My biggest Issue with the game - How the lack of progression affected my experience

Celephantsylvius_Bornasfinmo · August 2021

SilverBride wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Making a lot of players stronger then buffing overland enemies seems like a lot of trouble when they could just introduce a debuff for the few players who find overland too easy.

but that's the point, their goal is to "bring up the floor". it has been for a long time.
The things i've noticed over the last few updates all work towards this goal, and connecting the dots, once the floor rises, it's probably time to also bring up the lowest tier of content to match.

think of it this way. you've got 4 tiers of content each with their levels of difficulty. If you can buff the easiest tier of players without changing anything about how they play the game then you can merge the lowest tier of content into the next tier making more content enjoyable for more people without nerfing anyone.
it's a win win win.

What about players new to ESO who are still learning about how the game works? Rather than raising their floor it would make more sense to lower the ceiling of the veteran players.

I don't really see how adding companions/healing unique mythicals etc is raising the floor. It feels more like they are adding walls around the old play style, but that's another story I suppose.

I think some people may be right in the subject post; the thrill may have died down for our older ambitions of raiding, raiding, raiding and more raiding. It was fun, but very time consuming too.

https://youtu.be/SgXSomPE_FY

LeonAkando · August 2021

I think it's always fascinating how the forums show such a different side of the playerbase than the normal game would.

Most of the people I interact with enjoy and play ESO BECAUSE it doesn't have progression in the form of just constantly getting more powerful. The fact that progression is tied to different metrics makes it more rewarding.

These are usually people from other games who are burned by working for 6 months to achieve something only for it to be meaningless the next patch. Who are burned by having to treat their video games as a full time job to remain competitive with the constant ever increasing power increase.

The "Power Treadmill" drives away so many players it seems, yet there's a good section of forum goers who would openly advocate for it. I suppose its pointless to theorize what ESO would have been without One Tamriel, but I imagine it would lack any draw from the other power treadmill games.

VaranisArano · August 2021

SilverBride wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Making a lot of players stronger then buffing overland enemies seems like a lot of trouble when they could just introduce a debuff for the few players who find overland too easy.

but that's the point, their goal is to "bring up the floor". it has been for a long time.
The things i've noticed over the last few updates all work towards this goal, and connecting the dots, once the floor rises, it's probably time to also bring up the lowest tier of content to match.

think of it this way. you've got 4 tiers of content each with their levels of difficulty. If you can buff the easiest tier of players without changing anything about how they play the game then you can merge the lowest tier of content into the next tier making more content enjoyable for more people without nerfing anyone.
it's a win win win.

What about players new to ESO who are still learning about how the game works? Rather than raising their floor it would make more sense to lower the ceiling of the veteran players.

ZOS has been trying to do this. And keeps failing, because ultimately, trying to raise the floor for players who fundamentally don't know or don't care about how the game works AND trying to lower the ceiling for players who know very well how the game works just isn't practical.

Consider Light Attacks.

In Summerset, ZOS buffed light attacks to raise the floor. After all, even the newest player can light attack stuff to death, right? Well, in the process, they blew up the previous DPS ceiling, because experienced players who know how to eke out every little bit of DPS quickly realized the now greater importance of light attack weaving. Players who weave properly now do a ton more DPS than players who don't, especially when using sets like Relequen that require light attacks.

That's been repeated time and again. ZOS nerfs something that the top scoring guild raids were using. The theorycrafters go to work and the guild raids adapt. The ceiling stays the same, or players push the ceiling higher.

It's not like you can ask veteran players to turn their brains off, to not adapt to nerfs, stop their theorycrafting and number crunching, and cease trying to score push and get their DPS up higher than it already was. Whatever ZOS does to raise the floor, there's no way to stop veteran players and theorycrafters from using it if it also increases maximum DPS.

Meanwhile, the players who don't know or don't care how the game works usually don't take advantage of the ways ZOS is trying to boost their DPS and raise the floor. How could they? They don't know how to do it, or they don't care for whatever reason.

TwinStripeUK · August 2021

Some people seemed to have misunderstood something: I’m not saying that progression is only related to leveling. That’s not true, however it’s a part of it. Yeah, A significant part of the sense of progression that you get on any MMO comes from leveling, it’s the most immediate source in fact. With build and gear on second, and skill play in third – I’m not talking here about importance, but the order that the player will notice them.

As others have quoted here, the sort of things you've suggested previously have already been tried in the game (right from the outset, in fact) and it actually led to people leaving the game... due to a lack of progression. They would hit a wall trying to get through Craglorn or Wrothgar, have to go back to trying to grind out Veteran Ranks by doing the same content they'd already run, over and over until they just got bored and quit. Champion points made it easier, but the whole 'vertical progression' thing was just a slog. One Tamriel actually saw a big increase in the player count and far better player retention, so it was obviously the right way to go.

And then, I can see you argue that: “but OP, in TESO the gameplay changes with your build not with your class and you have thousands to choose!” I absolutely agree! But, care to tell me, how many of this builds are actually meta viable? And how different they’re from on to another?

The whole 'meta class' thing, was also a massive mistake, previously tried (in fact, IMO, 'metas' are just a bad thing in general for an MMO)

All the tanks were Dragonknights
All the Healers were Templars
All the DPS were Sorcs and Nightblades

The moves they made with the Warden and Necro classes made far more sense (proper Tank, Healing and DPS subclasses) and if anything I'd like to see the OG subclasses reworked to make them operate the same way (especially the whole 'self synergy' thing that Necro's have, because that really makes them stand out and satisfying to play well)

I Actually posted some time ago a suggestion that would really mitigate this problem, that was to divide the destruction staff skill line in 3 skill lines for each elemental. THAT would give more variety of viable builds and gameplay, at least for mag builds. But for stamina i really don't know what to do... maybe, new kinds of weapons?

Nice idea, but horrendous to work into the existing game... however, you could definitely work something like this into the CP system. For Stamina players, proper poison, disease and bleed 'focuses' would probably be a good analog for the magicka elements (they pretty much are now).

It'd be great if they had the kind of 'elemental combo' system that Warframe has, but that would be A LOT of work...

Everest_Lionheart · August 2021

SilverBride wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Making a lot of players stronger then buffing overland enemies seems like a lot of trouble when they could just introduce a debuff for the few players who find overland too easy.

but that's the point, their goal is to "bring up the floor". it has been for a long time.
The things i've noticed over the last few updates all work towards this goal, and connecting the dots, once the floor rises, it's probably time to also bring up the lowest tier of content to match.

think of it this way. you've got 4 tiers of content each with their levels of difficulty. If you can buff the easiest tier of players without changing anything about how they play the game then you can merge the lowest tier of content into the next tier making more content enjoyable for more people without nerfing anyone.
it's a win win win.

What about players new to ESO who are still learning about how the game works? Rather than raising their floor it would make more sense to lower the ceiling of the veteran players.

They tried that twice now and our ceiling got even higher. The are overturning vet content hard modes these days to compensate. All these changes meant to lower the ceiling forced us into certain builds and we hit harder than ever and in some cases overperform the crazy numbers you see people putting up on the dummy. Endgame doesn’t get to play how you want, you play how your are told for the better of the team. What to wear, where to stand, when to interrupt (or not), which enchants for your gear, which skills on which bar for your specific role, whether you need to become vampire to pass a certain HM. It’s all laid out and you execute the plan.

That’s what it is to be at the ceiling. The preparation, optimization and the hours upon hours of reps and fails to accomplish the really hard stuff. We aren’t just walking into vCR3 and getting gryphon heart. Godslayer teams are sometimes months in the making even with the ceiling so high. That high ceiling exposes us to other risks. We are built squishy as all hell to perform at that level. We also get lured into a false sense of “big deeps” and try to push too much when we should throttle back a bit and deal with one more set of mechs. The high ceiling comes with high risk and the highest rewards.

Amottica · August 2021

Vhozek wrote: »

New World is a good example since the mobs there are pretty difficult in comparison yet nobody's crying about it and their numbers are good which leads me to believe it wasn't the difficulty.

Few NW mobs are actually difficult. Yes, some are very powerful for the area they are in but for the most part, a player just has to learn the pattern and most become easy to kill. The only real difference I saw was that it is not attack, attack, attack. It is more attack, dodge, step back, attack, etc.

Regardless, NW is far from an ESO killer. Most of the players that like ESO will not get much out of NW as the PvE is not very well developed. It is what one gets when a game designed for PvP tried to retrofit PvE to attract more players and after they found out the difficulty of preventing griefing with the pure PvP design they set out with.

Vhozek · August 2021

Amottica wrote: »

Vhozek wrote: »

New World is a good example since the mobs there are pretty difficult in comparison yet nobody's crying about it and their numbers are good which leads me to believe it wasn't the difficulty.

Few NW mobs are actually difficult. Yes, some are very powerful for the area they are in but for the most part, a player just has to learn the pattern and most become easy to kill. The only real difference I saw was that it is not attack, attack, attack. It is more attack, dodge, step back, attack, etc.

Regardless, NW is far from an ESO killer. Most of the players that like ESO will not get much out of NW as the PvE is not very well developed. It is what one gets when a game designed for PvP tried to retrofit PvE to attract more players and after they found out the difficulty of preventing griefing with the pure PvP design they set out with.

I think the main problem is caring what casual players think.
Look at Albion Online. I've been playing it recently. It's pretty anti casual and it's full loot PvP. I've grown to really like the game despite being scared to do some of the content because of the PvP. The more you think about how the game is designed, the more it makes sense. Amazon should've just kept going with their initial vision and see that Albion Online doesn't struggle and has been growing despite it being anti casual. That just means that people eventually do give in to play the game despite the hardcore aspect of it. Starting zones are always FULL of people. I think the correct sweetspot is to make a hardcore game and add some convenience elements to it to at least make it feel smooth or enjoyable to play.

Sarannah · August 2021

I never feel like I'm not progressing. Completing zones, and gaining skillpoints is also progress.

If you find something too easy, you should move onto higher content.

LeonAkando wrote: »

I think it's always fascinating how the forums show such a different side of the playerbase than the normal game would.

Most of the people I interact with enjoy and play ESO BECAUSE it doesn't have progression in the form of just constantly getting more powerful. The fact that progression is tied to different metrics makes it more rewarding.

These are usually people from other games who are burned by working for 6 months to achieve something only for it to be meaningless the next patch. Who are burned by having to treat their video games as a full time job to remain competitive with the constant ever increasing power increase.

The "Power Treadmill" drives away so many players it seems, yet there's a good section of forum goers who would openly advocate for it. I suppose its pointless to theorize what ESO would have been without One Tamriel, but I imagine it would lack any draw from the other power treadmill games.

^ Was going to post something like this!
I'm glad ESO does not keep nullifying our efforts by raising the gear and/or levelcap, and forcing us to re-make every character every expansion. This alone makes ESO superior over many other MMO's.

My current progress: Recently I made CP 1800, and have progressed from killing critters to killing mudcrabs!

JTD · August 2021

Sarannah wrote: »

I'm glad ESO does not keep nullifying our efforts by raising the gear and/or levelcap, and forcing us to re-make every character every expansion. This alone makes ESO superior over many other MMO's.

It sure feels great seeing the veteran trial community all running around in Bahsei and Diamond Victory and getting ready to go to Bahsei and MS/Medusa. I think that is boring, I'd rather have some viability and/or class specific sets to be able to use.

Meta will be meta, lets stop pretending that is a bad thing it's part of how games work be it (mmo)rpg or 4x or shooters.

On a more nuanced note:

Isn't it great we're all in our own echo chambers but we all pretend to be correct?

Sarannah · August 2021

JTD wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

I'm glad ESO does not keep nullifying our efforts by raising the gear and/or levelcap, and forcing us to re-make every character every expansion. This alone makes ESO superior over many other MMO's.

It sure feels great seeing the veteran trial community all running around in Bahsei and Diamond Victory and getting ready to go to Bahsei and MS/Medusa. I think that is boring, I'd rather have some viability and/or class specific sets to be able to use.

Meta will be meta, lets stop pretending that is a bad thing it's part of how games work be it (mmo)rpg or 4x or shooters.

On a more nuanced note:

Isn't it great we're all in our own echo chambers but we all pretend to be correct?

I do not run trials... but players choose/pick which sets are meta. Players can choose to use other sets, there will always be something meta regardless of nerfs/buffs! So players need to stop with the min-max mindset, that is the only way to break the meta-mindset. The min-max mindset, where players who use a secondary set(s) are automatically presumed bad. This is more of a problem with the current gaminggeneration, than it is an ESO issue.

For the record, I use sets which complement my playstyle, and which I like using. I love Hatchling's Shell for tanking, and the way I use it, it is the best set ever. I do not use sets considered meta on any of my characters, atleast not because they are meta. (I play singlebar, without barswapping on all my characters)

PS: The issue isn't people 'pretending' to be correct, the issue is everyone is partly correct. And when you add personalities in the mix on what is important, or more important, there will always be disagreements on everything.
PPS: Class specific sets would be cool!

VaranisArano · August 2021

Sarannah wrote: »

JTD wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

I'm glad ESO does not keep nullifying our efforts by raising the gear and/or levelcap, and forcing us to re-make every character every expansion. This alone makes ESO superior over many other MMO's.

It sure feels great seeing the veteran trial community all running around in Bahsei and Diamond Victory and getting ready to go to Bahsei and MS/Medusa. I think that is boring, I'd rather have some viability and/or class specific sets to be able to use.

Meta will be meta, lets stop pretending that is a bad thing it's part of how games work be it (mmo)rpg or 4x or shooters.

On a more nuanced note:

Isn't it great we're all in our own echo chambers but we all pretend to be correct?

I do not run trials... but players choose/pick which sets are meta. Players can choose to use other sets, there will always be something meta regardless of nerfs/buffs! So players need to stop with the min-max mindset, that is the only way to break the meta-mindset. The min-max mindset, where players who use a secondary set(s) are automatically presumed bad. This is more of a problem with the current gaminggeneration, than it is an ESO issue.

For the record, I use sets which complement my playstyle, and which I like using. I love Hatchling's Shell for tanking, and the way I use it, it is the best set ever. I do not use sets considered meta on any of my characters, atleast not because they are meta. (I play singlebar, without barswapping on all my characters)

PS: The issue isn't people 'pretending' to be correct, the issue is everyone is partly correct. And when you add personalities in the mix on what is important, or more important, there will always be disagreements on everything.
PPS: Class specific sets would be cool!

A nitpick here: players aren't actually picking and choosing which sets are meta. "Meta" is simply the most efficient/effective tactic available. It's number-crunching and figuring out which class/skills/gear give the highest DPS or best group effectiveness. Nerfs and buffs change the math, which changes the meta. If you want to talk about who "picks" the meta, look at the Devs, not the players.

One of the nice things about ESO is that you really don't need the highest DPS possible to complete most content. And there's a variety of non-meta class/skill/gear options that are viable for all content, even though only one will be optimal, by the very nature of optimization.

And you really won't break the min-max mindset, because its a perfectly normal gaming mindset. I play D&D with someone who really enjoys making min-maxed characters. They'll pick one thing - like using the 3.5 grapple rules - and do it really, really well. I don't min-max in ESO very well beyond basic stam/mag, but I do in Warframe where I can build frames that I've specialized to turn certain mission modes into a cakewalk.

Finding the Meta and Min-maxing can cause issues when someone starts treating non-min-maxed players as "bad", but unless the TOS is broken, I don't see what you propose to do about a bad attitude...or a guild saying, effectively, "If we're going to group up and spend time doing this activity together, you will wear these meta sets so we all respect each other's time and effort for the best experience."

SilverBride · August 2021

Vhozek wrote: »

I think the main problem is caring what casual players think.

When the majority of the playerbase is casual it would be very bad business to not care what they think.

Vhozek wrote: »

Look at Albion Online. I've been playing it recently. It's pretty anti casual and it's full loot PvP. I've grown to really like the game despite being scared to do some of the content because of the PvP. The more you think about how the game is designed, the more it makes sense. Amazon should've just kept going with their initial vision and see that Albion Online doesn't struggle and has been growing despite it being anti casual. That just means that people eventually do give in to play the game despite the hardcore aspect of it. Starting zones are always FULL of people. I think the correct sweetspot is to make a hardcore game and add some convenience elements to it to at least make it feel smooth or enjoyable to play.

Starting zones will be full of people who are wanting to check out a new game. The true test of how well the game is doing is how many keep playing after the starting zone.

Any game that counts on its playerbase to "give in to play the game despite the hardcore aspect of it" and adds some elements to "at least make it feel smooth or enjoyable to play" isn't using a very good business model. Enjoyment should be the top priority, and players never have to "give in" and play a game they just don't enjoy.

Everest_Lionheart · August 2021

VaranisArano wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

JTD wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

I'm glad ESO does not keep nullifying our efforts by raising the gear and/or levelcap, and forcing us to re-make every character every expansion. This alone makes ESO superior over many other MMO's.

It sure feels great seeing the veteran trial community all running around in Bahsei and Diamond Victory and getting ready to go to Bahsei and MS/Medusa. I think that is boring, I'd rather have some viability and/or class specific sets to be able to use.

Meta will be meta, lets stop pretending that is a bad thing it's part of how games work be it (mmo)rpg or 4x or shooters.

On a more nuanced note:

Isn't it great we're all in our own echo chambers but we all pretend to be correct?

I do not run trials... but players choose/pick which sets are meta. Players can choose to use other sets, there will always be something meta regardless of nerfs/buffs! So players need to stop with the min-max mindset, that is the only way to break the meta-mindset. The min-max mindset, where players who use a secondary set(s) are automatically presumed bad. This is more of a problem with the current gaminggeneration, than it is an ESO issue.

For the record, I use sets which complement my playstyle, and which I like using. I love Hatchling's Shell for tanking, and the way I use it, it is the best set ever. I do not use sets considered meta on any of my characters, atleast not because they are meta. (I play singlebar, without barswapping on all my characters)

PS: The issue isn't people 'pretending' to be correct, the issue is everyone is partly correct. And when you add personalities in the mix on what is important, or more important, there will always be disagreements on everything.
PPS: Class specific sets would be cool!

A nitpick here: players aren't actually picking and choosing which sets are meta. "Meta" is simply the most efficient/effective tactic available. It's number-crunching and figuring out which class/skills/gear give the highest DPS or best group effectiveness. Nerfs and buffs change the math, which changes the meta. If you want to talk about who "picks" the meta, look at the Devs, not the players.

One of the nice things about ESO is that you really don't need the highest DPS possible to complete most content. And there's a variety of non-meta class/skill/gear options that are viable for all content, even though only one will be optimal, by the very nature of optimization.

And you really won't break the min-max mindset, because its a perfectly normal gaming mindset. I play D&D with someone who really enjoys making min-maxed characters. They'll pick one thing - like using the 3.5 grapple rules - and do it really, really well. I don't min-max in ESO very well beyond basic stam/mag, but I do in Warframe where I can build frames that I've specialized to turn certain mission modes into a cakewalk.

Finding the Meta and Min-maxing can cause issues when someone starts treating non-min-maxed players as "bad", but unless the TOS is broken, I don't see what you propose to do about a bad attitude...or a guild saying, effectively, "If we're going to group up and spend time doing this activity together, you will wear these meta sets so we all respect each other's time and effort for the best experience."

There are some serious issues with the endgame community though and that is the expectations and requirements to be considered for some of these teams. I’ve seen some teams asking for 97K minimum parses on XB and that’s really only possible if you do follow the meta. The crazy part is that 6 months ago 90K was the norm and a year ago 85K was pretty much the cap of what you could hit.

Gating trial groups like that really closes the circle around players which are accepted into certain endgame trials. And taking it a step further many of those require completes of the content in order to get into a run. Either you already run worth these types of people or chances are you never will. Unless one is your buddy and they desperately need a full for a gear farm.

I’m not sure why the endgame trials community is doing this. The tanks are thinning out and more runs these days get cancelled because they can’t fill rather than give a couple 95k DPS without completes a chance. It’s an exclusive community whose ranks are dwindling. Or maybe it’s just an XB-NA thing. Do other servers have this same problem?

Amerises · August 2021

For a while I thought, "well this way they can keep places relatively populated." Except after spending about 7 months to get to cp160, I realized I never really saw anyone else, and when I did, it's not like their play really even affected me. So now I look back and don't understand it.

luen79rwb17_ESO · August 2021

The so called "vertical progession" is nothing but a neverending grinding race to the top gear sets and making a de facto 99,9% of the rest of the content useless in the process.

That pointless and tiresome race is the reason why I ended up quitting on the old MMOs I used to play. Work hard on X raid and in a few weeks it's all useless and the next tier greens outperforms your legends lol no ty!