Critical Surge rework

MadeInVN

First let me just say that Critical Surge is very strong when you can proc it reliably. I wouldn’t ask for a buff to an ability that may cause imbalance, but this is simply not the case anymore.

With the removal of medium armor crit chance, Critical Surge has become very unreliable as a form of self heal. You would have to sacrifice an entire 5-bonus set to get your crit chance up to a workable amount (usually around 35%). In comparison, a stamblade can get past 30% crit chance by simply existing.

What’s even more confusing for me in terms of game design is that while stamblade is a class that is built around critical damage, its offensive self heal (Leeching Strikes) does not require dealing critical damage. Meanwhile, a stamsorc’s offensive self heal requires dealing critical damage, but the class has zero crit chance bonuses…

You can argue that the light/heavy attack condition of Leeching Strikes makes it harder for stamblade to use reliably, but any good stamblade weaves a lot of light/medium attacks in their combo. Not only that, but the proc condition fully supports a hit and run playstyle because you don’t have to deal with randomness. While Critical Surge’s advantage is being able to proc on any sources of damage, it is much more unreliable as a self heal in a hit and run build compared to Leeching Strikes. It also requires you to stack as many damage sources as possible, while being near as many people as possible to maximize your chance of proccing it. It simply doesn’t make sense with how the class was built.

What I want to propose is a slight rework to Critical Surge to make it more efficient compared to other offensive self heals. I’d suggest removing the crit damage condition altogether, giving the ability a 100% proc chance. However, the tooltip also needs to be adjusted to a much lower value for balance reasons. I’d say halving the healing value is a good start.

Some people may disagree with my proposal, but I think everyone can agree that Critical Surge in the current patch feels very lack luster.

Stx

Critical surge is anything but lackluster. It has a straightforward purpose and it does its job very well.

Instead, why don't you lobby for a change to power surge, which is the morph I feel most players have never used. I think it's supposed to be some kind of healer morph but it does its job very poorly.

Giraffon

Critical Surge is kind of sucky now if you remember how it used to be, but I still run it because of the 20% buff. The heals are nice, but I can't rely on this skill alone for heals anymore.

ifDoubtNerfIt

As a stamina dd you should use Vigor anyways, no reason to use critical surge for the heals. It already gives you 20% to weapon and spell damage so the heals not being the best in the game balances the skill out. And on top of that it's a 33s long ability.
Imo, it being a 33s long fire and forget skill even makes it more powerful than most of the self heals in the game.

As a magicka dd you should be able to rely on the heal alone, but if you need burst heals just use flying pet, the damage morph of the pet is lackluster anyways.

TheTruestKing

Your barking up the wrong tree. The only changes to Stam Sorc since wolfhunter have been nerfs with the one exception being CW. Anything that buffs Stam Sorc will never make it live.

MadeInVN

ifDoubtNerfIt wrote: »

As a stamina dd you should use Vigor anyways, no reason to use critical surge for the heals. It already gives you 20% to weapon and spell damage so the heals not being the best in the game balances the skill out. And on top of that it's a 33s long ability.
Imo, it being a 33s long fire and forget skill even makes it more powerful than most of the self heals in the game.

As a magicka dd you should be able to rely on the heal alone, but if you need burst heals just use flying pet, the damage morph of the pet is lackluster anyways.

Vigor is a standard heal, every class has access to that. But when we talk about class heals, every class should have its own reliable class self heals. Stamden has an entire green balance skill line, artic blast, and netch. Stamdk has cauterize and major mending. Stamplar has rune + ritual + living dark. Stamcro has even more healing than stamden with coil + ghost. Stamblade has dark cloak & leeching strikes. Stamsorc has dark deal and crit surge, but crit surge isn’t reliable at all as a self heal. This is the problem that I’m trying to point out. In PvE ppl can stack crit chance and proc it reliably, but in PvP you can’t do that. PvPers have to take into account of every single stat in the game. You can’t really optimize for 1 specific stat like PvE. Having a reliable heal is crucial for any class in PvP to do well, but crit surge isn’t at all.

Stx

I disagree. Even with 33% crit chance, critical surge will proc reliably because it has a 1 second internal cooldown, and most players will be dealing at least 3 instances of damage per second (hurricane tick, light attack, instant spammable, just one example).

The only time you might want to not run it is if you're playing a malacath build, but even then, your crit rate will probably be 25%, which is enough to proc the heal every 2 to 3 seconds when engaging.

Again, I think the focus should be making power surge a better option for non crit builds, because critical surge is excellent at what it does.

RandomKodiak

Please call to have them rework the other morph not crit surge. I understand you are talking PvP not PvE but in the latter crit surge is better and way easier to sustain than Vigor. A rework of the morph no one uses to a PvP morph would be fine but a rework of crit surge would kill one of the few useful sorc skills for PvE sorcs.

MadeInVN

Stx wrote: »

I disagree. Even with 33% crit chance, critical surge will proc reliably because it has a 1 second internal cooldown, and most players will be dealing at least 3 instances of damage per second (hurricane tick, light attack, instant spammable, just one example).

The only time you might want to not run it is if you're playing a malacath build, but even then, your crit rate will probably be 25%, which is enough to proc the heal every 2 to 3 seconds when engaging.

Again, I think the focus should be making power surge a better option for non crit builds, because critical surge is excellent at what it does.

You do realize that in a real fight, your window of attack is maybe around 10 seconds at best against 3 enemies, and less than 3 seconds against a group of 8+ enemies? If you have to put yourself in a 1v10 situation to reliably force your self heal to work, then that ability is NOT working well.

Power surge will and never should be changed because it is a group heal ability. It would be way too strong if they attempt to buff it. After all, that is why they separated resolving vigor and echoing vigor.

I don’t know what your experience is with stamsorc, but I have many good stamsorc mains who can back me up on this. If you would like to have a more thorough conversation always feel free to join this public discord https://discord.gg/nsXGxPGj

SkaraMinoc

100% agree. Critical Surge is the weakest heal available to Sorcerer. Rapid Regen and Resolving Vigor are much higher heal per second and does not require attacking. I would consider using Critical Surge if it was easier to get Sorcerer crit > 33%.

RandomKodiak

Was not aware (as I said above PvE sorc) that Power was used in PvP my apologies. Then we are back to where it always seems to come to in this game if they reworked Crit Surge for PvP they would probably kill it for PvE where it is incredibly useful. I wish we could more reliably separate the two play styles.

francesinhalover

MadeInVN wrote: »

First let me just say that Critical Surge is very strong when you can proc it reliably. I wouldn’t ask for a buff to an ability that may cause imbalance, but this is simply not the case anymore.

With the removal of medium armor crit chance, Critical Surge has become very unreliable as a form of self heal. You would have to sacrifice an entire 5-bonus set to get your crit chance up to a workable amount (usually around 35%). In comparison, a stamblade can get past 30% crit chance by simply existing.

What’s even more confusing for me in terms of game design is that while stamblade is a class that is built around critical damage, its offensive self heal (Leeching Strikes) does not require dealing critical damage. Meanwhile, a stamsorc’s offensive self heal requires dealing critical damage, but the class has zero crit chance bonuses…

You can argue that the light/heavy attack condition of Leeching Strikes makes it harder for stamblade to use reliably, but any good stamblade weaves a lot of light/medium attacks in their combo. Not only that, but the proc condition fully supports a hit and run playstyle because you don’t have to deal with randomness. While Critical Surge’s advantage is being able to proc on any sources of damage, it is much more unreliable as a self heal in a hit and run build compared to Leeching Strikes. It also requires you to stack as many damage sources as possible, while being near as many people as possible to maximize your chance of proccing it. It simply doesn’t make sense with how the class was built.

What I want to propose is a slight rework to Critical Surge to make it more efficient compared to other offensive self heals. I’d suggest removing the crit damage condition altogether, giving the ability a 100% proc chance. However, the tooltip also needs to be adjusted to a much lower value for balance reasons. I’d say halving the healing value is a good start.

Some people may disagree with my proposal, but I think everyone can agree that Critical Surge in the current patch feels very lack luster.

i use thief mundus, and i have 50% crit more or less atm.
i think (without thief mundus) 30% crit chance might work for crit surge, remember stam sorce has hurricane

MadeInVN

francesinhalover wrote: »

MadeInVN wrote: »

First let me just say that Critical Surge is very strong when you can proc it reliably. I wouldn’t ask for a buff to an ability that may cause imbalance, but this is simply not the case anymore.

With the removal of medium armor crit chance, Critical Surge has become very unreliable as a form of self heal. You would have to sacrifice an entire 5-bonus set to get your crit chance up to a workable amount (usually around 35%). In comparison, a stamblade can get past 30% crit chance by simply existing.

What’s even more confusing for me in terms of game design is that while stamblade is a class that is built around critical damage, its offensive self heal (Leeching Strikes) does not require dealing critical damage. Meanwhile, a stamsorc’s offensive self heal requires dealing critical damage, but the class has zero crit chance bonuses…

You can argue that the light/heavy attack condition of Leeching Strikes makes it harder for stamblade to use reliably, but any good stamblade weaves a lot of light/medium attacks in their combo. Not only that, but the proc condition fully supports a hit and run playstyle because you don’t have to deal with randomness. While Critical Surge’s advantage is being able to proc on any sources of damage, it is much more unreliable as a self heal in a hit and run build compared to Leeching Strikes. It also requires you to stack as many damage sources as possible, while being near as many people as possible to maximize your chance of proccing it. It simply doesn’t make sense with how the class was built.

What I want to propose is a slight rework to Critical Surge to make it more efficient compared to other offensive self heals. I’d suggest removing the crit damage condition altogether, giving the ability a 100% proc chance. However, the tooltip also needs to be adjusted to a much lower value for balance reasons. I’d say halving the healing value is a good start.

Some people may disagree with my proposal, but I think everyone can agree that Critical Surge in the current patch feels very lack luster.

i use thief mundus, and i have 50% crit more or less atm.
i think (without thief mundus) 30% crit chance might work for crit surge, remember stam sorce has hurricane

Are you PvE? If not PvE, are you also in a full crit setup with some traits in crit chance?

MashmalloMan

As someone who has used Crit Surge over Rally for the past 5-6 years, I think I'm swapping it out next patch:

PVE.. completely fine because the skill requires crit, which is the strongest pve stat in the game. Most end game builds will have 50% +. It will be a guaranteed tick once a second. I use this over Vigor all the time, not sure why people are suggesting against it. You press the skill once every 33s for 3.3k - 5k(crits) healing a second.

PVP.. It's been slowly dying patch to patch when it was already not in a favourable state. Stam Sorcs don't usually build for crit chance, the crit we had was mostly passive. As long as you could reach around 30-40%, it was worth slotting. At the time, that was 5-7 Medium (7.5% - 10.5%), Major Savagery (10%) and maybe 1-2 parts on your gear with crit chance (3.8%). So the threshold was doable from a passive standpoint.

In the context of live and PTS.. Medium doesn't offer crit chance at all, light will make you too squishy for melee range even if you wanted the crit chance it offered and you'd probably only slot 1-2 pieces even if you did. Even with 12% major savagery in it's current state, you're at 22-24% crit chance.

It's just not worth it when you consider Rally already gives you the major Brutality you need, along with minor endurance and a burst heal, now coupled with Stam Sorcs favourite weapon, the Vat 2H.. and if you choose this route, then you might as well use Malacath and forget about crit chance entirely.

Malacath + Vat 2H + Rally + NO Major Savagery + NO 3% Crit Chance bonuses on gear in favour of 129 Weapon Damage or Warrior Mundus Stone for example... trumps trying to get your crit to a reasonable level with things like Thief, Daggers, Precise, Crit Chance on gear, etc. You get way higher tooltips, base healing and proc set damage.

Crit Chance is also a bad option to invest into with no additional crit damage built into the class. Even if you did consider it, why not just grab Mechanical Acuity and go strait weapon damage instead since you can guarantee when your crits happen.

Final Thought. Nothing about the skill needs to change, however... I'd like to see the 4 original classes minor group buffs updated to be hybridized and I feel like thats around the corner with how things have been shaping up. This would gives stam sorcs a way of getting +6% crit chance within their kit to help them reach a reasonable level for the skill to work outside pve.

• NB: Minor Force (instead of minor savagery, update Barbed Trap to something else which also introduces build diversity for pve seeing as every single stam/mag build uses Barbed Trap for the minor force. It's boring) - They already have passives for crit chance and sneak guarantees crit. Crit Damage suits them more, which allows sorcs to keep the minor crit buff.
• Sorc: Minor Savagery/Prophecy *combined (fits Crit Surge theme, no need for passives within the kit to change)
• DK: Minor Brutality/Sorcery *combined (brute strength class, fits them better than templar, also no in class buffs to weapon/spell damage and mag DK could use the pick me up)
• Templar: Insert New Minor buff like Max Stam/Mag or a group Penetration bonus(holy class, still gives bonus damage as stam/mag, class now has 6% weapon/spell damage built in) - Rename warhorns max stam/mag to major buffs and let Templars bring the minor version.
• Necro/Warden are great the way they are.

MadeInVN

I'm actually very disappointed to see a lot of people failing to recognize Crit Surge's failure at being a good ability for stamsorc in recent patches. It makes me not want to create threads like this to voice my opinion for the class. Oh well, people are allowed to believe whatever they want but I hope they put in the time to try the ability for themselves to see what I mean.

universal_wrath

MadeInVN wrote: »

I'm actually very disappointed to see a lot of people failing to recognize Crit Surge's failure at being a good ability for stamsorc in recent patches. It makes me not want to create threads like this to voice my opinion for the class. Oh well, people are allowed to believe whatever they want but I hope they put in the time to try the ability for themselves to see what I mean.

In PvE, Surge is the great carry skill after pale order. I do veterashan on vet while on using critical sorc qnd very rarely when I recieve too much damage i use vigor, that is just how great this skill is, you don't just heal from crits, you can also crit heal in PvE A lot with surge.

Now if you talking PvP, it is as bad as molten weapons. Even if you do 2-3 attacks each sec, with 25% crit chance, your odds of proc surge is still low making it unrelaible. Mediocer 1,2k heal every 3-4 for me even while useing rapid strikes that is 6 hit each sec(LA+rapid+hurricane). It works alright when you are outnumbered, but if you are brawling outnumbered on sorc you probably die due to the class lacking resistance and healing modfiers. You need to stack in crit for surge to work in PvP, otherwise it is useless only for brutality and sorcery buff, but if you stack crit you loss damage because you need two 2 sets to pull you up on decent crit rate. Next patch, it is not worth using on stam sorc unless you are wearing MA or you miraculously managed to get 40%+ crit chance with 5k+ weapon damage.now this is for No-CP especially battlegrounds for me, I have no idea how surge works in CP, but I would fare it is going to be the same next patch because even with CP, I cpuld be totally wrong though.

relentless_turnip

Hopefully if the developers continue to hybridise combat we may see sorcs minor prophesy also grant minor savagery and then crit surge would be great again. Next patch my crit chance will be 23% if I change nothing. I dont run crit surge now as rally seems much better and there is no chance I'll use it next patch either.

Stx

Crit surge is absolutely fantastic in most pve scenarios. Any attempt to change the ability would most likely result in a nerf.

I would recommend running rally or power pots if for some reason crit surge doesn't work for your pvp build because you run low crit. But I really don't think the ability is as bad as some players are making it out to be, and the math proves that. Someone also made the comparison to molten armaments being bad... and it's like hello, no its not, but you do have to build around it, which is perfectly fine. Not every ability is going to be great in every scenario or with every build.

MadeInVN

Stx wrote: »

But I really don't think the ability is as bad as some players are making it out to be, and the math proves that.

A picture speaks a thousand words, so here are several tests I've done in game on a dummy to demonstrate my point.

This example is with only hurricane, representing a scenario where you have to play defensive:



1/7 crit on one target, giving 1 tick of crit surge in 6 seconds. This is the worst case scenario btw.

This example is with 3 sources of damage, representing a scenario where you have several seconds to apply your burst combo:



Another worst case scenario with 3 non crit dizzies, 4 non crit hurricane ticks, and only 1 crit light attack out of 3. I got 1 tick of crit surge over 4 seconds.

Yet another example of a worst case scenario:



And another one:




3 back to back examples and the results are the same - I get 1 tick of crit surge heal in 3 seconds despite applying that same combo you mentioned with 3 sources of damage. If I wanted to show you a good case scenario where crit surge procs more than once, it would literally take me a lot more examples. But this is exactly my point - at 28.4% crit chance you simply cannot rely on crit surge to heal you on a BURST BUILD.

Crit surge only really works well if you either have high crit chance or multiple sources of damage. It's not a problem if you are in a build that stacks 5-6 sources of damage, and I actually have a build like that. It's a problem when you are going for more of a bursty playstyle where most of your damage comes from burst instead of sustained pressure. That's what I'm trying to bring up. The fact that a core healing ability relies on RNG is detrimental to any PvP gameplay. What would people think if Spirit Guardian or Leeching Vines had a proc condition similar to crit surge?

I made the comparison between crit surge and leeching strike because both classes play very similarly. Even if a NB and a sorc run the exact same build and do the same rotation, the NB is guaranteed to heal for ~700 hp, while the sorc has a chance at proccing a ~1600 hp heal. The heal is greater, but with a low crit chance you don't always crit for every GCD. Simple math applied to the examples above show that over those 3 seconds, a NB using leeching strikes would have healed for 2100 hp, which is 500 hp more than crit surge's healing. Over the course of a long fight, there is no doubt that crit surge would fall behind even more.

This problem compounds when you have to play defensive and cannot dish out 3 sources of damage like you mentioned (LA, Hurricane, Spammable). While crit surge isn't disadvantaged compared to leeching strikes in this regard, it is at a disadvantage compared to other classes' heal over time abilities that don't require being offensive to heal (warden vines, mortal coil/spirit guardian, cauterize, etc.).

Not only that, but most classes that play a bursty build don't have this kind of RNG heal that forces them to be offensive to heal. The only exception is NB, but their heal has a guaranteed chance as long as you know how to LA weave. If this is the drawback for having streak, then I can't see why NB's leeching strikes shouldn't have an RNG component as well, considering they are also extremely elusive against most players and require specific builds/items/comps to counter.

MadeInVN

I should have included these examples in my OP. Only people who have mained this class before the crit chance nerf will understand why it's not a great ability anymore. To make stuff worse, people are complaining about streak/bol, the only ability that lets a stamsorc survive fights. I've said this before many times but I will say it again: If people want streak/bol nerfed, then crit surge needs to be reworked entirely so stamsorc actually has some survivability to stay in a fight like other classes.

Nord_Raseri

I run a nord stamsorc for pve. My crit ranges 57-67%. I'd like to keep crit surge as is.

MadeInVN

Nord_Raseri wrote: »

I run a nord stamsorc for pve. My crit ranges 57-67%. I'd like to keep crit surge as is.

This is a PvP suggestion

the1andonlyskwex

MadeInVN wrote: »

Crit surge only really works well if you either have high crit chance or multiple sources of damage. It's not a problem if you are in a build that stacks 5-6 sources of damage, and I actually have a build like that. It's a problem when you are going for more of a bursty playstyle where most of your damage comes from burst instead of sustained pressure. That's what I'm trying to bring up. The fact that a core healing ability relies on RNG is detrimental to any PvP gameplay. What would people think if Spirit Guardian or Leeching Vines had a proc condition similar to crit surge?

I made the comparison between crit surge and leeching strike because both classes play very similarly. Even if a NB and a sorc run the exact same build and do the same rotation, the NB is guaranteed to heal for ~700 hp, while the sorc has a chance at proccing a ~1600 hp heal. The heal is greater, but with a low crit chance you don't always crit for every GCD. Simple math applied to the examples above show that over those 3 seconds, a NB using leeching strikes would have healed for 2100 hp, which is 500 hp more than crit surge's healing. Over the course of a long fight, there is no doubt that crit surge would fall behind even more.

Uh, Leeching Strikes heals for 653 per light attack (which occurs once per second, at most).

Critical surge, on the other hand, averages 445 per second with 30% crit chance and only one damage instance per second, but realistically you're going to have at least 2 damage instances per second (a light attack and something else), which immediately brings the average all the way up to 757 per second (and 3 damage instances brings it up to 976 per second, eventually peaking as high as 1485 per second).

Based on that, I'd say Critical Surge comes out ahead.

MadeInVN

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

MadeInVN wrote: »

Crit surge only really works well if you either have high crit chance or multiple sources of damage. It's not a problem if you are in a build that stacks 5-6 sources of damage, and I actually have a build like that. It's a problem when you are going for more of a bursty playstyle where most of your damage comes from burst instead of sustained pressure. That's what I'm trying to bring up. The fact that a core healing ability relies on RNG is detrimental to any PvP gameplay. What would people think if Spirit Guardian or Leeching Vines had a proc condition similar to crit surge?

I made the comparison between crit surge and leeching strike because both classes play very similarly. Even if a NB and a sorc run the exact same build and do the same rotation, the NB is guaranteed to heal for ~700 hp, while the sorc has a chance at proccing a ~1600 hp heal. The heal is greater, but with a low crit chance you don't always crit for every GCD. Simple math applied to the examples above show that over those 3 seconds, a NB using leeching strikes would have healed for 2100 hp, which is 500 hp more than crit surge's healing. Over the course of a long fight, there is no doubt that crit surge would fall behind even more.

Uh, Leeching Strikes heals for 653 per light attack (which occurs once per second, at most).

Critical surge, on the other hand, averages 445 per second with 30% crit chance and only one damage instance per second, but realistically you're going to have at least 2 damage instances per second (a light attack and something else), which immediately brings the average all the way up to 757 per second (and 3 damage instances brings it up to 976 per second, eventually peaking as high as 1485 per second).

Based on that, I'd say Critical Surge comes out ahead.

Yes, leeching strike heals for 653 after battle spirit, while crit surge heals for ~1600.

The 3 screenshots simulating a burst combo with 3 sources of damage above show that in 3 seconds crit surge procced once. In those 3 seconds you get 3 leeching strike procs.

653*3 = 1959, 1959 > 1600

Just look at those screen shots…

the1andonlyskwex

MadeInVN wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

MadeInVN wrote: »

Crit surge only really works well if you either have high crit chance or multiple sources of damage. It's not a problem if you are in a build that stacks 5-6 sources of damage, and I actually have a build like that. It's a problem when you are going for more of a bursty playstyle where most of your damage comes from burst instead of sustained pressure. That's what I'm trying to bring up. The fact that a core healing ability relies on RNG is detrimental to any PvP gameplay. What would people think if Spirit Guardian or Leeching Vines had a proc condition similar to crit surge?

I made the comparison between crit surge and leeching strike because both classes play very similarly. Even if a NB and a sorc run the exact same build and do the same rotation, the NB is guaranteed to heal for ~700 hp, while the sorc has a chance at proccing a ~1600 hp heal. The heal is greater, but with a low crit chance you don't always crit for every GCD. Simple math applied to the examples above show that over those 3 seconds, a NB using leeching strikes would have healed for 2100 hp, which is 500 hp more than crit surge's healing. Over the course of a long fight, there is no doubt that crit surge would fall behind even more.

Uh, Leeching Strikes heals for 653 per light attack (which occurs once per second, at most).

Critical surge, on the other hand, averages 445 per second with 30% crit chance and only one damage instance per second, but realistically you're going to have at least 2 damage instances per second (a light attack and something else), which immediately brings the average all the way up to 757 per second (and 3 damage instances brings it up to 976 per second, eventually peaking as high as 1485 per second).

Based on that, I'd say Critical Surge comes out ahead.

Yes, leeching strike heals for 653 after battle spirit, while crit surge heals for ~1600.

The 3 screenshots simulating a burst combo with 3 sources of damage above show that in 3 seconds crit surge procced once. In those 3 seconds you get 3 leeching strike procs.

653*3 = 1959, 1959 > 1600

Just look at those screen shots…

Anybody can cherry pick bad RNG. If I calculate your crit chance from those screenshots, I get only 18.6%.

Stx

Simple math is better evidence than a sample size of 3... sorry.

Three instances of damage per second at 33% crit chance will allow crit surge to proc once per second (on average over time). That's just the truth.

Also, saying this is a pvp suggestion doesn't really help anything, because unlike some abilities which only effect players, crit surge would be changed across the board, most probably nerfing it where it currently shines.

Again, (correct me if I'm wrong) but power surge does not see any use currently. I don't run trials but I've never seen any builds using it. Why not ask for a rework of this morph to make it more useful? Just because it's a group healing focused morph now doesn't mean it needs to stay that way.

MadeInVN

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

MadeInVN wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

MadeInVN wrote: »

Crit surge only really works well if you either have high crit chance or multiple sources of damage. It's not a problem if you are in a build that stacks 5-6 sources of damage, and I actually have a build like that. It's a problem when you are going for more of a bursty playstyle where most of your damage comes from burst instead of sustained pressure. That's what I'm trying to bring up. The fact that a core healing ability relies on RNG is detrimental to any PvP gameplay. What would people think if Spirit Guardian or Leeching Vines had a proc condition similar to crit surge?

I made the comparison between crit surge and leeching strike because both classes play very similarly. Even if a NB and a sorc run the exact same build and do the same rotation, the NB is guaranteed to heal for ~700 hp, while the sorc has a chance at proccing a ~1600 hp heal. The heal is greater, but with a low crit chance you don't always crit for every GCD. Simple math applied to the examples above show that over those 3 seconds, a NB using leeching strikes would have healed for 2100 hp, which is 500 hp more than crit surge's healing. Over the course of a long fight, there is no doubt that crit surge would fall behind even more.

Uh, Leeching Strikes heals for 653 per light attack (which occurs once per second, at most).

Critical surge, on the other hand, averages 445 per second with 30% crit chance and only one damage instance per second, but realistically you're going to have at least 2 damage instances per second (a light attack and something else), which immediately brings the average all the way up to 757 per second (and 3 damage instances brings it up to 976 per second, eventually peaking as high as 1485 per second).

Based on that, I'd say Critical Surge comes out ahead.

Yes, leeching strike heals for 653 after battle spirit, while crit surge heals for ~1600.

The 3 screenshots simulating a burst combo with 3 sources of damage above show that in 3 seconds crit surge procced once. In those 3 seconds you get 3 leeching strike procs.

653*3 = 1959, 1959 > 1600

Just look at those screen shots…

Anybody can cherry pick bad RNG. If I calculate your crit chance from those screenshots, I get only 18.6%.

Those are 3 consecutive screenshots. I actually wanted to show a good RNG screenshot but it took way too long to get it, and that is my entire point of this post… You literally cannot rely on crit surge for healing in a burst build, but other classes have reliable self heals. Do you understand what I’m trying to get across?

ExistingRug61

MadeInVN wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

MadeInVN wrote: »

Crit surge only really works well if you either have high crit chance or multiple sources of damage. It's not a problem if you are in a build that stacks 5-6 sources of damage, and I actually have a build like that. It's a problem when you are going for more of a bursty playstyle where most of your damage comes from burst instead of sustained pressure. That's what I'm trying to bring up. The fact that a core healing ability relies on RNG is detrimental to any PvP gameplay. What would people think if Spirit Guardian or Leeching Vines had a proc condition similar to crit surge?

I made the comparison between crit surge and leeching strike because both classes play very similarly. Even if a NB and a sorc run the exact same build and do the same rotation, the NB is guaranteed to heal for ~700 hp, while the sorc has a chance at proccing a ~1600 hp heal. The heal is greater, but with a low crit chance you don't always crit for every GCD. Simple math applied to the examples above show that over those 3 seconds, a NB using leeching strikes would have healed for 2100 hp, which is 500 hp more than crit surge's healing. Over the course of a long fight, there is no doubt that crit surge would fall behind even more.

Uh, Leeching Strikes heals for 653 per light attack (which occurs once per second, at most).

Critical surge, on the other hand, averages 445 per second with 30% crit chance and only one damage instance per second, but realistically you're going to have at least 2 damage instances per second (a light attack and something else), which immediately brings the average all the way up to 757 per second (and 3 damage instances brings it up to 976 per second, eventually peaking as high as 1485 per second).

Based on that, I'd say Critical Surge comes out ahead.

Yes, leeching strike heals for 653 after battle spirit, while crit surge heals for ~1600.

The 3 screenshots simulating a burst combo with 3 sources of damage above show that in 3 seconds crit surge procced once. In those 3 seconds you get 3 leeching strike procs.

653*3 = 1959, 1959 > 1600

Just look at those screen shots…

Yes but in that combo you could also have got 2, 3 or even more crits and got 3200 or 4800 healing.

And given your crit chance of 28.4%, those cases are more likely than the worst case rng you have presented given there are 10 attacks in the period.

So even with no major investment in crit, you will still be getting on average more healing than leeching strikes given the numbers and example presented.

As a separate point, even if it is a problem, why is the go to solution presented always based on the idea of “it would be better if this worked more synergistically for burst (like warden and necro)”. Taking this approach would just pigeonhole all classes a single play style and erode the others. How about suggesting something that builds on a unique class theme or mechanic to refinforce that play style, rather than watering it down until we end up with 6 class that are all just warden/necro clones. To this end, alternatives like trying to find more ways to get synergy in class such as hybridising the minor buff, may suit better.

MadeInVN

Stx wrote: »

Simple math is better evidence than a sample size of 3... sorry.

Three instances of damage per second at 33% crit chance will allow crit surge to proc once per second (on average over time). That's just the truth.

Also, saying this is a pvp suggestion doesn't really help anything, because unlike some abilities which only effect players, crit surge would be changed across the board, most probably nerfing it where it currently shines.

Again, (correct me if I'm wrong) but power surge does not see any use currently. I don't run trials but I've never seen any builds using it. Why not ask for a rework of this morph to make it more useful? Just because it's a group healing focused morph now doesn't mean it needs to stay that way.

Okay and your simple math is wrong lmao. The entire point of this thread is to eliminate the RNG aspect of crit surge. You should get in the game and replicate my test simulating a REAL fight. I don’t care if you parse down a dummy over 30 seconds. That doesn’t prove anything. A real fight consists of small burst windows and a lot of defensive plays. A burst window lasts somewhere between 1 second and 6s at best. Use your 30% crit chance and do 100 tests of crit surge within that burst window. You are not giving any credible evidence to back up your claim, while I have. Please give me your samples

MadeInVN

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

MadeInVN wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

MadeInVN wrote: »

Crit surge only really works well if you either have high crit chance or multiple sources of damage. It's not a problem if you are in a build that stacks 5-6 sources of damage, and I actually have a build like that. It's a problem when you are going for more of a bursty playstyle where most of your damage comes from burst instead of sustained pressure. That's what I'm trying to bring up. The fact that a core healing ability relies on RNG is detrimental to any PvP gameplay. What would people think if Spirit Guardian or Leeching Vines had a proc condition similar to crit surge?

I made the comparison between crit surge and leeching strike because both classes play very similarly. Even if a NB and a sorc run the exact same build and do the same rotation, the NB is guaranteed to heal for ~700 hp, while the sorc has a chance at proccing a ~1600 hp heal. The heal is greater, but with a low crit chance you don't always crit for every GCD. Simple math applied to the examples above show that over those 3 seconds, a NB using leeching strikes would have healed for 2100 hp, which is 500 hp more than crit surge's healing. Over the course of a long fight, there is no doubt that crit surge would fall behind even more.

Uh, Leeching Strikes heals for 653 per light attack (which occurs once per second, at most).

Critical surge, on the other hand, averages 445 per second with 30% crit chance and only one damage instance per second, but realistically you're going to have at least 2 damage instances per second (a light attack and something else), which immediately brings the average all the way up to 757 per second (and 3 damage instances brings it up to 976 per second, eventually peaking as high as 1485 per second).

Based on that, I'd say Critical Surge comes out ahead.

Yes, leeching strike heals for 653 after battle spirit, while crit surge heals for ~1600.

The 3 screenshots simulating a burst combo with 3 sources of damage above show that in 3 seconds crit surge procced once. In those 3 seconds you get 3 leeching strike procs.

653*3 = 1959, 1959 > 1600

Just look at those screen shots…

Yes but in that combo you could also have got 2, 3 or even more crits and got 3200 or 4800 healing.

And given your crit chance of 28.4%, those cases are more likely than the worst case rng you have presented given there are 10 attacks in the period.

So even with no major investment in crit, you will still be getting on average more healing than leeching strikes given the numbers and example presented.

As a separate point, even if it is a problem, why is the go to solution presented always based on the idea of “it would be better if this worked more synergistically for burst (like warden and necro)”. Taking this approach would just pigeonhole all classes a single play style and erode the others. How about suggesting something that builds on a unique class theme or mechanic to refinforce that play style, rather than watering it down until we end up with 6 class that are all just warden/necro clones. To this end, alternatives like trying to find more ways to get synergy in class such as hybridising the minor buff, may suit better.

Alright then I’ll just post a video since nobody here actually gives real evidence

MadeInVN

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

As a separate point, even if it is a problem, why is the go to solution presented always based on the idea of “it would be better if this worked more synergistically for burst (like warden and necro)”. Taking this approach would just pigeonhole all classes a single play style and erode the others.

Uhhhh, stamsorc has been pigeonholed into the hit and run playstyle for a while dude...Less effective heals = more hit and run. It's been like that for almost a year lol