The Gold Road Chapter – which includes the Scribing system – and Update 42 is now available to test on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/656454/
Maintenance for the week of April 29:
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – April 29
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – April 29
The maintenance is complete, and the PTS is now back online and patch 10.0.2 is available.
Critical Surge rework
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Stx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭[snip] Just use rally if you don't want to build around crit surge. Don't request changes to an amazing ability because it doesn't fit your specific pvp build.
[Edited for Rude/Insulting comments]Edited by ZOS_GabeS on August 16, 2021 5:14PM7 -
Nord_Raseri✭✭✭✭✭
✭Nord_Raseri wrote: »I run a nord stamsorc for pve. My crit ranges 57-67%. I'd like to keep crit surge as is.
This is a PvP suggestion
Regardless, changing a skill is changing a skill. Hence, it affects pve stamsorcs.Veit ég aðég hékk vindga meiði á nætr allar níu, geiri undaðr og gefinn Oðni, sjálfr sjálfum mér, á þeim meiði er manngi veit hvers hann af rótum rennr.0 -
MadeInVN✭✭✭✭Nord_Raseri wrote: »Nord_Raseri wrote: »I run a nord stamsorc for pve. My crit ranges 57-67%. I'd like to keep crit surge as is.
This is a PvP suggestion
Regardless, changing a skill is changing a skill. Hence, it affects pve stamsorcs.
Yea it makes stamsorc a little squishier, and that's a problem because?? If anyone cannot survive without crit surge in PvE that's probably an issue they need to address.0 -
Nord_Raseri✭✭✭✭✭
✭
It's a great skill for pve but not as great for pvp, and that's a problem because??Nord_Raseri wrote: »Nord_Raseri wrote: »I run a nord stamsorc for pve. My crit ranges 57-67%. I'd like to keep crit surge as is.
This is a PvP suggestion
Regardless, changing a skill is changing a skill. Hence, it affects pve stamsorcs.
Yea it makes stamsorc a little squishier, and that's a problem because??
Not once did I say I cannot survive without it. What I will say, is because of it, I need vigor a little less which helps sustain and over all dps. It sounds like you need to figure out your build without changing others'If anyone cannot survive without crit surge in PvE that's probably an issue they need to address.Veit ég aðég hékk vindga meiði á nætr allar níu, geiri undaðr og gefinn Oðni, sjálfr sjálfum mér, á þeim meiði er manngi veit hvers hann af rótum rennr.4 -
MadeInVN✭✭✭✭This is embarrassing. Just use rally if you don't want to build around crit surge. Don't request changes to an amazing ability because it doesn't fit your specific pvp build.
It's embarrassing that you and the other guy keep claiming that it's "simple" math, yet havent shown a single screenshot or video backing up your claim. Then when I showed my evidence you and him resorted to saying that my evidence aren't accurate, and when I actually want to back my claim up you resort to telling me that I should just use another ability. Seriously dude, if you can't back up your claims don't make a counterargument.
'Seriously dude', you haven't backed anything up, you took some pics and are trying to use a hilariously small sample size to justify the usefulness of an ability...
Why on earth would I need to take screenshots to back up a claim that 33% crit = 1 out of 3 attacks will proc crit surge = 3 instances of damage per second will proc crit surge on average once per second. Don't be silly. Get some sleep 😴
I am making a video as we speak with a 20 sample size. Is that enough for you? lmaoWhy on earth would I need to take screenshots to back up a claim that 33% crit = 1 out of 3 attacks will proc crit surge = 3 instances of damage per second will proc crit surge on average once per second. Don't be silly. Get some sleep 😴
Your "simple math" only applies to a PvE scenario. No good player is gonna stand still and let you "use 3 attacks" to proc crit surge every 1 second. There are down times in a fight where you can only apply 1 instance of dmg from hurricane. Your math also fails to look at the crit rate. You don't always crit every 3 attacks. You aren't even showing any examples in game. You're just assuming that your math will work when a simple test in game can prove you wrong lmao...Edited by MadeInVN on August 15, 2021 6:39AM1 -
MadeInVN✭✭✭✭Nord_Raseri wrote: »
It's a great skill for pve but not as great for pvp, and that's a problem because??Nord_Raseri wrote: »Nord_Raseri wrote: »I run a nord stamsorc for pve. My crit ranges 57-67%. I'd like to keep crit surge as is.
This is a PvP suggestion
Regardless, changing a skill is changing a skill. Hence, it affects pve stamsorcs.
Yea it makes stamsorc a little squishier, and that's a problem because??
Not once did I say I cannot survive without it. What I will say, is because of it, I need vigor a little less which helps sustain and over all dps. It sounds like you need to figure out your build without changing others'If anyone cannot survive without crit surge in PvE that's probably an issue they need to address.
Because you fight actual players in PvP that also want to min max everything and grab every advantage they can get, and when 2 equally good players fight the one with weaker heals/damage will lose. Whereas in PvE bosses and adds are given a fixed amount of dmg and HP with fixed mechanics and once you pass that healing/dmg threshold you can breeze through the content. [snip]
Great, you will just have to use vigor a bit more for solo content, and in trials you don't use vigor a lot anyways. Instead of fixing the core issues of this class you're telling people to fix their build, and you're talking to a seasoned stamsorc main that's tried every build possible in this game. [snip]
[Edited for Rude/Insulting comments]Edited by ZOS_GabeS on August 16, 2021 5:22PM0 -
Nord_Raseri✭✭✭✭✭
✭Nord_Raseri wrote: »
It's a great skill for pve but not as great for pvp, and that's a problem because??Nord_Raseri wrote: »Nord_Raseri wrote: »I run a nord stamsorc for pve. My crit ranges 57-67%. I'd like to keep crit surge as is.
This is a PvP suggestion
Regardless, changing a skill is changing a skill. Hence, it affects pve stamsorcs.
Yea it makes stamsorc a little squishier, and that's a problem because??
Not once did I say I cannot survive without it. What I will say, is because of it, I need vigor a little less which helps sustain and over all dps. It sounds like you need to figure out your build without changing others'If anyone cannot survive without crit surge in PvE that's probably an issue they need to address.
Because you fight actual players in PvP that also want to min max everything and grab every advantage they can get, and when 2 equally good players fight the one with weaker heals/damage will lose. Whereas in PvE bosses and adds are given a fixed amount of dmg and HP with fixed mechanics and once you pass that healing/dmg threshold you can breeze through the content. [snip]
Great, you will just have to use vigor a bit more for solo content, and in trials you don't use vigor a lot anyways. Instead of fixing the core issues of this class you're telling people to fix their build, and you're talking to a seasoned stamsorc main that's tried every build possible in this game. [snip]
I've been maining a stamsorc since 2015. I've also been heavily into pvp for 5 years with multiple builds in use(to be fair I only use stam). [snip]
[Edited for quote, rude comments]Edited by ZOS_GabeS on August 16, 2021 5:24PMVeit ég aðég hékk vindga meiði á nætr allar níu, geiri undaðr og gefinn Oðni, sjálfr sjálfum mér, á þeim meiði er manngi veit hvers hann af rótum rennr.3 -
Stx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭This is embarrassing. Just use rally if you don't want to build around crit surge. Don't request changes to an amazing ability because it doesn't fit your specific pvp build.
It's embarrassing that you and the other guy keep claiming that it's "simple" math, yet havent shown a single screenshot or video backing up your claim. Then when I showed my evidence you and him resorted to saying that my evidence aren't accurate, and when I actually want to back my claim up you resort to telling me that I should just use another ability. Seriously dude, if you can't back up your claims don't make a counterargument.
'Seriously dude', you haven't backed anything up, you took some pics and are trying to use a hilariously small sample size to justify the usefulness of an ability...
Why on earth would I need to take screenshots to back up a claim that 33% crit = 1 out of 3 attacks will proc crit surge = 3 instances of damage per second will proc crit surge on average once per second. Don't be silly. Get some sleep 😴
I am making a video as we speak with a 20 sample size. Is that enough for you? lmaoWhy on earth would I need to take screenshots to back up a claim that 33% crit = 1 out of 3 attacks will proc crit surge = 3 instances of damage per second will proc crit surge on average once per second. Don't be silly. Get some sleep 😴
Your "simple math" only applies to a PvE scenario. No good player is gonna stand still and let you "use 3 attacks" to proc crit surge every 1 second. There are down times in a fight where you can only apply 1 instance of dmg from hurricane. Your math also fails to look at the crit rate. You don't always crit every 3 attacks. You aren't even showing any examples in game. You're just assuming that your math will work when a simple test in game can prove you wrong lmao...
Nope! Math is math, it applies everywhere. Whether you are beating on a dummy for 30 minutes straight or attacking someone in a 3 second burst window 100 separate times, math still exists!2 -
MadeInVN✭✭✭✭Nord_Raseri wrote: »Nord_Raseri wrote: »
It's a great skill for pve but not as great for pvp, and that's a problem because??Nord_Raseri wrote: »Nord_Raseri wrote: »I run a nord stamsorc for pve. My crit ranges 57-67%. I'd like to keep crit surge as is.
This is a PvP suggestion
Regardless, changing a skill is changing a skill. Hence, it affects pve stamsorcs.
Yea it makes stamsorc a little squishier, and that's a problem because??
Not once did I say I cannot survive without it. What I will say, is because of it, I need vigor a little less which helps sustain and over all dps. It sounds like you need to figure out your build without changing others'If anyone cannot survive without crit surge in PvE that's probably an issue they need to address.
Because you fight actual players in PvP that also want to min max everything and grab every advantage they can get, and when 2 equally good players fight the one with weaker heals/damage will lose. Whereas in PvE bosses and adds are given a fixed amount of dmg and HP with fixed mechanics and once you pass that healing/dmg threshold you can breeze through the content. Why is this even a question lmao?
Great, you will just have to use vigor a bit more for solo content, and in trials you don't use vigor a lot anyways. Instead of fixing the core issues of this class you're telling people to fix their build, and you're talking to a seasoned stamsorc main that's tried every build possible in this game. Seriously stop embarrassing yourself.
I've been maining a stamsorc since 2015. I've also been heavily into pvp for 5 years with multiple builds in use(to be fair I only use stam). By your logic, does this magically make me more knowledgeable than you? If not, sto talking down to people and thinking you're somehow better or your playstyle is more important. The only embarrassing thing I see here is your hollow arrogance. Good day.
My apologies if that sounded a little offensive, but you have to understand that when you make comments like that, you don't really sound like a seasoned stamsorc main. ,Why did you even ask that question in the first place? If you are experienced in PvP you should fully know how one small disadvantage can decide the fight between 2 equally skilled players.
I play all playstyles. But I also believe in build diversity, and there are no build diversities for stamsorc. It's either running a gimmick build one shotting people in full damage, be a CC bot, or be subplar to the rest of the classes in normal builds.
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MadeInVN✭✭✭✭This is embarrassing. Just use rally if you don't want to build around crit surge. Don't request changes to an amazing ability because it doesn't fit your specific pvp build.
It's embarrassing that you and the other guy keep claiming that it's "simple" math, yet havent shown a single screenshot or video backing up your claim. Then when I showed my evidence you and him resorted to saying that my evidence aren't accurate, and when I actually want to back my claim up you resort to telling me that I should just use another ability. Seriously dude, if you can't back up your claims don't make a counterargument.
'Seriously dude', you haven't backed anything up, you took some pics and are trying to use a hilariously small sample size to justify the usefulness of an ability...
Why on earth would I need to take screenshots to back up a claim that 33% crit = 1 out of 3 attacks will proc crit surge = 3 instances of damage per second will proc crit surge on average once per second. Don't be silly. Get some sleep 😴
I am making a video as we speak with a 20 sample size. Is that enough for you? lmaoWhy on earth would I need to take screenshots to back up a claim that 33% crit = 1 out of 3 attacks will proc crit surge = 3 instances of damage per second will proc crit surge on average once per second. Don't be silly. Get some sleep 😴
Your "simple math" only applies to a PvE scenario. No good player is gonna stand still and let you "use 3 attacks" to proc crit surge every 1 second. There are down times in a fight where you can only apply 1 instance of dmg from hurricane. Your math also fails to look at the crit rate. You don't always crit every 3 attacks. You aren't even showing any examples in game. You're just assuming that your math will work when a simple test in game can prove you wrong lmao...
Nope! Math is math, it applies everywhere. Whether you are beating on a dummy for 30 minutes straight or attacking someone in a 3 second burst window 100 separate times, math still exists!
And it doesn't always crit everytime even with 3 sources of damage together. Where is your sample size? So far you have 0 to my 30 -
Stx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭This is embarrassing. Just use rally if you don't want to build around crit surge. Don't request changes to an amazing ability because it doesn't fit your specific pvp build.
It's embarrassing that you and the other guy keep claiming that it's "simple" math, yet havent shown a single screenshot or video backing up your claim. Then when I showed my evidence you and him resorted to saying that my evidence aren't accurate, and when I actually want to back my claim up you resort to telling me that I should just use another ability. Seriously dude, if you can't back up your claims don't make a counterargument.
'Seriously dude', you haven't backed anything up, you took some pics and are trying to use a hilariously small sample size to justify the usefulness of an ability...
Why on earth would I need to take screenshots to back up a claim that 33% crit = 1 out of 3 attacks will proc crit surge = 3 instances of damage per second will proc crit surge on average once per second. Don't be silly. Get some sleep 😴
I am making a video as we speak with a 20 sample size. Is that enough for you? lmaoWhy on earth would I need to take screenshots to back up a claim that 33% crit = 1 out of 3 attacks will proc crit surge = 3 instances of damage per second will proc crit surge on average once per second. Don't be silly. Get some sleep 😴
Your "simple math" only applies to a PvE scenario. No good player is gonna stand still and let you "use 3 attacks" to proc crit surge every 1 second. There are down times in a fight where you can only apply 1 instance of dmg from hurricane. Your math also fails to look at the crit rate. You don't always crit every 3 attacks. You aren't even showing any examples in game. You're just assuming that your math will work when a simple test in game can prove you wrong lmao...
Nope! Math is math, it applies everywhere. Whether you are beating on a dummy for 30 minutes straight or attacking someone in a 3 second burst window 100 separate times, math still exists!
And it doesn't always crit everytime even with 3 sources of damage together. Where is your sample size? So far you have 0 to my 3
You don't need to sample flipping a coin to know that on average you will land on heads 50% of the time. You still havent answered why you would possibly need to run samples to prove your crit chance.
You're basically saying that you landed on tails 3 times in a row so the chance of landing on heads isn't 50%... its.. mind boggling.1 -
MadeInVN✭✭✭✭
'Seriously dude', you haven't backed anything up, you took some pics and are trying to use a hilariously small sample size to justify the usefulness of an ability...
Why on earth would I need to take screenshots to back up a claim that 33% crit = 1 out of 3 attacks will proc crit surge = 3 instances of damage per second will proc crit surge on average once per second. Don't be silly. Get some sleep 😴
I am making a video as we speak with a 20 sample size. [snip]Why on earth would I need to take screenshots to back up a claim that 33% crit = 1 out of 3 attacks will proc crit surge = 3 instances of damage per second will proc crit surge on average once per second. Don't be silly. Get some sleep 😴
Your "simple math" only applies to a PvE scenario. No good player is gonna stand still and let you "use 3 attacks" to proc crit surge every 1 second. There are down times in a fight where you can only apply 1 instance of dmg from hurricane. Your math also fails to look at the crit rate. You don't always crit every 3 attacks. You aren't even showing any examples in game. You're just assuming that your math will work when a simple test in game can prove you wrong lmao...
Nope! Math is math, it applies everywhere. Whether you are beating on a dummy for 30 minutes straight or attacking someone in a 3 second burst window 100 separate times, math still exists!
And it doesn't always crit everytime even with 3 sources of damage together. Where is your sample size? So far you have 0 to my 3
You don't need to sample flipping a coin to know that on average you will land on heads 50% of the time. You still havent answered why you would possibly need to run samples to prove your crit chance.
You're basically saying that you landed on tails 3 times in a row so the chance of landing on heads isn't 50%... its.. mind boggling.
First of all, it's not a 50% chance, but 30% chance per attack according to your given crit rate. There is a high chance that you will not crit all 3 instances of damage. The samples are here to prove that YOU DON'T ALWAYS CRIT EVERY SECOND WITH 3 INSTANCES OF DAMAGE AT 30% CRIT CHANCE. Is that hard to understand?
Second of all, you are missing the point of this thread. PvP is all about burst, and any second of not getting a crit surge heal = prone to dying. [snip]
[Edited for quote, rude/insulting comments]Edited by ZOS_GabeS on August 16, 2021 5:28PM0 -
Alchimiste1✭✭✭✭✭Nord_Raseri wrote: »Nord_Raseri wrote: »
It's a great skill for pve but not as great for pvp, and that's a problem because??Nord_Raseri wrote: »Nord_Raseri wrote: »I run a nord stamsorc for pve. My crit ranges 57-67%. I'd like to keep crit surge as is.
This is a PvP suggestion
Regardless, changing a skill is changing a skill. Hence, it affects pve stamsorcs.
Yea it makes stamsorc a little squishier, and that's a problem because??
Not once did I say I cannot survive without it. What I will say, is because of it, I need vigor a little less which helps sustain and over all dps. It sounds like you need to figure out your build without changing others'If anyone cannot survive without crit surge in PvE that's probably an issue they need to address.
Because you fight actual players in PvP that also want to min max everything and grab every advantage they can get, and when 2 equally good players fight the one with weaker heals/damage will lose. Whereas in PvE bosses and adds are given a fixed amount of dmg and HP with fixed mechanics and once you pass that healing/dmg threshold you can breeze through the content. Why is this even a question lmao?
Great, you will just have to use vigor a bit more for solo content, and in trials you don't use vigor a lot anyways. Instead of fixing the core issues of this class you're telling people to fix their build, and you're talking to a seasoned stamsorc main that's tried every build possible in this game. Seriously stop embarrassing yourself.
I've been maining a stamsorc since 2015. I've also been heavily into pvp for 5 years with multiple builds in use(to be fair I only use stam). By your logic, does this magically make me more knowledgeable than you? If not, sto talking down to people and thinking you're somehow better or your playstyle is more important. The only embarrassing thing I see here is your hollow arrogance. Good day.
He’s completely right though. As a heal in a patch where crit chance is at an all time low the skill is bottom of the barrel. Its still used because you can use dw and something like snb for the major brutality. Crit chance this patch is probably closer to 25-28% it’s a 1 in 4 chances. And In actual pvp you’ll find you proc it a lot less because you have to maneuver around , cc brake and other things that don’t let you apply many instances of damage.
It’s okay to admit you’re wrong
Edited by Alchimiste1 on August 15, 2021 7:40AM1 -
Stx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭You don't need to crit all three instances of damage per second, just one out of three.
Of course you don't ALWAYS crit one out of three. You don't need samples to know that, like I said it's basic math. That's why I used the word average.
If you need crit surge to proc every 1 second guaranteed, that's not going to happen. Crit surge isn't meant to be a main heal, it's a supplemental heal, like leeching strikes, cauterize, etc. Leeching requires constant light attacks, cauterize might be on cooldown when you need it. Not every ability is super perfect reliable, but critical surge is damn good.
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MadeInVN✭✭✭✭You don't need to crit all three instances of damage per second, just one out of three.
Of course you don't ALWAYS crit one out of three. You don't need samples to know that, like I said it's basic math. That's why I used the word average.
If you need crit surge to proc every 1 second guaranteed, that's not going to happen. Crit surge isn't meant to be a main heal, it's a supplemental heal, like leeching strikes, cauterize, etc. Leeching requires constant light attacks, cauterize might be on cooldown when you need it. Not every ability is super perfect reliable, but critical surge is damn good.
That's the problem I'm trying to point out. Other supplemental heals have a 100% proc chance with much easier proc conditions. This thread is aiming to make it easier to proc for a reduced tooltip.0 -
Alchimiste1✭✭✭✭✭You don't need to crit all three instances of damage per second, just one out of three.
Of course you don't ALWAYS crit one out of three. You don't need samples to know that, like I said it's basic math. That's why I used the word average.
If you need crit surge to proc every 1 second guaranteed, that's not going to happen. Crit surge isn't meant to be a main heal, it's a supplemental heal, like leeching strikes, cauterize, etc. Leeching requires constant light attacks, cauterize might be on cooldown when you need it. Not every ability is super perfect reliable, but critical surge is damn good.
Yes well when I need cauterize , I press the skill for cauterize. When I need crit surge heal I press the skill . . . Oh wait0 -
Nord_Raseri✭✭✭✭✭
✭Alchimiste1 wrote: »It’s okay to admit you’re wrong
Me wanting to keep one of 3 usable class skills on my pve stamsorc as is (The way the devs, good or bad, made it) is wrong? In what way? Because OP thinks their playing experience is more important than anothers, does not make my wanting the skill to stay the way it is "wrong". I said my piece. We're all at an impasse. I'm out.Veit ég aðég hékk vindga meiði á nætr allar níu, geiri undaðr og gefinn Oðni, sjálfr sjálfum mér, á þeim meiði er manngi veit hvers hann af rótum rennr.0 -
Alchimiste1✭✭✭✭✭Nord_Raseri wrote: »Alchimiste1 wrote: »It’s okay to admit you’re wrong
Me wanting to keep one of 3 usable class skills on my pve stamsorc as is (The way the devs, good or bad, made it) is wrong? In what way? Because OP thinks their playing experience is more important than anothers, does not make my wanting the skill to stay the way it is "wrong". I said my piece. We're all at an impasse. I'm out.
A rework doesn’t mean it would make it useless for pve. And if crit surge is the only reason you are surviving in pve maybe that skill should be looked into
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Stx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Alchimiste1 wrote: »You don't need to crit all three instances of damage per second, just one out of three.
Of course you don't ALWAYS crit one out of three. You don't need samples to know that, like I said it's basic math. That's why I used the word average.
If you need crit surge to proc every 1 second guaranteed, that's not going to happen. Crit surge isn't meant to be a main heal, it's a supplemental heal, like leeching strikes, cauterize, etc. Leeching requires constant light attacks, cauterize might be on cooldown when you need it. Not every ability is super perfect reliable, but critical surge is damn good.
Yes well when I need cauterize , I press the skill for cauterize. When I need crit surge heal I press the skill . . . Oh wait
I would recommend building to a decent crit rate and then hitting your opponent. Oh and make sure to press your critical surge skill first. It lasts super long time so you don't have to press it often.2 -
MadeInVN✭✭✭✭Here is the video evidence of 15 tests done in a row:
https://youtu.be/6XkyH5puTDo
4 dizzying swings, 4 light attacks, 5 hurricane ticks. 1 or 2 tests had an extra light attack or hurricane tick, but the result is as I expected, only 2/15 tests had 4 crit surge procs. With 3 sources of damage you still cannot reliably proc crit surge every second. The key word here is reliability. Most heal over time abilities are reliable and always procs when you need it to. Even the heals that proc off damage done like blood thirst, leeching vines, green lotus, have a 100% proc chance. Crit surge is the ONLY heal that doesn't have a 100% proc chance. To put it into perspective, the set Scathing Mage's 5th bonus proc condition pre-rework had a chance to proc off critical damage done. Nobody used it. Crit surge is basically like that.
This is the entire point I've been trying to make - Reliability. People who argued that crit surge is great and doesn't need to be changed completely missed my point. Due to the lower crit rate, crit surge is not reliable enough to be used. I don't know why it's so hard to comprehend that.
Edited by MadeInVN on August 15, 2021 8:07AM0 -
Alchimiste1✭✭✭✭✭Nord_Raseri wrote: »Alchimiste1 wrote: »Nord_Raseri wrote: »Alchimiste1 wrote: »It’s okay to admit you’re wrong
Me wanting to keep one of 3 usable class skills on my pve stamsorc as is (The way the devs, good or bad, made it) is wrong? In what way? Because OP thinks their playing experience is more important than anothers, does not make my wanting the skill to stay the way it is "wrong". I said my piece. We're all at an impasse. I'm out.
A rework doesn’t mean it would make it useless for pve. And if crit surge is the only reason you are surviving in pve maybe that skill should be looked into
Where does this "if you're only reason for surviving is crit surge" nonsense keep coming from? I've already addressed the fact I've not once said anything like that. You two can continue to stroke eachother's ego and practice poor reading comprehension. Please leave me out of it. I'm done.
You’re taking it too personally. I said “if”
and the “ you”that follows refers to those that it might apply tooEdited by Alchimiste1 on August 15, 2021 8:10AM0 -
Stx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Crit surge is reliable. It has a 100% chance to proc from a critical strike, once per second. How is that not reliable?
Is cauterize not reliable because it only fires off once every 5 seconds? What if you need a heal during those five seconds? Omg buff cauterize!
Or leeching strikes, is it not reliable because you need to constantly be weaving light attacks? What if your target dodges or moves out of range, omg buff leeching strikes!
Critical surge has a condition to meet in order for it to function, like most skills do. Meet the condition, build around the condition, don't call an ability unreliable when you fail to do so. That's like calling molten armaments weak while also not building around heavy attacks. 😕
To end my thoughts for the night. I find it hilarious that at one point, it was said that PvEr's don't need crit surge to survive. But then later saying pvpers need every single tick of crit surge to survive. No, you don't. You have vigor, dark deal, rally if you choose, and critical surge supplements all that, its not a main heal. Not to mention passive speed and streak which was failed to be mentioned earlier when crit surge was compared to spirit guardian of all things. Different classes are different.
Critical surge is damn good and reliable. I'm surprised it hasn't been nerfed already as my stam sorc has much better passive healing than my stamplar or my stamblade. Please don't touch it.5 -
Merforum✭✭✭✭✭Crit surge is more for the 33sec of 20% w/s dmg, the heal is just a bonus. But for stam w/2hnd rally might be better. Sorcs also have the best heal (pet) in the game bar none. Also most sorcs use dark exchange with insanely powerful heal and opposite resource. Just spam dark exchange x3 to get topped off quickly. When compared to Equilibrium as another exchange ability, it doesn't come close to dark Xchng morphs. The cost/benefit should be fixed. Also as stated for PVE crit surge is just fine so no point changing is just for PVP when there are better options already.0
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MadeInVN✭✭✭✭Crit surge is reliable. It has a 100% chance to proc from a critical strike, once per second. How is that not reliable?
Is cauterize not reliable because it only fires off once every 5 seconds? What if you need a heal during those five seconds? Omg buff cauterize!
Or leeching strikes, is it not reliable because you need to constantly be weaving light attacks? What if your target dodges or moves out of range, omg buff leeching strikes!
Critical surge has a condition to meet in order for it to function, like most skills do. Meet the condition, build around the condition, don't call an ability unreliable when you fail to do so. That's like calling molten armaments weak while also not building around heavy attacks. 😕
To end my thoughts for the night. I find it hilarious that at one point, it was said that PvEr's don't need crit surge to survive. But then later saying pvpers need every single tick of crit surge to survive. No, you don't. You have vigor, dark deal, rally if you choose, and critical surge supplements all that, its not a main heal. Not to mention passive speed and streak which was failed to be mentioned earlier when crit surge was compared to spirit guardian of all things. Different classes are different.
Critical surge is damn good and reliable. I'm surprised it hasn't been nerfed already as my stam sorc has much better passive healing than my stamplar or my stamblade. Please don't touch it.
Even with all that evidence it still baffles me that some people will tell you to use another heal instead of acknowledging the fact that the class’s core ability is weak. Some people are just beyond reasoning.0 -
ExistingRug61✭✭✭✭Here is the video evidence of 15 tests done in a row:https://youtu.be/6XkyH5puTDo
4 dizzying swings, 4 light attacks, 5 hurricane ticks. 1 or 2 tests had an extra light attack or hurricane tick, but the result is as I expected, only 2/15 tests had 4 crit surge procs. With 3 sources of damage you still cannot reliably proc crit surge every second. The key word here is reliability. Most heal over time abilities are reliable and always procs when you need it to. Even the heals that proc off damage done like blood thirst, leeching vines, green lotus, have a 100% proc chance. Crit surge is the ONLY heal that doesn't have a 100% proc chance. To put it into perspective, the set Scathing Mage's 5th bonus proc condition pre-rework had a chance to proc off critical damage done. Nobody used it. Crit surge is basically like that.
This is the entire point I've been trying to make - Reliability. People who argued that crit surge is great and doesn't need to be changed completely missed my point. Due to the lower crit rate, crit surge is not reliable enough to be used. I don't know why it's so hard to comprehend that.
Ok so lets look at the numbers in your tests.
Unfortunately I couldn't get the video to buffer properly right at the start so I couldn't see the numbers for the first three (too blurry), but from the last 12 tests it looks like there were
1 instance of 1 proc
4 instances of 2 procs
6 instances of 3 procs
1 instance of 4 procs
For an average of 2.583 procs across the 12 test I could see.
From that I would say you are reasonably reliably getting at least 2 procs in 4 sec. Two procs gives slightly better healing than leeching strikes (assuming 4 light attacks) for comparison. With potential for the occasional worse case (of only 14) but a higher chance (when you get 3 or 4 crits) to be significantly better.
So sure, there is an element of rng, but it still seems pretty good. And sure some other other heal off damage skills have different conditions which may be slightly more reliable when used on offense, but none of them have the ability to continue to occasionally passively proc when you go on the defensive as long as you have hurricane (and possible other dots) running. Different pros and cons.
Also, like others have pointed out, critical surge (like leeching strikes) is not meant to be a primary heal but a supplementary one, as its a large part of its purpose (and power budget) is the long duration sorcery/brutality. To try to make it function of a primary heal would have to come at the cost of that, which is not a path I would want to see the skill take.6 -
Aznox✭✭✭✭✭Fact : Crit Surge is one of the most iconic (stam)sorc abilities, players are attached to it
Fact : Crit Surge can dip way below average Healing over Time values on some specific (burst) PvP builds
Fact : Crit Surge can reach unrivaled Healing per GCD/resource used given the right situation (pretty much all of PvE, and any PvP involving AoE / multiple targets / DoTs)
Opinion : Varied mechanics and conditions (like Crit Surge needing critical hit every second to get top performance) are what makes the game interesting in the long term. (Looking for and optimizing interactions between several mechanics)
Opinion : PvP stamsorc burst builds that get little value from Crit Surge are still performing reasonably well without it, giving them increased survivability doesn't look like an urgent matter.
Opinion : Even if we wanted to help PvP stamsorc burst builds, there would be better ways than removing a part of Crit Surge's uniqueness, for exemple giving a boost to Bound Armaments, having a physical morph for Curse, etc..
Edited by Aznox on August 15, 2021 10:17AMAznox
PC EU
Khajiit Orc Bosmer Stamina Sorcerer and Werewolf Stage 3 Vampire
I live in Battlegrounds
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CP1500+ club5 -
MadeInVN✭✭✭✭ExistingRug61 wrote: »Here is the video evidence of 15 tests done in a row:https://youtu.be/6XkyH5puTDo
4 dizzying swings, 4 light attacks, 5 hurricane ticks. 1 or 2 tests had an extra light attack or hurricane tick, but the result is as I expected, only 2/15 tests had 4 crit surge procs. With 3 sources of damage you still cannot reliably proc crit surge every second. The key word here is reliability. Most heal over time abilities are reliable and always procs when you need it to. Even the heals that proc off damage done like blood thirst, leeching vines, green lotus, have a 100% proc chance. Crit surge is the ONLY heal that doesn't have a 100% proc chance. To put it into perspective, the set Scathing Mage's 5th bonus proc condition pre-rework had a chance to proc off critical damage done. Nobody used it. Crit surge is basically like that.
This is the entire point I've been trying to make - Reliability. People who argued that crit surge is great and doesn't need to be changed completely missed my point. Due to the lower crit rate, crit surge is not reliable enough to be used. I don't know why it's so hard to comprehend that.
Ok so lets look at the numbers in your tests.
Unfortunately I couldn't get the video to buffer properly right at the start so I couldn't see the numbers for the first three (too blurry), but from the last 12 tests it looks like there were
1 instance of 1 proc
4 instances of 2 procs
6 instances of 3 procs
1 instance of 4 procs
For an average of 2.583 procs across the 12 test I could see.
From that I would say you are reasonably reliably getting at least 2 procs in 4 sec. Two procs gives slightly better healing than leeching strikes (assuming 4 light attacks) for comparison. With potential for the occasional worse case (of only 14) but a higher chance (when you get 3 or 4 crits) to be significantly better.
So sure, there is an element of rng, but it still seems pretty good. And sure some other other heal off damage skills have different conditions which may be slightly more reliable when used on offense, but none of them have the ability to continue to occasionally passively proc when you go on the defensive as long as you have hurricane (and possible other dots) running. Different pros and cons.
Also, like others have pointed out, critical surge (like leeching strikes) is not meant to be a primary heal but a supplementary one, as its a large part of its purpose (and power budget) is the long duration sorcery/brutality. To try to make it function of a primary heal would have to come at the cost of that, which is not a path I would want to see the skill take.
The tests were meant to prove someone above wrong when he claimed that it could on average proc every second with 3 sources of damage. The video only showed a 13% chance of proccing every second.
It would be absurd to have the heal proc every second, as it would instantly become the best passive heal in the game. The reason why I said it’s not reliable even with a 50% proc rate is because you need it to act as a source of constant passive heal to prolong your offensive window. It’s never meant to be your main heal, but it needs to be reliable enough to keep you on the offense or save you from dying. Even though crit surge’s healing is twice as good as leeching vines or leeching strikes, the core advantage that both of those abilities have over crit surge is reliability. When you want to proc the heal, you proc it. This is advantageous because there are situations when the guaranteed heal, even with a smaller tooltip, will save you from death. A heal that gives you 500 hp every second over 6s is much better than one that gives you 1000 hp once every 2 seconds. Both heals give the same amount, but you are more prone to dying between the downtimes of the 2nd heal. Crit surge’s unreliable in that same manner. It has the potential to beat most heal over time effects in the game, but its unreliability makes it not as good as other heals.
Crit surge was never meant to be a main heal, everyone knows that. It’s a heal over time effect, hence I compare it to similar abilities like mortal coil, spirit guardian, dark cloak, leeching strikes, warden vines, rune focus heal, etc. It’s the only class heal over time effect that does not guarantee a proc.
My suggestion will only slightly nerf stamsorc’s survivability in PvE, but it will literally open up so many build paths for stamsorc. You don’t have to rely on building crit chance anymore, which lets you drop rally to use other weapons. The tooltip has to be nerfed, but it’s for the best.0 -
ExistingRug61✭✭✭✭
Sure, that's fair. But the tests do also show a reasonable level of reliability which I think is worth noting.ExistingRug61 wrote: »Here is the video evidence of 15 tests done in a row:https://youtu.be/6XkyH5puTDo
4 dizzying swings, 4 light attacks, 5 hurricane ticks. 1 or 2 tests had an extra light attack or hurricane tick, but the result is as I expected, only 2/15 tests had 4 crit surge procs. With 3 sources of damage you still cannot reliably proc crit surge every second. The key word here is reliability. Most heal over time abilities are reliable and always procs when you need it to. Even the heals that proc off damage done like blood thirst, leeching vines, green lotus, have a 100% proc chance. Crit surge is the ONLY heal that doesn't have a 100% proc chance. To put it into perspective, the set Scathing Mage's 5th bonus proc condition pre-rework had a chance to proc off critical damage done. Nobody used it. Crit surge is basically like that.
This is the entire point I've been trying to make - Reliability. People who argued that crit surge is great and doesn't need to be changed completely missed my point. Due to the lower crit rate, crit surge is not reliable enough to be used. I don't know why it's so hard to comprehend that.
Ok so lets look at the numbers in your tests.
Unfortunately I couldn't get the video to buffer properly right at the start so I couldn't see the numbers for the first three (too blurry), but from the last 12 tests it looks like there were
1 instance of 1 proc
4 instances of 2 procs
6 instances of 3 procs
1 instance of 4 procs
For an average of 2.583 procs across the 12 test I could see.
From that I would say you are reasonably reliably getting at least 2 procs in 4 sec. Two procs gives slightly better healing than leeching strikes (assuming 4 light attacks) for comparison. With potential for the occasional worse case (of only 14) but a higher chance (when you get 3 or 4 crits) to be significantly better.
So sure, there is an element of rng, but it still seems pretty good. And sure some other other heal off damage skills have different conditions which may be slightly more reliable when used on offense, but none of them have the ability to continue to occasionally passively proc when you go on the defensive as long as you have hurricane (and possible other dots) running. Different pros and cons.
Also, like others have pointed out, critical surge (like leeching strikes) is not meant to be a primary heal but a supplementary one, as its a large part of its purpose (and power budget) is the long duration sorcery/brutality. To try to make it function of a primary heal would have to come at the cost of that, which is not a path I would want to see the skill take.
The tests were meant to prove someone above wrong when he claimed that it could on average proc every second with 3 sources of damage. The video only showed a 13% chance of proccing every second.
Again sure, but remember that crit surges value is actually more than double leaching strikes. And even with your test the average proc rate actually gave 3/4 more often than 2/4 with it significantly better than leeching. So it trades a bit of reliability for and overall better average. Seems reasonable. Different, but reasonable.It would be absurd to have the heal proc every second, as it would instantly become the best passive heal in the game. The reason why I said it’s not reliable even with a 50% proc rate is because you need it to act as a source of constant passive heal to prolong your offensive window. It’s never meant to be your main heal, but it needs to be reliable enough to keep you on the offense or save you from dying. Even though crit surge’s healing is twice as good as leeching vines or leeching strikes, the core advantage that both of those abilities have over crit surge is reliability. When you want to proc the heal, you proc it. This is advantageous because there are situations when the guaranteed heal, even with a smaller tooltip, will save you from death. A heal that gives you 500 hp every second over 6s is much better than one that gives you 1000 hp once every 2 seconds. Both heals give the same amount, but you are more prone to dying between the downtimes of the 2nd heal. Crit surge’s unreliable in that same manner. It has the potential to beat most heal over time effects in the game, but its unreliability makes it not as good as other heals.
Also, in response to this specifically "but it needs to be reliable enough to keep you on the offense or save you from dying". Why? Why is this a requirement? I know some other classes may have this feature, and I understand that its desirable for this to be the case. But that doesn't make it a given and all classes should have weaknesses, perhaps this is one for stamsorc. (I'm not saying the classes are balanced in terms of weaknesses, what I'm saying is that in general classes having some, and different, weaknesses is a good thing for playstyle diversity)
Some of those may not be the best comparison in my mind, as they are still primarily HoTs, whereas in Critical Surge's case even the HoT part is supplementary to the other effect of brutality/sorcery. Also, all those skills have other downsides and reliability issues - there might not be a corpse when you want to start mortal coil, spirit guardian might heal an ally when you need it yourself, your enemy might move out of your rune focus forcing you to follow to stay on offense etc etc. Its all just different pros and cons. Now sure, those downsides may be things that don't matter as much to the type of build you want whereas critical surge's does, but that's all part of building.Crit surge was never meant to be a main heal, everyone knows that. It’s a heal over time effect, hence I compare it to similar abilities like mortal coil, spirit guardian, dark cloak, leeching strikes, warden vines, rune focus heal, etc. It’s the only class heal over time effect that does not guarantee a proc.
This is where I think we simply have a difference of opinion, which is fine. I like that critical surge encourages building a certain way, or rather, I like that it is possible to build in such a way that makes critical surge more effective. Its another point of interest to consider when making a build. Yes, this means that critical surge may not be as effective for certain build paths, but I am happy with that. It makes skills interesting to me. Making it a generic condition that simply always works and works just as effectively no matter how you build, to me that's just boring. You would be losing a mechanic that has been iconic to sorcs for years to do it as well.My suggestion will only slightly nerf stamsorc’s survivability in PvE, but it will literally open up so many build paths for stamsorc. You don’t have to rely on building crit chance anymore, which lets you drop rally to use other weapons. The tooltip has to be nerfed, but it’s for the best.
As an aside, this sort of thing is what I often feel is missing from stam warden and stam necro, which to me makes them somewhat boring (and powerful, in PvP) - everything just kinda "works" in a standard/plain way. There's no real incentive to push to build in different ways to emphasise or synergise with particular skills. Few trade offs. Instead its just stack stats or procs and do the same thing on both classes.
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the1andonlyskwex✭✭✭✭✭
✭First off, the correct math for the chance of proccing crit surge in a given second is pretty straightforward. It's as follows:
(proc chance)=1-(1-(crit chance))^(number of damage instances)
So, with a 30% crit chance, you have a 30% chance of proccing it with one instance of damage, a 51% chance with 2 instances of damage, a 66% chance with 3 instances of damage, and a 76% chance with 4 instances of damage, etc.
As you can see, the proc chance gets pretty high very quickly, and as a result, crit surge is one of the most reliable sources of sustained healing in the game.
Also, since when is spamming Dizzying Swing a "burst combo"? If that's all it takes to play stamsorc, I'm clearly playing the wrong class.Edited by the1andonlyskwex on August 15, 2021 11:59AM1