My biggest Issue with the game - How the lack of progression affected my experience

VaranisArano

xAarionx wrote: »

I'll try to address some of Things that were posted here, I'll not quote message per message because it's annoying and Inefficient

[snip]

Nevertheless, back to central topic

Some people seemed to have misunderstood something: I’m not saying that progression is only related to leveling. That’s not true, however it’s a part of it. Yeah, A significant part of the sense of progression that you get on any MMO comes from leveling, it’s the most immediate source in fact. With build and gear on second, and skill play in third – I’m not talking here about importance, but the order that the player will notice them.

That’s why I pointed out the problem in really early stages of the game, that you actually feel yourself getting weaker as you level up. That’s one thing that almost made-me give up the game when I was low level

Witch bring me to the next point: Some people seems to think that I played a little than quit. Actually, no. I reached CP 11xx (don’t remember the last digits, and was almost full build with my magsorc, So yeah, I played for almost one year, but, I must say, progression was really not the reason that me to stay, it was mostly the quests story and lore.

also, on another point, as I pointed out earlier, year, gearing up and player skill have a good influence of the sense of progression, that’s the reason why, in fact MOBAs like League of legends and DOTA can maintain you attached to several years. The have a great number of heroes, each one of them with a unique set of skills and gameplay that requires you to master each one of them individually, and as you become better with one champion and start to practice with other that itself gives the since of progression needed to attach the player to the game.

HOWEVER, care to explain to me, whats the big difference, gameplaywise, of playing a mag sorc and a magtemplar? Or maybe a magblade? Or magDK. Or, whats the diference about playing a stamblade to a stamtemp?

In all honesty, I played these characters, and although there are some minor differences about the skills used and efficiency especially, the gameplay and the tatics where, overall, the same, weave, weave, weave, buff, weave weave weave, defubb, weav weav weav ultimate… something like that… I’ve never actually felt that I were playing something different. It’s more of the same with different visuals (specially the stamina builds)

And then, I can see you argue that: “but OP, in TESO the gameplay changes with your build not with your class and you have thousands to choose!” I absolutely agree! But, care to tell me, how many of this builds are actually meta viable? And how different they’re from on to another?

I Actually posted some time ago a suggestion that would really mitigate this problem, that was to divide the destruction staff skill line in 3 skill lines for each elemental. THAT would give more variety of viable builds and gameplay, at least for mag builds. But for stamina i really don't know what to do... maybe, new kinds of weapons?

I’ll bring out the example of my magsorc. I managed to get medusa set+mother sorrow. The next upgrade that I could do on it was getting the trial gear of the false gods sets. That would get a improvement of mostly 3k dps (overall) in dungeons from my calculations. So, is that progression? Really?

And to be clear I’m not talking about PVP. Although I see some problems of progression on PVP, it’s way better that PVE in this sense. I have other issues with it, I’ll talk about it another time

And also, Lets just be clear, I love the game, but like i say when I Advice people in relationships, it's the little things that kill or save a relationship.

[Removed off-topic content]

I can't say that I have the same problem of feeling like all my classes play the same, even when they use more or less the same weapons.

My Stam Sorc is a fast bruiser who wants to get in the middle of clustered mobs and start ripping them to shreds with Hurricane, while killing them with DW/Bow skills.

My Stam Warden is a little more methodical, setting up her delayed pet skills so that they arrive the same time she does, smashing into the enemy, then backing off long enough to set up another devastating burst while using DW/Bow skills.

My StamDK is damage over time. She wants to hit each enemy with each skill, once, then let that eat away at them while using DW/Bow skills.

Ultimately, it's going to come down to how you play. If you use the same combat style or you don't lean into the rhythm of each class' distinct skills and strengths, I can see where they might feel the same - especially if you rely heavily on weapon skills that are shared by multiple classes or you simplify the rotations down to weave, spammable, debuff, ult, etc.

But I really don't have that problem.

I've also tanked on a MagDK, MagSorc, MagWarden, and briefly, on a MagBlade. I've healed on a MagSorc, MagPlar, and MagWarden. Again, despite doing the same job with more or less the same weapons, it's an entirely different feeling for how I got the job done on each class. Of the classes I've healed and tanked with, I have definite preferences for which playstyle I preferred. For one, I'm an odd one who doesn't like healing on a Templar - MagWarden was much more my jam because of its class skill HOTS and buffs.

But this is an extremely subjective thing and I don't expect my experience to convince you to feel differently. Perhaps, just keep in mind that it IS very subjective, and that what's true for me is not true for you and vice versa.


On a final note, I'm rather skeptical of suggestions that wind up with "ESO, why aren't you more like this other genre of MOBA games that I like? Can't you change your design to be more like that?"

As I said above, ESO has its own playerbase that it's trying to serve. I think it's unlikely that imitating other genres of games is going to be a part of that process. I mean, League of Legends has 140 Champions...and how many of them are just garbage or have gotten left behind by the meta? Warframe has 40+ warframes, and when I played regularly, I had a number that I never took on missions because I just had better frames for the job. The more you differentiate your champions/classes/warframes, the greater the difference between "viable" and "optimal" becomes, making it much harder for all your options to be viable.

ESO has 6 classes, and roughly 36 "builds" broken out into stam/mag variants and the MMO trinity roles and even more variety if you get into PVP. One thing that can't be said for any of the classes is that they are in the same boat as some League of Legends Champions, being picked for less than 1% of games. ESO's classes really do fit what ZOS wanted: every class is viable, if not necessarily optimal in each role - and most DPS differences are minimal unless it's scorepushing.

Now, maybe that's a problem in your eyes. It's not a problem for me - I prefer that all my classes be viable, rather than basically just taking up a slot for years because the meta moved on.

Darkstorne

One Tamriel is still a much better progression system than launch ESO was. A level 30 player could solo the most epic bosses from level 10 areas, or slaughter dozens of ogres in seconds. But that same player could then travel to a level 50 zone and get one shot by a mosquito or a mudcrab. Literally. Senseless system that didn't fit the IP even remotely.

I think there's a good argument to be made for finding a middle ground though, where every zone has a mix of easier scaled content, and then harder end-game content. Brand new Skyrim players will find they can attack a giant camp right outside Whiterun for example, but that it won't end well for them. They quickly learn that tough-looking enemies are actually tough. Giants and mammoths are best left alone at low levels, bears and sabre cats are reason for caution, but wolves and bandits are fair game.



That said, you could also argue ESO already has this via world bosses being end-game challenges that can't be done solo while levelling. But I still think the game would be better off with some delves or similar solo content specifically designed for end game solo play, and not just leaning on playing content specifically designed for groups solo to create an artificial challenge. Or in other words, rather than a vet overland toggle, just add some specifically well designed vet delves to zones from now on. I'd love if Q1 and Q3 updates added a new vet delve to an existing zone, while Chapters and Q4s from now on always had a vet delve included in their zones. New players will learn to stay away, just like they did in Skyrim (didn't affect the popularity of that game), and it gives you a good reason to return to previously "completed" zones for further challenge, and provides that sense of progression. Like returning to that giant camp outside Whiterun in Skyrim:

Celephantsylvius_Bornasfinmo

adriant1978 wrote: »

Youyouz06 wrote: »

Introducing more elements for 'quality of life' via trials so that players engage in them more (even normal mode)

What do you mean by "quality of life" here? Do you really want to force, for example, the kind of players who care passionately about housing furniture limits into trials in order to increase them?

Quality of life could be 'anything' that is attractive to the player base. Furniture limits..um..I don't think that'll happen for some reason!

VaranisArano

Youyouz06 wrote: »

adriant1978 wrote: »

Youyouz06 wrote: »

Introducing more elements for 'quality of life' via trials so that players engage in them more (even normal mode)

What do you mean by "quality of life" here? Do you really want to force, for example, the kind of players who care passionately about housing furniture limits into trials in order to increase them?

Quality of life could be 'anything' that is attractive to the player base. Furniture limits..um..I don't think that'll happen for some reason!

I have seen threads from housing enthusiasts complaining about how furnishing recipes and achievement furnishings are locked behind DLC dungeons and trials. For example, there's not that many boats for housing, so some were miffed that the Nord fishing boat requires an achievement from Vet Kyne's Aegis.

So...
A. ZOS already does this with various rewards, including stuff attractive to housing enthusiasts.
B. Not all housing enthusiasts appreciate it, as they would rather not have to progress to the point of doing Vet trials in order to get what they want.

It's worth keeping that in mind when asking ZOS to do more like that.

Paulytnz

Youyouz06 wrote: »

Hi OP,

I kind of get your position vis à vis end game and the progression side of ESO.

I would agree that in a more realistic 'world', different zones would propose varying difficulty levels. Logic right?
You could venture to a zone and be confronted by mobs which are a higher level than you, hence asking for help, hence using your companion to it's full potential, hence joining a guild..etc etc.

I think what OP is getting at is that ESO is a bit of a theme park and I get that feeling too.

End game is veteran trials with the hopes of passing trifectas (hard to setup in the current context of ESO)
End game is housing (Should it be though as there is no real perk outside of storage chests)
End game is PvP (You have spent time accumulating gear and knowledge, but it's unplayable outside of BG's)

So all in all I get your frustration, OP. I think when you have spent a lot of time in the game like myself and probably OP, you suddenly feel a bit stumped and don't know what to do...and/or things you 'want' to do just don't want 'you'.

This is exactly what I think some people mean when they say "there is no progression" etc. What they actually mean is "there is no direction for me , I don't know what I should do in game now".

Believe me I have played very grindy games (Runescape for example, my char will be 20 years old there this Oct). I don't play games like that anymore if I can help it. I create my own goals, my own direction. Having said that I only started playing ESO about 2 years ago now. I felt the progression from lvl 3 to max+ was perfectly fine. It got me to a level of understanding the game enough to be able to do most things now as well as being confident enough with my chars to try new things such as dungeons etc. Yes I walk through overland easily now, but that's ok I have other stuff in the game to do, I don't need to be forced to "level up more" to be able to do any further content.

I have my goals, my directions for my time in this game now. I don't need "gear treadmills" like WOW does it). I don't need more vertical progression, we have the sideways here and that's fine (only really the green tree for me to clear now....). I don't need the game to tell me, okay you need another level in fishing before you can catch that next awesome fish, or you need that next level in strength or pick any blue Champ Point name in the tree here for that next 5 more points of damage. I don't need that carrot on the stick.

What I am saying is, maybe the OP was just burnt out or lacks motivation/direction. I see it a lot with people even when I was playing Guildwars 2 which is sort of in a similar situation to here.

But as I said I have my goals/directions and I am guessing they are things that perhaps most players in the game don't even think about or never thought of. Some examples:

1 - I have searched all over the net for monster drop info/tables - there are none, they don't exist! So I plan to do that in time once I have other goals done.

2 - Similar to the monster drop info, I find very little info about the Stealing/pickpocket system and again with their drops and what you can actually get from it. I have already started on this and have some info. I expect to find more info regarding Furniture Drops etc as I already have, again info I couldn't find anywhere else on the net.

3 - I do Housing. Currently I have 54 houses. I try to create race houses (1 for Nord, Bosmer etc) as well as have showcase houses. By showcase I mean I build a house and throw into it every single furniture for say kitchen/dining, or say bedroom stuff. I even have a house (enchanted Snow Globe) with a Floor built right across the whole space halfway up and nothing but trees in it. Why do I do this? So I can see ALL AVAILIABLE options for me when I furnish my "proper" houses. I can also show them to guildies or friends if they say something like "I don't do housing because I don't know what to put in it" or "I don't know what the best looking XXX piece of furniture is for this room or that". I can say to them - come to my bedroom showcase house and you can see EVERY bed available in the game and I can tell you how to get it (I have a spreadsheet with all that info) or I can make it for you. They can see them all, at a glance and even try jumping on them or whatever lol.

4 - I have every race and class in the game so I can fully explore their skills/various differences.

5 - I gather info about where the best spots are for "looting". By looting I mean both stealing and what I call "free looting" which is from containers such as wardrobes/crates etc where it is not considered stealing - it's free to take. This is all part of my info gathering for furnishing of course.

Ok so I have given 5 examples and I have plenty more stuff I am doing and am planning to do. So much so, that I have about 15 different spreadsheets with many tabs contained within each for all my info/data lol....

TLDR. In some games like these you have to find your own goals/direction. Find what's fun for YOU. If you do get burnt out - it can happen and does, it's ok to take a break and come back later. I had many breaks in my Runescape days and Guildwars 2 as well. In fact one such break from Guildwars landed me here and I haven't gone back. And if I am off the mark with my comments here regarding the OP, that's fine I am sure they may apply to someone reading this.

PS - I also very strongly think that this is why ZOS like to and are constantly adding new things to the game for us to do. Things to give us new possible goals/directions. Such as Antiquities, the Justice system when it was added (which was before my time here), companions and I am sure many more to come. It's things like this that keep me here and turned me away from Guildwars. It's more content, it's more stuff I can do if I wish to without the game saying "okay you have to do this now if you want.....". It kind of just says "you can do this if you want to now, you wont get any stronger or anything" but, it can still be something to do, fun and a reason to keep on playing. I really like that.

SilverBride

Athan1 wrote: »

When you first start the game, everything is a mission, even killing a mudcrab. As you level up, you get weaker and weaker instead of stronger. Once you hit CP160 the game suddenly becomes easy breezy. After hitting the cap you only get stronger and stronger as you accumulate more CP. When you create new chars that have access to CP from the get-go they are OP from level 1.

I didn't get weaker as I leveled and I didn't notice any huge change when I hit CP160. And of course you will continue to get stronger as you gain CP, but it's gradual.

TigerSeptim wrote: »

Here in ESO there's also (supposedly) a mini-story about how you bring peace to areas one by one. But that doesn't hold water when the mobs in said areas keep attacking.

Actually there are some areas where the mobs no longer attack. There are some skeletons on Bleakrock Isle that no longer attack me after completing the quest there. There is also a spot, I don't remember where, where bugs stopped attacking me.

Deter1UK

Darkstorne wrote: »

I think there's a good argument to be made for finding a middle ground though, where every zone has a mix of easier scaled content, and then harder end-game content. Brand new Skyrim players will find they can attack a giant camp right outside Whiterun for example, but that it won't end well for them. They quickly learn that tough-looking enemies are actually tough. Giants and mammoths are best left alone at low levels, bears and sabre cats are reason for caution, but wolves and bandits are fair game.

Reminds me of Asheron's Call in the '90s - you had to choose your route carefully across the map if running solo, especially in mountains, the more remote the terrain the worse the critters were. That worked well.

Sylvermynx

SilverBride wrote: »

Athan1 wrote: »

When you first start the game, everything is a mission, even killing a mudcrab. As you level up, you get weaker and weaker instead of stronger. Once you hit CP160 the game suddenly becomes easy breezy. After hitting the cap you only get stronger and stronger as you accumulate more CP. When you create new chars that have access to CP from the get-go they are OP from level 1.

I didn't get weaker as I leveled and I didn't notice any huge change when I hit CP160. And of course you will continue to get stronger as you gain CP, but it's gradual.

TigerSeptim wrote: »

Here in ESO there's also (supposedly) a mini-story about how you bring peace to areas one by one. But that doesn't hold water when the mobs in said areas keep attacking.

Actually there are some areas where the mobs no longer attack. There are some skeletons on Bleakrock Isle that no longer attack me after completing the quest there. There is also a spot, I don't remember where, where bugs stopped attacking me.

In Glenumbra, after you deal with the Wyrd Tree situation, the bears and wolves are neutral. The Lurchers, however, are not.

NettleCarrier

There are a lot of games out there with vertical progression, there are very few with horizontal progression like this one. The entire design style doesn't fit with what you are looking for in a game, and that's okay. There's a lot of us that don't want to play on a gear treadmill month after month constantly seeking the new best thing and that's okay too - this is where ESO shows itself to be the game for us.

For the record, I'm CP 1830 - I'm very far from the "beginning" and even still feel like I could improve massively in my dps rotations to become a stronger player.

Sylvermynx

NettleCarrier wrote: »

There are a lot of games out there with vertical progression, there are very few with horizontal progression like this one. The entire design style doesn't fit with what you are looking for in a game, and that's okay. There's a lot of us that don't want to play on a gear treadmill month after month constantly seeking the new best thing and that's okay too - this is where ESO shows itself to be the game for us.

For the record, I'm CP 1830 - I'm very far from the "beginning" and even still feel like I could improve massively in my dps rotations to become a stronger player.

Yes. The gear treadmill in WoW and RIFT was a pretty hefty part for me of the fun going out of those games over the years I played them. When the level in whichever WoW expansion it was went to 100, I sat and stared at the screen for a long time, thinking about the grueling grind to 90, and then considering the bad taste in my mouth about that expansion (I think it might have been Warlords of Draenor, not sure now) and another hamster cage grind for another ten levels.... I quit. "Cold turkey" as it were - canceled 7 accounts, never been back. Same happened with RIFT, though I wasn't there as long.

This game is a refreshing breath of air with the lack of vertical progression in gear and levels.

francesinhalover

VaranisArano wrote: »

All games have a lifespan - eventually everyone gets tired and leaves the game, no matter which game we're talking about.

This is not going to sound very nice, but it's not necessarily a problem if a segment of the playerbase is getting bored and leaving. That was going to happen regardless.

It IS a problem if a substantial portion of the playerbase who dislikes the game design and is leaving once they've "maxed out" what they can do...and unfortunately for your ideas here, that's already happened in the opposite way you want. The playerbase told the Devs they wanted Horizontal Progression.

Specifically, it happened with pre-One Tamriel's Vertical Progression, and it led the ESO Devs to transform ESO into exactly the type of Horizontal Progression you don't like. Feedback from their playerbase pushed the Devs to radically transform ESO away from its original Vertical design where you got more powerful and outleveled old content to the current design where the whole game is open to you by CP 300, brand new players can jump straight into the latest content, and your Progression is more dependent on your personal skill and willingness to grind for new gear as the meta shifts.

And so while it's good to tell the Devs what you want, I can't help but feel that the good ship "One Tamriel" has already sailed and we're not going back to Vertical Progression.

idk man, there's legit people with 10 years of WOW meanwhile you don't find that in es, everyone gets tired eventualy of it.

Sylvermynx

francesinhalover wrote: »

idk man, there's legit people with 10 years of WOW meanwhile you don't find that in es, everyone gets tired eventualy of it.

I spent 7 years in WoW and 3 after that in RIFT. I was absolutely thrilled to leave both games behind. And when I stumbled across ESO.... well.... I'm 3+ years here, and pretty much not going to leave until the servers go dark.

VaranisArano

francesinhalover wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

All games have a lifespan - eventually everyone gets tired and leaves the game, no matter which game we're talking about.

This is not going to sound very nice, but it's not necessarily a problem if a segment of the playerbase is getting bored and leaving. That was going to happen regardless.

It IS a problem if a substantial portion of the playerbase who dislikes the game design and is leaving once they've "maxed out" what they can do...and unfortunately for your ideas here, that's already happened in the opposite way you want. The playerbase told the Devs they wanted Horizontal Progression.

Specifically, it happened with pre-One Tamriel's Vertical Progression, and it led the ESO Devs to transform ESO into exactly the type of Horizontal Progression you don't like. Feedback from their playerbase pushed the Devs to radically transform ESO away from its original Vertical design where you got more powerful and outleveled old content to the current design where the whole game is open to you by CP 300, brand new players can jump straight into the latest content, and your Progression is more dependent on your personal skill and willingness to grind for new gear as the meta shifts.

And so while it's good to tell the Devs what you want, I can't help but feel that the good ship "One Tamriel" has already sailed and we're not going back to Vertical Progression.

idk man, there's legit people with 10 years of WOW meanwhile you don't find that in es, everyone gets tired eventualy of it.

Well, hard to say that when ESO is only 7 years old...and we do see players who've stuck with it since Beta.

Give it a few more years, and you'll have ten year veterans of ESO too.

Sylvermynx

VaranisArano wrote: »

francesinhalover wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

All games have a lifespan - eventually everyone gets tired and leaves the game, no matter which game we're talking about.

This is not going to sound very nice, but it's not necessarily a problem if a segment of the playerbase is getting bored and leaving. That was going to happen regardless.

It IS a problem if a substantial portion of the playerbase who dislikes the game design and is leaving once they've "maxed out" what they can do...and unfortunately for your ideas here, that's already happened in the opposite way you want. The playerbase told the Devs they wanted Horizontal Progression.

Specifically, it happened with pre-One Tamriel's Vertical Progression, and it led the ESO Devs to transform ESO into exactly the type of Horizontal Progression you don't like. Feedback from their playerbase pushed the Devs to radically transform ESO away from its original Vertical design where you got more powerful and outleveled old content to the current design where the whole game is open to you by CP 300, brand new players can jump straight into the latest content, and your Progression is more dependent on your personal skill and willingness to grind for new gear as the meta shifts.

And so while it's good to tell the Devs what you want, I can't help but feel that the good ship "One Tamriel" has already sailed and we're not going back to Vertical Progression.

idk man, there's legit people with 10 years of WOW meanwhile you don't find that in es, everyone gets tired eventualy of it.

Well, hard to say that when ESO is only 7 years old...and we do see players who've stuck with it since Beta.

Give it a few more years, and you'll have ten year veterans of ESO too.

Yeah, and had I gone with my gut feeling instead of listening to my daughter and granddaughter I'd have been here that long too. But sometimes.... Well, I just wasn't at that point looking for another MMO....

Iccotak

While there is an end game to reach. I think a problem that the OP has is that the endgame is almost exclusively group content, while the solo content (which is the majority of the game) is on the same difficulty for everyone for the whole play through no matter your level.

All the story content is the same difficulty no matter the context of the story.

A Bandit chief and a Dragon Priest are the difficulty. Which makes no sense.

The only places where things are more challenging on the map are the world Bosses and Dolmens.

Which they have been making increasingly harder. Which perpetuates this problem where harder content in the zone is a complete 180 from everything else.

There is not much middle ground between general trash mobs & delve bosses vs a world boss or Domen

I think they’re fun, but I think it’s fair to question if the experience of the map overall is balanced well.

Maybe the map could have a better gradual experience from easy to progressively harder and harder.

Rather than it feeling like there is only two choices on the extreme opposite ends of the spectrum.

matterandstuff

Like many other ESO players, I don't actually want to unexpectedly run into overland content that's going to require the assistance of other players for me to complete.

If I want to do a world boss or a dragon, I can decide to rock up at those places at times of day when it's almost certain that there will be people there already seeking to do the same thing (or who will be along very shortly to do it). It's a pretty seamless experience, and that makes it far less frustrating.

For an example, there's a boss (not even a group event) in Old Orsinium in Wrothgar that's got a far-reaching, rapid-spinning AOE that's just impossible for my Orc to get past at this point. It's not challenging, it's just extremely annoying, and it caused me to ditch a Wrothgar run out of rage for the time being. The Old Orsinium quest is sitting in my quest log until I can be bothered bashing my way through DLC public dungeon trash mobs to get back to that boss and twiddling my thumbs until someone else comes along to help, or arrange for some guildies to help me nuke my way through it all, which is harder to arrange because people don't expect to be asked for help to do public dungeon content.

If they did that kind of thing more often, I'd ragequit the game in pretty short order. I play ESO as an escape from things that are stressful, annoying and joyless, not for more of it.

xAarionx

Iccotak wrote: »

While there is an end game to reach. I think a problem that the OP has is that the endgame is almost exclusively group content, while the solo content (which is the majority of the game) is on the same difficulty for everyone for the whole play through no matter your level.

.

You actually mey be partially Right, not entirely, But that would take me to another aspect that i Have issue with the game.
See, I Love Group content, I wouldn't be playing an online game if not for that

But I ran across some article some days ago talking about on of the gret crisis of MMO genre in general that is the lack o sociability

"But op ESO has a lot of social functions"

True, but there is less and less incentives to actually use the. I remember my time playing ragnarok, that I would be exploring a real hard dungeon, that I would be just wait outside for some group o looking for someone to play it with me. thats how a made friends and even met my clan for the rest of the time I played the game! - Thats another factor that kept me atached

You would actually be forced to interact and create groups. It would be advatagious for you to find a group o friends that has the same goals of you, and to run around with these people, many Guilds were born actually Like these. a group of strangers just join up to level together and end up forming a constant team

And you would have to do that constantly, everything in the game would be far more easy and enjoyable if you have a group with you.

But, for some reason mmo lost this touch, I don't se people really having any incentive to go around and form big groups to explore the world, This is not true only for ESO, But I've read criticism of this kind for a load of other MMO. And they actually blame the dungeon finder system a lot for that.

And I Can see why, In ESO, Trials are the only really thing in the game that you actually have some incentive for you to do in group, Because, even veteran dun mostly I would do in random Groups, even the suposedly group content of the game I'm able to do solo.

Dungeon Finder actually is a system that favor a lot of Lone plays, and really cut out that part of MMOs that explore the need of affilliation. The things that you do in the game, you can easily do alone, So, what is the real need for making a group of friend and exploring together?

And no This is not a "Wish this game wa more like these one" I just pointing out some aspect of another game and how it affects the overall experience with that in terms of social interactions inside the game.. and the fact that affects hiow people stay in the game, is not a personal opinion, but well established common sense that modern MMOs fail to keep the majority of players attached to them.

(In fact some more pessimistic analysis talk about death of the genre in a few years)

I've read In another article another day the "Modern MMO are more like single player games with stranges around" And I can't help to agree with that statement. In the one, it blames the current generation of gamers that don't want to really work and earn their achivements. and I also can agree with that.

SilverBride

xAarionx wrote: »

But I ran across some article some days ago talking about on of the gret crisis of MMO genre in general that is the lack o sociability.

I have game friends I chat with while playing, and we check out each other's houses, and we occasionally group up at our discretion. Being social does not mean you have to include others in everything you do.

xAarionx wrote: »

The things that you do in the game, you can easily do alone, So, what is the real need for making a group of friend and exploring together?

There isn't a need to explore together, thankfully, because I like doing these things at my own pace. But the option is there for those who'd like to.

What I don't understand is it bothers some players that others prefer to play solo.

xAarionx

SilverBride wrote: »

xAarionx wrote: »

But I ran across some article some days ago talking about on of the gret crisis of MMO genre in general that is the lack o sociability.

I have game friends I chat with while playing, and we check out each other's houses, and we occasionally group up at our discretion. Being social does not mean being joined at the hip.

xAarionx wrote: »

The things that you do in the game, you can easily do alone, So, what is the real need for making a group of friend and exploring together?

There isn't a need to explore together, thankfully, because I like doing these things at my own pace. But the option is there for those who'd like to.

What I don't understand is why it bothers some players that others prefer to play solo.

Becouse that's not The purpose of an MMO. If you want a solo game, why bother to go to an online experience?
People have the option, yes, but what's incentive?

That's one of the reasons that most of MMO (not only ESO, I need to point out again, and not the Only reason) Are failing to keep their players in the game. and, again that's not a personal opinion, just look at the data of the genre for the last years and will see what i'm talking about.

So, the problem is that you may personally like to play alone. But that doen't mean it's good for the game overall.

DinoZavr

@xAarionx, strange you did not noticed @Thoragaal reply.
Business owners' priorities and customers priorities, in most of cases, are different.
Easy vs. Hard content are two different things: the former is about attracting new players, the later is about retaining veteran players.
New players tend to spend more money on Crowns to get shiny mounts, costumes, furnishings, while seasoned players know how to get most of this stuff with the ingame gold. So, no surprise, overland is made ridiculously easy.
If you were to choose what you would better invest your funds: in attracting new players or retaining old ones what would you prefer? Budget and man-hours are not the infinite resources, right?

Reaching CP400 takes about 2-3 months of playing on average.
Only Zenimax has statistics regarding the levels of players who quit the game. Or guild leaders may have a good insight of what level players they remove for inactivity. From my observation many players quit at CP90, not even reaching CP160, not because they are lazy, but because they lose interest after completing the main quest and yheirs Alliance base game storyline.
Surprisingly enough, this is not "the lack of progression" what causes players to quit.
Many hardcore players stopped theirs efforts due to performance degradation in recent 2 years.
Causal players leave when they run out of easy content.

I play mostly solo and after 2 years i still have goals to reach. Finished all soloable base game 4-men on normal, now doing on vet, still struggling with DLC dungeons even on normal (like Frostvault which is damn hard, or Black Drake villa with this fetching Mino boss) - just for the sport of it. This is where i get this feeling of progression: like first time completing Selene's Web on vet solo - is quite an adrenaline rush. And there are hard modes too.
So is the PVP: it is always challenging and you understand if you are getting better at it, or not.
From this point of view: you set your own goals and apply some efforts to achieve them - ESO offers quite a lot.
In my opinion, this is not ESO flaws what cause players to get bored and quit - this is mostly because they want new content to be delivered to them with barely no efforts from theirs side. Blackwood, heavily packed on release, is quite barren at this time, because zone quest and side quests could be done in a week, maybe two. Furnishing recipes drops from the zone are abysmal, so only few hardcore farmers had not yet lost the interest to the result of half of year Zenimax efforts.

You can always find challenging content, as the game is HUGE, and, if not performance issues are your main obstacle - keep playing for years.
in my humble opinion "Mainstreaming" helps Zeni to retain casual players. Unless they run out of easy content, they keep playing, and, hopefully, spend their money on the game. Retaining old players is quite a different business priority.

But, yes, i agree, overland could be done harder. Like bosses in dungeons are progressively harder, like mobs evolve depending on the number of mobs you have killed (like in Horizon Zero Dawn). CP2.0 offers way less progression feeling than CP1.0. A good field for improvement if developers ever decide to make sensation of players' progression theirs main priority.

SilverBride

xAarionx wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

What I don't understand is why it bothers some players that others prefer to play solo.

Becouse that's not The purpose of an MMO. If you want a solo game, why bother to go to an online experience?
People have the option, yes, but what's incentive?

That's one of the main reason that most of MMO (not only ESO, I need to point out again) Are failing to keep their players in the game. and, again that's not a personal opinion, just look at the data of the genre for the last years and will see what i'm talking about.

So, the problem is that you may personally like to play alone. But that doen't mean it's good for the game overall.

I thought the purpose of an MMO was entertainment.

The fact that multiple others are playing at the same time does not obligate me to befriend and spend all my time with them. If I spend my day questing by myself how is that negatively affecting other players who don't even know who I am?

People don't group up with their friends to do every single thing they do in real life, so why would we have to in a game? When you go to the grocery store do you bring a friend along? Do you announce to strangers in the store that you are forming a group to check out the produce area? Some things just don't require a group.

MMOs give you the option to interact with others as much or as little as you wish. They do not demand it, nor should they.

Wolfenbelle

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

@xAarionx you're not quite right. Player progression is not only due to increased level, cp and more powerful equipment. You forget about the skill. The player progresses primarily due to the fact that he learns to play. The better you play, the better you get at tasks. Further, achievements, difficult XM are waiting for you. However, there is a problem here. I already wrote on the forum that the overwhelming majority of players do not know how to play and are afraid to even try veteran content. Part of your truth is that the average player has nothing to do. It is already too strong to have the benefit and fun of overland content, and high end content takes a lot of time, energy and SKILLED PEOPLE WHO ARE READY TO PLAY WITH YOU WHEN YOU HAVE TIME.

You are missing a very important aspect of your statement, "skilled people who are ready to play with you." I've been in the game since pre-launch in March 2014. I've found group play very disappointing due to: (1) toxic players who BULLY others if the others don't measure up to the toxic player's demands, and (2) players who group but go their own way, such as those who race ahead of the rest of the group and basically play solo.

xAarionx

@xAarionx, strange you did not noticed @Thoragaal reply.

Wich One? I didn't kept on point with all answers

But Overall I agree with you with the whole business thing.

SilverBride wrote: »

I thought the purpose of an MMO was entertainment.

GROUP entreteirment
The whole idea behind an online game is playing with othe people. it makes no sense go online if you want to go alone, thats an obvious logic. MMO genre target audiences that want that group experience, since it's beginning, becouse we have already Single players RPG to target people who want only solo experience. that's the whole uniqueness of MMO genre, take that away and, congratulations, you just killed the genre.
You can make some content for the ones who like to do solo. but making your whole game soloable you are killing the whole purpose of making it online.

xAarionx

Wolfenbelle wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

@xAarionx you're not quite right. Player progression is not only due to increased level, cp and more powerful equipment. You forget about the skill. The player progresses primarily due to the fact that he learns to play. The better you play, the better you get at tasks. Further, achievements, difficult XM are waiting for you. However, there is a problem here. I already wrote on the forum that the overwhelming majority of players do not know how to play and are afraid to even try veteran content. Part of your truth is that the average player has nothing to do. It is already too strong to have the benefit and fun of overland content, and high end content takes a lot of time, energy and SKILLED PEOPLE WHO ARE READY TO PLAY WITH YOU WHEN YOU HAVE TIME.

You are missing a very important aspect of your statement, "skilled people who are ready to play with you." I've been in the game since pre-launch in March 2014. I've found group play very disappointing due to: (1) toxic players who BULLY others if the others don't measure up to the toxic player's demands, and (2) players who group but go their own way, such as those who race ahead of the rest of the group and basically play solo.

For myself I've never had problems with group content, in fact, the comunity here is ESO is better than most of other MMO, surely I had my share of Troll and Toxic people who take offense to someone just askying politely for a loot, or Demand that you give their loot to them, You believe that you should play their way, But those are minor issues, honestly

My biggest problem in this matter was that I didn't manage to stay atached to any of them, I had only 3 Other people that I managed to link with and do stuff together with them, because, it's undeniable that ESO does offer you little to no incetive to do things in groups with your buddies.

SilverBride

xAarionx wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I thought the purpose of an MMO was entertainment.

GROUP entreteirment

The option for group entertainment exists, but that is not its only focus. If it was there wouldn't be any solo content, of which there is plenty.

xAarionx wrote: »

The whole idea behind an online game is playing with othe people. it makes no sense go online if you want to go alone, thats an obvious logic. MMO genre target audiences that what that grooup experience, since it's began, becouse whe have already Single players RPG
You can make some contant for the opne who like to do solo. but making your whole game soloable you are killing the whole purpose of making it online.

I do play with other people, when I want and how I want, but most of my time is spent doing solo activities. Why is it illogical for me to play an MMO and deny myself making friends in game just because I don't want someone following me around all day?

There are a lot of casual players who enjoy solo activities as well as players who prefer to group. If MMOs only tried to appeal to the group players they would lose a lot of their playerbase.

We all enjoy different things, so it's good business that MMOs include something for all playstyles, not just one small portion of the playerbase.

xAarionx

SilverBride wrote: »

xAarionx wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I thought the purpose of an MMO was entertainment.

GROUP entreteirment

The option for group entertainment exists, but that is not its only focus. If it was there wouldn't be any solo content, of which there is plenty.

Care to explain to Me how an ONLIne game, should not Focus on Group Content?
"Oh he should focus on all kinds"
And become mediocre in all of them

Why is it Illogical for me to play an MMO and deny myself making friends in game just because I don't want someone following me around all day?

I already answered that
If you don't get it than no need for me to repeat myself

It's one thing to have an online group game with some soloable content, other entirely to have a solo game who happens to have some online content. ESO, and sadly, many others, fall into the latest category today.

SilverBride

xAarionx wrote: »

Care to explain to Me how an ONLIne game, should not Focus on Group Content?
"Oh he should focus on all kinds"
And become mediocre in all of them...>

ESO does focus on group content. There is PvP, and World Bosses and Harrowstorms and Dragons in the open world, as well as Normal and Veteran dungeons, trials and arenas. But it also focuses on solo content, such as questing and crafting and housing. And I feel it does both quite well.

xAarionx wrote: »

It's one thing to have an online group game with some soloable content, other entirely to have a solo game who happens to have some online content. ESO fall into the latest category today.

MMOs have evolved over the years as their playerbase changed. They strive to appeal to the casual player as well as the hard core end game players, and I think ESO is doing a pretty good job of it.

xAarionx

SilverBride wrote: »

xAarionx wrote: »

Care to explain to Me how an ONLIne game, should not Focus on Group Content?
"Oh he should focus on all kinds"
And become mediocre in all of them...>

ESO does focus on group content. There is PvP, and World Bosses and Harrowstorms and Dragons in the open world, as well as Normal and Veteran dungeons, trials and arenas. But it also focuses on solo content, such as questing and crafting and housing. And I feel it does both quite well.

Also from all these contents, only Trials are Really something That you Can't do without a group. Even veteran dungeaon are soloable if you are good enough.
Also The Dungeon Finder feature creates the possibility that you just run around, do the dungeon, and be done with It, not as something i would call a real group experience, Becouse it kills the social aspect of it.

MMOs have evolved over the years as their playerbase changed. They strive to appeal to the casual player as well as the hard core end game players, and I think ESO is doing a pretty good job of it.

And in the end, you see the results, they Fail to excel in both, as the downfall of the genre shows.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

There is really no progression in ESO. The game is absurdly easy out of the gate, and then Vet Content or PVP hits you in the face like a truck.

There used to be progression. This game use to be challenging at low levels. The result now is a game mostly based on skill and a massive gap in player power, not from gear, but from the ability to press buttons.

I do like that skill is rewarded, but I don't like that the game spoon feeds you until you toggle vet or encounter another player with a pulse that wants to kill you.

SilverBride

xAarionx wrote: »

Also from all these contents, only Trials are Really something That you Can't do without a group. Even veteran dungeaon are soloable if you are good enough.

I'm not good enough. I can only solo a few of the easiest normal dungeons and I bet I'm not alone.

xAarionx wrote: »

And in the end, you see the results, they Fail to excel in both, as the downfall of the genre shows.

What downfall?