The Gold Road Chapter – which includes the Scribing system – and Update 42 is now available to test on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/656454/
The maintenance is complete, and the PTS is now back online and patch 10.0.2 is available.
Critical Surge rework
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MadeInVN✭✭✭✭the1andonlyskwex wrote: »First off, the correct math for the chance of proccing crit surge in a given second is pretty straightforward. It's as follows:
(proc chance)=1-(1-(crit chance))^(number of damage instances)
So, with a 30% crit chance, you have a 30% chance of proccing it with one instance of damage, a 51% chance with 2 instances of damage, a 66% chance with 3 instances of damage, and a 76% chance with 4 instances of damage, etc.
As you can see, the proc chance gets pretty high very quickly, and as a result, crit surge is one of the most reliable sources of sustained healing in the game.
Also, since when is spamming Dizzying Swing a "burst combo"? If that's all it takes to play stamsorc, I'm clearly playing the wrong class.
But it still has a low chance of proccing every second, and a high chance of proccing 2-3 times in a 4 GCD test. Reliability = always procs when you want. Proccing randomly is not reliable.
The tests were done using someone else’s premise claiming 3 sources of damage will proc crit surge every second. It’s clearly not the case in the video. Moreover, if you think spamming dizzying is not a burst combo, then you havent play this class when it had no bound armaments or crystal weapon. Furthermore, any recasting of crystal weapon to be used with dizzying swing would just waste an extra GCD. Therefore spamming dizzy is the best way to burst someone down.0 -
MadeInVN✭✭✭✭ExistingRug61 wrote: »
Sure, that's fair. But the tests do also show a reasonable level of reliability which I think is worth noting.ExistingRug61 wrote: »Here is the video evidence of 15 tests done in a row:
https://youtu.be/6XkyH5puTDo
4 dizzying swings, 4 light attacks, 5 hurricane ticks. 1 or 2 tests had an extra light attack or hurricane tick, but the result is as I expected, only 2/15 tests had 4 crit surge procs. With 3 sources of damage you still cannot reliably proc crit surge every second. The key word here is reliability. Most heal over time abilities are reliable and always procs when you need it to. Even the heals that proc off damage done like blood thirst, leeching vines, green lotus, have a 100% proc chance. Crit surge is the ONLY heal that doesn't have a 100% proc chance. To put it into perspective, the set Scathing Mage's 5th bonus proc condition pre-rework had a chance to proc off critical damage done. Nobody used it. Crit surge is basically like that.
This is the entire point I've been trying to make - Reliability. People who argued that crit surge is great and doesn't need to be changed completely missed my point. Due to the lower crit rate, crit surge is not reliable enough to be used. I don't know why it's so hard to comprehend that.
Ok so lets look at the numbers in your tests.
Unfortunately I couldn't get the video to buffer properly right at the start so I couldn't see the numbers for the first three (too blurry), but from the last 12 tests it looks like there were
1 instance of 1 proc
4 instances of 2 procs
6 instances of 3 procs
1 instance of 4 procs
For an average of 2.583 procs across the 12 test I could see.
From that I would say you are reasonably reliably getting at least 2 procs in 4 sec. Two procs gives slightly better healing than leeching strikes (assuming 4 light attacks) for comparison. With potential for the occasional worse case (of only 14) but a higher chance (when you get 3 or 4 crits) to be significantly better.
So sure, there is an element of rng, but it still seems pretty good. And sure some other other heal off damage skills have different conditions which may be slightly more reliable when used on offense, but none of them have the ability to continue to occasionally passively proc when you go on the defensive as long as you have hurricane (and possible other dots) running. Different pros and cons.
Also, like others have pointed out, critical surge (like leeching strikes) is not meant to be a primary heal but a supplementary one, as its a large part of its purpose (and power budget) is the long duration sorcery/brutality. To try to make it function of a primary heal would have to come at the cost of that, which is not a path I would want to see the skill take.
The tests were meant to prove someone above wrong when he claimed that it could on average proc every second with 3 sources of damage. The video only showed a 13% chance of proccing every second.
Again sure, but remember that crit surges value is actually more than double leaching strikes. And even with your test the average proc rate actually gave 3/4 more often than 2/4 with it significantly better than leeching. So it trades a bit of reliability for and overall better average. Seems reasonable. Different, but reasonable.It would be absurd to have the heal proc every second, as it would instantly become the best passive heal in the game. The reason why I said it’s not reliable even with a 50% proc rate is because you need it to act as a source of constant passive heal to prolong your offensive window. It’s never meant to be your main heal, but it needs to be reliable enough to keep you on the offense or save you from dying. Even though crit surge’s healing is twice as good as leeching vines or leeching strikes, the core advantage that both of those abilities have over crit surge is reliability. When you want to proc the heal, you proc it. This is advantageous because there are situations when the guaranteed heal, even with a smaller tooltip, will save you from death. A heal that gives you 500 hp every second over 6s is much better than one that gives you 1000 hp once every 2 seconds. Both heals give the same amount, but you are more prone to dying between the downtimes of the 2nd heal. Crit surge’s unreliable in that same manner. It has the potential to beat most heal over time effects in the game, but its unreliability makes it not as good as other heals.
Also, in response to this specifically "but it needs to be reliable enough to keep you on the offense or save you from dying". Why? Why is this a requirement? I know some other classes may have this feature, and I understand that its desirable for this to be the case. But that doesn't make it a given and all classes should have weaknesses, perhaps this is one for stamsorc. (I'm not saying the classes are balanced in terms of weaknesses, what I'm saying is that in general classes having some, and different, weaknesses is a good thing for playstyle diversity)
Some of those may not be the best comparison in my mind, as they are still primarily HoTs, whereas in Critical Surge's case even the HoT part is supplementary to the other effect of brutality/sorcery. Also, all those skills have other downsides and reliability issues - there might not be a corpse when you want to start mortal coil, spirit guardian might heal an ally when you need it yourself, your enemy might move out of your rune focus forcing you to follow to stay on offense etc etc. Its all just different pros and cons. Now sure, those downsides may be things that don't matter as much to the type of build you want whereas critical surge's does, but that's all part of building.Crit surge was never meant to be a main heal, everyone knows that. It’s a heal over time effect, hence I compare it to similar abilities like mortal coil, spirit guardian, dark cloak, leeching strikes, warden vines, rune focus heal, etc. It’s the only class heal over time effect that does not guarantee a proc.
This is where I think we simply have a difference of opinion, which is fine. I like that critical surge encourages building a certain way, or rather, I like that it is possible to build in such a way that makes critical surge more effective. Its another point of interest to consider when making a build. Yes, this means that critical surge may not be as effective for certain build paths, but I am happy with that. It makes skills interesting to me. Making it a generic condition that simply always works and works just as effectively no matter how you build, to me that's just boring. You would be losing a mechanic that has been iconic to sorcs for years to do it as well.My suggestion will only slightly nerf stamsorc’s survivability in PvE, but it will literally open up so many build paths for stamsorc. You don’t have to rely on building crit chance anymore, which lets you drop rally to use other weapons. The tooltip has to be nerfed, but it’s for the best.
As an aside, this sort of thing is what I often feel is missing from stam warden and stam necro, which to me makes them somewhat boring (and powerful, in PvP) - everything just kinda "works" in a standard/plain way. There's no real incentive to push to build in different ways to emphasise or synergise with particular skills. Few trade offs. Instead its just stack stats or procs and do the same thing on both classes.
You could also argue that if crit surge was reworked to proc everytime, then you would not be pigeonholed into stacking a certain amount of crit rate to use the ability. As of right now, stamsorc has zero damage mitigation passives OR viable class heal abilities other than crit surge and dark deal. Every build requires slotting streak as a form of escape because the class just lacks tankiness to stay in the fight. I simply want options to not be pigeonholed into playing that way, as I have been for 4 years. When you’ve played like that for so long you tend to see why it sucks.0 -
universal_wrath✭✭✭✭✭ExistingRug61 wrote: »As a separate point, even if it is a problem, why is the go to solution presented always based on the idea of “it would be better if this worked more synergistically for burst (like warden and necro)”. Taking this approach would just pigeonhole all classes a single play style and erode the others.
Uhhhh, stamsorc has been pigeonholed into the hit and run playstyle for a while dude...Less effective heals = more hit and run. It's been like that for almost a year lol
I don't remember a time when sorc could brawle like any other class, even nightblades can stay in fights longer than stamsorc. It has been like this for yearz.1 -
Merforum✭✭✭✭✭Crit surge is more for the 33sec of 20% w/s dmg, the heal is just a bonus. But for stam w/2hnd rally might be better. Sorcs also have the best heal (pet) in the game bar none. Also most sorcs use dark exchange with insanely powerful heal and opposite resource. Just spam dark exchange x3 to get topped off quickly. When compared to Equilibrium as another exchange ability, it doesn't come close to dark Xchng morphs. The cost/benefit should be fixed. Also as stated for PVE crit surge is just fine so no point changing is just for PVP when there are better options already.
ALSO I have one words for you........SITHIS.....0 -
MadeInVN✭✭✭✭universal_wrath wrote: »ExistingRug61 wrote: »As a separate point, even if it is a problem, why is the go to solution presented always based on the idea of “it would be better if this worked more synergistically for burst (like warden and necro)”. Taking this approach would just pigeonhole all classes a single play style and erode the others.
Uhhhh, stamsorc has been pigeonholed into the hit and run playstyle for a while dude...Less effective heals = more hit and run. It's been like that for almost a year lol
I don't remember a time when sorc could brawle like any other class, even nightblades can stay in fights longer than stamsorc. It has been like this for yearz.
I remember when crit chance was easily obtained in PvP and you could just sit at 40% crit chance in medium armor without any precise or thief mundus. Crit surge was great back then. Times changed though, but the ability remains unchanged and that is a problem. Next patch I sit at 23% crit chance in 5 medium with savagery lol.. I don't feel like investing into precise/thief only to get 36% crit chance and lose a bunch of penetration/weapon damage. 36% isn't exactly a good crit chance either...
Crit surge isn't a problem in PvE but in PvP I don't see why people still have it. Many excellent stamsorc mains on different platforms have already dropped the ability. It's no longer the great ability it used to be, and if nothing gets done it would just sit in the skill menu rotting away. Oh well people just don't understand lol1 -
Stx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭You keep saying people don't understand. It's like yes we do, your point is clear. Just because people disagree with you doesn't mean they don't understand.
As you mentioned, crit surge is great in PvE and it remains great for specific crit builds in pvp. I've also seen a lot of stam sorcs not running it in favor of rally and that's perfectly okay... not every ability from your spellbook is going to be useful for every style of build in every aspect of the game. Crit surge is great at what it does. If anything I think it would be worth it to lobby for reverting some of these nerfs to crit chance. I agree with you there.. 23% with savagery is very low. I think in their efforts to homogenize everything, they made a mistake removing crit chance from medium, but that's a completely separate issue than trying to change a staple spell like crit surge.4 -
MadeInVN✭✭✭✭You keep saying people don't understand. It's like yes we do, your point is clear. Just because people disagree with you doesn't mean they don't understand.
No, you actually don't understand why I'm asking for a crit surge rework. Stamsorc does not have any damage mitigation passives or a lot of viable class heals. The most important term here is class heals. I don't care if you tell me or any sorc main to slot rally because we do that already. It's pointless advice.
Telling people to slot rally or whatever universal heal doesn't really solve the issue either, because that's a class balance issue. Everyone can slot rally and vigor, so what does stamsorc bring to the table that makes people want to play it? It used to be dark deal, crit surge, and streak. Now, it's crystal weapon, dark deal, and streak. Crit surge is not good enough in its current state to guarantee a slot on your bar, and that is an issue. It forces the class to abuse streak (which people also complain about) or give up defense/penetration/weapon damage just to proc crit surge more reliably. This creates a situation where you have to give up stats to make 1 ability more reliable, while other classes don't have to because their heals don't have this ridiculous proc condition. It creates a disadvantage for stamsorc players in a fight, so I don't know why you don't want it reworked.
Crit surge's indirect nerf was collateral damage from ZOS's attempt to reduce crit chance's dominance in PvE. My suggestion would simply remove the RNG aspect. It would actually be a buff for the majority of builds. The max heal is lower, sure, but it's more consistent and fits in with every build you make. It also allows people to drop streak because they now have a reliable supplemental heal over time.Edited by MadeInVN on August 16, 2021 12:50AM0 -
universal_wrath✭✭✭✭✭Crit surge is reliable. It has a 100% chance to proc from a critical strike, once per second. How is that not reliable?
Is cauterize not reliable because it only fires off once every 5 seconds? What if you need a heal during those five seconds? Omg buff cauterize!
Or leeching strikes, is it not reliable because you need to constantly be weaving light attacks? What if your target dodges or moves out of range, omg buff leeching strikes!
Critical surge has a condition to meet in order for it to function, like most skills do. Meet the condition, build around the condition, don't call an ability unreliable when you fail to do so. That's like calling molten armaments weak while also not building around heavy attacks. 😕
To end my thoughts for the night. I find it hilarious that at one point, it was said that PvEr's don't need crit surge to survive. But then later saying pvpers need every single tick of crit surge to survive. No, you don't. You have vigor, dark deal, rally if you choose, and critical surge supplements all that, its not a main heal. Not to mention passive speed and streak which was failed to be mentioned earlier when crit surge was compared to spirit guardian of all things. Different classes are different.
Critical surge is damn good and reliable. I'm surprised it hasn't been nerfed already as my stam sorc has much better passive healing than my stamplar or my stamblade. Please don't touch it.
While crit surge proc 100% of crit strike, in pvp, you have 30% chance of proc it per second for each attack, in other words, 70% chance crit surge will not proc for each 1 sec per each attack.
Cauterize is very reliable heal, while it has 5 secs between eqch nurst of heal, you can spam it for heal each time. Leeching strike imo is as as bad as crit surge or maybe slightly better becauae it proc on each LA if it lands but is by no mean a reliable heal.
To build around crit chance in PvP is to loss sustain and damage especialy if your class does not help with passives. From a PvE perspective, DD only stack damage and crit chance for most part and rely on healer/tank for heal and sustain. Crit surge is great in PvE abd I use it on all contents of PvE with or without healer, but I think this thread is toward PvP and I have to agree that is nowhere reliable as any other sustain heal of other classes except for maybe leeching, both maybe eqaul bad. Regarding molten armament, I did the comparison for as it provides a buff for heavy attacks, but that is all to it, it is useless for stamina atleast to use over rally unless the build for heavy attacks which is a very specific builds, and for magicka they only use because they would have to rely on pots of mages guild antropy for magor sorcery buff. You have to build very specificly to be able to use molten armament effectively, otherwise you are better using pots or other skills like rally.
Stamina sorcerer and stamblades or the only classes that have to rely on outside class skills to help them survive unlike other classes that have much better healing and healing/defense modifiers. Stamsorc and streal 2-3 times, but still recieve damage from dots and incoming direct damage during streak and BoL is useless next patch. Many people want to nerf the class because it runs away from fight (hit and run), you can't blame the stamsorcs for doing that if their class passives and or skills offer nothing of help to heal or reduce damage except for few skills that require a specific proc conditions to work.1 -
universal_wrath✭✭✭✭✭Crit surge is more for the 33sec of 20% w/s dmg, the heal is just a bonus. But for stam w/2hnd rally might be better. Sorcs also have the best heal (pet) in the game bar none. Also most sorcs use dark exchange with insanely powerful heal and opposite resource. Just spam dark exchange x3 to get topped off quickly. When compared to Equilibrium as another exchange ability, it doesn't come close to dark Xchng morphs. The cost/benefit should be fixed. Also as stated for PVE crit surge is just fine so no point changing is just for PVP when there are better options already.
It is sad that a class would choose a general skill over its class skill to do the same job but better. As for pets heals, they take space and die very easily especialy the clanfea since it is a melee pet, it usualy dies for random aoe skills in the fight. As for dark deal, it has a fixed tooltip so it does not matter if you have 2k or 6k weapon damage, the healing power will not change, it might crit though. It heals for about 4k in PvP and more if you have heavy armor, only healing bonuses can increase the potency of dark deal heal. It is a cast time, not an instant, meaning it can be inturrept and can't be casted during dodge roll or block which is a big disadvantage. Once inturrept, it goes on cooldown and many times you need to swap bars back and forth to be able to recast it again. If you see a sorc doing dark deal on full heals, big gaint red flag he is out of resource, go kill him.1 -
MashmalloMan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Simple math is better evidence than a sample size of 3... sorry.
Three instances of damage per second at 33% crit chance will allow crit surge to proc once per second (on average over time). That's just the truth.
Thats not how math for probability works. 33% chance in 3 instances does not equal 33 + 33 + 33 for 99/100.
1 - 0.33 = 0.67 (chance it would fail)
0.67 * 0.67 * 0.67 = 0.3 (chance it would fail in 3 instances)
1 - 0.3 = 0.7 (total chance to succeed)
70% chance to get a heal every second with 33% crit chance and 3 ticks of damage a second.
PC Beta - 1900+ CP
Stam Sorc Khajiit PvE/PVP Main || Stam Sorc Dark Elf PvP ||
Stam Templar Dark Elf || Stam Warden Wood Elf || Stam DK Nord || Stam Necro Orc || Stam Blade Khajiit
Mag Sorc High Elf || Mag Templar High Elf || Mag Warden Breton || Mag Necro Khajiit || Mag Blade Khajiit0 -
MashmalloMan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I'm not saying I agree to the change proposed, but to the point at hand, you do need to invest into crit a little bit for this skill to be worth it's weight in the next patch and it's been loosing it's value for years. It use to be much simpler to get 30-40% crit chance passively. 10% base, 10% major savagery, 7.5 to 10.5% via 5 to 7 Med, 1 crit line on a piece of gear for 3.8% and you were sitting at 31-34%. CP also use to give 12% crit chance before they reduced it to 9% then the stupid low 1.4% it is now.
In the current patch, it's 10% base, 12% major savagery, 0% med. You're are 22%.. meaning you now need at lest 3 lines of crit on your gear for +9% to hit 31%. Maybe a precise 2h weapon for 7% instead or Thief mundus for a similar amount... the point is, why bother? Just avoid crit chance with Rally entirely, you get to void RNG, while getting more raw damage or healing via investing into Weapon Damage and/or Penetration. The 2 strongest stats in pvp that both happen to be required for proc sets now. This is the meta for stam sorcs, build for burst.
Building for crit chance works against you, it's not pve where you parse a target for 2 minutes straight to get a reliable average, you fight for a few seconds before dipping out, then rotating buffs, going on offensive or defensive, to which you may get 0 ticks or one every second. Thats RNG.
Not to mention that if you're relying on crit to kill someone, you have to consider everyone starts with -20% crit damage resist with possibly another -10% if they have 5 impen. The class doesn't have any crit damage modifiers, a class like NB, Templar or Warden get much more benefit from investing into crit chance and guess what, they still don't do it (usually).
Plus.. why bother with Crit Chance which is just better RNG with lower damage, when you can invest into Crit Damage with Mechanical Acuity for guaranteed crits. I've personally tried to make a crit build kitty work and I found my survivability didn't really increase all too much, while my damage severely lacked. Maybe I did something wrong, but choosing crit chance in different parts of your build is not free, it costs more important stats that do so muh more.
Again, not saying I agree with OP's change, but the skill has lost a lot of it's spunk over the years, one more recent aspect was the fact that VAT 2H is a good burst option for Stam Sorcs and if you're using Rally, Vigor and Dark Deal, there is just no point or room on your bar for Crit Surge.. let alone Camo Hunter for Major Savagery or Crit Pots. Just forget the skill and major savagery, slot Rally, VAT 2H and Malacath to get excellent burst and burst healing for when you need it.
TLDR: I hope they just change class minor buffs to be hybridized. Getting 6% crit chance for stam sorcs would help make the skill worth using even if you don't have crit on any gear, but you at least still need major savagery, while keeping the function the same. It sucks that stam sorc, mag blade, stamplar and mag DK get no benefit from their 20s group buff and it's been that way for 7 years.With the update this patch to some of the passives to make them hybrid, I hope ZOS finally tackles this issue.Edited by MashmalloMan on August 16, 2021 6:23AMPC Beta - 1900+ CP
Stam Sorc Khajiit PvE/PVP Main || Stam Sorc Dark Elf PvP ||
Stam Templar Dark Elf || Stam Warden Wood Elf || Stam DK Nord || Stam Necro Orc || Stam Blade Khajiit
Mag Sorc High Elf || Mag Templar High Elf || Mag Warden Breton || Mag Necro Khajiit || Mag Blade Khajiit2 -
Stx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I would never drop streak because that's what makes stamsorc so much fun to me compared to my other toons. When I think of spec defining abilities, I think of streak first, dark deal second,MashmalloMan wrote: »Simple math is better evidence than a sample size of 3... sorry.
Three instances of damage per second at 33% crit chance will allow crit surge to proc once per second (on average over time). That's just the truth.
Thats not how math for probability works. 33% chance in 3 instances does not equal 33 + 33 + 33 for 99/100.
1 - 0.33 = 0.67 (chance it would fail)
0.67 * 0.67 * 0.67 = 0.3 (chance it would fail in 3 instances)
1 - 0.3 = 0.7 (total chance to succeed)
70% chance to get a heal every second with 33% crit chance and 3 ticks of damage a second.
I know. Someone else has already provided the correct math and although mine is wrong, my point stands. Crit surge is very reliable and wanting to change the ability is fine but saying you want it to proc guaranteed every second doesn't mean it currently isn't reliable you just want it to be different.1 -
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MadeInVN✭✭✭✭I would never drop streak because that's what makes stamsorc so much fun to me compared to my other toons. When I think of spec defining abilities, I think of streak first, dark deal second,MashmalloMan wrote: »Simple math is better evidence than a sample size of 3... sorry.
Three instances of damage per second at 33% crit chance will allow crit surge to proc once per second (on average over time). That's just the truth.
Thats not how math for probability works. 33% chance in 3 instances does not equal 33 + 33 + 33 for 99/100.
1 - 0.33 = 0.67 (chance it would fail)
0.67 * 0.67 * 0.67 = 0.3 (chance it would fail in 3 instances)
1 - 0.3 = 0.7 (total chance to succeed)
70% chance to get a heal every second with 33% crit chance and 3 ticks of damage a second.
I know. Someone else has already provided the correct math and although mine is wrong, my point stands. Crit surge is very reliable and wanting to change the ability is fine but saying you want it to proc guaranteed every second doesn't mean it currently isn't reliable you just want it to be different.
It's not reliable when you are being defensive. When you're trying to roll dodge or block incoming damage, you can't apply 3 instances of damage. The most you can do is have hurricane tick along with whatever dots you put on someone, but a burst build doesn't have that luxury. Leeching strikes suffer from the same issue. In fact, any heal that requires you to be offensive to work suffer from that, but crit surge is the worst due to its RNG aspect.
Other heal over time effects like rune, purify heal, vines, mortal coil, dark cloak, etc, are more reliable even with lower tooltips.1 -
MadeInVN✭✭✭✭I'm not asking for crit surge to suddenly work like mortal coil or dark cloak. I'm asking for ZOS to remove the RNG aspect so you will always have it procced with hurricane ticks. It still requires a burst player to stay in the fight if they want to benefit from the tick, but it gives them that reliability to let them stay in the fight for longer. Is that too much to ask for?0
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Stx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I'm not asking for crit surge to suddenly work like mortal coil or dark cloak. I'm asking for ZOS to remove the RNG aspect so you will always have it procced with hurricane ticks. It still requires a burst player to stay in the fight if they want to benefit from the tick, but it gives them that reliability to let them stay in the fight for longer. Is that too much to ask for?
I mean, considering your proposal will nerf the ability for pve significantly, I think it is too much to ask for. Saying PvE players just don't matter isn't a useful defense either.
Can you tell me again why you would rather change crit surge than ask for power surge to be changed? Power surge currently sees much less use, and could easily be changed to fit the vision you have for this ability that doesn't rely on crit chance.1 -
jaws343✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I'm not asking for crit surge to suddenly work like mortal coil or dark cloak. I'm asking for ZOS to remove the RNG aspect so you will always have it procced with hurricane ticks. It still requires a burst player to stay in the fight if they want to benefit from the tick, but it gives them that reliability to let them stay in the fight for longer. Is that too much to ask for?
Sorc's already suffer from forum witch hunts as it is. Having basically a free heal every second with no chance of failure would not be a good idea. Even in half, it's still a ton of healing.
Just looking at base tooltips of a fairly average mag sorc build (Alfiq, Grace, Domi/Swarm, Death Dealer), with no CP:
Crit Surge: 3300 health per second
Rapid Regen: 21200 health over 5 seconds. Or 4240 per second.
But, Rapid Regen has to be cast every 5 seconds to keep it up, and it can land on other players instead of yourself. Crit surge you cast once, and for 33 seconds you heal a total of 108,900 damage if it procced every second with no condition, or 54,450if you halved it. (Yes I know it gets reduced even more in PVP, but so does Rapid Regen, so base tooltip comparison is fine).
Crit Surge, without the crit requirement, even for half the healing power, would be insanely overpowered. I'd love it, but it would make sorcs unkillable with even a medium amount of offensive pressure. Especially when paired with healing boosts. And even more so when stacked with other sources of heal over time. Keeping it tied to critical damage is fine and prevents it from becoming very OP.
Edited by jaws343 on August 16, 2021 6:33PM2 -
danno8✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I think the skill has lost some value with all the nerfs to crit over the last year or two.
Perhaps a reduction in the internal CD from 1 second to .5-.75 seconds with a reduction in the heal value to 80% of it's current value would result in more reliable procs but less powerful heals but an overall buff to the HPS.
I think any skill or gear or trait that relies on crit should have a pass done by ZoS to make sure that they are still performant to the level ZoS intended them to be at given recent crit nerfs.0 -
the1andonlyskwex✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'm not asking for crit surge to suddenly work like mortal coil or dark cloak. I'm asking for ZOS to remove the RNG aspect so you will always have it procced with hurricane ticks. It still requires a burst player to stay in the fight if they want to benefit from the tick, but it gives them that reliability to let them stay in the fight for longer. Is that too much to ask for?
I mean, considering your proposal will nerf the ability for pve significantly, I think it is too much to ask for. Saying PvE players just don't matter isn't a useful defense either.
Can you tell me again why you would rather change crit surge than ask for power surge to be changed? Power surge currently sees much less use, and could easily be changed to fit the vision you have for this ability that doesn't rely on crit chance.
Taking skills (even mediocre ones) away from sorc healers to give PvP sorcs a buff would be like robbing a homeless person and giving the money to Bill Gates.0 -
MadeInVN✭✭✭✭I'm not asking for crit surge to suddenly work like mortal coil or dark cloak. I'm asking for ZOS to remove the RNG aspect so you will always have it procced with hurricane ticks. It still requires a burst player to stay in the fight if they want to benefit from the tick, but it gives them that reliability to let them stay in the fight for longer. Is that too much to ask for?
Sorc's already suffer from forum witch hunts as it is. Having basically a free heal every second with no chance of failure would not be a good idea. Even in half, it's still a ton of healing.
Just looking at base tooltips of a fairly average mag sorc build (Alfiq, Grace, Domi/Swarm, Death Dealer), with no CP:
Crit Surge: 3300 health per second
Rapid Regen: 21200 health over 5 seconds. Or 4240 per second.
But, Rapid Regen has to be cast every 5 seconds to keep it up, and it can land on other players instead of yourself. Crit surge you cast once, and for 33 seconds you heal a total of 108,900 damage if it procced every second with no condition, or 54,450if you halved it. (Yes I know it gets reduced even more in PVP, but so does Rapid Regen, so base tooltip comparison is fine).
Crit Surge, without the crit requirement, even for half the healing power, would be insanely overpowered. I'd love it, but it would make sorcs unkillable with even a medium amount of offensive pressure. Especially when paired with healing boosts. And even more so when stacked with other sources of heal over time. Keeping it tied to critical damage is fine and prevents it from becoming very OP.
You are assuming that the magsorc is constantly dishing out damage. You have to look at an actual fight for analysis. A good magsorc will kite his opponents until he can single them out for an easy kill. You can't heal with crit surge while you're kiting, but you can with rapid regen. The ability to heal while not being hit is extremely valuable because that's how you actually get your HP up. Crit surge healing while being on the offense only helps your HP stay at where it was. It doesn't actually get your HP up.
If halved, crit surge's healing after battle spirit is around 800 per tick. That's the same as dark cloak with 30k HP, but you get the benefit of not requiring a target to heal. If I'm forcing myself to stay in a fight to heal up, then I expect my heal to be reliable, and not work on absurd RNG proc condition.0 -
MadeInVN✭✭✭✭I'm not asking for crit surge to suddenly work like mortal coil or dark cloak. I'm asking for ZOS to remove the RNG aspect so you will always have it procced with hurricane ticks. It still requires a burst player to stay in the fight if they want to benefit from the tick, but it gives them that reliability to let them stay in the fight for longer. Is that too much to ask for?
I mean, considering your proposal will nerf the ability for pve significantly, I think it is too much to ask for. Saying PvE players just don't matter isn't a useful defense either.
Can you tell me again why you would rather change crit surge than ask for power surge to be changed? Power surge currently sees much less use, and could easily be changed to fit the vision you have for this ability that doesn't rely on crit chance.
I mean, the whole crit chance nerf was intended for PvE, no? Having PvP indirectly affected without giving PvPers any compensation is just absurd. If I were a ZOS dev, I would just revert the crit chance nerf and nobody would complain, but that isn't happening anytime now is it?
I actually did propose for a power surge buff on my other forum account but that went nowhere because the forums for some reason always goes on a crusade against sorcs in general. The reason why I don't want power surge buffed is because:
1) I'm a solo player and it's more appropriate to suggest a change to single target heals.
2) Power surge is already being used by sorc healers, and any change to that would make sorc healers too strong compared to other classes.
3) Power Surge requires you to heal to proc it. It's a morph specifically for healers. A DPS isn't gonna slot power surge since it limits their kill window.
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