My biggest Issue with the game - How the lack of progression affected my experience

xAarionx

Hello There (Insert obi wan meme here)

So I'm out of the game for quite some time now, initially i stopped because was due a overwork phase of my life, but then I realized that I mostly out didn't want to come back to play, even after I got some free time again on my hands.
I realized right now that I got tired of the game, really, I literally got tired of this game and took the time to think and find out what are the biggest issues with the game itself that made me tire of it, and I Found some of the reasons for each (I have 3 main reason, But I’ll keep this post focused on just one of them
I'll warn you guys from the beginning, this will be a long post, because I'll try to explain and justify my line of thinking here, but I'll make a TLDR version in the end.

So, let's address it: The lack of feeling of progression in the game. – By far the greatest problem in the game in my point of view.

Now, I know that the game dev's are looking for a more balanced experience in the game, for that reason they choose the police of lower the ceiling and raising the floor. Also, all game map difficulty is balanced to every map of the game to be able to be beaten at any level.
And that’s a good way to attract new player, and have them enjoy a fun experience from the start. that works in that sense.
BUT, in what sense did you think that would keep them attached to the game?

New player will quickly realize how little their choices and, mostly important, leveling, will influence the outcome of his game, the game will neither get easier or more difficult as time progresses (in fact, until CP 160, they'll constantly have the feeling they're getting WEAKER as they’re leveling up)

That's not good way to keep your player attached, I wish I could have some statistical data on this, But I bet my ass that you have a significant number of players that drop the game before level 160, because they don’t feel that are progressing in the game at all, and tire of the game fast, even if they enjoy the experience in the start. I’ll would actually challenge the devs to put on a poll for players that dropped in early stages and with this as an option and see if it’s not on of the main reasons.

I myself felt tempted to drop it, but stayed due some stubbornness combined with my love of TES lore and stories.
But, nevertheless, let’s say that just like me you managed to get attached due another factor got to level 160, congratulations! now you can go farming for you LVL max gear and actually start become stronger as you level up!

Except, no, you’ll won’t…

I mean, you get a little bit stronger as you level your CP, but not as closely as enough to feel yourself really developing through the game. You’ll feel like you are trying to run underwater with to massive weights attached to your legs. You are moving, but so slowly that it makes you feel that you’re stuck!
You get 100, 200 500 CP and the difference that will make on your strength will be negligible. And That’s the main consequence of the “Lowering the ceiling” policy.
You see yourself getting higher levels, but, on practice, you are on the same spot as you where 700 levels before. This is REALLY BAD if you want your player to remain attached to the game, eventually he will tire out, as I did, and drop it

Humans have a psychological need of progression and achievement, they don’t like the feeling of being stuck in the same place, no matter how much fun they're having with the gameplay, if they lack this, they're bound to tire out. This is true on many aspects of life, and that’s one of the reasons of the greatest success of video games, because they give to a person a feeling of achievement! – Witch can, and will, lead to some psychological problems if the person starts to use video games as a means to fill his lack of achievement IRL, and if you are doing this right now, Drop the games and go see a therapist, Really.
Nevertheless, by making the game lack this sense, it’s far more likely that people will tire out eventually and leave the game
This is just one of the main reasons that made-me tire, but, by far, I Think is the more urgent one

You can argue the the collectibles and armor/weapon library can give this feeling of progression, but, in all honesty? most of people don't feel they're are actuually achieving something by spending hours and hours in a game doing the same thing over and over again to complete a library that will affect little to nothing your gameplay. I mean, I'm talking about how doing collectibles will not give your access to new areas, new skills or new gameplay options or something like that to really give the player the sense they're are achieving something

I would suggest that the devs rethink the policy and start to think how to make people feel they’re actually evolving and getting stronger as they level up in the game. Give them the feeling that they’re actually getting somewhere. but I doub't the will reach any of the devs, I just wanted to share this and some place, and the forum seems to be a good one

So TLDR version: The lack of feeling of progression made-me tire out of the game due human beings psicological need of achievement.

So That's it
TESO is a really fantasting game, but there's a lot of little things that's dragging itself ot ouf it's full potential.
This is, I think, one of them.

Sylvermynx

Hmm. I have no psychological need for achievement. And I don't play this (or any) game to "get somewhere". I play for fun. That's what games are for - fun. This game at this point is more fun than I've had since Skyrim released. And I do still play Skyrim and Oblivion....

Every person is different. You can make that post from your own perspective, but you can't make the claim it's "for everyone".

In other words: "Speak for yourself, John." (Yes, that's not the entire quote - it's paraphrased. Longfellow's dead, he won't care.)

Parasaurolophus

@xAarionx you're not quite right. Player progression is not only due to increased level, cp and more powerful equipment. You forget about the skill. The player progresses primarily due to the fact that he learns to play. The better you play, the better you get at tasks. Further, achievements, difficult XM are waiting for you. However, there is a problem here. I already wrote on the forum that the overwhelming majority of players do not know how to play and are afraid to even try veteran content. Part of your truth is that the average player has nothing to do. It is already too strong to have the benefit and fun of overland content, and high end content takes a lot of time, energy and SKILLED PEOPLE WHO ARE READY TO PLAY WITH YOU WHEN YOU HAVE TIME.

AuraoftheAzureSea

Achievement-oriented players exist for sure. I’d argue that they’d be the ones focused on challenges like clearing HM/no death/speedruns in multiplayer content.

I’d consider myself to be a combination of achievement and immersion driven in games, and although I do value a sense of progression, I personally wasn’t bothered by it in ESO. I eventually reached “the end” of my interest, but that would have happened with a game that was vertical progression rather than horizontal as well.

AuraoftheAzureSea

I wanted to add that, like games like Monster Hunter and even Diablo to an extent, a lot of your sense of progression can be tied to gear (and skill unlocks that give you new styles of play).

Under 50 battlegrounds while leveling is a great example of how much of a difference those can make!

It doesn’t have to be tied to your characters stats increasing to give that sense of progress and satisfaction.

Celephantsylvius_Bornasfinmo

Hi OP,

I kind of get your position vis à vis end game and the progression side of ESO.

I would agree that in a more realistic 'world', different zones would propose varying difficulty levels. Logic right?
You could venture to a zone and be confronted by mobs which are a higher level than you, hence asking for help, hence using your companion to it's full potential, hence joining a guild..etc etc.

I think what OP is getting at is that ESO is a bit of a theme park and I get that feeling too.

End game is veteran trials with the hopes of passing trifectas (hard to setup in the current context of ESO)
End game is housing (Should it be though as there is no real perk outside of storage chests)
End game is PvP (You have spent time accumulating gear and knowledge, but it's unplayable outside of BG's)

So all in all I get your frustration, OP. I think when you have spent a lot of time in the game like myself and probably OP, you suddenly feel a bit stumped and don't know what to do...and/or things you 'want' to do just don't want 'you'.

VaranisArano

All games have a lifespan - eventually everyone gets tired and leaves the game, no matter which game we're talking about.

This is not going to sound very nice, but it's not necessarily a problem if a segment of the playerbase is getting bored and leaving. That was going to happen regardless.

It IS a problem if a substantial portion of the playerbase who dislikes the game design and is leaving once they've "maxed out" what they can do...and unfortunately for your ideas here, that's already happened in the opposite way you want. The playerbase told the Devs they wanted Horizontal Progression.

Specifically, it happened with pre-One Tamriel's Vertical Progression, and it led the ESO Devs to transform ESO into exactly the type of Horizontal Progression you don't like. Feedback from their playerbase pushed the Devs to radically transform ESO away from its original Vertical design where you got more powerful and outleveled old content to the current design where the whole game is open to you by CP 300, brand new players can jump straight into the latest content, and your Progression is more dependent on your personal skill and willingness to grind for new gear as the meta shifts.

And so while it's good to tell the Devs what you want, I can't help but feel that the good ship "One Tamriel" has already sailed and we're not going back to Vertical Progression.

Celephantsylvius_Bornasfinmo

VaranisArano wrote: »

All games have a lifespan - eventually everyone gets tired and leaves the game, no matter which game we're talking about.

This is not going to sound very nice, but it's not necessarily a problem if a segment of the playerbase is getting bored and leaving. That was going to happen regardless.

It IS a problem if a substantial portion of the playerbase who dislikes the game design and is leaving once they've "maxed out" what they can do...and unfortunately for your ideas here, that's already happened in the opposite way you want. The playerbase told the Devs they wanted Horizontal Progression.

Specifically, it happened with pre-One Tamriel's Vertical Progression, and it led the ESO Devs to transform ESO into exactly the type of Horizontal Progression you don't like. Feedback from their playerbase pushed the Devs to radically transform ESO away from its original Vertical design where you got more powerful and outleveled old content to the current design where the whole game is open to you by CP 300, brand new players can jump straight into the latest content, and your Progression is more dependent on your personal skill and willingness to grind for new gear as the meta shifts.

And so while it's good to tell the Devs what you want, I can't help but feel that the good ship "One Tamriel" has already sailed and we're not going back to Vertical Progression.

*waves to the ship leaving*

'It was an honour, vertical progression.'

In all seriousness I don't know where they are getting their feedback for some of the changes made. I don't feel as if the major issues are ever addressed and I've been on the forum since 2015. Horizontal progression..hmm... it's marketing progression, no?

Either way they need to find something to consolidate the player base and bring them up to par. We can't run around overland, do normal trials and pex companions until the end of days, right?

(edited for typos)

Everest_Lionheart

-Spoiler Alert-

The ceiling never actually got lowered.

SilverBride

Youyouz06 wrote: »

Either way they need to find something to consolidate the player base and bring them up to par. We can't run around overland, do normal trials and pex companions until the end of days, right?

I'm not sure what you mean by bringing the playerbase up to par. Do you mean progressing all players up to a point that meets another players expectations of what every player should be?

I run around overland, and craft, and decorate houses and this is what I will continue to do because it's what I enjoy. I don't do trials, normal or otherwise, because I don't enjoy them. I am already up to par for how I choose to play.

Celephantsylvius_Bornasfinmo

SilverBride wrote: »

Youyouz06 wrote: »

Either way they need to find something to consolidate the player base and bring them up to par. We can't run around overland, do normal trials and pex companions until the end of days, right?

I'm not sure what you mean by bringing the playerbase up to par. Do you mean progressing all players up to a point that meets another players expectations of what every player should be?

I run around overland, and craft, and decorate houses and this is what I will continue to do because it's what I enjoy. I don't do trials, normal or otherwise, because I don't enjoy them. I am already up to par for how I choose to play.

Yep I know what you mean Silver (about your personal choices of not raiding etc and that is fine), but there was a large part of the community that did a couple of years back.

I notice it myself nowadays as I took a break from raiding about 2 years ago for about that same time period. I wanted to get back into the swing of raiding and joined some VSS 'pug' runs which were invite only and based on a achievement (group leader decided this); I went back and forth in this raids for about a month basically on a daily basis and saw that knowledge of raid gameplay of the player base was really low and it was impossible to pass. I then went on to try and create a French raiding group with pre-requisites (DPS/what you have done etc) for people who hadn't had the chance to pass certain things I had in the past. I still had a very hard time finding able players for this endeavour of getting Gryphon heart in VCR+3 and little to no possibility of finding back up elements and I had to shut it down in June after only two weeks of raiding.

All in all I think the hype for trials has died down dramatically and the meta pushes from our producer made the raiding scene even less attractive for some as it created unnecessary pressure and separations within the raiding community.

When I mention up to par; It can mean a multitude of things:

- Creating an atmosphere that gives players an incentive to play trials and gain raid gameplay knowledge
- Giving more tutorials to players on how to use their class/skills/gameplay
- Introducing more elements for 'quality of life' via trials so that players engage in them more (even normal mode)
- Giving more options for support roles in a raid group (not just tanks and healers)

(The last mention in my list is for players who find DPS daunting - I know it's a thing, because I didn't feel compelled to do it as a healer main role for years)

VaranisArano

Youyouz06 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

All games have a lifespan - eventually everyone gets tired and leaves the game, no matter which game we're talking about.

This is not going to sound very nice, but it's not necessarily a problem if a segment of the playerbase is getting bored and leaving. That was going to happen regardless.

It IS a problem if a substantial portion of the playerbase who dislikes the game design and is leaving once they've "maxed out" what they can do...and unfortunately for your ideas here, that's already happened in the opposite way you want. The playerbase told the Devs they wanted Horizontal Progression.

Specifically, it happened with pre-One Tamriel's Vertical Progression, and it led the ESO Devs to transform ESO into exactly the type of Horizontal Progression you don't like. Feedback from their playerbase pushed the Devs to radically transform ESO away from its original Vertical design where you got more powerful and outleveled old content to the current design where the whole game is open to you by CP 300, brand new players can jump straight into the latest content, and your Progression is more dependent on your personal skill and willingness to grind for new gear as the meta shifts.

And so while it's good to tell the Devs what you want, I can't help but feel that the good ship "One Tamriel" has already sailed and we're not going back to Vertical Progression.

*waves to the ship leaving*

'It was an honour, vertical progression.'

In all seriousness I don't know where they are getting their feedback for some of the changes made. I don't feel as if the major issues are ever addressed and I've been on the forum since 2015. Horizontal progression..hmm... it's marketing progression, no?

Either way they need to find something to consolidate the player base and bring them up to par. We can't run around overland, do normal trials and pex companions until the end of days, right?

(edited for typos)

Uh, that's what a lot of players do...

Don't get me wrong, there's an appetite for harder content. There are requests for vet overland content in addition to more dungeons, trials, and arenas. But that's never been very marketable - ZOS tried that with Craglorn, and it never really took off, not even after ZOS nerfed it down to its current state. I'd love a Vet Overland option, but I don't expect it to happen.

Then consider the flip side - requests for "Story Mode" soloable instances for group content so solo players can experience the story without having to "progress" into group content. As a TES MMO that pulls from the singpleplayer fan base, ESO really does have a substantial number of players who really do just want to quest, or craft, or explore, or decorate their houses etc.

And so we wind up in a situation where ZOS is satisfying the majority of their playerbase and new players with the current system of content releases and Horizontal Progression, while the inevitable attrition from players getting bored and leaving is within acceptable limits.

Tandor

I never quite understand why people who have previously quit a game because they didn't enjoy it then return and expect to enjoy it the second time round. Not every game is the right one for everyone.

Similarly, I'm seeing posts on the forum from those who have been playing this game for 7+ years, most of that time probably at the cap and in many cases probably on a single character as well as in some cases with an inherent dislike of questing, and they seem both surprised and disappointed that they're now bored with the game and feel they must move on if the developers don't make drastic changes to the game in their favour. I don't quite get that, either.

_adhyffbjjjf12

The Op's post boils down to an erroneous viewpoint that the only thing that equates to progress is bigger numbers. Its a fallacy that wow has perpetuated for years, and that game is an absolute toxic treadmill led car crash because of this 'progression'

Progression IS achievements, skill, content completion, wealth, housing, build up gear choice, CP (if you need a perceived big 'boost' cash in your cp every 40 - 100 points), PVP titles/Skill/satisfaction in your own performance, do every quest in game, complete every zone in game, get every skill in game, get rich in both gold and crowns, improve your performance in PVE through skill not bigger gear numbers (much more satisfying). It goes on OP.

I've been playing casually since day 1, more seriously in last year, and eso is FULL of progression that WORKS and doesn't break the game through ever increasing power levels.

Celephantsylvius_Bornasfinmo

Tandor wrote: »

I never quite understand why people who have previously quit a game because they didn't enjoy it then return and expect to enjoy it the second time round. Not every game is the right one for everyone.

Similarly, I'm seeing posts on the forum from those who have been playing this game for 7+ years, most of that time probably at the cap and in many cases probably on a single character as well as in some cases with an inherent dislike of questing, and they seem both surprised and disappointed that they're now bored with the game and feel they must move on if the developers don't make drastic changes to the game in their favour. I don't quite get that, either.

Well I have a bunch of characters, myself. Even some meta characters so that I could join raids (meh). I don't think the stereo type of solo character/don't like questing really defines myself nor the OP and I would personally enjoy seeing a much more immersive questing experience, for sure and I'd sign up for that update and support it.

There has been a big change in the ESO world over the past years and I think some newer people just don't have the souvenir of what it was. No one can deny that there were detrimental sides to the competitive PvE aspects of the game, but now it feels like we've taken the slider the opposite direction, perhaps..too much? Anyway I'm enjoying ESO for the same reasons some have written above; I come in for some social outtings such as RP or housing, but that's about it at the moment because as I said earlier, it's too much of a task to get things started in the current context.

kargen27

_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »

The Op's post boils down to an erroneous viewpoint that the only thing that equates to progress is bigger numbers. Its a fallacy that wow has perpetuated for years, and that game is an absolute toxic treadmill led car crash because of this 'progression'

Progression IS achievements, skill, content completion, wealth, housing, build up gear choice, CP (if you need a perceived big 'boost' cash in your cp every 40 - 100 points), PVP titles/Skill/satisfaction in your own performance, do every quest in game, complete every zone in game, get every skill in game, get rich in both gold and crowns, improve your performance in PVE through skill not bigger gear numbers (much more satisfying). It goes on OP.

I've been playing casually since day 1, more seriously in last year, and eso is FULL of progression that WORKS and doesn't break the game through ever increasing power levels.

Also been playing since day one and still have some trophies to find for those collector achievements. Lately I have been killing a lot (many many) Lurchers trying to get a Knotted Heart. Last thing I need for the Nature Collector. Last night I finally knocked out two achievements in Imperial City. I used to play quite a bit in Imperial City and still like going there. I just hadn't concentrated on finishing achievements there until last night. I'm in a progression group trying to finish vet Sunspire. We do a run once a week. Before Sunspire we did Cloudrest. It took us four or five months to finally get through Cloudrest and it felt really good when we did it.
I'm fine with numbers not getting bigger. I have plenty left to make it feel like I am progressing.

zaria

_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »

The Op's post boils down to an erroneous viewpoint that the only thing that equates to progress is bigger numbers. Its a fallacy that wow has perpetuated for years, and that game is an absolute toxic treadmill led car crash because of this 'progression'

Progression IS achievements, skill, content completion, wealth, housing, build up gear choice, CP (if you need a perceived big 'boost' cash in your cp every 40 - 100 points), PVP titles/Skill/satisfaction in your own performance, do every quest in game, complete every zone in game, get every skill in game, get rich in both gold and crowns, improve your performance in PVE through skill not bigger gear numbers (much more satisfying). It goes on OP.

I've been playing casually since day 1, more seriously in last year, and eso is FULL of progression that WORKS and doesn't break the game through ever increasing power levels.

This, WOW updates did make you stronger against previous enemies, but everything is scaled up and previous enemies are leveling content.
So your relative strength might go down compared to others as other classes, builds or play styles works better after update as in ESO.

Chips_Ahoy

xAarionx wrote: »

So TLDR version: The lack of feeling of progression made-me tire out of the game due human beings psicological need of achievement.

Really? I have that need for achievement in real life, but in a video game?

Currently there is nothing I want or need in ESO, i dont need corwns, gear, gold, etc. however, I keep playing and I enjoy it.

kargen27

Chips_Ahoy wrote: »

xAarionx wrote: »

So TLDR version: The lack of feeling of progression made-me tire out of the game due human beings psicological need of achievement.

Really? I have that need for achievement in real life, but in a video game?

Currently there is nothing I want or need in ESO, i dont need corwns, gear, gold, etc. however, I keep playing and I enjoy it.

Not even the need to light attack a monkey with a staff just to watch it do that little pirouette? Another banana is just a bonus.

Thoragaal

xAarionx wrote: »

Hello There (Insert obi wan meme here)

So I'm out of the game for quite some time now, initially i stopped because was due a overwork phase of my life, but then I realized that I mostly out didn't want to come back to play, even after I got some free time again on my hands.
I realized right now that I got tired of the game, really, I literally got tired of this game and took the time to think and find out what are the biggest issues with the game itself that made me tire of it, and I Found some of the reasons for each (I have 3 main reason, But I’ll keep this post focused on just one of them
I'll warn you guys from the beginning, this will be a long post, because I'll try to explain and justify my line of thinking here, but I'll make a TLDR version in the end.

So, let's address it: The lack of feeling of progression in the game. – By far the greatest problem in the game in my point of view.

Now, I know that the game dev's are looking for a more balanced experience in the game, for that reason they choose the police of lower the ceiling and raising the floor. Also, all game map difficulty is balanced to every map of the game to be able to be beaten at any level.
And that’s a good way to attract new player, and have them enjoy a fun experience from the start. that works in that sense.
BUT, in what sense did you think that would keep them attached to the game?

New player will quickly realize how little their choices and, mostly important, leveling, will influence the outcome of his game, the game will neither get easier or more difficult as time progresses (in fact, until CP 160, they'll constantly have the feeling they're getting WEAKER as they’re leveling up)

That's not good way to keep your player attached, I wish I could have some statistical data on this, But I bet my ass that you have a significant number of players that drop the game before level 160, because they don’t feel that are progressing in the game at all, and tire of the game fast, even if they enjoy the experience in the start. I’ll would actually challenge the devs to put on a poll for players that dropped in early stages and with this as an option and see if it’s not on of the main reasons.

I myself felt tempted to drop it, but stayed due some stubbornness combined with my love of TES lore and stories.
But, nevertheless, let’s say that just like me you managed to get attached due another factor got to level 160, congratulations! now you can go farming for you LVL max gear and actually start become stronger as you level up!

Except, no, you’ll won’t…

I mean, you get a little bit stronger as you level your CP, but not as closely as enough to feel yourself really developing through the game. You’ll feel like you are trying to run underwater with to massive weights attached to your legs. You are moving, but so slowly that it makes you feel that you’re stuck!
You get 100, 200 500 CP and the difference that will make on your strength will be negligible. And That’s the main consequence of the “Lowering the ceiling” policy.
You see yourself getting higher levels, but, on practice, you are on the same spot as you where 700 levels before. This is REALLY BAD if you want your player to remain attached to the game, eventually he will tire out, as I did, and drop it

Humans have a psychological need of progression and achievement, they don’t like the feeling of being stuck in the same place, no matter how much fun they're having with the gameplay, if they lack this, they're bound to tire out. This is true on many aspects of life, and that’s one of the reasons of the greatest success of video games, because they give to a person a feeling of achievement! – Witch can, and will, lead to some psychological problems if the person starts to use video games as a means to fill his lack of achievement IRL, and if you are doing this right now, Drop the games and go see a therapist, Really.
Nevertheless, by making the game lack this sense, it’s far more likely that people will tire out eventually and leave the game
This is just one of the main reasons that made-me tire, but, by far, I Think is the more urgent one

You can argue the the collectibles and armor/weapon library can give this feeling of progression, but, in all honesty? most of people don't feel they're are actuually achieving something by spending hours and hours in a game doing the same thing over and over again to complete a library that will affect little to nothing your gameplay. I mean, I'm talking about how doing collectibles will not give your access to new areas, new skills or new gameplay options or something like that to really give the player the sense they're are achieving something

I would suggest that the devs rethink the policy and start to think how to make people feel they’re actually evolving and getting stronger as they level up in the game. Give them the feeling that they’re actually getting somewhere. but I doub't the will reach any of the devs, I just wanted to share this and some place, and the forum seems to be a good one

So TLDR version: The lack of feeling of progression made-me tire out of the game due human beings psicological need of achievement.

So That's it
TESO is a really fantasting game, but there's a lot of little things that's dragging itself ot ouf it's full potential.
This is, I think, one of them.

I 100% agree with you.
However, the devs are well aware of it (hence why 410 cp was the average, prior the new CP system).
A more dissapointing note is that most people that Do care about progression in games have already left.
The game isn't made with the aim to keep people playing and progressing (in a general sense), it's made to attract new people and have those people drop a few bucks in the crown store; It's fun, initially, but when it the same rinse and repeat day in and day out people grow weary.
I think for most people, that's been playing the game for several years, for many of them this is their first "online game" and have no idea what to expect. Due to the psychological sense of not wanting to let go of something we spent a lot of time with, we therefore just keep going with it. Also, learning a new system (as in a new game) requires some cognitive efforts, further enhancing the effect of just staying in the same spot. To change this there needs to be some motivational factors (like comparing with how something Should or Could be), but since prior knowledge is missing this motivation is diminished.

Sylvermynx

Well, I played WoW from 2006 until mid 2013, and Rift from early 2013 until the end of 2016. The reason I left both of them was nothing to do with progression or achievements - it was that they stopped being fun for me for various reason (both were headed in directions I knew I wasn't going to like/find fun - that was the main issue but there were others as well).

So no, in my case this is not my first "online game" - and as long as it remains fun for me, I will be here playing it until the servers go dark. I don't know if anyone else feels that way or not; this is simply my own opinion, stated for myself.

Sluggy

Progression through leveling is an illusion. Progression through learning skills isn't. It's just like learning to play instruments. At first you suck, you have a slight burst early on and then you hit a wall. If you can get past that wall, however, you'll find a whole new world of possibilities beyond it. If it's just a case of getting bigger numbers because you have played longer without actually learning anything well... that IS truly meaningless because you yourself have never progressed and since the content stays at a fixed difficulty you will find that all of it becomes inconsequential after a while. Chess has ZERO leveling progression. Yet people have played it for a very long time. Studied it. And progressed their own ability to get better at it. THAT is what you want in games that are to have any kind of longevity.

Now as far as progressing through the content itself... yeah I'll agree that since they've flattened out all of the overland stuff there is basically little incentive to experience it outside of story-based quests. It's basically just dungeons, trials that ramp up difficulty as you progress through them. But with memorization and experience and a firm understanding of the game, this stuff all kinda becomes trivial at some point. PvP is about the only landscape that keeps you on your toes after a while... which actually was the original end goal of the game when it first came out anyway.

xAarionx

I'll try to address some of Things that were posted here, I'll not quote message per message because it's annoying and Inefficient

[snip]

Nevertheless, back to central topic

Some people seemed to have misunderstood something: I’m not saying that progression is only related to leveling. That’s not true, however it’s a part of it. Yeah, A significant part of the sense of progression that you get on any MMO comes from leveling, it’s the most immediate source in fact. With build and gear on second, and skill play in third – I’m not talking here about importance, but the order that the player will notice them.

That’s why I pointed out the problem in really early stages of the game, that you actually feel yourself getting weaker as you level up. That’s one thing that almost made-me give up the game when I was low level

Witch bring me to the next point: Some people seems to think that I played a little than quit. Actually, no. I reached CP 11xx (don’t remember the last digits, and was almost full build with my magsorc, So yeah, I played for almost one year, but, I must say, progression was really not the reason that me to stay, it was mostly the quests story and lore.

also, on another point, as I pointed out earlier, year, gearing up and player skill have a good influence of the sense of progression, that’s the reason why, in fact MOBAs like League of legends and DOTA can maintain you attached to several years. The have a great number of heroes, each one of them with a unique set of skills and gameplay that requires you to master each one of them individually, and as you become better with one champion and start to practice with other that itself gives the since of progression needed to attach the player to the game.

HOWEVER, care to explain to me, whats the big difference, gameplaywise, of playing a mag sorc and a magtemplar? Or maybe a magblade? Or magDK. Or, whats the diference about playing a stamblade to a stamtemp?

In all honesty, I played these characters, and although there are some minor differences about the skills used and efficiency especially, the gameplay and the tatics where, overall, the same, weave, weave, weave, buff, weave weave weave, defubb, weav weav weav ultimate… something like that… I’ve never actually felt that I were playing something different. It’s more of the same with different visuals (specially the stamina builds)

And then, I can see you argue that: “but OP, in TESO the gameplay changes with your build not with your class and you have thousands to choose!” I absolutely agree! But, care to tell me, how many of this builds are actually meta viable? And how different they’re from on to another?

I Actually posted some time ago a suggestion that would really mitigate this problem, that was to divide the destruction staff skill line in 3 skill lines for each elemental. THAT would give more variety of viable builds and gameplay, at least for mag builds. But for stamina i really don't know what to do... maybe, new kinds of weapons?

I’ll bring out the example of my magsorc. I managed to get medusa set+mother sorrow. The next upgrade that I could do on it was getting the trial gear of the false gods sets. That would get a improvement of mostly 3k dps (overall) in dungeons from my calculations. So, is that progression? Really?

And to be clear I’m not talking about PVP. Although I see some problems of progression on PVP, it’s way better that PVE in this sense. I have other issues with it, I’ll talk about it another time

And also, Lets just be clear, I love the game, but like i say when I Advice people in relationships, it's the little things that kill or save a relationship.

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Ippokrates

The progression is only as good as your personal goals, because fortunately, ESO is more about players skills than numbers.

AND thanks to that I am very satisfied with this game, because after year of intense playing I can equip whichever set I want and make it fully gold. That satisfy me BUT I am also satisfied because of other goals I have completed, like soloing most of dungeons, including DLC, taking solo some in veteran & even hardmode, getting death achievement during solo run, completing achievements for Vateshran or reaching 30 kills in a single BG.

Yeah, maybe game was not designed this way but it works for me, so it is fine.

blktauna

I've been playing several years now and I have so much left to do and investigate and so many quests left I'm not sure how the OP has reached total endgame... and I play a lot.

xAarionx

blktauna wrote: »

I've been playing several years now and I have so much left to do and investigate and so many quests left I'm not sure how the OP has reached total endgame... and I play a lot.

I didn't... I tired out, becouse it felt like i was doing the same thing over and over again without really evolving in the game.

Athan1

When you first start the game, everything is a mission, even killing a mudcrab. As you level up, you get weaker and weaker instead of stronger. Once you hit CP160 the game suddenly becomes easy breezy. After hitting the cap you only get stronger and stronger as you accumulate more CP. When you create new chars that have access to CP from the get-go they are OP from level 1. Idk much about game designing but this doesn't sound quite right to me.

TigerSeptim

There's also the time-honored tradition of "out-leveling" a zone, i.e. becoming so powerful that minor enemies leave you alone. (That's how it was in, say, LotrO.) Here in ESO there's also (supposedly) a mini-story about how you bring peace to areas one by one. But that doesn't hold water when the mobs in said areas keep attacking.

I guess the shire has been saved, but not for us.

Pauwer

I still play mainly because i like my toons. I played all pve content first, which it was very satisfying to me, because i wanted to quest. I played all the quests all over tamriel. Then i started playing dungeons and trials, where i guess the progression was being able to finish them. Was fun for about 4 months. To me this content gets boring in the game real quick, because i dont chase achievements or titles. They are so repetitive. Then i tried pvp for the first time in my life and fell in love. I have been playing only pvp for years now but i think i dont get the feeling of progression per se anymore. I just try builds on my toons and i love playing them. Like i just like to play my toons in pvp. It just feels good.

Coatmagic

Not competitive per say, but at this point my only options are:

A ) [snip] to 'gitgud' to do group content that is extremely uncomfortable to my eyes

B ) housing

Want to say not sure why I'm still here, but I know it's because of all the money I've spent hoping... waiting... for... ?

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adriant1978

Youyouz06 wrote: »

Introducing more elements for 'quality of life' via trials so that players engage in them more (even normal mode)

What do you mean by "quality of life" here? Do you really want to force, for example, the kind of players who care passionately about housing furniture limits into trials in order to increase them?