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PVE Heavy Attack Builds Produce half the DPS
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Succuby✭✭✭MudcrabAttack wrote: »sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »MudcrabAttack wrote: »Heavy attack builds only doing 50%????
Nah more like 85%+ if you Dual Wield
This is a stamina build that's typically focused on direct damage, I made no change other than going with fewer spammables and using heavy attacks while on the front bar.
A DOT-focused heavy attack build should do way better dps. Normally I'd hit 109k with pure light attack weaving on this Stamblade.
If you want to do this with a bow build forget it, bow heavy attacks are absolutely horrible, they give you gray hair from making you wait too long. I haven't tried it with a fire staff, but it would probably be awful too
Another LA HA hybrid parse.
Please present a parse with zero LAs.
Or just don't do weapon attacks at all on the back bar like the last poster mentioned
May be you know How much is it possible to get on the same bow + 2 handed sword build ? On DK ?
Want some DK 2 handed HA like build but now have problems with it
By only use HA and may be some LA backbar rotation on DK ?0 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭perfiction wrote: »sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »However half the damage per second output for a heavy attack build is not balanced.
Why not? HA builds require way less actions per minute (and skill), it's completely balanced that they deal less damage overall.
IMHO the game should be centered about the right choice of clicks and not the sheer number of clicks per minute.
@Ascarl
You do understand that currently it's both, right? That is where the skill comes. Making the right choice becomes more difficult the faster you need to do it. In a dynamic rotation, which is what the best players do for the most part, certainly what you almost always see on the massive YouTube parses, you are constantly having to make a decision as to what comes next. In other words, there is always a right or wrong choice in a rotation, and you are constantly making that *choice.
*I have two DOTs coming off cooldown, which one do I cast first. Do I cast my incap now or do I reapply back bar DOTs first so I can maximize my spammable. My curse just went off. Do I reapply or is there something more pressing like a frag proc. Or maybe my frags just proc'ed, do I cast it or reapply my blockade that just expired. How do I open a fight? How do I close a fight? Boss is at 27% how long until its time to switch to my execute, do I have time to reapply DOTs? What DOTs should I keep up during execute? The list goes on and on.
One of the biggest differences between a LA and HA rotation, is that you basically have a second to make that choice with a LA rotation (less if the next skill needs a bar swap). With a HA rotation, you have roughly 3 seconds to make that choice. I wonder which is more difficult. I wonder which should requires more "skill". I wonder which should pull more DPS.
Sure, you can play rotations statically, but they are always going to pull less DPS on a dummy, and that gets compounded in an actual fight with movement. One of the biggest issues we have is that people don't compare their parses to the average joe. They compare their parses to the cherry picked parse from an insanely good player. That 110k parse you see on youtube might have taken them 50 tries just with that setup. Most the people complaining their HA parse doesnt break 50k probably havent killed a Trial Dummy 50 times total. People are comparing Shiny Apples to Rotten Oranges.Edited by Oreyn_Bearclaw on December 2, 2021 5:06PM6 -
Ascarl✭✭✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »perfiction wrote: »sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »However half the damage per second output for a heavy attack build is not balanced.
Why not? HA builds require way less actions per minute (and skill), it's completely balanced that they deal less damage overall.
IMHO the game should be centered about the right choice of clicks and not the sheer number of clicks per minute.
@Ascarl
You do understand that currently it's both, right? That is where the skill comes. Making the right choice becomes more difficult the faster you need to do it. In a dynamic rotation, which is what the best players do for the most part, certainly what you almost always see on the massive YouTube parses, you are constantly having to make a decision as to what comes next. In other words, there is always a right or wrong choice in a rotation, and you are constantly making that *choice.
*I have two DOTs coming off cooldown, which one do I cast first. Do I cast my incap now or do I reapply back bar DOTs first so I can maximize my spammable. My curse just went off. Do I reapply or is there something more pressing like a frag proc. Or maybe my frags just proc'ed, do I cast it or reapply my blockade that just expired. How do I open a fight? How do I close a fight? Boss is at 27% how long until its time to switch to my execute, do I have time to reapply DOTs? What DOTs should I keep up during execute? The list goes on and on.
One of the biggest differences between a LA and HA rotation, is that you basically have a second to make that choice with a LA rotation (less if the next skill needs a bar swap). With a HA rotation, you have roughly 3 seconds to make that choice. I wonder which is more difficult. I wonder which should requires more "skill". I wonder which should pull more DPS.
Sure, you can play rotations statically, but they are always going to pull less DPS on a dummy, and that gets compounded in an actual fight with movement. One of the biggest issues we have is that people don't compare their parses to the average joe. They compare their parses to the cherry picked parse from an insanely good player. That 110k parse you see on youtube might have taken them 50 tries just with that setup. Most the people complaining their HA parse doesnt break 50k probably havent killed a Trial Dummy 50 times total. People are comparing Shiny Apples to Rotten Oranges.
This all stays true if LA canceling is removed and only dynamic rotations are used.1 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »perfiction wrote: »sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »However half the damage per second output for a heavy attack build is not balanced.
Why not? HA builds require way less actions per minute (and skill), it's completely balanced that they deal less damage overall.
IMHO the game should be centered about the right choice of clicks and not the sheer number of clicks per minute.
@Ascarl
You do understand that currently it's both, right? That is where the skill comes. Making the right choice becomes more difficult the faster you need to do it. In a dynamic rotation, which is what the best players do for the most part, certainly what you almost always see on the massive YouTube parses, you are constantly having to make a decision as to what comes next. In other words, there is always a right or wrong choice in a rotation, and you are constantly making that *choice.
*I have two DOTs coming off cooldown, which one do I cast first. Do I cast my incap now or do I reapply back bar DOTs first so I can maximize my spammable. My curse just went off. Do I reapply or is there something more pressing like a frag proc. Or maybe my frags just proc'ed, do I cast it or reapply my blockade that just expired. How do I open a fight? How do I close a fight? Boss is at 27% how long until its time to switch to my execute, do I have time to reapply DOTs? What DOTs should I keep up during execute? The list goes on and on.
One of the biggest differences between a LA and HA rotation, is that you basically have a second to make that choice with a LA rotation (less if the next skill needs a bar swap). With a HA rotation, you have roughly 3 seconds to make that choice. I wonder which is more difficult. I wonder which should requires more "skill". I wonder which should pull more DPS.
Sure, you can play rotations statically, but they are always going to pull less DPS on a dummy, and that gets compounded in an actual fight with movement. One of the biggest issues we have is that people don't compare their parses to the average joe. They compare their parses to the cherry picked parse from an insanely good player. That 110k parse you see on youtube might have taken them 50 tries just with that setup. Most the people complaining their HA parse doesnt break 50k probably havent killed a Trial Dummy 50 times total. People are comparing Shiny Apples to Rotten Oranges.
This all stays true if LA canceling is removed and only dynamic rotations are used.
First, you aren't canceling anything, you are weaving. Unless your connection and graphics are terrible, weaving light attacks looks very fluid. I see my staff go forward and shoot, and then it goes very smoothly into the skill. The skill animation is not cancelled. Doesnt this fit from a lore perspective? Would not a master swordsman in a fantasy realm sprinkle in attacks with his blade between his "magical" abilities?
Only Animation canceling you see in PVE is Swap canceling, admittedly that can look a little wonky, but without it, you cant maintain the pace of the GCD. The other is block cancelling. Removing block cancelling would be beyond detrimental to survivability. 99.9% of players do this every day without realizing it. Sometimes I actually wish they would remove block canceling from the game for an afternoon just to prove how necessary it actually is.
Second, With your solution, nobody ever light attacks. Why would you, any skill is infinitely more powerful than a light attack. You are also asking them to rework fundamental combat mechanics, GCDs, Skills, Sets, that have been baked into the game since launch. PVE would be come mind numbingly boring, and skill get virtually eliminated.
If you want to play that way, play a heavy attack rotation with your finger (or a macro toggle) glued to the HA button. You can cast skills at your leisure. If you are halfway decent, you will be within 20% of a perfect LA rotation with half the effort, more than enough DPS for any content in this game.
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MEBengalsFan2001✭✭✭✭✭I think this is by design. it seems Zenimax has purposely emphasized LAs over HAs.
A HA probably takes about a second to charge up and the GCD for a skill used afterward will be another second. That is assuming the player is not chaining HAs. The light attack followed by a skill takes just over a second room what I understand. So the APM is almost twice that of a HA build. More importantly, the use of a skill is almost twice as often and that should be a very significant factor in the LA build being far superior. Otherwise, we would just use basic attacks.
I really do not like LA game play, but if LA builds can do the same damage on HA rotation can we get our LA rotation on HA builds near the same as LA rotation on LA build ?
It do not sounds good for me !
Add more DPS to undaunted infiltrator than, add LA dps to inphelible aether whyle its buff is useless with all this updates.
Why some sets are underperforming ?
Build crafting was killed, why stop on that, lets all sets be the same - with no difference what you wear.
Why only 15 best sets you can put on and be happy ?
The answer to your question should be no for the very reason I provided in the second paragraph of what you quoted.
The most important point I made is that actually skills are much more powerful than basic attacks and should be. Since a HA build uses skills about half as often as a LA build the HA build should be weaker.
As for underperforming sets, that is not relevent to this thread.
LA weaving needs to be fixed. Without LA weaving you do less damage even if you go HA or pure abilities. Your statement alone that mentions abilities do more damage is true but without doing the LA between each ability you are dropping the damage significantly and considering that LA do more damage than HA need to be discussed more. Not everyone who plays ESO like getting copper tunnel syndrome at the expense of doing more damage. I gave up on PVE because I don't have the time to practice like I did when I played other MMO games and I rather just jump into the game and kill things. It is why I'm playing PVP even though I'm normally a PVE player.
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Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »perfiction wrote: »sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »However half the damage per second output for a heavy attack build is not balanced.
Why not? HA builds require way less actions per minute (and skill), it's completely balanced that they deal less damage overall.
IMHO the game should be centered about the right choice of clicks and not the sheer number of clicks per minute.
@Ascarl
You do understand that currently it's both, right? That is where the skill comes. Making the right choice becomes more difficult the faster you need to do it. In a dynamic rotation, which is what the best players do for the most part, certainly what you almost always see on the massive YouTube parses, you are constantly having to make a decision as to what comes next. In other words, there is always a right or wrong choice in a rotation, and you are constantly making that *choice.
*I have two DOTs coming off cooldown, which one do I cast first. Do I cast my incap now or do I reapply back bar DOTs first so I can maximize my spammable. My curse just went off. Do I reapply or is there something more pressing like a frag proc. Or maybe my frags just proc'ed, do I cast it or reapply my blockade that just expired. How do I open a fight? How do I close a fight? Boss is at 27% how long until its time to switch to my execute, do I have time to reapply DOTs? What DOTs should I keep up during execute? The list goes on and on.
One of the biggest differences between a LA and HA rotation, is that you basically have a second to make that choice with a LA rotation (less if the next skill needs a bar swap). With a HA rotation, you have roughly 3 seconds to make that choice. I wonder which is more difficult. I wonder which should requires more "skill". I wonder which should pull more DPS.
Sure, you can play rotations statically, but they are always going to pull less DPS on a dummy, and that gets compounded in an actual fight with movement. One of the biggest issues we have is that people don't compare their parses to the average joe. They compare their parses to the cherry picked parse from an insanely good player. That 110k parse you see on youtube might have taken them 50 tries just with that setup. Most the people complaining their HA parse doesnt break 50k probably havent killed a Trial Dummy 50 times total. People are comparing Shiny Apples to Rotten Oranges.
This all stays true if LA canceling is removed and only dynamic rotations are used.
And just to give some context, here is a parse I did about 8 months ago. Over 70k. There are no light OR heavy attacks (i did charge a 1 sec medium attack about every other rotation for ultimate, but I was careful not to weave or AC). I even did my best to not swap cancel, so there is nothing that can be called animation canceling. That would be the world you are describing. God was it boring and trivial to accomplish. If this became the norm, people would leave this game by the masses.
That said, if you want to play that way, nobody is stopping you. 70k will clear all content, and I bet that number is higher today than it was 8 months ago. If you don't want to animation cancel, don't. If you cant pull 70k, well, AC is NOT to blame. There is nothing short of a high leaderboard that you cant accomplish without AC. It would just be nice if people didn't want to destroy skill based endgame for people that actually like the system.
Edited by Oreyn_Bearclaw on December 3, 2021 5:24PM4 -
Ascarl✭✭✭✭✭
This is untrue. Combat mechanics changed over time many times. Even heavy attack was meta sometime in the past (around 17 or 18 IIRC).Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »You are also asking them to rework fundamental combat mechanics, GCDs, Skills, Sets, that have been baked into the game since launch.
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sonwon.1_ESO✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »perfiction wrote: »sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »However half the damage per second output for a heavy attack build is not balanced.
Why not? HA builds require way less actions per minute (and skill), it's completely balanced that they deal less damage overall.
IMHO the game should be centered about the right choice of clicks and not the sheer number of clicks per minute.
@Ascarl
You do understand that currently it's both, right? That is where the skill comes. Making the right choice becomes more difficult the faster you need to do it. In a dynamic rotation, which is what the best players do for the most part, certainly what you almost always see on the massive YouTube parses, you are constantly having to make a decision as to what comes next. In other words, there is always a right or wrong choice in a rotation, and you are constantly making that *choice.
*I have two DOTs coming off cooldown, which one do I cast first. Do I cast my incap now or do I reapply back bar DOTs first so I can maximize my spammable. My curse just went off. Do I reapply or is there something more pressing like a frag proc. Or maybe my frags just proc'ed, do I cast it or reapply my blockade that just expired. How do I open a fight? How do I close a fight? Boss is at 27% how long until its time to switch to my execute, do I have time to reapply DOTs? What DOTs should I keep up during execute? The list goes on and on.
One of the biggest differences between a LA and HA rotation, is that you basically have a second to make that choice with a LA rotation (less if the next skill needs a bar swap). With a HA rotation, you have roughly 3 seconds to make that choice. I wonder which is more difficult. I wonder which should requires more "skill". I wonder which should pull more DPS.
Sure, you can play rotations statically, but they are always going to pull less DPS on a dummy, and that gets compounded in an actual fight with movement. One of the biggest issues we have is that people don't compare their parses to the average joe. They compare their parses to the cherry picked parse from an insanely good player. That 110k parse you see on youtube might have taken them 50 tries just with that setup. Most the people complaining their HA parse doesnt break 50k probably havent killed a Trial Dummy 50 times total. People are comparing Shiny Apples to Rotten Oranges.
This all stays true if LA canceling is removed and only dynamic rotations are used.
And just to give some context, here is a parse I did about 8 months ago. Over 70k. There are no light OR heavy attacks. I even did my best to not swap cancel, so there is nothing that can be called animation canceling. That would be the world you are describing. God was it boring and trivial to accomplish. If this became the norm, people would leave this game by the masses.
That said, if you want to play that way, nobody is stopping you. 70k will clear all content, and I bet that number is higher today than it was 8 months ago. If you don't want to animation cancel, don't. If you cant pull 70k, well, AC is NOT to blame. There is nothing short of a high leaderboard that you cant accomplish without AC. It would just be nice if people didn't want to destroy skill based endgame for people that actually like the system.
FYI, your parse is to blurry to read, you left off part of the skills used and 70K is nowhere near 115k LA builds. 45k difference is 40% less than a LA build.
Another FYI, I didn't start this thread "... to destroy skill based endgame for people that actually like the system." I do not want this thread to become a LA vs HA thread.
I just want to call attention to the fact that heavy attack builds are unpowered by a large margin compared to light attack builds. I was looking for solutions for how this could be fixed without causing problems for the light attack builds. I think I have 4 ideas now are there any other suggestions?
Edited by sonwon.1_ESO on December 2, 2021 9:13PM0 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
This is untrue. Combat mechanics changed over time many times. Even heavy attack was meta sometime in the past (around 17 or 18 IIRC).Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »You are also asking them to rework fundamental combat mechanics, GCDs, Skills, Sets, that have been baked into the game since launch.
I remember when HA become meta. It was about a year after VMOL released. What happened was raid group become 8 sorc DPS. Rotations became 4 back bar DOTs (wall, trap, Familiar, Liquid Lighting), and two front bar lighting staff heavy attacks with a weave, Curse and and either a FP, Mages wrath or frags. Everyone was pulling the same DPS, lots of raid groups fell apart. It is mindnumbing. Then shortly after, we had the Heavy attack DK meta, it was just one giant circular rotations with HA between every front bar skill. Again, mind numbing. I am not saying that those shouldnt work, and guess what, those types of rotations still do work. I just dont think they should be leading the DPS charts because they are trivial to accomplish and the gameplay is dull.
Combat mechanics have absolutely changed over time, but end game players have been light attack weaving since before the stat rebalance. We were front barring and weaving Resto staffs and pulling 1-2k DPS, and it was META. Weaving and various forms of AC have been baked into the game since beta. Were all the consequences intended, no, but they have double down on them time and again.
If you want to pull crazy DPS, I think you should have to work for it, and a Dynamic LA rotation makes you do just that. If you want a softer option, there are HA builds that can still break 85k. If you don't want to do any type of weaving or AC, well you can still pull perfectly viable DPS. I don't see the problem here.Edited by Oreyn_Bearclaw on December 2, 2021 9:20PM3 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »perfiction wrote: »sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »However half the damage per second output for a heavy attack build is not balanced.
Why not? HA builds require way less actions per minute (and skill), it's completely balanced that they deal less damage overall.
IMHO the game should be centered about the right choice of clicks and not the sheer number of clicks per minute.
@Ascarl
You do understand that currently it's both, right? That is where the skill comes. Making the right choice becomes more difficult the faster you need to do it. In a dynamic rotation, which is what the best players do for the most part, certainly what you almost always see on the massive YouTube parses, you are constantly having to make a decision as to what comes next. In other words, there is always a right or wrong choice in a rotation, and you are constantly making that *choice.
*I have two DOTs coming off cooldown, which one do I cast first. Do I cast my incap now or do I reapply back bar DOTs first so I can maximize my spammable. My curse just went off. Do I reapply or is there something more pressing like a frag proc. Or maybe my frags just proc'ed, do I cast it or reapply my blockade that just expired. How do I open a fight? How do I close a fight? Boss is at 27% how long until its time to switch to my execute, do I have time to reapply DOTs? What DOTs should I keep up during execute? The list goes on and on.
One of the biggest differences between a LA and HA rotation, is that you basically have a second to make that choice with a LA rotation (less if the next skill needs a bar swap). With a HA rotation, you have roughly 3 seconds to make that choice. I wonder which is more difficult. I wonder which should requires more "skill". I wonder which should pull more DPS.
Sure, you can play rotations statically, but they are always going to pull less DPS on a dummy, and that gets compounded in an actual fight with movement. One of the biggest issues we have is that people don't compare their parses to the average joe. They compare their parses to the cherry picked parse from an insanely good player. That 110k parse you see on youtube might have taken them 50 tries just with that setup. Most the people complaining their HA parse doesnt break 50k probably havent killed a Trial Dummy 50 times total. People are comparing Shiny Apples to Rotten Oranges.
This all stays true if LA canceling is removed and only dynamic rotations are used.
And just to give some context, here is a parse I did about 8 months ago. Over 70k. There are no light OR heavy attacks. I even did my best to not swap cancel, so there is nothing that can be called animation canceling. That would be the world you are describing. God was it boring and trivial to accomplish. If this became the norm, people would leave this game by the masses.
That said, if you want to play that way, nobody is stopping you. 70k will clear all content, and I bet that number is higher today than it was 8 months ago. If you don't want to animation cancel, don't. If you cant pull 70k, well, AC is NOT to blame. There is nothing short of a high leaderboard that you cant accomplish without AC. It would just be nice if people didn't want to destroy skill based endgame for people that actually like the system.
FYI, your parse is to blurry to read, you left off part of the skills used and 70K is nowhere near 115k LA builds. 45k difference is 40% less than a LA build.
Another FYI, I didn't start this thread "... to destroy skill based endgame for people that actually like the system." I do not want this thread to become a LA vs HA thread.
I just want to call attention to the fact that heavy attack builds are unpowered by a large margin compared to light attack builds. I was looking for solutions for how this could be fixed without causing problems for the light attack builds. I think I have 4 ideas now are there any other suggestions?
Again, you are comparing apples to oranges. That build with light attacks might have broken 100k, but barely, at the time of that parse. Damage is higher now, and almost nobody pulls 115k DPS. I have pulled 110k with stam builds, but I have never come close to that on magic without some sort of cheese like a vamp toggle. You cant compare what the best players are doing currently to what I did in two tries 8 months ago, with almost no effort. If I spent anytime at all theory crafting or perfecting that build, i am sure it could have pulled closer to 80k. No idea what it could do now, but I really dont care to try, and my guess is that most people with the skill to pull 115k wouldnt be bothered either.
I am simply pointing out that you dont need any type of weapon attacks to be viable. Stop comparing average HA rotations to the extreme end of what the best are capable of. It's meaningless.
Edit: You should be able to open in a new window, but her is the direct link. https://imgur.com/oWzoa4g Not perfect but you can read it.Edited by Oreyn_Bearclaw on December 2, 2021 10:53PM4 -
CP5✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »perfiction wrote: »sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »However half the damage per second output for a heavy attack build is not balanced.
Why not? HA builds require way less actions per minute (and skill), it's completely balanced that they deal less damage overall.
IMHO the game should be centered about the right choice of clicks and not the sheer number of clicks per minute.
@Ascarl
You do understand that currently it's both, right? That is where the skill comes. Making the right choice becomes more difficult the faster you need to do it. In a dynamic rotation, which is what the best players do for the most part, certainly what you almost always see on the massive YouTube parses, you are constantly having to make a decision as to what comes next. In other words, there is always a right or wrong choice in a rotation, and you are constantly making that *choice.
*I have two DOTs coming off cooldown, which one do I cast first. Do I cast my incap now or do I reapply back bar DOTs first so I can maximize my spammable. My curse just went off. Do I reapply or is there something more pressing like a frag proc. Or maybe my frags just proc'ed, do I cast it or reapply my blockade that just expired. How do I open a fight? How do I close a fight? Boss is at 27% how long until its time to switch to my execute, do I have time to reapply DOTs? What DOTs should I keep up during execute? The list goes on and on.
One of the biggest differences between a LA and HA rotation, is that you basically have a second to make that choice with a LA rotation (less if the next skill needs a bar swap). With a HA rotation, you have roughly 3 seconds to make that choice. I wonder which is more difficult. I wonder which should requires more "skill". I wonder which should pull more DPS.
Sure, you can play rotations statically, but they are always going to pull less DPS on a dummy, and that gets compounded in an actual fight with movement. One of the biggest issues we have is that people don't compare their parses to the average joe. They compare their parses to the cherry picked parse from an insanely good player. That 110k parse you see on youtube might have taken them 50 tries just with that setup. Most the people complaining their HA parse doesnt break 50k probably havent killed a Trial Dummy 50 times total. People are comparing Shiny Apples to Rotten Oranges.
This all stays true if LA canceling is removed and only dynamic rotations are used.
And just to give some context, here is a parse I did about 8 months ago. Over 70k. There are no light OR heavy attacks. I even did my best to not swap cancel, so there is nothing that can be called animation canceling. That would be the world you are describing. God was it boring and trivial to accomplish. If this became the norm, people would leave this game by the masses.
That said, if you want to play that way, nobody is stopping you. 70k will clear all content, and I bet that number is higher today than it was 8 months ago. If you don't want to animation cancel, don't. If you cant pull 70k, well, AC is NOT to blame. There is nothing short of a high leaderboard that you cant accomplish without AC. It would just be nice if people didn't want to destroy skill based endgame for people that actually like the system.
FYI, your parse is to blurry to read, you left off part of the skills used and 70K is nowhere near 115k LA builds. 45k difference is 40% less than a LA build.
Another FYI, I didn't start this thread "... to destroy skill based endgame for people that actually like the system." I do not want this thread to become a LA vs HA thread.
I just want to call attention to the fact that heavy attack builds are unpowered by a large margin compared to light attack builds. I was looking for solutions for how this could be fixed without causing problems for the light attack builds. I think I have 4 ideas now are there any other suggestions?
As has been stated, light attacks are able to be weaved between skills since both have separate 1s global cooldowns so with good timing light attacks are free damage. That doesn't change the fact that the lions share of damage comes from skills, and heavy attacks directly reduce the number of skills you can cast since they take time to preform.
Heavy attacks were changed years ago to provide sustain, to be used as an option when your resources are low, they will never compensate for the loss of damage by not casting skills because they would become to powerful if they provided everything. Intentionally choosing to base a playstyle around something that delays the biggest source of damage will result in less damage, and without making heavy attacks so strong that they make up that difference they will always fall behind0 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »There is nothing short of a high leaderboard that you cant accomplish without AC. It would just be nice if people didn't want to destroy skill based endgame for people that actually like the system.
That's clearly not the case as there isn't a lot of them in endgame content.
Nobody is proposing to destroy end game.
Why is it when anybody proposes a change to this game people act like every change they don't like will be the end of the world as they know it? Heavy attack builds doing 90k and LA builds doing 110k somehow results in the total destruction of superior builds for leaderboard content.
I remember when someone made a suggestion that was more or less the stickerbook, people argued that every raid group would disband and dungeons and trials would be destoryed.
It's kind of crazy how every single change in this game can somehow destory the entire game
Edited by spartaxoxo on December 2, 2021 10:11PM3 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »There is nothing short of a high leaderboard that you cant accomplish without AC. It would just be nice if people didn't want to destroy skill based endgame for people that actually like the system.
That's clearly not the case as there isn't a lot of them in endgame content.
Nobody is proposing to destroy end game.
Why is it when anybody proposes a change to this game people act like every change they don't like will be the end of the world as they know it? Heavy attack builds doing 90k and LA builds doing 110k somehow results in the total destruction of superior builds for leaderboard content.
I remember when someone made a suggestion that was more or less the stickerbook, people argued that every raid group would disband and dungeons and trials would be destoryed.
It's kind of crazy how every single change in this game can somehow destory the entire game
My issue is that they are proposing changes based on misinformation and bad assumptions. The title of this thread is a blatant lie!
No weapon attacks or only heavy attacks are perfectly viable. Its not done often because most people actually try to do LA rotations because they enjoy it or they are under the false assumption its necessary. But you could absolutely clear all content without light or heavy attacks, certainly with only HAs. The DPS is there.
Heavy attack builds doing 90k and LAs doing 110k is really not far from where we are at now. Almost nobody is pulling 110k+. I know it can be done, but almost nobody is doing it. Mid to high 80s with a HA build, just isn't that hard to do from a player skill standpoint. Pulling 85k on a HA build is night and day easier than pulling 105k on a light attack build.
You will never hear me say that HAs shouldn't be viable. In fact, I have argued the opposite MANY times on this forum. I think it is an excellent way to raise the floor, something they claim to be trying to do. I am not opposed to a small buff to them, but if the floor is raised above the ceiling, the house has collapsed.
Why I get so worked up is the false comparisons being made. We have mediocre DPS comparing their HA parses to the best of the best cherry picked parses on YouTube. That overstates the actual gap between the two types of rotations. If you use that data as a justification to buff HA builds, we will by definition over buff them.
I do believe that when HA rotations were actually better than LA rotations (we have been there in the past), that end game was pretty dull. I don't think it would collapse the game. I am not naïve. I know that vet trials are a small part of the community, but I do think it would have a detrimental impact on competitive end game, because it seemed to the last time.
I realize that OP is not suggesting raising HAs above LAs. But if you make changes based on blatantly false assumptions then, that's what happens. He wants 80%, we are pretty much there right now. The title says its currently half (50%), which is just nonsense.Edited by Oreyn_Bearclaw on December 2, 2021 10:50PM3 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »I realize that OP is not suggesting raising HAs above LAs. But if you make changes based on blatantly false assumptions then, that's what happens. He wants 80%, we are pretty much there right now. The title says its currently half (50%), which is just nonsense.
The developers understand the numbers and don't need people making bad faith statements that directly contradict what people are asking for to not tweak the numbers to something reasonable. They never just take our words at numbers.
The OP is specifically asking for HAs to be closer to, but underneath, LA weaving in terms of effectiveness. Sure we can say this is not a good example because xyz, but it's bad faith when we argue that he is asking for something he explicitly states he doesn't want to see: which is HA being pushed above LA.
As long as LA remains the meta, HA can be made stronger. And should be, because as yourself point out it lowers the gap between ceiling and floor. Which is what OP wants to accomplish even if his examples are bad.
We can trust the devs not to just blindly follow one guy's youtube video.3 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »I realize that OP is not suggesting raising HAs above LAs. But if you make changes based on blatantly false assumptions then, that's what happens. He wants 80%, we are pretty much there right now. The title says its currently half (50%), which is just nonsense.
The developers understand the numbers and don't need people making bad faith statements that directly contradict what people are asking for to not tweak the numbers to something reasonable. They never just take our words at numbers.
The OP is specifically asking for HAs to be closer to, but underneath, LA weaving in terms of effectiveness. Sure we can say this is not a good example because xyz, but it's bad faith when we argue that he is asking for something he explicitly states he doesn't want to see: which is HA being pushed above LA.
As long as LA remains the meta, HA can be made stronger. And should be, because as yourself point out it lowers the gap between ceiling and floor. Which is what OP wants to accomplish even if his examples are bad.
We can trust the devs not to just blindly follow one guy's youtube video.
I honestly have no idea what we are even arguing about. We are saying the same thing. My entire point is that OP wants a buff based on an assumption. That assumption is blatantly false. That's all I got.2 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »I realize that OP is not suggesting raising HAs above LAs. But if you make changes based on blatantly false assumptions then, that's what happens. He wants 80%, we are pretty much there right now. The title says its currently half (50%), which is just nonsense.
The developers understand the numbers and don't need people making bad faith statements that directly contradict what people are asking for to not tweak the numbers to something reasonable. They never just take our words at numbers.
The OP is specifically asking for HAs to be closer to, but underneath, LA weaving in terms of effectiveness. Sure we can say this is not a good example because xyz, but it's bad faith when we argue that he is asking for something he explicitly states he doesn't want to see: which is HA being pushed above LA.
As long as LA remains the meta, HA can be made stronger. And should be, because as yourself point out it lowers the gap between ceiling and floor. Which is what OP wants to accomplish even if his examples are bad.
We can trust the devs not to just blindly follow one guy's youtube video.
I honestly have no idea what we are even arguing about. We are saying the same thing. My entire point is that OP wants a buff based on an assumption. That assumption is blatantly false. That's all I got.
My point is that the OP wants a buff based off more than a single stat, and him getting a single stat wrong did not change the substance of his argument into a completely different argument.0 -
Merlin13KAGL✭✭✭✭✭
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So swap it to (or a hybrid of) dynamic keypress skill checks (God of War / Witcher) or on screen skill checks (Atlas / Dead by Daylight).Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »MudcrabAttack wrote: »sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »colossalvoids wrote: »sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »I think it is possible to make around 70k with only HA on atro, but i dislike that sets like inphelible aether is HA only set, undaunted infiltrator - ha set too.
But how much is possible to do makeing LA on it ? Small numbers. The same for HA it do not give good damage output. Relequin may be can give better output and it is LA set, that even on HA gives good numbers.
Inphelible aether may be need a little more love ?
https://youtu.be/DgAyU5Eyz-I
Plus to all this undaunted infiltrator is now prebaff set - it is not comfortable to activate it. For me is a little strange that in some Kinrass + relequin may be is possible to make more HA + LA dps than on HA + LA designed sets.
Aether is too weak in current reality It is good set but it need better numbers or its numbers add to LA too as example.
Another LA HA hybrid video.
Hmm, 70k dps on pure HA, I would like to see that video.
I'm not quite sure what you're willing to see exactly? A build that do a heavy between every skill he's casting no matter timings, class conditions and just wasting time between each skill right? Or just not casting anything at all with a mouse while recasting dots or using an execute for example? Because heavy attack builds absolutely do use light attacks when necessary (heavy is just used instead of a spammable, usually buffed by a degeneration skill), if that's not just people having no idea what they're doing or a simple 1-2 dots down and spam ha builds.
When you're asking for a good parse it's automatically includes knowledge and good execution, if you want pure ha with all the downtimes or a one bar build with for example pets to be competitive it's basically as asking why 1h sword build without any other weapon equipped underperforming, the answer is already here.MudcrabAttack wrote: »sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »MudcrabAttack wrote: »Heavy attack builds only doing 50%????
Nah more like 85%+ if you Dual Wield
This is a stamina build that's typically focused on direct damage, I made no change other than going with fewer spammables and using heavy attacks while on the front bar.
A DOT-focused heavy attack build should do way better dps. Normally I'd hit 109k with pure light attack weaving on this Stamblade.
If you want to do this with a bow build forget it, bow heavy attacks are absolutely horrible, they give you gray hair from making you wait too long. I haven't tried it with a fire staff, but it would probably be awful too
Another LA HA hybrid parse.
Please present a parse with zero LAs.
Or just don't do weapon attacks at all on the back bar like the last poster mentioned
Looks interesting, do you have a video to share?
Also, can you show us all of the parse, use the scrollbars?
I was on the PTS to see what pillar of nirn set was like, but I think I forgot to save the parse. The lower parts of the parse are 1kdps killers blade, 1kdps poison and fire glyph damage, 2kdps assassins scourge, 2kdps burning/ poisoned/ hemorrhage status effects that are relatively high thanks to the charged weapon.
No video, but all I did was hold down the heavy attack button for 4 minutes while cycling through the skills.
Rotation was Stampede / Carve / Relentless Focus or ultimate / Twisting Path / Barbed Trap or Dark Shade (depending on which needs a refresh) then repeat
Remember this is a Nightblade, maybe the worst possible choice for a heavy attack build. The class strength is in killers blade execute damage, which should be spammed as fast as possible during the last 25% health but I only used it 6 times. The dps was decent mostly because ZOS buffed charged weapon trait (good for dual wield, not great for two hand weapons), maelstrom 2H (3kdps higher), twisting path (now 9kdps for stamblade), proc sets (they crit now), carve (triple stacking bleed) and stampede (big nasty AOE direct damage hit). A couple of patches ago this would have been horribly bad dps if I tried all the same exact stuff.
And that right there is why HA rotations are trivial in the current combat system. You can basically put a paperweight over your LMB and press a skill every 2.5-3.0 seconds. On what planet should that give the same damage as a 120+ APM rotation requiring very precise timing. Sounds like a planet where everyone gets a trophy before playing the game if you ask me.
Right now we have like a 20% DPS difference. Seems about right.
Speed of reaction would still be a factor without the need for the perfect timing? Skills/CP stars/gear could allow someone's character to have a better response (window size, key variance reduction) to help offset those with disabilities or slower reactions, but never to the level of the fastest actual response by skilled players.
That would still allow a skill gap, would make things even more dynamic, as those aspects couldn't be memorized and might help even the playing field without completely leveling it flat.
It might make things even more engaging because it wouldn't be so repetitive in nature.
Just because you don't like the way something is doesn't necessarily make it wrong...
Earn it.
IRL'ing for a while for assorted reasons, in forum, and in game.I am neither warm, nor fuzzy...
Probably has checkbox on Customer Service profile that say High Aggro, 99% immunity to BS0 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »I think this is by design. it seems Zenimax has purposely emphasized LAs over HAs.
A HA probably takes about a second to charge up and the GCD for a skill used afterward will be another second. That is assuming the player is not chaining HAs. The light attack followed by a skill takes just over a second room what I understand. So the APM is almost twice that of a HA build. More importantly, the use of a skill is almost twice as often and that should be a very significant factor in the LA build being far superior. Otherwise, we would just use basic attacks.
I really do not like LA game play, but if LA builds can do the same damage on HA rotation can we get our LA rotation on HA builds near the same as LA rotation on LA build ?
It do not sounds good for me !
Add more DPS to undaunted infiltrator than, add LA dps to inphelible aether whyle its buff is useless with all this updates.
Why some sets are underperforming ?
Build crafting was killed, why stop on that, lets all sets be the same - with no difference what you wear.
Why only 15 best sets you can put on and be happy ?
The answer to your question should be no for the very reason I provided in the second paragraph of what you quoted.
The most important point I made is that actually skills are much more powerful than basic attacks and should be. Since a HA build uses skills about half as often as a LA build the HA build should be weaker.
As for underperforming sets, that is not relevent to this thread.
LA weaving needs to be fixed. Without LA weaving you do less damage even if you go HA or pure abilities. Your statement alone that mentions abilities do more damage is true but without doing the LA between each ability you are dropping the damage significantly and considering that LA do more damage than HA need to be discussed more. Not everyone who plays ESO like getting copper tunnel syndrome at the expense of doing more damage. I gave up on PVE because I don't have the time to practice like I did when I played other MMO games and I rather just jump into the game and kill things. It is why I'm playing PVP even though I'm normally a PVE player.
Obviously damage will increase with weaving LAs. I didn’t suggest otherwise. I merely pointed out why a HA build is inferior and it should be inferior to a build any other weaving build including builds that do not weave. Skills should do more damage for the ammount of time they take than any basic attack.
Also, before Zenimax buffed LAs weaving LAs and even MAs boosted a player damage. That wasn’t broken.Edited by Amottica on December 3, 2021 1:39AM1 -
MudcrabAttack✭✭✭✭MudcrabAttack wrote: »sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »MudcrabAttack wrote: »Heavy attack builds only doing 50%????
Nah more like 85%+ if you Dual Wield
This is a stamina build that's typically focused on direct damage, I made no change other than going with fewer spammables and using heavy attacks while on the front bar.
A DOT-focused heavy attack build should do way better dps. Normally I'd hit 109k with pure light attack weaving on this Stamblade.
If you want to do this with a bow build forget it, bow heavy attacks are absolutely horrible, they give you gray hair from making you wait too long. I haven't tried it with a fire staff, but it would probably be awful too
Another LA HA hybrid parse.
Please present a parse with zero LAs.
Or just don't do weapon attacks at all on the back bar like the last poster mentioned
May be you know How much is it possible to get on the same bow + 2 handed sword build ? On DK ?
Want some DK 2 handed HA like build but now have problems with it
By only use HA and may be some LA backbar rotation on DK ?
That's more of a challenge, 2H heavy attacks take about 2 seconds when weaving between skills whereas dual wield is about 1.75 seconds, don't even try weaving heavy bow attacks. The good thing about the dragonknight build with a bow is most of the important skills last 14-15 seconds, endless hail, venemous claw, flames of oblivion, maybe noxious breath. The bad and the ugly comes with 2H on the front bar, as you wait 2 seconds between each whiff of the 2H weapon, you'll be trying to reapply damage over time as soon as each effect ends, but stampede lasts only 10 seconds, and you must use carve faster than every 12 seconds to maximize dps. The triple stacking carve bleed is a must, but it's an awkward timing to line up with all the other 14-15 second stuff, so you might wind up overcasting, which is maybe a little better than undercasting it.
Sets: I think pillar of nirn front bar weapon + 3more pieces / relequen (body or jewelry), 1 piece slimecraw is the best bet for single target heavy attack dps sets, and the kilt for trials or thrassian stranglers for 4 player stuff. I'd put a flame glyph on one of the weapons since dragonknights have a big flame status buff in addition to poison status buff. Maybe weapon damage glyph on infused back bar, and I saw a very nice DK parse with charged front bar weapon, really cranking up the status effect dpsEdited by MudcrabAttack on December 3, 2021 5:05AM0 -
LashanW✭✭✭✭✭
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How did you get ultimate for storm atronach without light or heavy attacks? I tried the same thing recently and my dps was 64k. I had zero ultimate generation so I could only cast my atro at the very beginning.Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »And just to give some context, here is a parse I did about 8 months ago. Over 70k. There are no light OR heavy attacks. I even did my best to not swap cancel, so there is nothing that can be called animation canceling. That would be the world you are describing. God was it boring and trivial to accomplish. If this became the norm, people would leave this game by the masses.---No longer active in ESO---
Platform: PC-EU
CP: 2500+Trial Achievements
Godslayer, Gryphon Heart, Tick-Tock Tormentor, Immortal Redeemer, Dro-m'Athra Destroyer, vMoL no death
Arena Achievements
vMA Flawless, vVH Spirit Slayer
DLC Dungeon Trifectas
Scalecaller Peak, Fang Lair, Depths of Malatar, Icereach0 -
MudcrabAttack✭✭✭✭I got back onto the PTS to verify that there's a point where heavy attacks can do little harm to a build as long as they're used in a way that makes sense, in fact it compliments it to an extent and makes a rotation a bit more tightly packaged and easier to manage. IMHO pure heavy attack builds shouldn't be sought after, especially on a class like nightblade, where the end of a fight could be execute damage used as quickly as possible.
Here's the 100% heavy attacks again (removed rending slashes, surprise attack, deadly cloak): 750 stamina drain
3 heavy attacks per rotation (removed surprise attack, deadly cloak, spammed killers blade quickly as possible after 25%): 1099 stamina drain
2 heavy attacks per rotation (removed surprise attack, spammed killers blade quickly as possible after 25%): 1249 stamina drain
No heavy attacks: 1543 stamina drain
It's not important to land every light attack in a rotation. You can still crank out a lot of DPS even if you miss a lot of light attacks, on stamina builds at least. I guess a maelstrom staff changes that dynamic for a mageEdited by MudcrabAttack on December 3, 2021 7:14AM4 -
Succuby✭✭✭MudcrabAttack wrote: »I got back onto the PTS to verify that there's a point where heavy attacks can do little harm to a build as long as they're used in a way that makes sense, in fact it compliments it to an extent and makes a rotation a bit more tightly packaged and easier to manage. IMHO pure heavy attack builds shouldn't be sought after, especially on a class like nightblade, where the end of a fight could be execute damage used as quickly as possible.
Here's the 100% heavy attacks again (removed rending slashes, surprise attack, deadly cloak): 750 stamina drain
3 heavy attacks per rotation (removed surprise attack, deadly cloak, spammed killers blade quickly as possible after 25%): 1099 stamina drain
2 heavy attacks per rotation (removed surprise attack, spammed killers blade quickly as possible after 25%): 1249 stamina drain
No heavy attacks: 1543 stamina drain
It's not important to land every light attack in a rotation. You can still crank out a lot of DPS even if you miss a lot of light attacks, on stamina builds at least. I guess a maelstrom staff changes that dynamic for a mage
How the same build will work on DK ?1 -
sonwon.1_ESO✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »perfiction wrote: »sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »However half the damage per second output for a heavy attack build is not balanced.
Why not? HA builds require way less actions per minute (and skill), it's completely balanced that they deal less damage overall.
IMHO the game should be centered about the right choice of clicks and not the sheer number of clicks per minute.
@Ascarl
You do understand that currently it's both, right? That is where the skill comes. Making the right choice becomes more difficult the faster you need to do it. In a dynamic rotation, which is what the best players do for the most part, certainly what you almost always see on the massive YouTube parses, you are constantly having to make a decision as to what comes next. In other words, there is always a right or wrong choice in a rotation, and you are constantly making that *choice.
*I have two DOTs coming off cooldown, which one do I cast first. Do I cast my incap now or do I reapply back bar DOTs first so I can maximize my spammable. My curse just went off. Do I reapply or is there something more pressing like a frag proc. Or maybe my frags just proc'ed, do I cast it or reapply my blockade that just expired. How do I open a fight? How do I close a fight? Boss is at 27% how long until its time to switch to my execute, do I have time to reapply DOTs? What DOTs should I keep up during execute? The list goes on and on.
One of the biggest differences between a LA and HA rotation, is that you basically have a second to make that choice with a LA rotation (less if the next skill needs a bar swap). With a HA rotation, you have roughly 3 seconds to make that choice. I wonder which is more difficult. I wonder which should requires more "skill". I wonder which should pull more DPS.
Sure, you can play rotations statically, but they are always going to pull less DPS on a dummy, and that gets compounded in an actual fight with movement. One of the biggest issues we have is that people don't compare their parses to the average joe. They compare their parses to the cherry picked parse from an insanely good player. That 110k parse you see on youtube might have taken them 50 tries just with that setup. Most the people complaining their HA parse doesnt break 50k probably havent killed a Trial Dummy 50 times total. People are comparing Shiny Apples to Rotten Oranges.
This all stays true if LA canceling is removed and only dynamic rotations are used.
And just to give some context, here is a parse I did about 8 months ago. Over 70k. There are no light OR heavy attacks. I even did my best to not swap cancel, so there is nothing that can be called animation canceling. That would be the world you are describing. God was it boring and trivial to accomplish. If this became the norm, people would leave this game by the masses.
That said, if you want to play that way, nobody is stopping you. 70k will clear all content, and I bet that number is higher today than it was 8 months ago. If you don't want to animation cancel, don't. If you cant pull 70k, well, AC is NOT to blame. There is nothing short of a high leaderboard that you cant accomplish without AC. It would just be nice if people didn't want to destroy skill based endgame for people that actually like the system.
FYI, your parse is to blurry to read, you left off part of the skills used and 70K is nowhere near 115k LA builds. 45k difference is 40% less than a LA build.
Another FYI, I didn't start this thread "... to destroy skill based endgame for people that actually like the system." I do not want this thread to become a LA vs HA thread.
I just want to call attention to the fact that heavy attack builds are unpowered by a large margin compared to light attack builds. I was looking for solutions for how this could be fixed without causing problems for the light attack builds. I think I have 4 ideas now are there any other suggestions?
Again, you are comparing apples to oranges. That build with light attacks might have broken 100k, but barely, at the time of that parse. Damage is higher now, and almost nobody pulls 115k DPS. I have pulled 110k with stam builds, but I have never come close to that on magic without some sort of cheese like a vamp toggle. You cant compare what the best players are doing currently to what I did in two tries 8 months ago, with almost no effort. If I spent anytime at all theory crafting or perfecting that build, i am sure it could have pulled closer to 80k. No idea what it could do now, but I really dont care to try, and my guess is that most people with the skill to pull 115k wouldnt be bothered either.
I am simply pointing out that you dont need any type of weapon attacks to be viable. Stop comparing average HA rotations to the extreme end of what the best are capable of. It's meaningless.
Edit: You should be able to open in a new window, but her is the direct link. https://imgur.com/oWzoa4g Not perfect but you can read it.
That parse is still missing almost half of the abilities.0 -
sonwon.1_ESO✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »There is nothing short of a high leaderboard that you cant accomplish without AC. It would just be nice if people didn't want to destroy skill based endgame for people that actually like the system.
That's clearly not the case as there isn't a lot of them in endgame content.
Nobody is proposing to destroy end game.
Why is it when anybody proposes a change to this game people act like every change they don't like will be the end of the world as they know it? Heavy attack builds doing 90k and LA builds doing 110k somehow results in the total destruction of superior builds for leaderboard content.
I remember when someone made a suggestion that was more or less the stickerbook, people argued that every raid group would disband and dungeons and trials would be destoryed.
It's kind of crazy how every single change in this game can somehow destory the entire game
My issue is that they are proposing changes based on misinformation and bad assumptions. The title of this thread is a blatant lie!
No weapon attacks or only heavy attacks are perfectly viable. Its not done often because most people actually try to do LA rotations because they enjoy it or they are under the false assumption its necessary. But you could absolutely clear all content without light or heavy attacks, certainly with only HAs. The DPS is there.
Heavy attack builds doing 90k and LAs doing 110k is really not far from where we are at now. Almost nobody is pulling 110k+. I know it can be done, but almost nobody is doing it. Mid to high 80s with a HA build, just isn't that hard to do from a player skill standpoint. Pulling 85k on a HA build is night and day easier than pulling 105k on a light attack build.
You will never hear me say that HAs shouldn't be viable. In fact, I have argued the opposite MANY times on this forum. I think it is an excellent way to raise the floor, something they claim to be trying to do. I am not opposed to a small buff to them, but if the floor is raised above the ceiling, the house has collapsed.
Why I get so worked up is the false comparisons being made. We have mediocre DPS comparing their HA parses to the best of the best cherry picked parses on YouTube. That overstates the actual gap between the two types of rotations. If you use that data as a justification to buff HA builds, we will by definition over buff them.
I do believe that when HA rotations were actually better than LA rotations (we have been there in the past), that end game was pretty dull. I don't think it would collapse the game. I am not naïve. I know that vet trials are a small part of the community, but I do think it would have a detrimental impact on competitive end game, because it seemed to the last time.
I realize that OP is not suggesting raising HAs above LAs. But if you make changes based on blatantly false assumptions then, that's what happens. He wants 80%, we are pretty much there right now. The title says its currently half (50%), which is just nonsense.
Your assumption that the title is a lie is false and I would ask that you keep the discourse respectful. My perceptions are based on in game experiences compared to meta LA builds. Now I admit I have not played every class so it is possible that there are builds out there that do more damage than half. I have yet to see a video or screenshots of a pure heavy attack build showing all of the abilities doing as much damage as you claim a HA build can do. I've asked several times so I will ask again, please provide such information.
Assuming such a build is out there then that would leave a 29% gap between a Stamblade LA build (111k) and HA build (86k). 29% is a sizeable difference. It is likely that HA builds between classes are severely unbalanced and less so for LA builds? I would add that not everyone wants to play a Stamblade.
Also not every player is capable of playing a LA weave build due to physical constraints. By making some slight tweaks we can have a game that will allow a larger share of players to participate in high end game content like DLC HM and trials (hard mode included). I believe this would be a win for all players!
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ElvenOverlord✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »perfiction wrote: »sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »However half the damage per second output for a heavy attack build is not balanced.
Why not? HA builds require way less and actions per minute (and skill), it's completely balanced that they deal less damage overall.
Why would you cut out the sentences where he acknowledged that just to tell him information that's in the opening post? What a strawman. He literally says the opposite in his post.
He feels it should be 80% of the damage rather than half. That is not wanting it to be the same as light attack damage.
What straw man? The only thing he's saying here is that he disagrees. He thinks half is balanced while the OP does not. That's literally it.2 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »There is nothing short of a high leaderboard that you cant accomplish without AC. It would just be nice if people didn't want to destroy skill based endgame for people that actually like the system.
That's clearly not the case as there isn't a lot of them in endgame content.
Nobody is proposing to destroy end game.
Why is it when anybody proposes a change to this game people act like every change they don't like will be the end of the world as they know it? Heavy attack builds doing 90k and LA builds doing 110k somehow results in the total destruction of superior builds for leaderboard content.
I remember when someone made a suggestion that was more or less the stickerbook, people argued that every raid group would disband and dungeons and trials would be destoryed.
It's kind of crazy how every single change in this game can somehow destory the entire game
My issue is that they are proposing changes based on misinformation and bad assumptions. The title of this thread is a blatant lie!
No weapon attacks or only heavy attacks are perfectly viable. Its not done often because most people actually try to do LA rotations because they enjoy it or they are under the false assumption its necessary. But you could absolutely clear all content without light or heavy attacks, certainly with only HAs. The DPS is there.
Heavy attack builds doing 90k and LAs doing 110k is really not far from where we are at now. Almost nobody is pulling 110k+. I know it can be done, but almost nobody is doing it. Mid to high 80s with a HA build, just isn't that hard to do from a player skill standpoint. Pulling 85k on a HA build is night and day easier than pulling 105k on a light attack build.
You will never hear me say that HAs shouldn't be viable. In fact, I have argued the opposite MANY times on this forum. I think it is an excellent way to raise the floor, something they claim to be trying to do. I am not opposed to a small buff to them, but if the floor is raised above the ceiling, the house has collapsed.
Why I get so worked up is the false comparisons being made. We have mediocre DPS comparing their HA parses to the best of the best cherry picked parses on YouTube. That overstates the actual gap between the two types of rotations. If you use that data as a justification to buff HA builds, we will by definition over buff them.
I do believe that when HA rotations were actually better than LA rotations (we have been there in the past), that end game was pretty dull. I don't think it would collapse the game. I am not naïve. I know that vet trials are a small part of the community, but I do think it would have a detrimental impact on competitive end game, because it seemed to the last time.
I realize that OP is not suggesting raising HAs above LAs. But if you make changes based on blatantly false assumptions then, that's what happens. He wants 80%, we are pretty much there right now. The title says its currently half (50%), which is just nonsense.
Your assumption that the title is a lie is false and I would ask that you keep the discourse respectful. My perceptions are based on in game experiences compared to meta LA builds. Now I admit I have not played every class so it is possible that there are builds out there that do more damage than half. I have yet to see a video or screenshots of a pure heavy attack build showing all of the abilities doing as much damage as you claim a HA build can do. I've asked several times so I will ask again, please provide such information.
Assuming such a build is out there then that would leave a 29% gap between a Stamblade LA build (111k) and HA build (86k). 29% is a sizeable difference. It is likely that HA builds between classes are severely unbalanced and less so for LA builds? I would add that not everyone wants to play a Stamblade.
Also not every player is capable of playing a LA weave build due to physical constraints. By making some slight tweaks we can have a game that will allow a larger share of players to participate in high end game content like DLC HM and trials (hard mode included). I believe this would be a win for all players!
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This is my whole point. You are comparing what you are capable of with what the best of the best are capable of and drawing incorrect conclusions about how big the gap actually is. I don't dispute there is a gap. I dont dispute that there might be a meaningful way to close the gap a bit.
I really don't mean to be disrespectful, but are YOU capable of pulling 110K on a light attack build? No I am not asking for a parse, and not trying to be insulting, but it is relevant to the discussion. If you arent (and that's okay, most people arent), you cant compare your HA parse to LA parse you found on YouTube. It is wildly overstating the gap. Regardless of the types of attacks are used, there is a skill set to parsing. If you want to actually measure the gap that exists, someone of the same skill needs to be doing both tests.
Someone that is capable of pulling 110k on a LA Build is going to be able to pull north of 85-90K on a HA build. That is right in line with the 80% you are asking for. You percentages are also a little funny. I believe you said you wanted 80% of the damage. 80% of 110 is 88.
You simply cant take a player of skill level 5/10, look at their HA parse, then take a player with skill level 10/10, look at their LA parse, and say, the gap between the two playstyles is X. It's not a fair comparison. If you want some data, I see two good options.
One look at @MudcrabAttack 's recent post. It really shows what can be done with various levels of HAs by a skilled player. His baseline is roughly 111k with a LA weave. With 3 per rotation, he is at 105K, with roughly 8k of LAs. That is net of 97k. 97/111 is 87% of the DPS.
Two: Look at your own parses. Give your best effort with a LA build, and give your best effort with a HA build, and look at the difference. I would be beyond shocked if you saw a 50% difference. It is simply bad science to compare your HA parse to Mudcrabs LA parse.
*Also, you keep asking about DKs. Been a while since I parsed on a DK, but they probably do better with a HA build than a NB. NBs are all about insta cast spammables, which play to LAs. DKs are all about DOTs, which play better to HAs. Now a DKs ceiling might not be as high as a NB's, but then you are getting into class balance more than LA/HA balance.
If we make it so an average player can pull 90k with a HA build, think about what someone like Mudcrab would be able to do with it.
How did you get ultimate for storm atronach without light or heavy attacks? I tried the same thing recently and my dps was 64k. I had zero ultimate generation so I could only cast my atro at the very beginning.Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »And just to give some context, here is a parse I did about 8 months ago. Over 70k. There are no light OR heavy attacks. I even did my best to not swap cancel, so there is nothing that can be called animation canceling. That would be the world you are describing. God was it boring and trivial to accomplish. If this became the norm, people would leave this game by the masses.
I am have to eat my words slightly on that. It was 9 months ago. If memory serves, I did a parse, realized I didnt build any ult. So on the next rotation, about every 10-15 seconds, instead of hard casting frags, I charged what is informally called a medium attack. Game would register as a HA, but they hit like a we paper towel.
The reason I did that was so I could charge for a the full duration of a global cooldown, essentially treat it like a 1 second cast, and thus not actually weave or AC anything. The damage was obviously less then 1k total as it didnt show up on that screen shot. I don't have the original parse saved, but if memory serves it was like 300-400 DPS. You would of course be better off weaving in a LA or HA once per rotation, but the purpose of that parse was in the context of what AC/Weaving does to your parse, not a LA/HA discussion. So yes, the game does make you do some sort of weapon attack if you want to use ultimates.Edited by Oreyn_Bearclaw on December 3, 2021 5:15PM1 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »I realize that OP is not suggesting raising HAs above LAs. But if you make changes based on blatantly false assumptions then, that's what happens. He wants 80%, we are pretty much there right now. The title says its currently half (50%), which is just nonsense.
The developers understand the numbers and don't need people making bad faith statements that directly contradict what people are asking for to not tweak the numbers to something reasonable. They never just take our words at numbers.
The OP is specifically asking for HAs to be closer to, but underneath, LA weaving in terms of effectiveness. Sure we can say this is not a good example because xyz, but it's bad faith when we argue that he is asking for something he explicitly states he doesn't want to see: which is HA being pushed above LA.
As long as LA remains the meta, HA can be made stronger. And should be, because as yourself point out it lowers the gap between ceiling and floor. Which is what OP wants to accomplish even if his examples are bad.
We can trust the devs not to just blindly follow one guy's youtube video.
I honestly have no idea what we are even arguing about. We are saying the same thing. My entire point is that OP wants a buff based on an assumption. That assumption is blatantly false. That's all I got.
My point is that the OP wants a buff based off more than a single stat, and him getting a single stat wrong did not change the substance of his argument into a completely different argument.
From what I can tell, OP wants his HA attack rotation to be 80% of what he is seeing on youtube, which is a handful of people pulling 110k+ with a perfect LA build. If ZOS made that happen, people pulling 110k with a LA rotation would be pulling like 130k with a HA rotation. LOL.2 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭MudcrabAttack wrote: »I got back onto the PTS to verify that there's a point where heavy attacks can do little harm to a build as long as they're used in a way that makes sense, in fact it compliments it to an extent and makes a rotation a bit more tightly packaged and easier to manage. IMHO pure heavy attack builds shouldn't be sought after, especially on a class like nightblade, where the end of a fight could be execute damage used as quickly as possible.
Here's the 100% heavy attacks again (removed rending slashes, surprise attack, deadly cloak): 750 stamina drain
3 heavy attacks per rotation (removed surprise attack, deadly cloak, spammed killers blade quickly as possible after 25%): 1099 stamina drain
2 heavy attacks per rotation (removed surprise attack, spammed killers blade quickly as possible after 25%): 1249 stamina drain
No heavy attacks: 1543 stamina drain
It's not important to land every light attack in a rotation. You can still crank out a lot of DPS even if you miss a lot of light attacks, on stamina builds at least. I guess a maelstrom staff changes that dynamic for a mage
This is good information. Not only does a heavy attack build do more than 1/2 but adding more use of skills and still retaining some heavy attacks does good damage. Better than I expected and shows the design is good.2 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »I realize that OP is not suggesting raising HAs above LAs. But if you make changes based on blatantly false assumptions then, that's what happens. He wants 80%, we are pretty much there right now. The title says its currently half (50%), which is just nonsense.
The developers understand the numbers and don't need people making bad faith statements that directly contradict what people are asking for to not tweak the numbers to something reasonable. They never just take our words at numbers.
The OP is specifically asking for HAs to be closer to, but underneath, LA weaving in terms of effectiveness. Sure we can say this is not a good example because xyz, but it's bad faith when we argue that he is asking for something he explicitly states he doesn't want to see: which is HA being pushed above LA.
As long as LA remains the meta, HA can be made stronger. And should be, because as yourself point out it lowers the gap between ceiling and floor. Which is what OP wants to accomplish even if his examples are bad.
We can trust the devs not to just blindly follow one guy's youtube video.
I honestly have no idea what we are even arguing about. We are saying the same thing. My entire point is that OP wants a buff based on an assumption. That assumption is blatantly false. That's all I got.
My point is that the OP wants a buff based off more than a single stat, and him getting a single stat wrong did not change the substance of his argument into a completely different argument.
From what I can tell, OP wants his HA attack rotation to be 80% of what he is seeing on youtube, which is a handful of people pulling 110k+ with a perfect LA build. If ZOS made that happen, people pulling 110k with a LA rotation would be pulling like 130k with a HA rotation. LOL.
Okay let me put it another way.
A teacher asks a student to do the simple math problem 2+2 on a chalkboard and show his work.
The student writes 2+2=4 because I ate 4 M&Ms out of my bag.
What you're asserting is that because the student has an error "I ate M&Ms" that not only has the student now written 2+2=5, but that teacher is a total moron who will actually teach everyone that 2+2=5.
The student's reasoning is flawed, but the conclusion is still correct. 2+2=4. And we can trust the teacher not to go around telling everyone that it's 5.
You're not wrong about the reasoning being flawed, but an error in reasoning does not automatically mean someone's conclusion is different or that anyone else is beholden to it
OP undoubtedly has a flaw in his reasoning, just factually. But it doesn't mean his conclusion is now that HA should be higher than LA and he wants to destory end game. He wants HA to be more than they are now but less than LA, and he wants to maintain LA as the endgame skill rather than destorying it.
This is not an invalid conclusion even though his reasoning is flawed. It is possible to have solid reasoning but a bad conclusion and vice versa.Edited by spartaxoxo on December 3, 2021 6:07PM0 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »I realize that OP is not suggesting raising HAs above LAs. But if you make changes based on blatantly false assumptions then, that's what happens. He wants 80%, we are pretty much there right now. The title says its currently half (50%), which is just nonsense.
The developers understand the numbers and don't need people making bad faith statements that directly contradict what people are asking for to not tweak the numbers to something reasonable. They never just take our words at numbers.
The OP is specifically asking for HAs to be closer to, but underneath, LA weaving in terms of effectiveness. Sure we can say this is not a good example because xyz, but it's bad faith when we argue that he is asking for something he explicitly states he doesn't want to see: which is HA being pushed above LA.
As long as LA remains the meta, HA can be made stronger. And should be, because as yourself point out it lowers the gap between ceiling and floor. Which is what OP wants to accomplish even if his examples are bad.
We can trust the devs not to just blindly follow one guy's youtube video.
I honestly have no idea what we are even arguing about. We are saying the same thing. My entire point is that OP wants a buff based on an assumption. That assumption is blatantly false. That's all I got.
My point is that the OP wants a buff based off more than a single stat, and him getting a single stat wrong did not change the substance of his argument into a completely different argument.
From what I can tell, OP wants his HA attack rotation to be 80% of what he is seeing on youtube, which is a handful of people pulling 110k+ with a perfect LA build. If ZOS made that happen, people pulling 110k with a LA rotation would be pulling like 130k with a HA rotation. LOL.
Okay let me put it another way.
A teacher asks a student to do the simple math problem 2+2 on a chalkboard and show his work.
The student writes 2+2=4 because I ate 4 M&Ms out of my bag.
What you're asserting is that because the student has an error "I ate M&Ms" that not only has the student now written 2+2=5, but that teacher is a total moron who will actually teach everyone that 2+2=5.
The student's reasoning is flawed, but the conclusion is still correct. 2+2=4. And we can trust the teacher not to go around telling everyone that it's 5.
You're not wrong about the reasoning being flawed, but an error in reasoning does not automatically mean someone's conclusion is different or that anyone else is beholden to it
OP undoubtedly has a flaw in his reasoning, just factually. But it doesn't mean his conclusion is now that HA should be higher than LA and he wants to destory end game. He wants HA to be more than they are now but less than LA, and he wants to maintain LA as the endgame skill rather than destorying it.
This is not an invalid premise even though his reasoning is flawed. It is possible to have solid reasoning but a bad conclusion and vice versa.
I honestly have no Idea what I just read.
OP claims that HA builds only do 50% of the damage of LA builds. (Title)
He then says he wants HA builds to be able to do 80% of the damage of LA builds. (Opening Paragraph of OP).
I am pointing out that to compare the damage differential, you need someone of the same skill doing both tests, because I know that the 50% number is simply incorrect.
@MudcrabAttack does us the favor of showing what someone capable of pulling 110k with a LA build can do with various forms of a HA build. Basically, showing that we are already in the 80% land. In other words, OP wants something that already exists.
I also point out that if we make it so someone like OP, who presumably is pulling roughly 55k with his HA build based on his premise, can all of a sudden pull in the 85-90k (30-35k buff), we would have a lot of issues, because now the mudcrabs of the world are going to be pulling 125-130k with a HA build. The floor is now above the ceiling.
Here is an analogy for you: I hit my 3 wood 225 yards. Tiger Woods hits his Driver 330 yards. I then say, 3 woods only go 68% as far as Drivers (false). Apples to Oranges. Not a fair comparison.Edited by Oreyn_Bearclaw on December 3, 2021 6:20PM3