Alchimiste1 wrote: »TequilaFire wrote: »Not all stamblades crutch on cloak, he is right.
That isn't the fallacy. The fallacy is saying that cloaking more than twice is crutching, and that no "good" Nightblade has ever cloaked more than twice in a row.
There is no fallacy it’s just the truth, you should be alternating roll dodge , cloak , and shade on stamblade to keep both your stam and mag resources at good levels.
Maybe you’re just not at the level to recognize it
People seem to love red herrings. The main benefit of cloak isn't getting away because shade does that much better. The benefit comes when you cloak in the middle of a fight, where your opponent loses targeting, and you can flank them and get all the massive benefits from that, damage, stun, etc.
To fix cloak a ramping cost wouldn't do much. But I would say that when in melee range, especially with opponent looking straight at you cuz you are fighting, you should NOT be able to cloak. You should have to run out of melee range first then cloak, and if that was the case ZOS could make the skill even more undetectable. Another change could be that if you hit an enemy from cloak/stealth, you're opponent has 100% inviso detection for 5 seconds, so you can't just cloak/hit/cloak/hit/cloak/hit.
They already have that mechanic, it's called Stealth.
I suppose we could change the class defining skill that's supposed to work in your face to...."Try to Hide"
Joking aside, NB was designed to spam Cloak to control the engagement, that's the sole reason they have it. I get that some folks hate the playstyle, but damn it's super simple.
Block when they cloak, let them run away when they fail.
Granted it's a bit tougher after they removed the Invisibility condition on SA/Concealed in favor of the positional, but it still works fine.
I see most of the complaints and moaning about cloak NOT from a damage/engagement perspective, but rather from a defensive/dis-engagement one. For some reason people really froth at the mouth when people get away in ESO.
People seem to love red herrings. The main benefit of cloak isn't getting away because shade does that much better. The benefit comes when you cloak in the middle of a fight, where your opponent loses targeting, and you can flank them and get all the massive benefits from that, damage, stun, etc.
To fix cloak a ramping cost wouldn't do much. But I would say that when in melee range, especially with opponent looking straight at you cuz you are fighting, you should NOT be able to cloak. You should have to run out of melee range first then cloak, and if that was the case ZOS could make the skill even more undetectable. Another change could be that if you hit an enemy from cloak/stealth, you're opponent has 100% inviso detection for 5 seconds, so you can't just cloak/hit/cloak/hit/cloak/hit.
They already have that mechanic, it's called Stealth.
I suppose we could change the class defining skill that's supposed to work in your face to...."Try to Hide"
Joking aside, NB was designed to spam Cloak to control the engagement, that's the sole reason they have it. I get that some folks hate the playstyle, but damn it's super simple.
Block when they cloak, let them run away when they fail.
Granted it's a bit tougher after they removed the Invisibility condition on SA/Concealed in favor of the positional, but it still works fine.
I see most of the complaints and moaning about cloak NOT from a damage/engagement perspective, but rather from a defensive/dis-engagement one. For some reason people really froth at the mouth when people get away in ESO.
I don't care if they use cloak to get away, only when they use it over and over get get flank, crit, pen, berserk bonuses and with surprise attack will stun enemy. Just hold block doesn't eliminate those bonuses, oh and forgot 1 as vamp getting 300 w/s damage bonus. So as soon as you drop block they can do it again. I'm not saying completely remove the skill just make it more for defense than offense or make it harder to do in melee range. For instance, make it so NB has to get to flank of opponent FIRST then cloak can activate. And/or scaling cost will do nothing really as we see with streak and roll, but a cooldown at least 1 sec longer than skill would help. With all this being said I have had great success with ZOAL set, fearing NB right and left, and killing them easily so not too worried about it. BTW NB are only really bad in cyro/IC but in BGs they are pretty much just there for cheesy kill stealing and kind of useless.
BroughBreaux wrote: »I'd like to see all the people that are perpetually bothered about nightblades actually try to play one and see how much it sucks when you have absolutely no defensive options and you just have to run away, and when that isn't an option, you just die.
Living up to your username, resident contrarian. Doing high burst at the cost of getting killed by being breathed on isn't suddenly easy because you can run away and potentially still get caught and killed anyway. And if we're talking about bombers, in my experience, I've never seen one make it out alive.ResidentContrarian wrote: »Yeah, real hard class, esp. on the stamina side...
Mark is a red herring. Even if it crits, that's still only a 5-6k heal since healing is halved, and you have to kill someone with it active, meaning you have to commit to the kill, and it can still be purged anyway. Vigor breaks stealth, isn't really even a great heal to begin with, and rally is completely dependent on how long it's been active. Spamming it is resource intensive and will take you out of the fight for a bit to recover stamina, which you don't recover while sneak-running away. Health Regen is halved now, and vampires already had bad health regen, so all of your healing comes from OK-tier abilities.ResidentContrarian wrote: »not that hard healing as a stam player, let alone NB with mark, esp.
ResidentContrarian wrote: »BroughBreaux wrote: »I'd like to see all the people that are perpetually bothered about nightblades actually try to play one and see how much it sucks when you have absolutely no defensive options and you just have to run away, and when that isn't an option, you just die.
Played one, and wiped out a zerg spamming 11-15k surprise attack and cloak. Yeah, real hard class, esp. on the stamina side...
Also, with sets that heal on kills slotted and mark, not that hard healing as a stam player, let alone NB with mark, esp. considering there is plenty of material to proc those sets in Cyrodiil.
ResidentContrarian wrote: »BroughBreaux wrote: »I'd like to see all the people that are perpetually bothered about nightblades actually try to play one and see how much it sucks when you have absolutely no defensive options and you just have to run away, and when that isn't an option, you just die.
Played one, and wiped out a zerg spamming 11-15k surprise attack and cloak. Yeah, real hard class, esp. on the stamina side....
ResidentContrarian wrote: »BroughBreaux wrote: »I'd like to see all the people that are perpetually bothered about nightblades actually try to play one and see how much it sucks when you have absolutely no defensive options and you just have to run away, and when that isn't an option, you just die.
Played one, and wiped out a zerg spamming 11-15k surprise attack and cloak. Yeah, real hard class, esp. on the stamina side...
Also, with sets that heal on kills slotted and mark, not that hard healing as a stam player, let alone NB with mark, esp. considering there is plenty of material to proc those sets in Cyrodiil.
You are correct. The idea that NB doesn't have any mitigation or healing first of all is a lie, because when I tank in PVE NB is second best, while DK is #1. With recent changes maybe Tmp is catching up. But NB is far from helpless. And secondly it is a RED HERRING since NO NB in PVP just hangs around trying to heal thru damage, they either cloak or shade away and don't need to have fast/good healing. NICE TRY but irrelevant.
The real point as you say is cloak allows people to get right behind someone and do mega damage. And kill most people almost instantly. And if they run into someone who can live thru that and they are good at NB they can use sneak to get more flank attacks until they kill the enemy.
Also NO ONE is saying a NB just blindly uses cloak over and over and runs out of resources. If they are smart they use it just enough to get a kill or get away. Obviously other classes will beat NB in a sustained 1v1 duel where they don't run away. But in most PVP scenarios using NB with high damage and hit and run is too easy and just boring.
BTW when someone says "Everyone can go invisible. Use pots." as a counter to cloak complaints you know they are not good faith actors.
KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »ResidentContrarian wrote: »BroughBreaux wrote: »I'd like to see all the people that are perpetually bothered about nightblades actually try to play one and see how much it sucks when you have absolutely no defensive options and you just have to run away, and when that isn't an option, you just die.
Played one, and wiped out a zerg spamming 11-15k surprise attack and cloak. Yeah, real hard class, esp. on the stamina side...
Also, with sets that heal on kills slotted and mark, not that hard healing as a stam player, let alone NB with mark, esp. considering there is plenty of material to proc those sets in Cyrodiil.
You are correct. The idea that NB doesn't have any mitigation or healing first of all is a lie, because when I tank in PVE NB is second best, while DK is #1. With recent changes maybe Tmp is catching up. But NB is far from helpless. And secondly it is a RED HERRING since NO NB in PVP just hangs around trying to heal thru damage, they either cloak or shade away and don't need to have fast/good healing. NICE TRY but irrelevant.
The real point as you say is cloak allows people to get right behind someone and do mega damage. And kill most people almost instantly. And if they run into someone who can live thru that and they are good at NB they can use sneak to get more flank attacks until they kill the enemy.
Also NO ONE is saying a NB just blindly uses cloak over and over and runs out of resources. If they are smart they use it just enough to get a kill or get away. Obviously other classes will beat NB in a sustained 1v1 duel where they don't run away. But in most PVP scenarios using NB with high damage and hit and run is too easy and just boring.
BTW when someone says "Everyone can go invisible. Use pots." as a counter to cloak complaints you know they are not good faith actors.
this sounds like nb would never need to heal and that is maybe true if u gank 1 person but if u fight against a few more maybe gank 1 than there are still a few left and no matter how hard u try if u dont just run away and hide (which is to boring) and try to kill them they will eventually get u cause of 500000mio aoes and thanu drop from 100% health to 20% in below 1sec ...
its true that u can gank many players but often these are either unpreaperes mag sorcs low lvls (everything below 1000) or are just bad but not all people are like that e.g. it is badicly impossible to gank a stam cro cause even if u do the whole combo they will jsut drop by 30% life
KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »ResidentContrarian wrote: »BroughBreaux wrote: »I'd like to see all the people that are perpetually bothered about nightblades actually try to play one and see how much it sucks when you have absolutely no defensive options and you just have to run away, and when that isn't an option, you just die.
Played one, and wiped out a zerg spamming 11-15k surprise attack and cloak. Yeah, real hard class, esp. on the stamina side...
Also, with sets that heal on kills slotted and mark, not that hard healing as a stam player, let alone NB with mark, esp. considering there is plenty of material to proc those sets in Cyrodiil.
You are correct. The idea that NB doesn't have any mitigation or healing first of all is a lie, because when I tank in PVE NB is second best, while DK is #1. With recent changes maybe Tmp is catching up. But NB is far from helpless. And secondly it is a RED HERRING since NO NB in PVP just hangs around trying to heal thru damage, they either cloak or shade away and don't need to have fast/good healing. NICE TRY but irrelevant.
The real point as you say is cloak allows people to get right behind someone and do mega damage. And kill most people almost instantly. And if they run into someone who can live thru that and they are good at NB they can use sneak to get more flank attacks until they kill the enemy.
Also NO ONE is saying a NB just blindly uses cloak over and over and runs out of resources. If they are smart they use it just enough to get a kill or get away. Obviously other classes will beat NB in a sustained 1v1 duel where they don't run away. But in most PVP scenarios using NB with high damage and hit and run is too easy and just boring.
BTW when someone says "Everyone can go invisible. Use pots." as a counter to cloak complaints you know they are not good faith actors.
this sounds like nb would never need to heal and that is maybe true if u gank 1 person but if u fight against a few more maybe gank 1 than there are still a few left and no matter how hard u try if u dont just run away and hide (which is to boring) and try to kill them they will eventually get u cause of 500000mio aoes and thanu drop from 100% health to 20% in below 1sec ...
its true that u can gank many players but often these are either unpreaperes mag sorcs low lvls (everything below 1000) or are just bad but not all people are like that e.g. it is badicly impossible to gank a stam cro cause even if u do the whole combo they will jsut drop by 30% life
Maybe sorc/NB could have a few more resist/healing passives but mostly it is because they build 100% offensively that they can't brawl. If sorc or NB wore some defensive sets they would do OK. But with streak, shade, cloak, they can AVOID most damage outright which is actually OP and way better than any other class when used effectively.
KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »ResidentContrarian wrote: »BroughBreaux wrote: »I'd like to see all the people that are perpetually bothered about nightblades actually try to play one and see how much it sucks when you have absolutely no defensive options and you just have to run away, and when that isn't an option, you just die.
Played one, and wiped out a zerg spamming 11-15k surprise attack and cloak. Yeah, real hard class, esp. on the stamina side...
Also, with sets that heal on kills slotted and mark, not that hard healing as a stam player, let alone NB with mark, esp. considering there is plenty of material to proc those sets in Cyrodiil.
You are correct. The idea that NB doesn't have any mitigation or healing first of all is a lie, because when I tank in PVE NB is second best, while DK is #1. With recent changes maybe Tmp is catching up. But NB is far from helpless. And secondly it is a RED HERRING since NO NB in PVP just hangs around trying to heal thru damage, they either cloak or shade away and don't need to have fast/good healing. NICE TRY but irrelevant.
The real point as you say is cloak allows people to get right behind someone and do mega damage. And kill most people almost instantly. And if they run into someone who can live thru that and they are good at NB they can use sneak to get more flank attacks until they kill the enemy.
Also NO ONE is saying a NB just blindly uses cloak over and over and runs out of resources. If they are smart they use it just enough to get a kill or get away. Obviously other classes will beat NB in a sustained 1v1 duel where they don't run away. But in most PVP scenarios using NB with high damage and hit and run is too easy and just boring.
BTW when someone says "Everyone can go invisible. Use pots." as a counter to cloak complaints you know they are not good faith actors.
this sounds like nb would never need to heal and that is maybe true if u gank 1 person but if u fight against a few more maybe gank 1 than there are still a few left and no matter how hard u try if u dont just run away and hide (which is to boring) and try to kill them they will eventually get u cause of 500000mio aoes and thanu drop from 100% health to 20% in below 1sec ...
its true that u can gank many players but often these are either unpreaperes mag sorcs low lvls (everything below 1000) or are just bad but not all people are like that e.g. it is badicly impossible to gank a stam cro cause even if u do the whole combo they will jsut drop by 30% life
Maybe sorc/NB could have a few more resist/healing passives but mostly it is because they build 100% offensively that they can't brawl. If sorc or NB wore some defensive sets they would do OK. But with streak, shade, cloak, they can AVOID most damage outright which is actually OP and way better than any other class when used effectively.
Are you suggesting that sorcs and nightblades can brawl effectively and complete with stam necros/wardens/dks simply if they wear one or more defensive sets and drop streak/shade/cloak?
KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »ResidentContrarian wrote: »BroughBreaux wrote: »I'd like to see all the people that are perpetually bothered about nightblades actually try to play one and see how much it sucks when you have absolutely no defensive options and you just have to run away, and when that isn't an option, you just die.
Played one, and wiped out a zerg spamming 11-15k surprise attack and cloak. Yeah, real hard class, esp. on the stamina side...
Also, with sets that heal on kills slotted and mark, not that hard healing as a stam player, let alone NB with mark, esp. considering there is plenty of material to proc those sets in Cyrodiil.
You are correct. The idea that NB doesn't have any mitigation or healing first of all is a lie, because when I tank in PVE NB is second best, while DK is #1. With recent changes maybe Tmp is catching up. But NB is far from helpless. And secondly it is a RED HERRING since NO NB in PVP just hangs around trying to heal thru damage, they either cloak or shade away and don't need to have fast/good healing. NICE TRY but irrelevant.
The real point as you say is cloak allows people to get right behind someone and do mega damage. And kill most people almost instantly. And if they run into someone who can live thru that and they are good at NB they can use sneak to get more flank attacks until they kill the enemy.
Also NO ONE is saying a NB just blindly uses cloak over and over and runs out of resources. If they are smart they use it just enough to get a kill or get away. Obviously other classes will beat NB in a sustained 1v1 duel where they don't run away. But in most PVP scenarios using NB with high damage and hit and run is too easy and just boring.
BTW when someone says "Everyone can go invisible. Use pots." as a counter to cloak complaints you know they are not good faith actors.
this sounds like nb would never need to heal and that is maybe true if u gank 1 person but if u fight against a few more maybe gank 1 than there are still a few left and no matter how hard u try if u dont just run away and hide (which is to boring) and try to kill them they will eventually get u cause of 500000mio aoes and thanu drop from 100% health to 20% in below 1sec ...
its true that u can gank many players but often these are either unpreaperes mag sorcs low lvls (everything below 1000) or are just bad but not all people are like that e.g. it is badicly impossible to gank a stam cro cause even if u do the whole combo they will jsut drop by 30% life
Maybe sorc/NB could have a few more resist/healing passives but mostly it is because they build 100% offensively that they can't brawl. If sorc or NB wore some defensive sets they would do OK. But with streak, shade, cloak, they can AVOID most damage outright which is actually OP and way better than any other class when used effectively.
Are you suggesting that sorcs and nightblades can brawl effectively and complete with stam necros/wardens/dks simply if they wear one or more defensive sets and drop streak/shade/cloak?
Yes, as a matter of fact I think most WWs are using sorc/NB with some defensive sets. For the awesome class passives, although it has been a while since I ran one, but it was OP for a while.
ResidentContrarian wrote: »BroughBreaux wrote: »I'd like to see all the people that are perpetually bothered about nightblades actually try to play one and see how much it sucks when you have absolutely no defensive options and you just have to run away, and when that isn't an option, you just die.
Played one, and wiped out a zerg spamming 11-15k surprise attack and cloak. Yeah, real hard class, esp. on the stamina side...
Also, with sets that heal on kills slotted and mark, not that hard healing as a stam player, let alone NB with mark, esp. considering there is plenty of material to proc those sets in Cyrodiil.
You are correct. The idea that NB doesn't have any mitigation or healing first of all is a lie, because when I tank in PVE NB is second best, while DK is #1. With recent changes maybe Tmp is catching up. But NB is far from helpless. And secondly it is a RED HERRING since NO NB in PVP just hangs around trying to heal thru damage, they either cloak or shade away and don't need to have fast/good healing. NICE TRY but irrelevant.
The real point as you say is cloak allows people to get right behind someone and do mega damage. And kill most people almost instantly. And if they run into someone who can live thru that and they are good at NB they can use sneak to get more flank attacks until they kill the enemy.
Also NO ONE is saying a NB just blindly uses cloak over and over and runs out of resources. If they are smart they use it just enough to get a kill or get away. Obviously other classes will beat NB in a sustained 1v1 duel where they don't run away. But in most PVP scenarios using NB with high damage and hit and run is too easy and just boring.
BTW when someone says "Everyone can go invisible. Use pots." as a counter to cloak complaints you know they are not good faith actors.
KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »ResidentContrarian wrote: »BroughBreaux wrote: »I'd like to see all the people that are perpetually bothered about nightblades actually try to play one and see how much it sucks when you have absolutely no defensive options and you just have to run away, and when that isn't an option, you just die.
Played one, and wiped out a zerg spamming 11-15k surprise attack and cloak. Yeah, real hard class, esp. on the stamina side...
Also, with sets that heal on kills slotted and mark, not that hard healing as a stam player, let alone NB with mark, esp. considering there is plenty of material to proc those sets in Cyrodiil.
You are correct. The idea that NB doesn't have any mitigation or healing first of all is a lie, because when I tank in PVE NB is second best, while DK is #1. With recent changes maybe Tmp is catching up. But NB is far from helpless. And secondly it is a RED HERRING since NO NB in PVP just hangs around trying to heal thru damage, they either cloak or shade away and don't need to have fast/good healing. NICE TRY but irrelevant.
The real point as you say is cloak allows people to get right behind someone and do mega damage. And kill most people almost instantly. And if they run into someone who can live thru that and they are good at NB they can use sneak to get more flank attacks until they kill the enemy.
Also NO ONE is saying a NB just blindly uses cloak over and over and runs out of resources. If they are smart they use it just enough to get a kill or get away. Obviously other classes will beat NB in a sustained 1v1 duel where they don't run away. But in most PVP scenarios using NB with high damage and hit and run is too easy and just boring.
BTW when someone says "Everyone can go invisible. Use pots." as a counter to cloak complaints you know they are not good faith actors.
this sounds like nb would never need to heal and that is maybe true if u gank 1 person but if u fight against a few more maybe gank 1 than there are still a few left and no matter how hard u try if u dont just run away and hide (which is to boring) and try to kill them they will eventually get u cause of 500000mio aoes and thanu drop from 100% health to 20% in below 1sec ...
its true that u can gank many players but often these are either unpreaperes mag sorcs low lvls (everything below 1000) or are just bad but not all people are like that e.g. it is badicly impossible to gank a stam cro cause even if u do the whole combo they will jsut drop by 30% life
TequilaFire wrote: »Not all stamblades crutch on cloak, he is right.
Because stamblades can enter crouch after several cloaks. What about magblades?
What about magblades?
I said it hundred times and will say again, if you chose to play dumb. This change will do nothing to stamblades and will remove magblades from PvP. And it's not like magblade is the stronger of the two.
KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »ResidentContrarian wrote: »BroughBreaux wrote: »I'd like to see all the people that are perpetually bothered about nightblades actually try to play one and see how much it sucks when you have absolutely no defensive options and you just have to run away, and when that isn't an option, you just die.
Played one, and wiped out a zerg spamming 11-15k surprise attack and cloak. Yeah, real hard class, esp. on the stamina side...
Also, with sets that heal on kills slotted and mark, not that hard healing as a stam player, let alone NB with mark, esp. considering there is plenty of material to proc those sets in Cyrodiil.
You are correct. The idea that NB doesn't have any mitigation or healing first of all is a lie, because when I tank in PVE NB is second best, while DK is #1. With recent changes maybe Tmp is catching up. But NB is far from helpless. And secondly it is a RED HERRING since NO NB in PVP just hangs around trying to heal thru damage, they either cloak or shade away and don't need to have fast/good healing. NICE TRY but irrelevant.
The real point as you say is cloak allows people to get right behind someone and do mega damage. And kill most people almost instantly. And if they run into someone who can live thru that and they are good at NB they can use sneak to get more flank attacks until they kill the enemy.
Also NO ONE is saying a NB just blindly uses cloak over and over and runs out of resources. If they are smart they use it just enough to get a kill or get away. Obviously other classes will beat NB in a sustained 1v1 duel where they don't run away. But in most PVP scenarios using NB with high damage and hit and run is too easy and just boring.
BTW when someone says "Everyone can go invisible. Use pots." as a counter to cloak complaints you know they are not good faith actors.
this sounds like nb would never need to heal and that is maybe true if u gank 1 person but if u fight against a few more maybe gank 1 than there are still a few left and no matter how hard u try if u dont just run away and hide (which is to boring) and try to kill them they will eventually get u cause of 500000mio aoes and thanu drop from 100% health to 20% in below 1sec ...
its true that u can gank many players but often these are either unpreaperes mag sorcs low lvls (everything below 1000) or are just bad but not all people are like that e.g. it is badicly impossible to gank a stam cro cause even if u do the whole combo they will jsut drop by 30% life
yea nb is actually so op that u can kill every blade with a decent combo....
i was in cyro today for a bit and just looked at the amout of dmg i got when i was stunned/ unavoidble dmg
dont forget i have 18k life
- metor 15k
- curse 9k
- incap 12k
- bow proc 14k
- dawnbnreaker 7-8k
- blastbones 7k
- sub assault 7k
- crystalfrag 11k
just to name a few examples
now if u get a 15k metor i am at 3k life which is litterly 1 light atack
now thats a 1v1 zenario but if it is 1vX and there are maybe 2 good players all it takes to kill a nb is 2 of the above skills maybe pared with a stun
doenst sound to hard does it
ResidentContrarian wrote: »KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »ResidentContrarian wrote: »BroughBreaux wrote: »I'd like to see all the people that are perpetually bothered about nightblades actually try to play one and see how much it sucks when you have absolutely no defensive options and you just have to run away, and when that isn't an option, you just die.
Played one, and wiped out a zerg spamming 11-15k surprise attack and cloak. Yeah, real hard class, esp. on the stamina side...
Also, with sets that heal on kills slotted and mark, not that hard healing as a stam player, let alone NB with mark, esp. considering there is plenty of material to proc those sets in Cyrodiil.
You are correct. The idea that NB doesn't have any mitigation or healing first of all is a lie, because when I tank in PVE NB is second best, while DK is #1. With recent changes maybe Tmp is catching up. But NB is far from helpless. And secondly it is a RED HERRING since NO NB in PVP just hangs around trying to heal thru damage, they either cloak or shade away and don't need to have fast/good healing. NICE TRY but irrelevant.
The real point as you say is cloak allows people to get right behind someone and do mega damage. And kill most people almost instantly. And if they run into someone who can live thru that and they are good at NB they can use sneak to get more flank attacks until they kill the enemy.
Also NO ONE is saying a NB just blindly uses cloak over and over and runs out of resources. If they are smart they use it just enough to get a kill or get away. Obviously other classes will beat NB in a sustained 1v1 duel where they don't run away. But in most PVP scenarios using NB with high damage and hit and run is too easy and just boring.
BTW when someone says "Everyone can go invisible. Use pots." as a counter to cloak complaints you know they are not good faith actors.
this sounds like nb would never need to heal and that is maybe true if u gank 1 person but if u fight against a few more maybe gank 1 than there are still a few left and no matter how hard u try if u dont just run away and hide (which is to boring) and try to kill them they will eventually get u cause of 500000mio aoes and thanu drop from 100% health to 20% in below 1sec ...
its true that u can gank many players but often these are either unpreaperes mag sorcs low lvls (everything below 1000) or are just bad but not all people are like that e.g. it is badicly impossible to gank a stam cro cause even if u do the whole combo they will jsut drop by 30% life
yea nb is actually so op that u can kill every blade with a decent combo....
i was in cyro today for a bit and just looked at the amout of dmg i got when i was stunned/ unavoidble dmg
dont forget i have 18k life
- metor 15k
- curse 9k
- incap 12k
- bow proc 14k
- dawnbnreaker 7-8k
- blastbones 7k
- sub assault 7k
- crystalfrag 11k
just to name a few examples
now if u get a 15k metor i am at 3k life which is litterly 1 light atack
now thats a 1v1 zenario but if it is 1vX and there are maybe 2 good players all it takes to kill a nb is 2 of the above skills maybe pared with a stun
doenst sound to hard does it
So because you:
1. Choose to use a max damage build with no defense
2. Choose to believe other builds exist with better performance
3. Get killed in PvP as an NB
4. Get hit by various builds for different values on ultimates
5. Have less health than my mag DK in all light armor without any CP slotted
That is indicative of stam NB not being an easy class?
That is indicative of spamming surprise attack not being op?
That is indicative of cloak and invis mechanics not being op?
That is indicative of other specs being stronger?
Nah. I'll tell you what I think as the ResidentContrarian; I think that is indicative of your personal build decisions and choices.
I think it still doesn't change:
1. Gaze of Sithis + Pariah creates a super strong stam spec; NB and cloak becomes icing
2. Sets like Oblivion and Vampires Kiss are OP on NB, esp. if you know how to use them and combine them with mark. With either both or with that Gaze-Pariah setup, esp in CP it's meme territory when it comes to talking about balance. Both sets are also overloaded IMO, but hey, ZOS thinks it is balanced and apparently the players do too since no one is complaining yet.
3. Surprise attack spam is still OP, and not balanced, esp. considering dizzy swing and POWER LASH both losing a similar cheese mechanic attached to their high damage spammability, where power lash lost it years ago but at least required using different skills to proc the stun. Dizzy also at least has a channel, unlike suprise attack, which is instant.
Spamming one skill can still secure kills, whether you believe it or not. If you don't stack some crit damage.
Attaching a stun like that to a skill that does a high amount of damage, on the class with the highest damage potential in the game is ridiculous.
4. Cloak is OP, and spamming it isn't what an NB ought to be doing in most of the cases they do, but they do it because they can and there is zero drawback to it since it makes you untargetable and increases your damage. Every other defense mechanic in the game cannot compare to it, not even streak or BoL despite all the forum noise.
Doesn't matter what I think or you think though; It will just result in the class getting nerfed hard after the next patch when ZOS realizes the changes to DoTs and stealth are a bad idea. I'm good at making predictions, because I wait for the patch to release then release even more broken builds that force nerfs.
I won't be PvPing next patch, so I will enjoy the show
5. "NBs can't heal" being a false statement. NBs have the highest healing potential in the game, it's up to you to determine how you will take advantage of that when building your character out.
6. NB is an easy 1vX class and has more advantages than probably any other class besides sorc, since all other classes can be melted, including sorcs, by simply stacking DoT and burst -- the two things that NB cloak happens to protect you well against when you spam it.
Anyone reading this can disagree, but you know what I said is true. Either way, disagree or not, precisely because its true NB eventually will be nerfed and it will be so, so, incredibly sad to see NB get nerfed because of one skill (well two counting surprise attack) without getting a proper class kit when the time comes. It will be because NBs post noise on the forums defending things they know are broken OP and turning the other way.
KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »ResidentContrarian wrote: »BroughBreaux wrote: »I'd like to see all the people that are perpetually bothered about nightblades actually try to play one and see how much it sucks when you have absolutely no defensive options and you just have to run away, and when that isn't an option, you just die.
Played one, and wiped out a zerg spamming 11-15k surprise attack and cloak. Yeah, real hard class, esp. on the stamina side...
Also, with sets that heal on kills slotted and mark, not that hard healing as a stam player, let alone NB with mark, esp. considering there is plenty of material to proc those sets in Cyrodiil.
You are correct. The idea that NB doesn't have any mitigation or healing first of all is a lie, because when I tank in PVE NB is second best, while DK is #1. With recent changes maybe Tmp is catching up. But NB is far from helpless. And secondly it is a RED HERRING since NO NB in PVP just hangs around trying to heal thru damage, they either cloak or shade away and don't need to have fast/good healing. NICE TRY but irrelevant.
The real point as you say is cloak allows people to get right behind someone and do mega damage. And kill most people almost instantly. And if they run into someone who can live thru that and they are good at NB they can use sneak to get more flank attacks until they kill the enemy.
Also NO ONE is saying a NB just blindly uses cloak over and over and runs out of resources. If they are smart they use it just enough to get a kill or get away. Obviously other classes will beat NB in a sustained 1v1 duel where they don't run away. But in most PVP scenarios using NB with high damage and hit and run is too easy and just boring.
BTW when someone says "Everyone can go invisible. Use pots." as a counter to cloak complaints you know they are not good faith actors.
this sounds like nb would never need to heal and that is maybe true if u gank 1 person but if u fight against a few more maybe gank 1 than there are still a few left and no matter how hard u try if u dont just run away and hide (which is to boring) and try to kill them they will eventually get u cause of 500000mio aoes and thanu drop from 100% health to 20% in below 1sec ...
its true that u can gank many players but often these are either unpreaperes mag sorcs low lvls (everything below 1000) or are just bad but not all people are like that e.g. it is badicly impossible to gank a stam cro cause even if u do the whole combo they will jsut drop by 30% life
Maybe sorc/NB could have a few more resist/healing passives but mostly it is because they build 100% offensively that they can't brawl. If sorc or NB wore some defensive sets they would do OK. But with streak, shade, cloak, they can AVOID most damage outright which is actually OP and way better than any other class when used effectively.
Are you suggesting that sorcs and nightblades can brawl effectively and complete with stam necros/wardens/dks simply if they wear one or more defensive sets and drop streak/shade/cloak?
Yes, as a matter of fact I think most WWs are using sorc/NB with some defensive sets. For the awesome class passives, although it has been a while since I ran one, but it was OP for a while.
KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »ResidentContrarian wrote: »BroughBreaux wrote: »I'd like to see all the people that are perpetually bothered about nightblades actually try to play one and see how much it sucks when you have absolutely no defensive options and you just have to run away, and when that isn't an option, you just die.
Played one, and wiped out a zerg spamming 11-15k surprise attack and cloak. Yeah, real hard class, esp. on the stamina side...
Also, with sets that heal on kills slotted and mark, not that hard healing as a stam player, let alone NB with mark, esp. considering there is plenty of material to proc those sets in Cyrodiil.
You are correct. The idea that NB doesn't have any mitigation or healing first of all is a lie, because when I tank in PVE NB is second best, while DK is #1. With recent changes maybe Tmp is catching up. But NB is far from helpless. And secondly it is a RED HERRING since NO NB in PVP just hangs around trying to heal thru damage, they either cloak or shade away and don't need to have fast/good healing. NICE TRY but irrelevant.
The real point as you say is cloak allows people to get right behind someone and do mega damage. And kill most people almost instantly. And if they run into someone who can live thru that and they are good at NB they can use sneak to get more flank attacks until they kill the enemy.
Also NO ONE is saying a NB just blindly uses cloak over and over and runs out of resources. If they are smart they use it just enough to get a kill or get away. Obviously other classes will beat NB in a sustained 1v1 duel where they don't run away. But in most PVP scenarios using NB with high damage and hit and run is too easy and just boring.
BTW when someone says "Everyone can go invisible. Use pots." as a counter to cloak complaints you know they are not good faith actors.
this sounds like nb would never need to heal and that is maybe true if u gank 1 person but if u fight against a few more maybe gank 1 than there are still a few left and no matter how hard u try if u dont just run away and hide (which is to boring) and try to kill them they will eventually get u cause of 500000mio aoes and thanu drop from 100% health to 20% in below 1sec ...
its true that u can gank many players but often these are either unpreaperes mag sorcs low lvls (everything below 1000) or are just bad but not all people are like that e.g. it is badicly impossible to gank a stam cro cause even if u do the whole combo they will jsut drop by 30% life
Maybe sorc/NB could have a few more resist/healing passives but mostly it is because they build 100% offensively that they can't brawl. If sorc or NB wore some defensive sets they would do OK. But with streak, shade, cloak, they can AVOID most damage outright which is actually OP and way better than any other class when used effectively.
Are you suggesting that sorcs and nightblades can brawl effectively and complete with stam necros/wardens/dks simply if they wear one or more defensive sets and drop streak/shade/cloak?
Yes, as a matter of fact I think most WWs are using sorc/NB with some defensive sets. For the awesome class passives, although it has been a while since I ran one, but it was OP for a while.
And actually come to think of it, literally adding ONE PIECE of gear will make NB or Sorc be able to live if they get in a sticky situation. This thing has the equivalent of THREE 5 piece set defensive bonuses all in ONE. And it works best on these 2 classes because other classes use a lot of blocking to get majority of mitigation.
I would say with this one piece of gear, you can change any sorc/NB build from squishy to average defense. While at the same time having the best escape abilities in the game. Not asking for nerf but this is OP af. BTW to reverse the scenario I tried the new meta stamsorc setup ashen, deadland, 2h vat, sithis, on my stamcro/den and the sorc is way better than both with exact same gear.
KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »ResidentContrarian wrote: »BroughBreaux wrote: »I'd like to see all the people that are perpetually bothered about nightblades actually try to play one and see how much it sucks when you have absolutely no defensive options and you just have to run away, and when that isn't an option, you just die.
Played one, and wiped out a zerg spamming 11-15k surprise attack and cloak. Yeah, real hard class, esp. on the stamina side...
Also, with sets that heal on kills slotted and mark, not that hard healing as a stam player, let alone NB with mark, esp. considering there is plenty of material to proc those sets in Cyrodiil.
You are correct. The idea that NB doesn't have any mitigation or healing first of all is a lie, because when I tank in PVE NB is second best, while DK is #1. With recent changes maybe Tmp is catching up. But NB is far from helpless. And secondly it is a RED HERRING since NO NB in PVP just hangs around trying to heal thru damage, they either cloak or shade away and don't need to have fast/good healing. NICE TRY but irrelevant.
The real point as you say is cloak allows people to get right behind someone and do mega damage. And kill most people almost instantly. And if they run into someone who can live thru that and they are good at NB they can use sneak to get more flank attacks until they kill the enemy.
Also NO ONE is saying a NB just blindly uses cloak over and over and runs out of resources. If they are smart they use it just enough to get a kill or get away. Obviously other classes will beat NB in a sustained 1v1 duel where they don't run away. But in most PVP scenarios using NB with high damage and hit and run is too easy and just boring.
BTW when someone says "Everyone can go invisible. Use pots." as a counter to cloak complaints you know they are not good faith actors.
this sounds like nb would never need to heal and that is maybe true if u gank 1 person but if u fight against a few more maybe gank 1 than there are still a few left and no matter how hard u try if u dont just run away and hide (which is to boring) and try to kill them they will eventually get u cause of 500000mio aoes and thanu drop from 100% health to 20% in below 1sec ...
its true that u can gank many players but often these are either unpreaperes mag sorcs low lvls (everything below 1000) or are just bad but not all people are like that e.g. it is badicly impossible to gank a stam cro cause even if u do the whole combo they will jsut drop by 30% life
Maybe sorc/NB could have a few more resist/healing passives but mostly it is because they build 100% offensively that they can't brawl. If sorc or NB wore some defensive sets they would do OK. But with streak, shade, cloak, they can AVOID most damage outright which is actually OP and way better than any other class when used effectively.
Are you suggesting that sorcs and nightblades can brawl effectively and complete with stam necros/wardens/dks simply if they wear one or more defensive sets and drop streak/shade/cloak?
Yes, as a matter of fact I think most WWs are using sorc/NB with some defensive sets. For the awesome class passives, although it has been a while since I ran one, but it was OP for a while.
And actually come to think of it, literally adding ONE PIECE of gear will make NB or Sorc be able to live if they get in a sticky situation. This thing has the equivalent of THREE 5 piece set defensive bonuses all in ONE. And it works best on these 2 classes because other classes use a lot of blocking to get majority of mitigation.
I would say with this one piece of gear, you can change any sorc/NB build from squishy to average defense. While at the same time having the best escape abilities in the game. Not asking for nerf but this is OP af. BTW to reverse the scenario I tried the new meta stamsorc setup ashen, deadland, 2h vat, sithis, on my stamcro/den and the sorc is way better than both with exact same gear.
Question here - Can a sorc/Nb brawl effectively wearing Sithis alone, to where it can compete with stam necro/warden/DK?
[snip]ResidentContrarian wrote: »
So because you:
1. Choose to use a max damage build with no defense
2. Choose to believe other builds exist with better performance
3. Get killed in PvP as an NB
4. Get hit by various builds for different values on ultimates
5. Have less health than my mag DK in all light armor without any CP slotted
That is indicative of stam NB not being an easy class?
That is indicative of spamming surprise attack not being op?
That is indicative of cloak and invis mechanics not being op?
That is indicative of other specs being stronger?
BroughBreaux wrote: »It's almost like every other class does it better than them. Once again, I'll bring up that Nightblades don't have access to any fast reactive heals like every other class does, which would make brawling pretty difficult wouldn't it? Being a Nightblade brawler is like bringing a knife to a gunfight, except your knife is actually a plastic eating utensil.
The only effective way to play a nightblade is to be a glass cannon. period.