PVE Heavy Attack Builds Produce half the DPS

sonwon.1_ESO

colossalvoids wrote: »

sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »

AshfieldLad wrote: »

I tanked vlom HM last night with a normal plar and a HA sorc as my 2 dds, we completed no problem. Fail to see how it locks anyone out. Yes you won’t get in a sweaty trial group, but the content can still be done if you find the right people.

I thought trials were part of the content.

Pretty sure "sweaty" meant scorepushing ones or focused on maximum optimisation.

However many trial raid groups limit members by dps numbers and low dps will make some trials incompletable.

Amottica

sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »

AshfieldLad wrote: »

I tanked vlom HM last night with a normal plar and a HA sorc as my 2 dds, we completed no problem. Fail to see how it locks anyone out. Yes you won’t get in a sweaty trial group, but the content can still be done if you find the right people.

I thought trials were part of the content.

They probably can get into a trial group with that build but it would be a trail group that reflects what they can provide to the group.

A build that uses almost twice the skill per minute should do almost twice the damage of a HA build. That is the difference between a LA and HA build.

kojou

I wouldn't mind if they reduced the charge time of staff heavy attacks. At least they removed the damage dip from a "medium" attack...

sonwon.1_ESO

Amottica wrote: »

sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »

AshfieldLad wrote: »

I tanked vlom HM last night with a normal plar and a HA sorc as my 2 dds, we completed no problem. Fail to see how it locks anyone out. Yes you won’t get in a sweaty trial group, but the content can still be done if you find the right people.

I thought trials were part of the content.

They probably can get into a trial group with that build but it would be a trail group that reflects what they can provide to the group.

A build that uses almost twice the skill per minute should do almost twice the damage of a HA build. That is the difference between a LA and HA build.

I doubt all classes could join in a trial using that build since it is class dependant.

sonwon.1_ESO

And I would like to see the whole parse for that build.

Iron_Warrior

I'm all for adding new playstyles, i'm just tired of seeing everyone play the same, and by playstyle i don't mean a "good enough" thing. They should provide close to same amount of dps with different weakneses. Not just HA attack builds, i would take anything at this point, whether it's HA build, bash build, unarmed build,combo build, pulling out a lute and smashing enemies build, literally ANYTHING!

after seeing the comments i saw some good parses with HA builds, but one thing that didn't see anybody mention is the aoe damage. The gap between them for aoe damage is even higher because with a la build you can spam your aoe abilities faster but it's not the same story with ha. Now you may say they should drop ha for group fights but i disagree, for example in dungeons more than 50% of the time you are fighting a pack of mobs, even a lot of bosses summon mobs and you need aoe damage too. At that point you can't call it a playstyle anymore if you have to drop it more than half the time, meanwhile la build will stick to la 95% of the time and that 5% is when somehow they got out of resources.

So here is my idea of buffing ha attack builds, yes i know it might be over/under powered because i just thinked about it for 2 minutes. Add cleave to heavy attacks of all weapons, increase their damage, but when you are using a fully charged heavy attack you are slowed by 50% (or maybe make a timer for it, for example you will get a 2s slow on you after a ha). So that way with a ha build you have better sustain but at the cost of your mobility and you will be at greater risk.

colossalvoids

sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »

AshfieldLad wrote: »

I tanked vlom HM last night with a normal plar and a HA sorc as my 2 dds, we completed no problem. Fail to see how it locks anyone out. Yes you won’t get in a sweaty trial group, but the content can still be done if you find the right people.

I thought trials were part of the content.

Pretty sure "sweaty" meant scorepushing ones or focused on maximum optimisation.

However many trial raid groups limit members by dps numbers and low dps will make some trials incompletable.

Many groups have their narrow paths and that's their choice. There are a lot of groups, everyone can form one also. Dps is just an obvious part and generally people playing heavy attack builds aren't applying to guilds looking for necro/NB DDS with good dlc hm logs from RG or CR. In less sweaty ones pulling your weight is enough, meaning not being worse than every single group member, but even that can not be an issue if person is pleasant to play with, we had this situations before at times, it's fine.

Succuby

HA already gives less resources and slow down whyle cast.

Now some builds may be even use stam and mana skills to make it cheaper that so much sustain is not needed.

It was huge buff to LA gameplay.

Why it was buffed as much that now HA builds do the same dps on HA rotation as LA builds do ?

Can we at least do more on HA builds than LA builds do in HA rotation may be ?

HA builds can not LA effectivly. It is one more big nerf to us.

That show that only LA gamestyle is promoted. And if people do not want LA what than ? People can use only LA and do not use HA at all, with no lose in dps.

It is not good too. They even do not use both.

People who dislike HA can remove it from rotation, but people who dislike LA can not. It is wrong. To much lose in DPS.

Amottica

sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »

AshfieldLad wrote: »

I tanked vlom HM last night with a normal plar and a HA sorc as my 2 dds, we completed no problem. Fail to see how it locks anyone out. Yes you won’t get in a sweaty trial group, but the content can still be done if you find the right people.

I thought trials were part of the content.

They probably can get into a trial group with that build but it would be a trail group that reflects what they can provide to the group.

A build that uses almost twice the skill per minute should do almost twice the damage of a HA build. That is the difference between a LA and HA build.

I doubt all classes could join in a trial using that build since it is class dependant.

People that choose to have really bad builds should not expect to be in a trial group. That has nothing to do with the difference between a HA and LA build, but just someone making bad decisions.

AshfieldLad

sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »

AshfieldLad wrote: »

I tanked vlom HM last night with a normal plar and a HA sorc as my 2 dds, we completed no problem. Fail to see how it locks anyone out. Yes you won’t get in a sweaty trial group, but the content can still be done if you find the right people.

I thought trials were part of the content.

Pretty sure "sweaty" meant scorepushing ones or focused on maximum optimisation.

However many trial raid groups limit members by dps numbers and low dps will make some trials incompletable.

Yes that is what I meant, many trial groups do but that can also lock you out on a LA build if you can’t weave well enough/don’t do rotations well. I am in a guild on Xbox eu(probably the least populated server) and you would be able to run vet trials for completes with 50/55k with us, ok you won’t get into HM trials with that but you would deffo get completes. There must be people out there who would be willing to have you in their team!

Succuby

Amottica wrote: »

sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »

AshfieldLad wrote: »

I tanked vlom HM last night with a normal plar and a HA sorc as my 2 dds, we completed no problem. Fail to see how it locks anyone out. Yes you won’t get in a sweaty trial group, but the content can still be done if you find the right people.

I thought trials were part of the content.

They probably can get into a trial group with that build but it would be a trail group that reflects what they can provide to the group.

A build that uses almost twice the skill per minute should do almost twice the damage of a HA build. That is the difference between a LA and HA build.

I doubt all classes could join in a trial using that build since it is class dependant.

People that choose to have really bad builds should not expect to be in a trial group. That has nothing to do with the difference between a HA and LA build, but just someone making bad decisions.

Ok, when ZOS wanted change HA and LA game play HA players understand it will not be good for other players. But in same situation LA players say about bad sets ?

Will you all start HA if update makes it nesessary ? Or may be 3 bash per second ?

By the way funny build - try it

1,5 times needs more action.

https://youtu.be/ULvk_CDr9xI

Amottica

.

Succuby wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »

AshfieldLad wrote: »

I tanked vlom HM last night with a normal plar and a HA sorc as my 2 dds, we completed no problem. Fail to see how it locks anyone out. Yes you won’t get in a sweaty trial group, but the content can still be done if you find the right people.

I thought trials were part of the content.

They probably can get into a trial group with that build but it would be a trail group that reflects what they can provide to the group.

A build that uses almost twice the skill per minute should do almost twice the damage of a HA build. That is the difference between a LA and HA build.

I doubt all classes could join in a trial using that build since it is class dependant.

People that choose to have really bad builds should not expect to be in a trial group. That has nothing to do with the difference between a HA and LA build, but just someone making bad decisions.

Ok, when ZOS wanted change HA and LA game play HA players understand it will not be good for other players. But in same situation LA players say about bad sets ?

Will you all start HA if update makes it nesessary ? Or may be 3 bash per second ?

By the way funny build - try it

1,5 times needs more action.

This seems to just be a hypothetical question.

It would require making basic attacks, specifically the HA, more powerful than the use of skills for doing damage for a HA build to become necessary. That is a simple mathematical fact since an HA takes about the same time to execute as a skill due to the use of a skill is tied to the GCD. The other reason a HA build would be necessary is if sustain was made to be so bad we had to do a heavy attack between skills just to maintain our resources which would be a very poor design.

As such there is no reason to expect this to happen.

Succuby

Amottica wrote: »

.

Succuby wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »

AshfieldLad wrote: »

I tanked vlom HM last night with a normal plar and a HA sorc as my 2 dds, we completed no problem. Fail to see how it locks anyone out. Yes you won’t get in a sweaty trial group, but the content can still be done if you find the right people.

I thought trials were part of the content.

They probably can get into a trial group with that build but it would be a trail group that reflects what they can provide to the group.

A build that uses almost twice the skill per minute should do almost twice the damage of a HA build. That is the difference between a LA and HA build.

I doubt all classes could join in a trial using that build since it is class dependant.

People that choose to have really bad builds should not expect to be in a trial group. That has nothing to do with the difference between a HA and LA build, but just someone making bad decisions.

Ok, when ZOS wanted change HA and LA game play HA players understand it will not be good for other players. But in same situation LA players say about bad sets ?

Will you all start HA if update makes it nesessary ? Or may be 3 bash per second ?

By the way funny build - try it

1,5 times needs more action.

This seems to just be a hypothetical question.

It would require making basic attacks, specifically the HA, more powerful than the use of skills for doing damage for a HA build to become necessary. That is a simple mathematical fact since an HA takes about the same time to execute as a skill due to the use of a skill is tied to the GCD. The other reason a HA build would be necessary is if sustain was made to be so bad we had to do a heavy attack between skills just to maintain our resources which would be a very poor design.

As such there is no reason to expect this to happen.

Next time when ZOS decide rework HA and LA system i will only say do it ! With even do not care what will happen.

Becouse now HA with LA sets that do the same or even more damage HA rotation do with HA sets - is much more bad design for me.

And there is a lot of people already who do not like current gameplay.

I hope it change the better way possible some day.

And to say trully game do not really need LA: the concept LA do no dps restore resources and HA do big damage may be was much better.

ZOS_Lunar

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Thank you for your understanding.

Eiregirl

Iron_Warrior wrote: »

I'm all for adding new playstyles, i'm just tired of seeing everyone play the same, and by playstyle i don't mean a "good enough" thing. They should provide close to same amount of dps with different weakneses. Not just HA attack builds, i would take anything at this point, whether it's HA build, bash build, unarmed build,combo build, pulling out a lute and smashing enemies build, literally ANYTHING!

after seeing the comments i saw some good parses with HA builds, but one thing that didn't see anybody mention is the aoe damage. The gap between them for aoe damage is even higher because with a la build you can spam your aoe abilities faster but it's not the same story with ha. Now you may say they should drop ha for group fights but i disagree, for example in dungeons more than 50% of the time you are fighting a pack of mobs, even a lot of bosses summon mobs and you need aoe damage too. At that point you can't call it a playstyle anymore if you have to drop it more than half the time, meanwhile la build will stick to la 95% of the time and that 5% is when somehow they got out of resources.

So here is my idea of buffing ha attack builds, yes i know it might be over/under powered because i just thinked about it for 2 minutes. Add cleave to heavy attacks of all weapons, increase their damage, but when you are using a fully charged heavy attack you are slowed by 50% (or maybe make a timer for it, for example you will get a 2s slow on you after a ha). So that way with a ha build you have better sustain but at the cost of your mobility and you will be at greater risk.

While performing the heavy attack my movement speed is already slowed down so anyone wanting to perform a fully charged heavy attack is already at a greater risk. On every character I play whether LA or HA builds I will lose damage when I have to move quickly to avoid taking damage and that is true for everyone.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Succuby wrote: »

In the same sets you can do 110 k dps on LA and only 90- on HA very big DPS difference !

For some HA sets you only can do less than 90 on HA but will not make even 100 on LA.

It is unbalanced - to low DPS output for HA and HA sets.

Need more DPS on it. That is all it is about.

Some people can. Guessing 98% of the people on this thread cannot. I guarantee you that if you ask those that can (Not to brag but, I am one of them so I do have some insight here), you will get the same response. HA builds are much easier to perform on several levels. Lower APMs overall, Easier to manage skills dynamically (more time between skills), zero sustain issues. Therefore, there should be doing less damage.

The elephant in the room is that we have a lot of people that are ether new to parsing or just really haven't put the effort in to perfect it. They go to YouTube, see a 110k parse from a very skilled DPS. They then try a mangled version of a heavy attack build, pull 40-50k and cry foul.

You simply can't compare an A+ LA rotation with a C- Heavy attack rotation and draw any meaningful conclusions.

spartaxoxo

Sniper rifles are harder to use than shotguns or machine guns, but obviously the game shouldn't be won at weapon select.

Games should be balanced to ensure that the most skilled option is better, but not so much better you basically get content all to yourself. The game's population for endgame content isn't healthy, and more and more people are calling for nerfs to content that shouldn't be nerfed because a lot of the issue is that the gap is blatantly too wide between top and middle.

Succuby

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Sniper rifles are harder to use than shotguns or machine guns, but obviously the game shouldn't be won at weapon select.

Games should be balanced to ensure that the most skilled option is better, but not so much better you basically get content all to yourself. The game's population for endgame content isn't healthy, and more and more people are calling for nerfs to content that shouldn't be nerfed because a lot of the issue is that the gap is blatantly too wide between top and middle.

Spell crafting may be can help, but we do not have it, and ... may be will not have ever

Amottica

Succuby wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

.

Succuby wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »

AshfieldLad wrote: »

I tanked vlom HM last night with a normal plar and a HA sorc as my 2 dds, we completed no problem. Fail to see how it locks anyone out. Yes you won’t get in a sweaty trial group, but the content can still be done if you find the right people.

I thought trials were part of the content.

They probably can get into a trial group with that build but it would be a trail group that reflects what they can provide to the group.

A build that uses almost twice the skill per minute should do almost twice the damage of a HA build. That is the difference between a LA and HA build.

I doubt all classes could join in a trial using that build since it is class dependant.

People that choose to have really bad builds should not expect to be in a trial group. That has nothing to do with the difference between a HA and LA build, but just someone making bad decisions.

Ok, when ZOS wanted change HA and LA game play HA players understand it will not be good for other players. But in same situation LA players say about bad sets ?

Will you all start HA if update makes it nesessary ? Or may be 3 bash per second ?

By the way funny build - try it

1,5 times needs more action.

This seems to just be a hypothetical question.

It would require making basic attacks, specifically the HA, more powerful than the use of skills for doing damage for a HA build to become necessary. That is a simple mathematical fact since an HA takes about the same time to execute as a skill due to the use of a skill is tied to the GCD. The other reason a HA build would be necessary is if sustain was made to be so bad we had to do a heavy attack between skills just to maintain our resources which would be a very poor design.

As such there is no reason to expect this to happen.

Next time when ZOS decide rework HA and LA system i will only say do it ! With even do not care what will happen.

Becouse now HA with LA sets that do the same or even more damage HA rotation do with HA sets - is much more bad design for me.

And there is a lot of people already who do not like current gameplay.

I hope it change the better way possible some day.

And to say trully game do not really need LA: the concept LA do no dps restore resources and HA do big damage may be was much better.

Zenimax considered, and tested, a change to the basic attacks during an off-cycle PTS session. The part of the test concerning basic attacks was to have basic attack damage scale with how long they were charged which would reduce the damage of the light attack and in turn make heavy attacks do more damage than LAs.

After seeing the results of the test on the PTS, including videos, and reading player feedback they abandoned this idea.

Even then, a light attack build would still execute almost twice as many skills as a heavy attack build. That is why a heavy attack build will never do near as much damage as a LA or even a medium attack build. It comes down to simple math. No one needs to do a LA weave. A medium weave is sufficient and easier to execute for players not interested in spending the time to refine their gameplay. It should also perform better than a HA build.

Iron_Warrior

Eiregirl wrote: »

While performing the heavy attack my movement speed is already slowed down so anyone wanting to perform a fully charged heavy attack is already at a greater risk. On every character I play whether LA or HA builds I will lose damage when I have to move quickly to avoid taking damage and that is true for everyone.

Oh yes you are right, i only play with melee weapons so i forgot the ranged ones will slow you. But basically my point was that ha build should deal as much as damage as la builds both on aoe and single target. not 80%, 70% or other numbers that mentioned. But it should have a disadvatage because you will basically get unlimited sustain with it so i thought mobility disadvantage is a good way to balance it. So maybe they could do it like this, while doing a fully charged heavy attack you will get slowed by 50%, ranged ha slow will stay the same but you will get a 1sec slow on top of it after the ha to balance the survivability between melee and ranged. Again this is just an idea, it can change and changes should not be made based on a 5 minute idea.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Succuby wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Sniper rifles are harder to use than shotguns or machine guns, but obviously the game shouldn't be won at weapon select.

Games should be balanced to ensure that the most skilled option is better, but not so much better you basically get content all to yourself. The game's population for endgame content isn't healthy, and more and more people are calling for nerfs to content that shouldn't be nerfed because a lot of the issue is that the gap is blatantly too wide between top and middle.

Spell crafting may be can help, but we do not have it, and ... may be will not have ever

I am sorry, but the notion spell crafting would help balance is borderline absurd. It would be one more thing where people at the top would crunch the numbers, figure out what is best, and anything else would be sub optimal. It would raise the ceiling and anything off meta would just be that much further behind. Spell crafting is wonderful in single player titles, but it would be an absolute nightmare to balance in an MMO.

LashanW

Succuby wrote: »

You will not do the same LA dps with HA sets, but now you can do the same DPS on HA rotation with overpowered LA sets. That is what i talking about.

What sets do you mean "overpowered LA sets"? Sets like Relequen? They work with heavy attacks too. A lot of such sets and skills work for both LAs and HAs.

Fun fact: single fully charged lightning staff heavy attack = 4 Relequen stacks. or 4 Kinras stacks

Vaoh

Imo they need to reverse the 40% light attack buff that happened a long time ago. Also maybe they could buff a set like Undaunted Infiltrator since that‘s the only reason players used it anyway:

Undaunted Infiltrator (Live)
(2 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Stamina
(3 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Stamina
(4 items) Adds 657 Critical Chance
(5 items) When you use an ability that costs Magicka while in combat, you increase the damage of your Light and Heavy Attacks by 1685 for 10 seconds.

Undaunted Infiltrator (Buffed)
(2 items) Adds 129 Weapon and Spell Damage
(3 items) Adds 129 Weapon and Spell Damage
(4 items) Adds 657 Critical Chance
(5 items) When you use an ability that costs Magicka while in combat, you increase the damage of your Light and Heavy Attacks by 1685 for 10 seconds. When you use a fully charged heavy attack, your next fully charged heavy attack used in 10 seconds deals 100% more damage, but restores only half the amount of Magicka or Stamina.

LA weaving shouldn’t change but you may as well let the heavy attack spammers hit harder since it still won’t be close anyway (nor should it).

Oreyn_Bearclaw

LashanW wrote: »

Succuby wrote: »

You will not do the same LA dps with HA sets, but now you can do the same DPS on HA rotation with overpowered LA sets. That is what i talking about.

What sets do you mean "overpowered LA sets"? Sets like Relequen? They work with heavy attacks too. A lot of such sets and skills work for both LAs and HAs.

Fun fact: single fully charged lightning staff heavy attack = 4 Relequen stacks. or 4 Kinras stacks

I would like to see an exhaustive list of sets that only affect light attacks. I don't think its a long list, and might actually be shorter than ones that only affect heavy attacks.

Most DPS sets that are based on weapon attacks work with both. Even skills like merciless resolve get double stacks for a heavy.

End of the day, you would have to completely overhaul the light and heavy attack system to close this gap in a meaningful way, while still rewarding skilled gameplay. They tried that a little while back, it didn't go well. It didnt make it off the PTS.

The reality is that if you compare a perfectly executed HA rotation with a perfectly executed LA rotation, the gap is MUCH closer than this thread would have you believe. The latter is much more difficult, and it rewards more DPS accordingly. The former is still perfectly viable for the vast majority of activities, save PVE leaderboards.

Ascarl

perfiction wrote: »

sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »

However half the damage per second output for a heavy attack build is not balanced.

Why not? HA builds require way less actions per minute (and skill), it's completely balanced that they deal less damage overall.

IMHO the game should be centered about the right choice of clicks and not the sheer number of clicks per minute.

MudcrabAttack

sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »

Succuby wrote: »

I think it is possible to make around 70k with only HA on atro, but i dislike that sets like inphelible aether is HA only set, undaunted infiltrator - ha set too.

But how much is possible to do makeing LA on it ? Small numbers. The same for HA it do not give good damage output. Relequin may be can give better output and it is LA set, that even on HA gives good numbers.

Inphelible aether may be need a little more love ?

https://youtu.be/DgAyU5Eyz-I

Plus to all this undaunted infiltrator is now prebaff set - it is not comfortable to activate it. For me is a little strange that in some Kinrass + relequin may be is possible to make more HA + LA dps than on HA + LA designed sets.

Aether is too weak in current reality It is good set but it need better numbers or its numbers add to LA too as example.

Another LA HA hybrid video.

Hmm, 70k dps on pure HA, I would like to see that video.

I'm not quite sure what you're willing to see exactly? A build that do a heavy between every skill he's casting no matter timings, class conditions and just wasting time between each skill right? Or just not casting anything at all with a mouse while recasting dots or using an execute for example? Because heavy attack builds absolutely do use light attacks when necessary (heavy is just used instead of a spammable, usually buffed by a degeneration skill), if that's not just people having no idea what they're doing or a simple 1-2 dots down and spam ha builds.

When you're asking for a good parse it's automatically includes knowledge and good execution, if you want pure ha with all the downtimes or a one bar build with for example pets to be competitive it's basically as asking why 1h sword build without any other weapon equipped underperforming, the answer is already here.

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

Heavy attack builds only doing 50%????

Nah more like 85%+ if you Dual Wield

This is a stamina build that's typically focused on direct damage, I made no change other than going with fewer spammables and using heavy attacks while on the front bar.




A DOT-focused heavy attack build should do way better dps. Normally I'd hit 109k with pure light attack weaving on this Stamblade.

If you want to do this with a bow build forget it, bow heavy attacks are absolutely horrible, they give you gray hair from making you wait too long. I haven't tried it with a fire staff, but it would probably be awful too

Another LA HA hybrid parse.

Please present a parse with zero LAs.

Or just don't do weapon attacks at all on the back bar like the last poster mentioned

Looks interesting, do you have a video to share?

Also, can you show us all of the parse, use the scrollbars?

I was on the PTS to see what pillar of nirn set was like, but I think I forgot to save the parse. The lower parts of the parse are 1kdps killers blade, 1kdps poison and fire glyph damage, 2kdps assassins scourge, 2kdps burning/ poisoned/ hemorrhage status effects that are relatively high thanks to the charged weapon.

No video, but all I did was hold down the heavy attack button for 4 minutes while cycling through the skills.

Rotation was Stampede / Carve / Relentless Focus or ultimate / Twisting Path / Barbed Trap or Dark Shade (depending on which needs a refresh) then repeat

Remember this is a Nightblade, maybe the worst possible choice for a heavy attack build. The class strength is in killers blade execute damage, which should be spammed as fast as possible during the last 25% health but I only used it 6 times. The dps was decent mostly because ZOS buffed charged weapon trait (good for dual wield, not great for two hand weapons), maelstrom 2H (3kdps higher), twisting path (now 9kdps for stamblade), proc sets (they crit now), carve (triple stacking bleed) and stampede (big nasty AOE direct damage hit). A couple of patches ago this would have been horribly bad dps if I tried all the same exact stuff.

katorga

Ironically, since deadlands, my light attacks sometimes lock and turn into repeated heavy attacks that I cannot cancel out of, resulting lots of "learn to weave, noob" comments.

HA builds do enough dps to complete content, but won't get you to the leaderboards. If you are farming trails, the lower dps means longer runs, more mechanics and worse scores.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »

Succuby wrote: »

I think it is possible to make around 70k with only HA on atro, but i dislike that sets like inphelible aether is HA only set, undaunted infiltrator - ha set too.

But how much is possible to do makeing LA on it ? Small numbers. The same for HA it do not give good damage output. Relequin may be can give better output and it is LA set, that even on HA gives good numbers.

Inphelible aether may be need a little more love ?

https://youtu.be/DgAyU5Eyz-I

Plus to all this undaunted infiltrator is now prebaff set - it is not comfortable to activate it. For me is a little strange that in some Kinrass + relequin may be is possible to make more HA + LA dps than on HA + LA designed sets.

Aether is too weak in current reality It is good set but it need better numbers or its numbers add to LA too as example.

Another LA HA hybrid video.

Hmm, 70k dps on pure HA, I would like to see that video.

I'm not quite sure what you're willing to see exactly? A build that do a heavy between every skill he's casting no matter timings, class conditions and just wasting time between each skill right? Or just not casting anything at all with a mouse while recasting dots or using an execute for example? Because heavy attack builds absolutely do use light attacks when necessary (heavy is just used instead of a spammable, usually buffed by a degeneration skill), if that's not just people having no idea what they're doing or a simple 1-2 dots down and spam ha builds.

When you're asking for a good parse it's automatically includes knowledge and good execution, if you want pure ha with all the downtimes or a one bar build with for example pets to be competitive it's basically as asking why 1h sword build without any other weapon equipped underperforming, the answer is already here.

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

Heavy attack builds only doing 50%????

Nah more like 85%+ if you Dual Wield

This is a stamina build that's typically focused on direct damage, I made no change other than going with fewer spammables and using heavy attacks while on the front bar.




A DOT-focused heavy attack build should do way better dps. Normally I'd hit 109k with pure light attack weaving on this Stamblade.

If you want to do this with a bow build forget it, bow heavy attacks are absolutely horrible, they give you gray hair from making you wait too long. I haven't tried it with a fire staff, but it would probably be awful too

Another LA HA hybrid parse.

Please present a parse with zero LAs.

Or just don't do weapon attacks at all on the back bar like the last poster mentioned

Looks interesting, do you have a video to share?

Also, can you show us all of the parse, use the scrollbars?

I was on the PTS to see what pillar of nirn set was like, but I think I forgot to save the parse. The lower parts of the parse are 1kdps killers blade, 1kdps poison and fire glyph damage, 2kdps assassins scourge, 2kdps burning/ poisoned/ hemorrhage status effects that are relatively high thanks to the charged weapon.

No video, but all I did was hold down the heavy attack button for 4 minutes while cycling through the skills.

Rotation was Stampede / Carve / Relentless Focus or ultimate / Twisting Path / Barbed Trap or Dark Shade (depending on which needs a refresh) then repeat

Remember this is a Nightblade, maybe the worst possible choice for a heavy attack build. The class strength is in killers blade execute damage, which should be spammed as fast as possible during the last 25% health but I only used it 6 times. The dps was decent mostly because ZOS buffed charged weapon trait (good for dual wield, not great for two hand weapons), maelstrom 2H (3kdps higher), twisting path (now 9kdps for stamblade), proc sets (they crit now), carve (triple stacking bleed) and stampede (big nasty AOE direct damage hit). A couple of patches ago this would have been horribly bad dps if I tried all the same exact stuff.

And that right there is why HA rotations are trivial in the current combat system. You can basically put a paperweight over your LMB and press a skill every 2.5-3.0 seconds. On what planet should that give the same damage as a 120+ APM rotation requiring very precise timing. Sounds like a planet where everyone gets a trophy before playing the game if you ask me.

Right now we have like a 20% DPS difference. Seems about right.

Eiregirl

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

LashanW wrote: »

Succuby wrote: »

You will not do the same LA dps with HA sets, but now you can do the same DPS on HA rotation with overpowered LA sets. That is what i talking about.

What sets do you mean "overpowered LA sets"? Sets like Relequen? They work with heavy attacks too. A lot of such sets and skills work for both LAs and HAs.

Fun fact: single fully charged lightning staff heavy attack = 4 Relequen stacks. or 4 Kinras stacks

I would like to see an exhaustive list of sets that only affect light attacks. I don't think its a long list, and might actually be shorter than ones that only affect heavy attacks.

Most DPS sets that are based on weapon attacks work with both. Even skills like merciless resolve get double stacks for a heavy.

End of the day, you would have to completely overhaul the light and heavy attack system to close this gap in a meaningful way, while still rewarding skilled gameplay. They tried that a little while back, it didn't go well. It didnt make it off the PTS.

The reality is that if you compare a perfectly executed HA rotation with a perfectly executed LA rotation, the gap is MUCH closer than this thread would have you believe. The latter is much more difficult, and it rewards more DPS accordingly. The former is still perfectly viable for the vast majority of activities, save PVE leaderboards.

Bear I suspect you already know this because I know you are a smart cookie.
The list that affects light attacks is WAY shorter than the list that affects heavy attacks. For my pure HA builds I have tested most if not all of them and the same for my LA builds and I do mean WAY WAY shorter. There are actually about 5 times more sets that affect heavy attacks than there are sets that affect light attacks and some of the ones that affect light attacks also affect heavy attacks.

Succuby

Vaoh wrote: »

Imo they need to reverse the 40% light attack buff that happened a long time ago. Also maybe they could buff a set like Undaunted Infiltrator since that‘s the only reason players used it anyway:

Undaunted Infiltrator (Live)
(2 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Stamina
(3 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Stamina
(4 items) Adds 657 Critical Chance
(5 items) When you use an ability that costs Magicka while in combat, you increase the damage of your Light and Heavy Attacks by 1685 for 10 seconds.

Undaunted Infiltrator (Buffed)
(2 items) Adds 129 Weapon and Spell Damage
(3 items) Adds 129 Weapon and Spell Damage
(4 items) Adds 657 Critical Chance
(5 items) When you use an ability that costs Magicka while in combat, you increase the damage of your Light and Heavy Attacks by 1685 for 10 seconds. When you use a fully charged heavy attack, your next fully charged heavy attack used in 10 seconds deals 100% more damage, but restores only half the amount of Magicka or Stamina.

LA weaving shouldn’t change but you may as well let the heavy attack spammers hit harder since it still won’t be close anyway (nor should it).

It is better to make it like new light set, it even can be quite good, like nobble dualist 2 as example. 1685 value is to small for price if 1/2 resources gain.

Infiltrator can be used as stamina HA build, so it will not even give good numbers to such builds. But as new set it may be even be good.

With one more Add - if HA becomes like flamer and do fire damage i would say - Give me that - I want it so much !!!

))

I even buy dlc for that, to get such set.

But with out all this, it is not any better than sets already exists