PVE Heavy Attack Builds Produce half the DPS

Brrrofski

sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »

LashanW wrote: »

sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »

The screen shots still fail to provide the list of all the abilities. The ESO logs fail to show any abilities. I've been asking for a parse with ALL of the abilities to be listed for days and nobody has provided it. Why is that?

Looks like you are not familiar with reading eso logs.

This link should have all the info you asked for,
https://www.esologs.com/reports/Gv3qWJHmzMyAftRQ#fight=last&source=1&type=damage-done&target=3

Thank you, that link works!

So I can see 93k dps is possible on a NB. So maybe the imbalance is with certain classes? Or maybe it is with weapon types? Or both?

Any meta player want to do some parses with different weapons and / or classes?

Not everyone wants to play a NB. I would like to narrow this down.

°

[snip] You want YOUR EXACT setup and playstyle to be th best damage in the game?

Why should you be competitive when your doing half the work?

Heavy attack rotations are VERY generous for the little effort they require.

[Edited for Rude/Insulting comments]

Psiion

Greetings,

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sonwon.1_ESO

Anyone who has the impression that I want my build to make the most dps is mistaken.

I originally wrote,

PVE heavy attack builds are broken when light attack builds produce double the damage per second.

With the additional information from this thread I now understand I was both correct and incorrect at the same time.

Before I continue I want to add heavy attack builds do not all need to perform the same. However a Nightblade heavy attack build with dual weapons is significantly out performing other weapon types and / or classes. This is my opinion based on the currently available data. The question I have is why and how can we bring more parity (I do not mean equal in this sense however within 80-90% should not harm anyone.) to other classes and weapon types?

Light attack weave builds are no longer part of this discussion since we have a Nightblade heavy attack build performing within acceptable parameters of LA weave builds. My opinion again.

I would like more information to better understand why the Nightblade welding dual weapons appears to outperform the other classes / weapon types. I am not an expert of all weapon types or classes so I will ask the community to help.

Please post any pure heavy attack parses that you have that are not a Nightblade (NB) welding dual weapons, other weapons on a NB are of course okay.

°

LashanW

sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »

I would like more information to better understand why the Nightblade welding dual weapons appears to outperform the other classes / weapon types. I am not an expert of all weapon types or classes so I will ask the community to help.

Ok seems like you actually want to learn something [snip]. That's good. Combat in ESO is very complex and I feel no envy for people at ZoS who are responsible for combat balance. You can't get a good grasp of all aspects of combat just by looking at trial dummy parses.

Crit is king when it comes to DPS in this game. Dual wield daggers gives you the most crit chance out of all weapons and it's more impactful than the bonuses of other weapon types in a "sit still and parse" scenario. This is why even LA weaving magicka builds (the ones that do 110k+ dps) use dual wield daggers. Other weapons shine more in different scenarios. Two handed weapons when fighting large groups of mobs as a stamina DD (especially with master's 2 hander), fire staves for high mobility fights with multiple ranged targets etc as a magicka DD.

Most impactful weapon type therefore depends on the actual encounter. (For example I'm a magsorc main and I use fire staves for 1st and 3rd bosses in Sunspire while I dual wield daggers for 2nd boss.)

Then there's the different timings for HA across different weapon types (pls correct me if I'm wrong). Dual wield heavy attacks are faster than lightning staff heavy attacks for example, this gives you more time to cast skills. And skills generally do more damage than LAs/HAs.

There's also the case where damage from LA/HA are higher on mag builds due to usage of maelstrom destruction staves. So a mag build dropping LA/HA generally causes a bigger dps loss compared to stam builds and stam builds generally have a bit higher damage from their skills. As a result, mag HA builds may suffer a bigger dps loss than a stam HA build.

Impact of classes for HA builds is a whole different subject and I'll try to explain that later.

[edited for rude comment]

Oreyn_Bearclaw

sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »

LashanW wrote: »

sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »

The screen shots still fail to provide the list of all the abilities. The ESO logs fail to show any abilities. I've been asking for a parse with ALL of the abilities to be listed for days and nobody has provided it. Why is that?

Looks like you are not familiar with reading eso logs.

This link should have all the info you asked for,
https://www.esologs.com/reports/Gv3qWJHmzMyAftRQ#fight=last&source=1&type=damage-done&target=3

Thank you, that link works!

So I can see 93k dps is possible on a NB. So maybe the imbalance is with certain classes? Or maybe it is with weapon types? Or both?

Any meta player want to do some parses with different weapons and / or classes?

Not everyone wants to play a NB. I would like to narrow this down.

°

This isnt about class. This is about how you actually perform damage rotations. You should simply accept your premise is flawed. And rather than ask for an absurd amount of detail about a parse, you should present your next topic as, "How do I improve MY parse." I assure you, the same people that are lining up to point out that your premise is flawed will be the same people lining up to help you improve your parse.

Class doesnt matter (they will all be withing a few K of each other for this type of rotation), and for the most part, gear doesnt really matter (sure some stuff is better than others, just be sure it passes the smell test). If you arent breaking 60k on a trial dummy, none of that stuff matters. Your rotation is fundamentally flawed at the most basic level. Most of us would love to help you sort it out, but you have given us absolutely nothing to go on.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

There is nothing short of a high leaderboard that you cant accomplish without AC. It would just be nice if people didn't want to destroy skill based endgame for people that actually like the system.

That's clearly not the case as there isn't a lot of them in endgame content.

Nobody is proposing to destroy end game.

Why is it when anybody proposes a change to this game people act like every change they don't like will be the end of the world as they know it? Heavy attack builds doing 90k and LA builds doing 110k somehow results in the total destruction of superior builds for leaderboard content.

I remember when someone made a suggestion that was more or less the stickerbook, people argued that every raid group would disband and dungeons and trials would be destoryed.

It's kind of crazy how every single change in this game can somehow destory the entire game

My issue is that they are proposing changes based on misinformation and bad assumptions. The title of this thread is a blatant lie!

No weapon attacks or only heavy attacks are perfectly viable. Its not done often because most people actually try to do LA rotations because they enjoy it or they are under the false assumption its necessary. But you could absolutely clear all content without light or heavy attacks, certainly with only HAs. The DPS is there.

Heavy attack builds doing 90k and LAs doing 110k is really not far from where we are at now. Almost nobody is pulling 110k+. I know it can be done, but almost nobody is doing it. Mid to high 80s with a HA build, just isn't that hard to do from a player skill standpoint. Pulling 85k on a HA build is night and day easier than pulling 105k on a light attack build.

You will never hear me say that HAs shouldn't be viable. In fact, I have argued the opposite MANY times on this forum. I think it is an excellent way to raise the floor, something they claim to be trying to do. I am not opposed to a small buff to them, but if the floor is raised above the ceiling, the house has collapsed.

Why I get so worked up is the false comparisons being made. We have mediocre DPS comparing their HA parses to the best of the best cherry picked parses on YouTube. That overstates the actual gap between the two types of rotations. If you use that data as a justification to buff HA builds, we will by definition over buff them.

I do believe that when HA rotations were actually better than LA rotations (we have been there in the past), that end game was pretty dull. I don't think it would collapse the game. I am not naïve. I know that vet trials are a small part of the community, but I do think it would have a detrimental impact on competitive end game, because it seemed to the last time.

I realize that OP is not suggesting raising HAs above LAs. But if you make changes based on blatantly false assumptions then, that's what happens. He wants 80%, we are pretty much there right now. The title says its currently half (50%), which is just nonsense.

Your assumption that the title is a lie is false and I would ask that you keep the discourse respectful. My perceptions are based on in game experiences compared to meta LA builds. Now I admit I have not played every class so it is possible that there are builds out there that do more damage than half. I have yet to see a video or screenshots of a pure heavy attack build showing all of the abilities doing as much damage as you claim a HA build can do. I've asked several times so I will ask again, please provide such information.

Assuming such a build is out there then that would leave a 29% gap between a Stamblade LA build (111k) and HA build (86k). 29% is a sizeable difference. It is likely that HA builds between classes are severely unbalanced and less so for LA builds? I would add that not everyone wants to play a Stamblade.

Also not every player is capable of playing a LA weave build due to physical constraints. By making some slight tweaks we can have a game that will allow a larger share of players to participate in high end game content like DLC HM and trials (hard mode included). I believe this would be a win for all players!

°

This is my whole point. You are comparing what you are capable of with what the best of the best are capable of and drawing incorrect conclusions about how big the gap actually is. I don't dispute there is a gap. I dont dispute that there might be a meaningful way to close the gap a bit.

I really don't mean to be disrespectful, but are YOU capable of pulling 110K on a light attack build? No I am not asking for a parse, and not trying to be insulting, but it is relevant to the discussion. If you arent (and that's okay, most people arent), you cant compare your HA parse to LA parse you found on YouTube. It is wildly overstating the gap. Regardless of the types of attacks are used, there is a skill set to parsing. If you want to actually measure the gap that exists, someone of the same skill needs to be doing both tests.

Someone that is capable of pulling 110k on a LA Build is going to be able to pull north of 85-90K on a HA build. That is right in line with the 80% you are asking for. You percentages are also a little funny. I believe you said you wanted 80% of the damage. 80% of 110 is 88.

You simply cant take a player of skill level 5/10, look at their HA parse, then take a player with skill level 10/10, look at their LA parse, and say, the gap between the two playstyles is X. It's not a fair comparison. If you want some data, I see two good options.

One look at @MudcrabAttack 's recent post. It really shows what can be done with various levels of HAs by a skilled player. His baseline is roughly 111k with a LA weave. With 3 per rotation, he is at 105K, with roughly 8k of LAs. That is net of 97k. 97/111 is 87% of the DPS.

Two: Look at your own parses. Give your best effort with a LA build, and give your best effort with a HA build, and look at the difference. I would be beyond shocked if you saw a 50% difference. It is simply bad science to compare your HA parse to Mudcrabs LA parse.

*Also, you keep asking about DKs. Been a while since I parsed on a DK, but they probably do better with a HA build than a NB. NBs are all about insta cast spammables, which play to LAs. DKs are all about DOTs, which play better to HAs. Now a DKs ceiling might not be as high as a NB's, but then you are getting into class balance more than LA/HA balance.

If we make it so an average player can pull 90k with a HA build, think about what someone like Mudcrab would be able to do with it.

LashanW wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

And just to give some context, here is a parse I did about 8 months ago. Over 70k. There are no light OR heavy attacks. I even did my best to not swap cancel, so there is nothing that can be called animation canceling. That would be the world you are describing. God was it boring and trivial to accomplish. If this became the norm, people would leave this game by the masses.

How did you get ultimate for storm atronach without light or heavy attacks? I tried the same thing recently and my dps was 64k. I had zero ultimate generation so I could only cast my atro at the very beginning.

I am have to eat my words slightly on that. It was 9 months ago. If memory serves, I did a parse, realized I didnt build any ult. So on the next rotation, about every 10-15 seconds, instead of hard casting frags, I charged what is informally called a medium attack. Game would register as a HA, but they hit like a we paper towel.

The reason I did that was so I could charge for a the full duration of a global cooldown, essentially treat it like a 1 second cast, and thus not actually weave or AC anything. The damage was obviously less then 1k total as it didnt show up on that screen shot. I don't have the original parse saved, but if memory serves it was like 300-400 DPS. You would of course be better off weaving in a LA or HA once per rotation, but the purpose of that parse was in the context of what AC/Weaving does to your parse, not a LA/HA discussion. So yes, the game does make you do some sort of weapon attack if you want to use ultimates.

I was actually using ESO logs. I have zero desire to pull 110K from a light attack weave build nor the time to train for that (Take that to mean I can't if you want.).

Again, can anyone show a pure heavy attack parse showing all of the abilities? I am skeptical since none have been provided, although the MudcrabAttack's parse was close just missing the bottom half of the abilities.

I am not comparing skill levels. I am comparing light attack builds to heavy attack builds.

MudcrabAttack's light attack parse does 29% more dps when compared to his HA parse. Same player, same skill level, same class (29% of 86k is 25k, 25k plus 86k equals 111k).

Again, not every player is capable of playing a light attack weave build due to physical constraints. By making some slight tweaks we can have a game that will allow a larger share of players to participate in high end game content like DLC hard mode and trials (hard mode included). I believe this would be a win for all players!

I would hope we could agree that some small tweaks to heavy attacks would not break light attack weave builds. And would continue to keep light attack weave builds meta.

*Also, I never asked about a DKs?

°

And now you are just getting into tricky math to try to exaggerate the gap. Your title said "heavy attacks do half the DPS", half is 50%. You then say in your opening paragraph you want them to do 80%. I presume that 50% is because you are simply taking a meta parse (call it 110K), looking at your parse (guessing around 55K). 55/110k is 1/2, half, 50%, whatever you want to call it. But now instead of saying what percent of the lesser parse does compare to the greater parse, you want to inflate the number. In this example, 110-55=55. 55/55=1.0 Therefore "Light attacks do 100% more damage than Heavy attacks." Both of these statement of course say the same thing. Heavy attacks doing half the damage is the same as LAs doing 100% more damage.

But here, you start with the former, then switch to the latter. With the numbers of 111 and 86k respectively, you can also say that HA do 77.5% of the damage, which would be consistent with your title. And right inline with your OP that says you want them do be able to do 80% of the damage. Deliberately misleading if you ask me.

spartaxoxo

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

There is nothing short of a high leaderboard that you cant accomplish without AC. It would just be nice if people didn't want to destroy skill based endgame for people that actually like the system.

That's clearly not the case as there isn't a lot of them in endgame content.

Nobody is proposing to destroy end game.

Why is it when anybody proposes a change to this game people act like every change they don't like will be the end of the world as they know it? Heavy attack builds doing 90k and LA builds doing 110k somehow results in the total destruction of superior builds for leaderboard content.

I remember when someone made a suggestion that was more or less the stickerbook, people argued that every raid group would disband and dungeons and trials would be destoryed.

It's kind of crazy how every single change in this game can somehow destory the entire game

My issue is that they are proposing changes based on misinformation and bad assumptions. The title of this thread is a blatant lie!

No weapon attacks or only heavy attacks are perfectly viable. Its not done often because most people actually try to do LA rotations because they enjoy it or they are under the false assumption its necessary. But you could absolutely clear all content without light or heavy attacks, certainly with only HAs. The DPS is there.

Heavy attack builds doing 90k and LAs doing 110k is really not far from where we are at now. Almost nobody is pulling 110k+. I know it can be done, but almost nobody is doing it. Mid to high 80s with a HA build, just isn't that hard to do from a player skill standpoint. Pulling 85k on a HA build is night and day easier than pulling 105k on a light attack build.

You will never hear me say that HAs shouldn't be viable. In fact, I have argued the opposite MANY times on this forum. I think it is an excellent way to raise the floor, something they claim to be trying to do. I am not opposed to a small buff to them, but if the floor is raised above the ceiling, the house has collapsed.

Why I get so worked up is the false comparisons being made. We have mediocre DPS comparing their HA parses to the best of the best cherry picked parses on YouTube. That overstates the actual gap between the two types of rotations. If you use that data as a justification to buff HA builds, we will by definition over buff them.

I do believe that when HA rotations were actually better than LA rotations (we have been there in the past), that end game was pretty dull. I don't think it would collapse the game. I am not naïve. I know that vet trials are a small part of the community, but I do think it would have a detrimental impact on competitive end game, because it seemed to the last time.

I realize that OP is not suggesting raising HAs above LAs. But if you make changes based on blatantly false assumptions then, that's what happens. He wants 80%, we are pretty much there right now. The title says its currently half (50%), which is just nonsense.

Your assumption that the title is a lie is false and I would ask that you keep the discourse respectful. My perceptions are based on in game experiences compared to meta LA builds. Now I admit I have not played every class so it is possible that there are builds out there that do more damage than half. I have yet to see a video or screenshots of a pure heavy attack build showing all of the abilities doing as much damage as you claim a HA build can do. I've asked several times so I will ask again, please provide such information.

Assuming such a build is out there then that would leave a 29% gap between a Stamblade LA build (111k) and HA build (86k). 29% is a sizeable difference. It is likely that HA builds between classes are severely unbalanced and less so for LA builds? I would add that not everyone wants to play a Stamblade.

Also not every player is capable of playing a LA weave build due to physical constraints. By making some slight tweaks we can have a game that will allow a larger share of players to participate in high end game content like DLC HM and trials (hard mode included). I believe this would be a win for all players!

°

This is my whole point. You are comparing what you are capable of with what the best of the best are capable of and drawing incorrect conclusions about how big the gap actually is. I don't dispute there is a gap. I dont dispute that there might be a meaningful way to close the gap a bit.

I really don't mean to be disrespectful, but are YOU capable of pulling 110K on a light attack build? No I am not asking for a parse, and not trying to be insulting, but it is relevant to the discussion. If you arent (and that's okay, most people arent), you cant compare your HA parse to LA parse you found on YouTube. It is wildly overstating the gap. Regardless of the types of attacks are used, there is a skill set to parsing. If you want to actually measure the gap that exists, someone of the same skill needs to be doing both tests.

Someone that is capable of pulling 110k on a LA Build is going to be able to pull north of 85-90K on a HA build. That is right in line with the 80% you are asking for. You percentages are also a little funny. I believe you said you wanted 80% of the damage. 80% of 110 is 88.

You simply cant take a player of skill level 5/10, look at their HA parse, then take a player with skill level 10/10, look at their LA parse, and say, the gap between the two playstyles is X. It's not a fair comparison. If you want some data, I see two good options.

One look at @MudcrabAttack 's recent post. It really shows what can be done with various levels of HAs by a skilled player. His baseline is roughly 111k with a LA weave. With 3 per rotation, he is at 105K, with roughly 8k of LAs. That is net of 97k. 97/111 is 87% of the DPS.

Two: Look at your own parses. Give your best effort with a LA build, and give your best effort with a HA build, and look at the difference. I would be beyond shocked if you saw a 50% difference. It is simply bad science to compare your HA parse to Mudcrabs LA parse.

*Also, you keep asking about DKs. Been a while since I parsed on a DK, but they probably do better with a HA build than a NB. NBs are all about insta cast spammables, which play to LAs. DKs are all about DOTs, which play better to HAs. Now a DKs ceiling might not be as high as a NB's, but then you are getting into class balance more than LA/HA balance.

If we make it so an average player can pull 90k with a HA build, think about what someone like Mudcrab would be able to do with it.

LashanW wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

And just to give some context, here is a parse I did about 8 months ago. Over 70k. There are no light OR heavy attacks. I even did my best to not swap cancel, so there is nothing that can be called animation canceling. That would be the world you are describing. God was it boring and trivial to accomplish. If this became the norm, people would leave this game by the masses.

How did you get ultimate for storm atronach without light or heavy attacks? I tried the same thing recently and my dps was 64k. I had zero ultimate generation so I could only cast my atro at the very beginning.

I am have to eat my words slightly on that. It was 9 months ago. If memory serves, I did a parse, realized I didnt build any ult. So on the next rotation, about every 10-15 seconds, instead of hard casting frags, I charged what is informally called a medium attack. Game would register as a HA, but they hit like a we paper towel.

The reason I did that was so I could charge for a the full duration of a global cooldown, essentially treat it like a 1 second cast, and thus not actually weave or AC anything. The damage was obviously less then 1k total as it didnt show up on that screen shot. I don't have the original parse saved, but if memory serves it was like 300-400 DPS. You would of course be better off weaving in a LA or HA once per rotation, but the purpose of that parse was in the context of what AC/Weaving does to your parse, not a LA/HA discussion. So yes, the game does make you do some sort of weapon attack if you want to use ultimates.

I was actually using ESO logs. I have zero desire to pull 110K from a light attack weave build nor the time to train for that (Take that to mean I can't if you want.).

Again, can anyone show a pure heavy attack parse showing all of the abilities? I am skeptical since none have been provided, although the MudcrabAttack's parse was close just missing the bottom half of the abilities.

I am not comparing skill levels. I am comparing light attack builds to heavy attack builds.

MudcrabAttack's light attack parse does 29% more dps when compared to his HA parse. Same player, same skill level, same class (29% of 86k is 25k, 25k plus 86k equals 111k).

Again, not every player is capable of playing a light attack weave build due to physical constraints. By making some slight tweaks we can have a game that will allow a larger share of players to participate in high end game content like DLC hard mode and trials (hard mode included). I believe this would be a win for all players!

I would hope we could agree that some small tweaks to heavy attacks would not break light attack weave builds. And would continue to keep light attack weave builds meta.

*Also, I never asked about a DKs?

°

And now you are just getting into tricky math to try to exaggerate the gap. Your title said "heavy attacks do half the DPS", half is 50%. You then say in your opening paragraph you want them to do 80%. I presume that 50% is because you are simply taking a meta parse (call it 110K), looking at your parse (guessing around 55K). 55/110k is 1/2, half, 50%, whatever you want to call it. But now instead of saying what percent of the lesser parse does compare to the greater parse, you want to inflate the number. In this example, 110-55=55. 55/55=1.0 Therefore "Light attacks do 100% more damage than Heavy attacks." Both of these statement of course say the same thing. Heavy attacks doing half the damage is the same as LAs doing 100% more damage.

But here, you start with the former, then switch to the latter. With the numbers of 111 and 86k respectively, you can also say that HA do 77.5% of the damage, which would be consistent with your title. And right inline with your OP that says you want them do be able to do 80% of the damage. Deliberately misleading if you ask me.

77% is closer to 75% than 80%. So I very much doubt that's what he's doing. 29% less is closer to 30% rather than 20% which is a greater gap than he is advocating for, and significantly so.

sonwon.1_ESO

LashanW wrote: »

sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »

I would like more information to better understand why the Nightblade welding dual weapons appears to outperform the other classes / weapon types. I am not an expert of all weapon types or classes so I will ask the community to help.

Ok seems like you actually want to learn something [snip]. That's good. Combat in ESO is very complex and I feel no envy for people at ZoS who are responsible for combat balance. You can't get a good grasp of all aspects of combat just by looking at trial dummy parses.

Crit is king when it comes to DPS in this game. Dual wield daggers gives you the most crit chance out of all weapons and it's more impactful than the bonuses of other weapon types in a "sit still and parse" scenario. This is why even LA weaving magicka builds (the ones that do 110k+ dps) use dual wield daggers. Other weapons shine more in different scenarios. Two handed weapons when fighting large groups of mobs as a stamina DD (especially with master's 2 hander), fire staves for high mobility fights with multiple ranged targets etc as a magicka DD.

Most impactful weapon type therefore depends on the actual encounter. (For example I'm a magsorc main and I use fire staves for 1st and 3rd bosses in Sunspire while I dual wield daggers for 2nd boss.)

Then there's the different timings for HA across different weapon types (pls correct me if I'm wrong). Dual wield heavy attacks are faster than lightning staff heavy attacks for example, this gives you more time to cast skills. And skills generally do more damage than LAs/HAs.

There's also the case where damage from LA/HA are higher on mag builds due to usage of maelstrom destruction staves. So a mag build dropping LA/HA generally causes a bigger dps loss compared to stam builds and stam builds generally have a bit higher damage from their skills. As a result, mag HA builds may suffer a bigger dps loss than a stam HA build.

Impact of classes for HA builds is a whole different subject and I'll try to explain that later.

[edited for rude comment]

Thank you this was very useful. For one thing I did not know different weapons have different heavy attack timings.

I will look forward to your next post.

°

Fizzyapple

I read your post about HA builds and the comments from the people who pounced on you. We all know it 's a thing so don't feel bad about bringing it up. Zos is even changing all those sets this coming patch for that reason.

Deter1UK

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

(edit: to be honest, having gamed for decades with games where consumables are emergency supplies to only be used when Really Needed, the idea of chain-chugging potions on cooldown has always seemed bizarre to me.)

Yep, there are some good vomiting animations in the game.

They should introduce an automatic 10 sec upchuck sequence every third potion.

That should introduce a credible amount of distress to Trials and Vet Metas.

Fizzyapple

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Ascarl wrote: »

perfiction wrote: »

sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »

However half the damage per second output for a heavy attack build is not balanced.

Sure, you can play rotations statically, but they are always going to pull less DPS on a dummy, and that gets compounded in an actual fight with movement. One of the biggest issues we have is that people don't compare their parses to the average joe. They compare their parses to the cherry picked parse from an insanely good player. That 110k parse you see on youtube might have taken them 50 tries just with that setup. Most the people complaining their HA parse doesnt break 50k probably havent killed a Trial Dummy 50 times total. People are comparing Shiny Apples to Rotten Oranges.

You make it sound like a dynamic rotation requires some super special skill only a select few have lol.. My 110k parses are based on a very dynamic rotation, especially when I'm snacking and is usually the best out of three this patch.. it goes like 108 109 110 and that's it. yay.. Parsing is the worst I hate it and when you have been doing it long enough to get to 110 and beyond you will too. A couple of top ranking on esologs over a few patches is all you need to realize its a waste of time. People will like you less for it than more. I've stopped even mentioning it like ever in chat even when asked I change the subject. This game can be toxic and for no reason.

So don't argue with one another its not important.. like at all.

Just have fun.

Succuby

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/604553/truth-about-ha-sets-and-ha-players-unreasonable-and-strange-looking-nerf/p1?new=1

Meta sets now even ON HA have more damage than HA sets on HA.

On LA sets are useless.

It is more good solution to delete sets like Undaunted Infiltrator and the same and return ALL gold mats it was used to make - than put it in way like it looks like now. Such bad changes was made to it.

Or remake it to some thing playable.

Now sets are so useless that do on HA less than 2 buff sets !!! (Buff sets buff the party same time + more dps).

And if compare to 2 META sets or good proc sets - HA sets now always is worst choise.

Yiko

spartaxoxo wrote: »

77% is closer to 75% than 80%. So I very much doubt that's what he's doing. 29% less is closer to 30% rather than 20% which is a greater gap than he is advocating for, and significantly so.

OP advocated for HA builds to do 80% of the damage of LA builds. This is where the 20% gap comes from. 20% LESS damage than LA builds. You cannot interchangeably use a gap signifying LESS damage with a gap signifying MORE damage. 100/80 = 25% more. Those are the OPs same numbers, and that is signifying that LAs are doing 25% more damage than HAs, as proposed by OP (in a different format/terms). You're taking 111 LA/86 HA to get 29% and rounding it up to 30% for LA builds doing that much MORE damage than HA builds and immediately comparing it to the 20% LESS damage gap proposed by OP as if they're categorically the same. They're not. You're consistently misunderstanding things at a fundamental level. You would compare the 29% more LA damage to the 25% more LA damage.

86/111 would be 77.477%, putting that HA build at 22.523% less damage than a top tier LA parse. This is just one guy on one build giving one parse. It's not some sacrosanct number to point at and be like, "THERE IS A SIGNIFICANT GAP BETWEEN WHAT IS ACHIEVABLE IN REALITY AND WHAT OP PROPOSED." Besides, in this specific example, is an additional 2.523 in less % damage truly a greater gap by a degree of "significantly so?" I also don't understand why you rounded 77.477% down saying that it's closer to 75% than 80% when you're basically only rounding down by 0.023%. What kind of point are you trying to make? On top of that, that 86 was rounded down from 86.149, and the 111 was rounded up from 110.911. When you calculate 86.149/110.911, you get 77.674%, so you were taking a number that was rounded down and dividing it by a number that was rounded up.. and rounding the result of that down to 75% to try to make some kind of point, when the actual figures would have you rounding 77.674% up to 80%.

Next, the very same user that provided the previous parse also included another one for ~93k dps. We can be generous and use the 93k rounded down and 111k rounded up to still get 83.78% from a build featuring zero light attacks. That's a gap of 16.22% less HA damage than LA damage. That's WELL within the 20% less damage parameter that OP proposed.That is to say that what the OP was asking for already existed in the game.

Also your posts about the strawman that wasn't actually a strawman, the various gun examples w/ game lobbies + headshot damage, the example of M&Ms, and saying that people have been arguing in bad faith were pretty much nonsense.

Despite all of the made-up and misrepresented numbers, it seems like OP has acknowledged that these builds exist, but somehow the goalposts have shifted once again as now the builds that can achieve high non-LA parses are seemingly limited to Nightblades.

sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »

a Nightblade heavy attack build with dual weapons is significantly out performing other weapon types and / or classes. This is my opinion based on the currently available data. The question I have is why and how can we bring more parity (I do not mean equal in this sense however within 80-90% should not harm anyone.) to other classes and weapon types?

Light attack weave builds are no longer part of this discussion since we have a Nightblade heavy attack build performing within acceptable parameters of LA weave builds. My opinion again.

I would like more information to better understand why the Nightblade welding dual weapons appears to outperform the other classes / weapon types. I am not an expert of all weapon types or classes so I will ask the community to help.

I'm tempted to make a joke about Nightblades welding their dual weapons into a singular mega-weapon to do more damage.
Anyways, OP sees ONE example and then makes a sweeping generalization about NBs and DW "significantly" outperforming other weapon types and classes for HA builds. Following that, he takes the false assumption that other classes or weapon types can't compete and pushes that narrative forward as to why HA builds need buffs.

Why is it than more often than not it seems to be the case that the people arguing for buffs to a playstyle that features holding down Left Mouse button are demonstrably uninformed yet so heavily opinionated?

Kahnak

Merforum wrote: »

ForeverJenn wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »

PVE heavy attack builds are broken when light attack builds produce double the damage per second. Heavy attacks do not have to produce the same amount of damage as a light attack weave build. However half the damage per second output for a heavy attack build is not balanced. I propose we bump this up so heavy attack builds are within 80% of light attack builds.

Here are two ideas (good?) that I had to make heavy attack builds viable in PVE.

A heavy attack takes 3 ticks, 1 per second, first 2 ticks are light attacks with a final third tick.

1. Instead of one tick per second reduce the ticks, maybe .5 - .75 seconds. Reduce the amount of resource regain to make up for the reduction in time between ticks. Adjust tick timing and resource gain as needed. I believe this change would also benefit tanks and healers.

OR

2. Keep the damage from the first 2 ticks unchanged and increase the damage of the final tick to make up for the damage per second loss when compared to light attack builds.

I think option 2 would be the easiest change to make to the ZOS' ESO code.

Bonus, light attack builds would still be meta however those physically challenged would be able to play the harder content.

Please post your constructive suggestion(s) on how this could be fixed without breaking light attacks and weaving.

°

Also a fix would be to eliminate LA animation cancelling from the game as it is a glitch and totally mind numbing/finger breaking when done correctly. And in place of that make LA, MA, and heavy do more damage, and I would say that each type of attack should restore resources.

They did a test a while back playing around with this type of thing but don't think they took it seriously enough and as expected got a huge backlash from people who crutch on LA AC exploit.

I understand you don't like LAing, but let's not spread false info. LA weaving isn't an exploit. There's a random tip suggesting it in the loading screen. Also, correctly weaving your LA is only about once every second. That's hardly finger breaking.

It is also naive to assume people weave as a crutch. Effective LA weaving does add a significant amount of dps but it is primarily done for upping numbers on people that can do more damage than your average casual. It primarily comes down to knowing a proper rotation and having sets that allow you to do that.

Light Attacks are 15 percent of my 100k dps parse.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_exploit
Just because an exploit becomes accepted by a game developer, doesn't mean it isn't an exploit, doesn't mean that it is good for the game and doesn't mean they can't change their minds about allowing it.

BTW LA animation cancelling is what we are talking about (LA PLUS Skill in each second), NOT just doing some LAs in a rotation which is perfectly intended. The added benefit of LA AC is WAY more than just the 15-25% for just LA base damage you see in a parse readout. For instance, in a 10 second window you should only be able to do maybe 5 LA and 5 Skills or 3 LA and 7 Skills or 0 LA and 10 Skills (etc), however with LA AC you can ideally do 10 LA AND 10 Skills in the SAME 10 seconds. So you aren't ONLY gaining some LA damage, you are ALSO gaining a bunch of EXTRA skills and LAs in this rotation.

There are dozens of videos and many posts discussing going from 20-30K DPS to 40-50K just by doing 50% LA AC, then jumping to 70-80K by doing 75% and ONLY getting over 100K by doing LA AC over 90+%. So literally even just doing it better and better has massive impact. Please do not downplay how extremely powerful this tactic is.

BTW the random tip you all like to trot out just says to do LA and skill fast, it says NOTHING about animation canceling. ZOS should put out a training video or in game tutorial specifically TEACHING people how to do LA AC, if they believe this is a legit tactic that they want everyone to learn. Otherwise I can only go by what I heard Rich Lambert say on stream that they don't really like it and talk about fixing it all the time. They literally even tried doing something about it a while back. They obviously know it is bad but don't know how to deal with backlash if they finally fix it.

"Just because an exploit becomes accepted by a game developer, doesn't mean it isn't an exploit, doesn't mean that it is good for the game and doesn't mean they can't change their minds about allowing it."

Yeah, the inverse is also true. There have been a billion and one of these 'fix animation cancelling' threads since the game came out and not one person has been able to demonstrate a way in which it is bad for the game - only that they don't like it or are not capable of doing it as fast as other people.

"BTW LA animation cancelling is what we are talking about (LA PLUS Skill in each second), NOT just doing some LAs in a rotation which is perfectly intended. The added benefit of LA AC is WAY more than just the 15-25% for just LA base damage you see in a parse readout. For instance, in a 10 second window you should only be able to do maybe 5 LA and 5 Skills or 3 LA and 7 Skills or 0 LA and 10 Skills (etc), however with LA AC you can ideally do 10 LA AND 10 Skills in the SAME 10 seconds. So you aren't ONLY gaining some LA damage, you are ALSO gaining a bunch of EXTRA skills and LAs in this rotation."

Wrong, abilities and LA's have a 1 second internal cooldown. If you are fast enough, the game allows for you to potentially be able to get 10 skills and 10 Light Attacks off within 10 seconds - that's not an exploit. The idea that you 'should only be able to do maybe 5 LA and 5 Skills or 3 LA and 7 Skills or 0 LA and 10 Skills' is completely unfounded. You 'should' be able to attack as fast as you are able to attack within the 1 second cooldown restriction. Even if you can't attack that fast, Light Attacks will still be a significant amount of damage simply because they do a lot of damage.

"There are dozens of videos and many posts discussing going from 20-30K DPS to 40-50K just by doing 50% LA AC, then jumping to 70-80K by doing 75% and ONLY getting over 100K by doing LA AC over 90+%. So literally even just doing it better and better has massive impact. Please do not downplay how extremely powerful this tactic is."

Yeah, imagine that. People more skilled at using a tactic get better results. There is nothing exploitative about this notion.

"BTW the random tip you all like to trot out just says to do LA and skill fast, it says NOTHING about animation canceling. ZOS should put out a training video or in game tutorial specifically TEACHING people how to do LA AC, if they believe this is a legit tactic that they want everyone to learn."

You don't have to say anything about animation cancelling if you light attack after using a skill - it happens naturally. It's not like it's a secret technique that is being hidden from the rest of the community, and acting like it's a secret is being deliberately disingenuous. As an ancedote, I've never seen a video from any popular content creator that doesn't mention animation cancelling when referring to the technique of light attacking, so I don't know what you're talking about. If ZOS did put out tutorials or training videos in-game, Light Attacking/Animation Cancelling would be the least of these videos in terms of the important aspects of the game that are simply left for people to find out on their own. To tie the legitimacy of LA/AC to the lack of ZOS videos about it is absolutely ridiculous.

"Otherwise I can only go by what I heard Rich Lambert say on stream that they don't really like it and talk about fixing it all the time. They literally even tried doing something about it a while back."

Well, good luck going by what you hear Rich Lambert say on stream. They didn't try to do anything about animation cancelling a while back - they tried to tweak the way Light/Heavy attacks work.

"They obviously know it is bad but don't know how to deal with backlash if they finally fix it."

I don't think it's obvious that it's bad, considering that no one has been able to come up with a reason WHY it is bad. All they know is that people like you come on the forums and complain about it.

Imagine thinking that everyone doing more DPS than you is exploiting the game.