we can do as example the same LA damage on this sets it would help more, as example if Inpheleble aether give its HA number not only to HA but to LA rotation part too.

As example Relequin gives more numbers, so our sets are weaker that it should be + prebuff problems with sets like Undaunted Infiltrator that make your rotation not comfortable on start.

Relequin:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DgAyU5Eyz-I

Aether:
https://youtu.be/JU8RQpVh5Ss

Aether is one of my favorite sets, but now it is little underperforming

I hope it will be a little buffed some day.

Merforum

sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »

PVE heavy attack builds are broken when light attack builds produce double the damage per second. Heavy attacks do not have to produce the same amount of damage as a light attack weave build. However half the damage per second output for a heavy attack build is not balanced. I propose we bump this up so heavy attack builds are within 80% of light attack builds.

Here are two ideas (good?) that I had to make heavy attack builds viable in PVE.

A heavy attack takes 3 ticks, 1 per second, first 2 ticks are light attacks with a final third tick.

1. Instead of one tick per second reduce the ticks, maybe .5 - .75 seconds. Reduce the amount of resource regain to make up for the reduction in time between ticks. Adjust tick timing and resource gain as needed. I believe this change would also benefit tanks and healers.

OR

2. Keep the damage from the first 2 ticks unchanged and increase the damage of the final tick to make up for the damage per second loss when compared to light attack builds.

I think option 2 would be the easiest change to make to the ZOS' ESO code.

Bonus, light attack builds would still be meta however those physically challenged would be able to play the harder content.

Please post your constructive suggestion(s) on how this could be fixed without breaking light attacks and weaving.

°

It is true that LA build/rotation being 2-4 times as much DPS as HA builds makes no sense. I like your suggestions.

Also a fix would be to eliminate LA animation cancelling from the game as it is a glitch and totally mind numbing/finger breaking when done correctly. And in place of that make LA, MA, and heavy do more damage, and I would say that each type of attack should restore resources.

They did a test a while back playing around with this type of thing but don't think they took it seriously enough and as expected got a huge backlash from people who crutch on LA AC exploit.

Succuby

If some thingth game play iscomfortable it is OK to me.

As example on archer LA rotation is not really to bad:
https://youtu.be/BKeEY4kBvdw

But i fill uncomfortable with it on other weapons - it works strange.

By the way companions do the same LA rotation.

Why is not there HA good loking high elf female companion ?

)

Or a robot. Robot HA companion )) I lose all hope it be nice looking succubus any way )))

Flame atronach HA rotation companion may be ))))) ?

LashanW

ThePedge wrote: »

You use potions on cooldown anyway for their effects.
Usually Major Weapon/Spell Damage buff and Major Weapon/Spell Crit buff (Major Brutality & Major Savagery or Major Sorcery and Major Prophecy)
In the cases you don't need these you usually use Heroism potions, which are expensive, in order to get more ultimate, and more DPS.
Yes they give you sustain but that's not the reason you use them on cooldown.

Yes I'm aware of other effects of spell/weapon power potions.

HA builds have more barspace (no spammable on front bar, so there is room for inner light) and in optimized group content you'd have a DK with igni weapons. So they have Major Weapon/Spell Damage buff and Major Weapon/Spell Crit buff covered.

A lot of classes that are popular for HA builds also have easy access to major sorcery (sorcs with crit surge, wardens with netch, DKs with molten armaments which is a core skill in their HA builds as it also increase HA damage). Necros I think have the short end of the stick here. I'm not familiar with nightblade and templar HA builds, never seen them.

As for heroism potions, they are such a rare use case thanks to their high cost. My groups didn't even use them for Gryphon heart and Tick-Tock Tormenter. We might use them for Godslayer tho. But I highly doubt people using HA builds are aiming for trifectas and score pushing.

mocap

If they buff lightning HA, they will probably nerf HA sets (IA, Noble Duelist, Undaunted whatevers, even MA stave).
Otherwise, HA build will be insta new meta. Though i don't mind xd

LashanW

Merforum wrote: »

It is true that LA build/rotation being 2-4 times as much DPS as HA builds makes no sense. I like your suggestions.

I'm not up-to-date on current HA builds. Do they really do half or less than that of LA builds? Any sources for such claims?

For example a magsorc LA build can do upto 116k dps on trial dummy. Are magsorc HA builds doing less than 58k in such a scenario now?

ForeverJenn

Merforum wrote: »

sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »

PVE heavy attack builds are broken when light attack builds produce double the damage per second. Heavy attacks do not have to produce the same amount of damage as a light attack weave build. However half the damage per second output for a heavy attack build is not balanced. I propose we bump this up so heavy attack builds are within 80% of light attack builds.

Here are two ideas (good?) that I had to make heavy attack builds viable in PVE.

A heavy attack takes 3 ticks, 1 per second, first 2 ticks are light attacks with a final third tick.

1. Instead of one tick per second reduce the ticks, maybe .5 - .75 seconds. Reduce the amount of resource regain to make up for the reduction in time between ticks. Adjust tick timing and resource gain as needed. I believe this change would also benefit tanks and healers.

OR

2. Keep the damage from the first 2 ticks unchanged and increase the damage of the final tick to make up for the damage per second loss when compared to light attack builds.

I think option 2 would be the easiest change to make to the ZOS' ESO code.

Bonus, light attack builds would still be meta however those physically challenged would be able to play the harder content.

Please post your constructive suggestion(s) on how this could be fixed without breaking light attacks and weaving.

°

Also a fix would be to eliminate LA animation cancelling from the game as it is a glitch and totally mind numbing/finger breaking when done correctly. And in place of that make LA, MA, and heavy do more damage, and I would say that each type of attack should restore resources.

They did a test a while back playing around with this type of thing but don't think they took it seriously enough and as expected got a huge backlash from people who crutch on LA AC exploit.

I understand you don't like LAing, but let's not spread false info. LA weaving isn't an exploit. There's a random tip suggesting it in the loading screen. Also, correctly weaving your LA is only about once every second. That's hardly finger breaking.

It is also naive to assume people weave as a crutch. Effective LA weaving does add a significant amount of dps but it is primarily done for upping numbers on people that can do more damage than your average casual. It primarily comes down to knowing a proper rotation and having sets that allow you to do that.

Light Attacks are 15 percent of my 100k dps parse.

Merforum

ForeverJenn wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »

PVE heavy attack builds are broken when light attack builds produce double the damage per second. Heavy attacks do not have to produce the same amount of damage as a light attack weave build. However half the damage per second output for a heavy attack build is not balanced. I propose we bump this up so heavy attack builds are within 80% of light attack builds.

Here are two ideas (good?) that I had to make heavy attack builds viable in PVE.

A heavy attack takes 3 ticks, 1 per second, first 2 ticks are light attacks with a final third tick.

1. Instead of one tick per second reduce the ticks, maybe .5 - .75 seconds. Reduce the amount of resource regain to make up for the reduction in time between ticks. Adjust tick timing and resource gain as needed. I believe this change would also benefit tanks and healers.

OR

2. Keep the damage from the first 2 ticks unchanged and increase the damage of the final tick to make up for the damage per second loss when compared to light attack builds.

I think option 2 would be the easiest change to make to the ZOS' ESO code.

Bonus, light attack builds would still be meta however those physically challenged would be able to play the harder content.

Please post your constructive suggestion(s) on how this could be fixed without breaking light attacks and weaving.

°

Also a fix would be to eliminate LA animation cancelling from the game as it is a glitch and totally mind numbing/finger breaking when done correctly. And in place of that make LA, MA, and heavy do more damage, and I would say that each type of attack should restore resources.

They did a test a while back playing around with this type of thing but don't think they took it seriously enough and as expected got a huge backlash from people who crutch on LA AC exploit.

I understand you don't like LAing, but let's not spread false info. LA weaving isn't an exploit. There's a random tip suggesting it in the loading screen. Also, correctly weaving your LA is only about once every second. That's hardly finger breaking.

It is also naive to assume people weave as a crutch. Effective LA weaving does add a significant amount of dps but it is primarily done for upping numbers on people that can do more damage than your average casual. It primarily comes down to knowing a proper rotation and having sets that allow you to do that.

Light Attacks are 15 percent of my 100k dps parse.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_exploit
Just because an exploit becomes accepted by a game developer, doesn't mean it isn't an exploit, doesn't mean that it is good for the game and doesn't mean they can't change their minds about allowing it.

BTW LA animation cancelling is what we are talking about (LA PLUS Skill in each second), NOT just doing some LAs in a rotation which is perfectly intended. The added benefit of LA AC is WAY more than just the 15-25% for just LA base damage you see in a parse readout. For instance, in a 10 second window you should only be able to do maybe 5 LA and 5 Skills or 3 LA and 7 Skills or 0 LA and 10 Skills (etc), however with LA AC you can ideally do 10 LA AND 10 Skills in the SAME 10 seconds. So you aren't ONLY gaining some LA damage, you are ALSO gaining a bunch of EXTRA skills and LAs in this rotation.

There are dozens of videos and many posts discussing going from 20-30K DPS to 40-50K just by doing 50% LA AC, then jumping to 70-80K by doing 75% and ONLY getting over 100K by doing LA AC over 90+%. So literally even just doing it better and better has massive impact. Please do not downplay how extremely powerful this tactic is.

BTW the random tip you all like to trot out just says to do LA and skill fast, it says NOTHING about animation canceling. ZOS should put out a training video or in game tutorial specifically TEACHING people how to do LA AC, if they believe this is a legit tactic that they want everyone to learn. Otherwise I can only go by what I heard Rich Lambert say on stream that they don't really like it and talk about fixing it all the time. They literally even tried doing something about it a while back. They obviously know it is bad but don't know how to deal with backlash if they finally fix it.

Succuby

About LA - no real animation canceling.

Skills have 1 second global calldown, you put bash/la/ha between it.That is all.

Nothing really bad with LA, we just have low alternative to play with out LA if some one wants.

I like casting abilitys like HA, or flamer - like burn it ALL ahahahaha game style

But game now do not give a lot of alternatives to LA.

As example good HA set that make HA from lightning stuff looks like flamer - animation from the last dunguan of block flamer is perfect and have values like:

Makes you HA looks like flamer, gives 1800 to your LA and HA and bonuses of:

Crit
5% dps on mobs
Crit
Perfected +crit

Can make a really big change and let people play more comfortable on ha builds.

Now we have not enough alternates - aether/relequin/noble dualist and etc ...

Or as example new flamer artifact weapon !!! . From leads.

Nezyr_Jezz

I guess some people just want to hold that button and spam i guess XD

Kiralyn2000

ThePedge wrote: »

You use potions on cooldown anyway for their effects.

How widespread is that, really? Does the normal player chug potions regularly, or is it just the "imma maximizing mah deeps!"/hardmode crew? Only vet level? Only trials?


(edit: to be honest, having gamed for decades with games where consumables are emergency supplies to only be used when Really Needed, the idea of chain-chugging potions on cooldown has always seemed bizarre to me.)

StevieKingslayer

Idk about you, but my heavy attack sorc holds her own against the LA spam builds, so Im not sure whether the issue is build related, or you're being afflicted by the new heavy attack bug to be perfectly honest.

Succuby

I play bash builds, HA builds and LA builds.

Unfortunatly i like LA only with bow, bash build has to much spam.

HA build i really love.

And did not find any 2 handed sword build i really like, but some people like their 2 handed builds. For me it is to strict - I want some thing not standart and strange with it

BXR_Lonestar

I have a heavy attack pet sorc build and it actually does a ton of damage. It may not be a 50k parse character, but the reduction in damage that it does is more than made up by the fact that I can basically solo almost anything in the game with him. With that said, the build does ~ 30-40K a tick under the right circumstances, but I do find it kind of crap that I have to run three dedicated sets to make HA even worthwhile (Noble duelist, infalliable ether, and Maelstrom lightning staff), and even then, the high damage ticks only happen under the right condition (close quarters combat to proc Noble Duelist, weapon/spell damage glyph procced, wall of elements active, enemy effected by Infal debuff, Spell Power potion active, critical hit, etc.).

IMO, it seems like you give up way too much (3 dedicated sets) total to make this build work, and even then, its only a "meh" build in terms of damage output. There are better builds for pure DPS for sure, but I definitely think they could take a look at adjusting HA builds to make them a bit more competitive with the current meta without having to rely on picture perfect combat conditions. Maybe take a look at adding an extra tick of damage for the lightning staff heavy attack so that you get 4 ticks in 3 seconds. Not enough to be super OP, but an adjustment that certainly increases damage output vs 3 light attacks under the same circumstances.

Varana

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

ThePedge wrote: »

You use potions on cooldown anyway for their effects.

How widespread is that, really? Does the normal player chug potions regularly, or is it just the "imma maximizing mah deeps!"/hardmode crew? Only vet level? Only trials?


(edit: to be honest, having gamed for decades with games where consumables are emergency supplies to only be used when Really Needed, the idea of chain-chugging potions on cooldown has always seemed bizarre to me.)

In vet trials, especially for bosses, other stuff depending on the trial.
In vet DLC dungeons often for bosses, but not for trash.
For everything else, usually not.

This thread was about achievable damage numbers, though, and for that potions are generally assumed.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

spartaxoxo wrote: »

perfiction wrote: »

sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »

However half the damage per second output for a heavy attack build is not balanced.

Why not? HA builds require way less and actions per minute (and skill), it's completely balanced that they deal less damage overall.

Why would you cut out the sentences where he acknowledged that just to tell him information that's in the opening post? What a strawman. He literally says the opposite in his post.

He feels it should be 80% of the damage rather than half. That is not wanting it to be the same as light attack damage.

Yeah, that is not a strawman argument. People love to use that term, but that is not what happened here. Seems like a reasonable disagreement about how much damage a light attack build should do compared to a heavy attack, with a justification given as to why. Not everything is a strawman...

To the OP, I am all for heavy attacks being viable. There are two numbers that seem to be out of left field. One the fact that heavy attack builds do 50% of the damage of light attack builds. Do we know this is true? Do we have dummy parses of the optimum LA vs HA build? I am not saying you are wrong, but it sounds low to me. It was certainly much higher than that historically, but I do know that HA builds have been nerfed over time. That always sounds silly to me because ZOS is always suggesting they are trying to raise the floor without lowering the ceiling too much. Buffing HA builds would be an excellent way to do that.

The other part is you say they should do 80%, but really don't give any context as to why that is the case. Why not 75% or 90%, etc. The APM argument seems to be a reasonable justification to support the 50%. If a heavy attack is roughly two seconds, and you weave with them, that would suggest you are doing about 60 APM (every two seconds is one HA, on skill). A LA build is 120 APM, so doing double the DPS is not unreasonable in that context. Now certainly, that should not be the only controlling factor, but it should be in the discussion.

MEBengalsFan2001

sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »

PVE heavy attack builds are broken when light attack builds produce double the damage per second. Heavy attacks do not have to produce the same amount of damage as a light attack weave build. However half the damage per second output for a heavy attack build is not balanced. I propose we bump this up so heavy attack builds are within 80% of light attack builds.

Here are two ideas (good?) that I had to make heavy attack builds viable in PVE.

A heavy attack takes 3 ticks, 1 per second, first 2 ticks are light attacks with a final third tick.

1. Instead of one tick per second reduce the ticks, maybe .5 - .75 seconds. Reduce the amount of resource regain to make up for the reduction in time between ticks. Adjust tick timing and resource gain as needed. I believe this change would also benefit tanks and healers.

OR

2. Keep the damage from the first 2 ticks unchanged and increase the damage of the final tick to make up for the damage per second loss when compared to light attack builds.

I think option 2 would be the easiest change to make to the ZOS' ESO code.

Bonus, light attack builds would still be meta however those physically challenged would be able to play the harder content.

Please post your constructive suggestion(s) on how this could be fixed without breaking light attacks and weaving.

°

IMO light attacks should be used for resource management and heavy should be used for damage. If I go grab a sledge hammer (heavy) and hit someone with it I'm sure that would hurt a lot more than say a foam hammer (light). Just saying that in logical sense Heavy > Light damage wise.

I believe the devs were trying to go down this path and I actually liked this idea and wish they would moved forward with it.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

ThePedge wrote: »

You use potions on cooldown anyway for their effects.

How widespread is that, really? Does the normal player chug potions regularly, or is it just the "imma maximizing mah deeps!"/hardmode crew? Only vet level? Only trials?


(edit: to be honest, having gamed for decades with games where consumables are emergency supplies to only be used when Really Needed, the idea of chain-chugging potions on cooldown has always seemed bizarre to me.)

I think in the context of maximizing damage, Potions on cooldown is standard practice for a very high percent of all veteran players (i.e. they are playing vet content). It is simply one more thing in your rotation that needs managed. Because potions are independent of global cooldowns, you are by definition gimping yourself not to run them because the work arounds for major sorcery/prophecy and major brutality/savagery either take sets or bar space.

If I am in serious combat in ESO, I am drinking a potion on cooldown. That goes for PVP, and Vet PVE. Only exception is normal 4 man content for farming or open world. For that, I use a NB or Sorc 9 times out of 10, and both allow me to get Major Sorc/Prophecy relatively easy (inner light and one skill, sap essence or crit surge). I still chug trash pots liberally for sustain. If you are playing as damage dealer and dont have your respective power, crit, and sustain buffs, you are doing yourself and your group a disservice. Spell/weapon power pots are the easiest way to get all three. If you put an ounce of thought into building wealth in this game, the cost is trivial. Do you need them for a random normal? No. Should you be running them in vet dungeons/trials/arenas, absolutely.

Tannus15

heavy attack damage needs a buff for sure.

I don't care what they do with the resource management side of things, but the current damage of heavy attacks is way too low.

The problem isn't just that the damage of the hit is low, it's that you're casting less abilities per second than a light attack build which is hitting them on GCD.
This is why the sustain return doesn't matter, less abilities means less resource drain.

I'm not a fan of heavy attack builds personally, i hate channelled abilities so the idea of channelling a heavy attack before each skill is just awful to me, but it should be a viable option for people who do like the play style.

sonwon.1_ESO

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

perfiction wrote: »

sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »

However half the damage per second output for a heavy attack build is not balanced.

Why not? HA builds require way less and actions per minute (and skill), it's completely balanced that they deal less damage overall.

Why would you cut out the sentences where he acknowledged that just to tell him information that's in the opening post? What a strawman. He literally says the opposite in his post.

He feels it should be 80% of the damage rather than half. That is not wanting it to be the same as light attack damage.

Yeah, that is not a strawman argument. People love to use that term, but that is not what happened here. Seems like a reasonable disagreement about how much damage a light attack build should do compared to a heavy attack, with a justification given as to why. Not everything is a strawman...

To the OP, I am all for heavy attacks being viable. There are two numbers that seem to be out of left field. One the fact that heavy attack builds do 50% of the damage of light attack builds. Do we know this is true? Do we have dummy parses of the optimum LA vs HA build? I am not saying you are wrong, but it sounds low to me. It was certainly much higher than that historically, but I do know that HA builds have been nerfed over time. That always sounds silly to me because ZOS is always suggesting they are trying to raise the floor without lowering the ceiling too much. Buffing HA builds would be an excellent way to do that.

The other part is you say they should do 80%, but really don't give any context as to why that is the case. Why not 75% or 90%, etc. The APM argument seems to be a reasonable justification to support the 50%. If a heavy attack is roughly two seconds, and you weave with them, that would suggest you are doing about 60 APM (every two seconds is one HA, on skill). A LA build is 120 APM, so doing double the DPS is not unreasonable in that context. Now certainly, that should not be the only controlling factor, but it should be in the discussion.

There are no PVE HA builds that I've seen that peak over 55k dps, I've seen many PVE LA builds that do over 100-110k dps. I have no dummy parses because none build for HA. If anyone can produce a pure PVE HA build that does 80k dps please posted it.

HA take 3 seconds if they took 2 seconds I think the problem would go away.

I quote Ksariyu,
"... the tradeoff for the slower attack is the risk of it not finishing and you taking a big hit. APM does not equal skill outright."

Tannus15

sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

perfiction wrote: »

sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »

However half the damage per second output for a heavy attack build is not balanced.

Why not? HA builds require way less and actions per minute (and skill), it's completely balanced that they deal less damage overall.

Why would you cut out the sentences where he acknowledged that just to tell him information that's in the opening post? What a strawman. He literally says the opposite in his post.

He feels it should be 80% of the damage rather than half. That is not wanting it to be the same as light attack damage.

Yeah, that is not a strawman argument. People love to use that term, but that is not what happened here. Seems like a reasonable disagreement about how much damage a light attack build should do compared to a heavy attack, with a justification given as to why. Not everything is a strawman...

To the OP, I am all for heavy attacks being viable. There are two numbers that seem to be out of left field. One the fact that heavy attack builds do 50% of the damage of light attack builds. Do we know this is true? Do we have dummy parses of the optimum LA vs HA build? I am not saying you are wrong, but it sounds low to me. It was certainly much higher than that historically, but I do know that HA builds have been nerfed over time. That always sounds silly to me because ZOS is always suggesting they are trying to raise the floor without lowering the ceiling too much. Buffing HA builds would be an excellent way to do that.

The other part is you say they should do 80%, but really don't give any context as to why that is the case. Why not 75% or 90%, etc. The APM argument seems to be a reasonable justification to support the 50%. If a heavy attack is roughly two seconds, and you weave with them, that would suggest you are doing about 60 APM (every two seconds is one HA, on skill). A LA build is 120 APM, so doing double the DPS is not unreasonable in that context. Now certainly, that should not be the only controlling factor, but it should be in the discussion.

There are no PVE HA builds that I've seen that peak over 55k dps, I've seen many PVE LA builds that do over 100-110k dps. I have no dummy parses because none build for HA. If anyone can produce a pure PVE HA build that does 80k dps please posted it.

HA take 3 seconds if they took 2 seconds I think the problem would go away.

I quote Ksariyu,
"... the tradeoff for the slower attack is the risk of it not finishing and you taking a big hit. APM does not equal skill outright."

scroll up, someone literally posted a video of an 88k ha build.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

perfiction wrote: »

sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »

However half the damage per second output for a heavy attack build is not balanced.

Why not? HA builds require way less and actions per minute (and skill), it's completely balanced that they deal less damage overall.

Why would you cut out the sentences where he acknowledged that just to tell him information that's in the opening post? What a strawman. He literally says the opposite in his post.

He feels it should be 80% of the damage rather than half. That is not wanting it to be the same as light attack damage.

Yeah, that is not a strawman argument. People love to use that term, but that is not what happened here. Seems like a reasonable disagreement about how much damage a light attack build should do compared to a heavy attack, with a justification given as to why. Not everything is a strawman...

To the OP, I am all for heavy attacks being viable. There are two numbers that seem to be out of left field. One the fact that heavy attack builds do 50% of the damage of light attack builds. Do we know this is true? Do we have dummy parses of the optimum LA vs HA build? I am not saying you are wrong, but it sounds low to me. It was certainly much higher than that historically, but I do know that HA builds have been nerfed over time. That always sounds silly to me because ZOS is always suggesting they are trying to raise the floor without lowering the ceiling too much. Buffing HA builds would be an excellent way to do that.

The other part is you say they should do 80%, but really don't give any context as to why that is the case. Why not 75% or 90%, etc. The APM argument seems to be a reasonable justification to support the 50%. If a heavy attack is roughly two seconds, and you weave with them, that would suggest you are doing about 60 APM (every two seconds is one HA, on skill). A LA build is 120 APM, so doing double the DPS is not unreasonable in that context. Now certainly, that should not be the only controlling factor, but it should be in the discussion.

There are no PVE HA builds that I've seen that peak over 55k dps, I've seen many PVE LA builds that do over 100-110k dps. I have no dummy parses because none build for HA. If anyone can produce a pure PVE HA build that does 80k dps please posted it.

HA take 3 seconds if they took 2 seconds I think the problem would go away.

I quote Ksariyu,
"... the tradeoff for the slower attack is the risk of it not finishing and you taking a big hit. APM does not equal skill outright."

Yeah, people are doing more than 55k with HA builds. As suggested, scroll up. Also, are HAs a full three seconds? I know way back when, they were different for different weapon types and range from roughly 1.5-2.5, but I thought there was some attempt to standardize them. 3 sounds long, but again, I am not 100% sure on the length. The longer they are, the easier a HA rotation is to perform, and arguably, the less DPS is should do.

APMs may not equal skill, but they highly correlate to skill. The ability to maintain high APMs while respecting/playing mechanics is what separates the good from the great. The ability to perform high APMs in a vacuum is what separates the bad from the good for the most part.

I really don't object to your premise, which is that HA builds could probably use some love, but I think some of your assumptions are faulty.