the1andonlyskwex wrote: »First off, the correct math for the chance of proccing crit surge in a given second is pretty straightforward. It's as follows:
(proc chance)=1-(1-(crit chance))^(number of damage instances)
So, with a 30% crit chance, you have a 30% chance of proccing it with one instance of damage, a 51% chance with 2 instances of damage, a 66% chance with 3 instances of damage, and a 76% chance with 4 instances of damage, etc.
As you can see, the proc chance gets pretty high very quickly, and as a result, crit surge is one of the most reliable sources of sustained healing in the game.
Also, since when is spamming Dizzying Swing a "burst combo"? If that's all it takes to play stamsorc, I'm clearly playing the wrong class.
ExistingRug61 wrote: »Sure, that's fair. But the tests do also show a reasonable level of reliability which I think is worth noting.ExistingRug61 wrote: »Here is the video evidence of 15 tests done in a row:
https://youtu.be/6XkyH5puTDo
4 dizzying swings, 4 light attacks, 5 hurricane ticks. 1 or 2 tests had an extra light attack or hurricane tick, but the result is as I expected, only 2/15 tests had 4 crit surge procs. With 3 sources of damage you still cannot reliably proc crit surge every second. The key word here is reliability. Most heal over time abilities are reliable and always procs when you need it to. Even the heals that proc off damage done like blood thirst, leeching vines, green lotus, have a 100% proc chance. Crit surge is the ONLY heal that doesn't have a 100% proc chance. To put it into perspective, the set Scathing Mage's 5th bonus proc condition pre-rework had a chance to proc off critical damage done. Nobody used it. Crit surge is basically like that.
This is the entire point I've been trying to make - Reliability. People who argued that crit surge is great and doesn't need to be changed completely missed my point. Due to the lower crit rate, crit surge is not reliable enough to be used. I don't know why it's so hard to comprehend that.
Ok so lets look at the numbers in your tests.
Unfortunately I couldn't get the video to buffer properly right at the start so I couldn't see the numbers for the first three (too blurry), but from the last 12 tests it looks like there were
1 instance of 1 proc
4 instances of 2 procs
6 instances of 3 procs
1 instance of 4 procs
For an average of 2.583 procs across the 12 test I could see.
From that I would say you are reasonably reliably getting at least 2 procs in 4 sec. Two procs gives slightly better healing than leeching strikes (assuming 4 light attacks) for comparison. With potential for the occasional worse case (of only 14) but a higher chance (when you get 3 or 4 crits) to be significantly better.
So sure, there is an element of rng, but it still seems pretty good. And sure some other other heal off damage skills have different conditions which may be slightly more reliable when used on offense, but none of them have the ability to continue to occasionally passively proc when you go on the defensive as long as you have hurricane (and possible other dots) running. Different pros and cons.
Also, like others have pointed out, critical surge (like leeching strikes) is not meant to be a primary heal but a supplementary one, as its a large part of its purpose (and power budget) is the long duration sorcery/brutality. To try to make it function of a primary heal would have to come at the cost of that, which is not a path I would want to see the skill take.
The tests were meant to prove someone above wrong when he claimed that it could on average proc every second with 3 sources of damage. The video only showed a 13% chance of proccing every second.Again sure, but remember that crit surges value is actually more than double leaching strikes. And even with your test the average proc rate actually gave 3/4 more often than 2/4 with it significantly better than leeching. So it trades a bit of reliability for and overall better average. Seems reasonable. Different, but reasonable.It would be absurd to have the heal proc every second, as it would instantly become the best passive heal in the game. The reason why I said it’s not reliable even with a 50% proc rate is because you need it to act as a source of constant passive heal to prolong your offensive window. It’s never meant to be your main heal, but it needs to be reliable enough to keep you on the offense or save you from dying. Even though crit surge’s healing is twice as good as leeching vines or leeching strikes, the core advantage that both of those abilities have over crit surge is reliability. When you want to proc the heal, you proc it. This is advantageous because there are situations when the guaranteed heal, even with a smaller tooltip, will save you from death. A heal that gives you 500 hp every second over 6s is much better than one that gives you 1000 hp once every 2 seconds. Both heals give the same amount, but you are more prone to dying between the downtimes of the 2nd heal. Crit surge’s unreliable in that same manner. It has the potential to beat most heal over time effects in the game, but its unreliability makes it not as good as other heals.
Also, in response to this specifically "but it needs to be reliable enough to keep you on the offense or save you from dying". Why? Why is this a requirement? I know some other classes may have this feature, and I understand that its desirable for this to be the case. But that doesn't make it a given and all classes should have weaknesses, perhaps this is one for stamsorc. (I'm not saying the classes are balanced in terms of weaknesses, what I'm saying is that in general classes having some, and different, weaknesses is a good thing for playstyle diversity)Some of those may not be the best comparison in my mind, as they are still primarily HoTs, whereas in Critical Surge's case even the HoT part is supplementary to the other effect of brutality/sorcery. Also, all those skills have other downsides and reliability issues - there might not be a corpse when you want to start mortal coil, spirit guardian might heal an ally when you need it yourself, your enemy might move out of your rune focus forcing you to follow to stay on offense etc etc. Its all just different pros and cons. Now sure, those downsides may be things that don't matter as much to the type of build you want whereas critical surge's does, but that's all part of building.Crit surge was never meant to be a main heal, everyone knows that. It’s a heal over time effect, hence I compare it to similar abilities like mortal coil, spirit guardian, dark cloak, leeching strikes, warden vines, rune focus heal, etc. It’s the only class heal over time effect that does not guarantee a proc.This is where I think we simply have a difference of opinion, which is fine. I like that critical surge encourages building a certain way, or rather, I like that it is possible to build in such a way that makes critical surge more effective. Its another point of interest to consider when making a build. Yes, this means that critical surge may not be as effective for certain build paths, but I am happy with that. It makes skills interesting to me. Making it a generic condition that simply always works and works just as effectively no matter how you build, to me that's just boring. You would be losing a mechanic that has been iconic to sorcs for years to do it as well.My suggestion will only slightly nerf stamsorc’s survivability in PvE, but it will literally open up so many build paths for stamsorc. You don’t have to rely on building crit chance anymore, which lets you drop rally to use other weapons. The tooltip has to be nerfed, but it’s for the best.
As an aside, this sort of thing is what I often feel is missing from stam warden and stam necro, which to me makes them somewhat boring (and powerful, in PvP) - everything just kinda "works" in a standard/plain way. There's no real incentive to push to build in different ways to emphasise or synergise with particular skills. Few trade offs. Instead its just stack stats or procs and do the same thing on both classes.
ExistingRug61 wrote: »As a separate point, even if it is a problem, why is the go to solution presented always based on the idea of “it would be better if this worked more synergistically for burst (like warden and necro)”. Taking this approach would just pigeonhole all classes a single play style and erode the others.
Uhhhh, stamsorc has been pigeonholed into the hit and run playstyle for a while dude...Less effective heals = more hit and run. It's been like that for almost a year lol
Crit surge is more for the 33sec of 20% w/s dmg, the heal is just a bonus. But for stam w/2hnd rally might be better. Sorcs also have the best heal (pet) in the game bar none. Also most sorcs use dark exchange with insanely powerful heal and opposite resource. Just spam dark exchange x3 to get topped off quickly. When compared to Equilibrium as another exchange ability, it doesn't come close to dark Xchng morphs. The cost/benefit should be fixed. Also as stated for PVE crit surge is just fine so no point changing is just for PVP when there are better options already.
universal_wrath wrote: »ExistingRug61 wrote: »As a separate point, even if it is a problem, why is the go to solution presented always based on the idea of “it would be better if this worked more synergistically for burst (like warden and necro)”. Taking this approach would just pigeonhole all classes a single play style and erode the others.
Uhhhh, stamsorc has been pigeonholed into the hit and run playstyle for a while dude...Less effective heals = more hit and run. It's been like that for almost a year lol
I don't remember a time when sorc could brawle like any other class, even nightblades can stay in fights longer than stamsorc. It has been like this for yearz.
You keep saying people don't understand. It's like yes we do, your point is clear. Just because people disagree with you doesn't mean they don't understand.
Crit surge is reliable. It has a 100% chance to proc from a critical strike, once per second. How is that not reliable?
Is cauterize not reliable because it only fires off once every 5 seconds? What if you need a heal during those five seconds? Omg buff cauterize!
Or leeching strikes, is it not reliable because you need to constantly be weaving light attacks? What if your target dodges or moves out of range, omg buff leeching strikes!
Critical surge has a condition to meet in order for it to function, like most skills do. Meet the condition, build around the condition, don't call an ability unreliable when you fail to do so. That's like calling molten armaments weak while also not building around heavy attacks. 😕
To end my thoughts for the night. I find it hilarious that at one point, it was said that PvEr's don't need crit surge to survive. But then later saying pvpers need every single tick of crit surge to survive. No, you don't. You have vigor, dark deal, rally if you choose, and critical surge supplements all that, its not a main heal. Not to mention passive speed and streak which was failed to be mentioned earlier when crit surge was compared to spirit guardian of all things. Different classes are different.
Critical surge is damn good and reliable. I'm surprised it hasn't been nerfed already as my stam sorc has much better passive healing than my stamplar or my stamblade. Please don't touch it.
Crit surge is more for the 33sec of 20% w/s dmg, the heal is just a bonus. But for stam w/2hnd rally might be better. Sorcs also have the best heal (pet) in the game bar none. Also most sorcs use dark exchange with insanely powerful heal and opposite resource. Just spam dark exchange x3 to get topped off quickly. When compared to Equilibrium as another exchange ability, it doesn't come close to dark Xchng morphs. The cost/benefit should be fixed. Also as stated for PVE crit surge is just fine so no point changing is just for PVP when there are better options already.
Simple math is better evidence than a sample size of 3... sorry.
Three instances of damage per second at 33% crit chance will allow crit surge to proc once per second (on average over time). That's just the truth.
MashmalloMan wrote: »Simple math is better evidence than a sample size of 3... sorry.
Three instances of damage per second at 33% crit chance will allow crit surge to proc once per second (on average over time). That's just the truth.
Thats not how math for probability works. 33% chance in 3 instances does not equal 33 + 33 + 33 for 99/100.
1 - 0.33 = 0.67 (chance it would fail)
0.67 * 0.67 * 0.67 = 0.3 (chance it would fail in 3 instances)
1 - 0.3 = 0.7 (total chance to succeed)
70% chance to get a heal every second with 33% crit chance and 3 ticks of damage a second.
I would never drop streak because that's what makes stamsorc so much fun to me compared to my other toons. When I think of spec defining abilities, I think of streak first, dark deal second,MashmalloMan wrote: »Simple math is better evidence than a sample size of 3... sorry.
Three instances of damage per second at 33% crit chance will allow crit surge to proc once per second (on average over time). That's just the truth.
Thats not how math for probability works. 33% chance in 3 instances does not equal 33 + 33 + 33 for 99/100.
1 - 0.33 = 0.67 (chance it would fail)
0.67 * 0.67 * 0.67 = 0.3 (chance it would fail in 3 instances)
1 - 0.3 = 0.7 (total chance to succeed)
70% chance to get a heal every second with 33% crit chance and 3 ticks of damage a second.
I know. Someone else has already provided the correct math and although mine is wrong, my point stands. Crit surge is very reliable and wanting to change the ability is fine but saying you want it to proc guaranteed every second doesn't mean it currently isn't reliable you just want it to be different.
I'm not asking for crit surge to suddenly work like mortal coil or dark cloak. I'm asking for ZOS to remove the RNG aspect so you will always have it procced with hurricane ticks. It still requires a burst player to stay in the fight if they want to benefit from the tick, but it gives them that reliability to let them stay in the fight for longer. Is that too much to ask for?
I'm not asking for crit surge to suddenly work like mortal coil or dark cloak. I'm asking for ZOS to remove the RNG aspect so you will always have it procced with hurricane ticks. It still requires a burst player to stay in the fight if they want to benefit from the tick, but it gives them that reliability to let them stay in the fight for longer. Is that too much to ask for?
I'm not asking for crit surge to suddenly work like mortal coil or dark cloak. I'm asking for ZOS to remove the RNG aspect so you will always have it procced with hurricane ticks. It still requires a burst player to stay in the fight if they want to benefit from the tick, but it gives them that reliability to let them stay in the fight for longer. Is that too much to ask for?
I mean, considering your proposal will nerf the ability for pve significantly, I think it is too much to ask for. Saying PvE players just don't matter isn't a useful defense either.
Can you tell me again why you would rather change crit surge than ask for power surge to be changed? Power surge currently sees much less use, and could easily be changed to fit the vision you have for this ability that doesn't rely on crit chance.
I'm not asking for crit surge to suddenly work like mortal coil or dark cloak. I'm asking for ZOS to remove the RNG aspect so you will always have it procced with hurricane ticks. It still requires a burst player to stay in the fight if they want to benefit from the tick, but it gives them that reliability to let them stay in the fight for longer. Is that too much to ask for?
Sorc's already suffer from forum witch hunts as it is. Having basically a free heal every second with no chance of failure would not be a good idea. Even in half, it's still a ton of healing.
Just looking at base tooltips of a fairly average mag sorc build (Alfiq, Grace, Domi/Swarm, Death Dealer), with no CP:
Crit Surge: 3300 health per second
Rapid Regen: 21200 health over 5 seconds. Or 4240 per second.
But, Rapid Regen has to be cast every 5 seconds to keep it up, and it can land on other players instead of yourself. Crit surge you cast once, and for 33 seconds you heal a total of 108,900 damage if it procced every second with no condition, or 54,450if you halved it. (Yes I know it gets reduced even more in PVP, but so does Rapid Regen, so base tooltip comparison is fine).
Crit Surge, without the crit requirement, even for half the healing power, would be insanely overpowered. I'd love it, but it would make sorcs unkillable with even a medium amount of offensive pressure. Especially when paired with healing boosts. And even more so when stacked with other sources of heal over time. Keeping it tied to critical damage is fine and prevents it from becoming very OP.
I'm not asking for crit surge to suddenly work like mortal coil or dark cloak. I'm asking for ZOS to remove the RNG aspect so you will always have it procced with hurricane ticks. It still requires a burst player to stay in the fight if they want to benefit from the tick, but it gives them that reliability to let them stay in the fight for longer. Is that too much to ask for?
I mean, considering your proposal will nerf the ability for pve significantly, I think it is too much to ask for. Saying PvE players just don't matter isn't a useful defense either.
Can you tell me again why you would rather change crit surge than ask for power surge to be changed? Power surge currently sees much less use, and could easily be changed to fit the vision you have for this ability that doesn't rely on crit chance.