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NightBlades cloak should ramp up in cost when in stealth.

  • ResidentContrarian
    ResidentContrarian
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    rbfrgsp wrote: »
    Not all stamblades crutch on cloak, he is right.

    That isn't the fallacy. The fallacy is saying that cloaking more than twice is crutching, and that no "good" Nightblade has ever cloaked more than twice in a row.


    There is no fallacy it’s just the truth, you should be alternating roll dodge , cloak , and shade on stamblade to keep both your stam and mag resources at good levels.


    Maybe you’re just not at the level to recognize it

    Not to mention that if cloak is broken, it's almost always either a siege attack or other direct damage attack with more than one pulse like jabs. Spamming cloak in a situation like that is pointless...

    If you ask me, cloak is only really usable to avoid damage at a range since melee range or targeted direct damage becomes harder to target the further a play is and the wider their area to cover, otherwise its always better to block -> roll -> cloak or roll -> cloak.

    Spamming cloak only gives a huge advantage vs two specs in the game, ironically both bottom-tier: mag DK and mag NB.

    Players will learn the hard way what imbalance causes in the game, but then again maybe I am wrong. Maybe I am just a Contrarian...

    Just my added opinion on this discussion point.
  • Merforum
    Merforum
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    Xeniph wrote: »
    Merforum wrote: »
    People seem to love red herrings. The main benefit of cloak isn't getting away because shade does that much better. The benefit comes when you cloak in the middle of a fight, where your opponent loses targeting, and you can flank them and get all the massive benefits from that, damage, stun, etc.

    To fix cloak a ramping cost wouldn't do much. But I would say that when in melee range, especially with opponent looking straight at you cuz you are fighting, you should NOT be able to cloak. You should have to run out of melee range first then cloak, and if that was the case ZOS could make the skill even more undetectable. Another change could be that if you hit an enemy from cloak/stealth, you're opponent has 100% inviso detection for 5 seconds, so you can't just cloak/hit/cloak/hit/cloak/hit.

    They already have that mechanic, it's called Stealth.

    I suppose we could change the class defining skill that's supposed to work in your face to...."Try to Hide"

    Joking aside, NB was designed to spam Cloak to control the engagement, that's the sole reason they have it. I get that some folks hate the playstyle, but damn it's super simple.

    Block when they cloak, let them run away when they fail.

    Granted it's a bit tougher after they removed the Invisibility condition on SA/Concealed in favor of the positional, but it still works fine.

    I see most of the complaints and moaning about cloak NOT from a damage/engagement perspective, but rather from a defensive/dis-engagement one. For some reason people really froth at the mouth when people get away in ESO.

    I don't care if they use cloak to get away, only when they use it over and over get get flank, crit, pen, berserk bonuses and with surprise attack will stun enemy. Just hold block doesn't eliminate those bonuses, oh and forgot 1 as vamp getting 300 w/s damage bonus. So as soon as you drop block they can do it again. I'm not saying completely remove the skill just make it more for defense than offense or make it harder to do in melee range. For instance, make it so NB has to get to flank of opponent FIRST then cloak can activate. And/or scaling cost will do nothing really as we see with streak and roll, but a cooldown at least 1 sec longer than skill would help. With all this being said I have had great success with ZOAL set, fearing NB right and left, and killing them easily so not too worried about it. BTW NB are only really bad in cyro/IC but in BGs they are pretty much just there for cheesy kill stealing and kind of useless.
    Edited by Merforum on August 11, 2021 6:45PM
  • ZOS_GregoryV
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  • DrSlaughtr
    DrSlaughtr
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    Merforum wrote: »
    Xeniph wrote: »
    Merforum wrote: »
    People seem to love red herrings. The main benefit of cloak isn't getting away because shade does that much better. The benefit comes when you cloak in the middle of a fight, where your opponent loses targeting, and you can flank them and get all the massive benefits from that, damage, stun, etc.

    To fix cloak a ramping cost wouldn't do much. But I would say that when in melee range, especially with opponent looking straight at you cuz you are fighting, you should NOT be able to cloak. You should have to run out of melee range first then cloak, and if that was the case ZOS could make the skill even more undetectable. Another change could be that if you hit an enemy from cloak/stealth, you're opponent has 100% inviso detection for 5 seconds, so you can't just cloak/hit/cloak/hit/cloak/hit.

    They already have that mechanic, it's called Stealth.

    I suppose we could change the class defining skill that's supposed to work in your face to...."Try to Hide"

    Joking aside, NB was designed to spam Cloak to control the engagement, that's the sole reason they have it. I get that some folks hate the playstyle, but damn it's super simple.

    Block when they cloak, let them run away when they fail.

    Granted it's a bit tougher after they removed the Invisibility condition on SA/Concealed in favor of the positional, but it still works fine.

    I see most of the complaints and moaning about cloak NOT from a damage/engagement perspective, but rather from a defensive/dis-engagement one. For some reason people really froth at the mouth when people get away in ESO.

    I don't care if they use cloak to get away, only when they use it over and over get get flank, crit, pen, berserk bonuses and with surprise attack will stun enemy. Just hold block doesn't eliminate those bonuses, oh and forgot 1 as vamp getting 300 w/s damage bonus. So as soon as you drop block they can do it again. I'm not saying completely remove the skill just make it more for defense than offense or make it harder to do in melee range. For instance, make it so NB has to get to flank of opponent FIRST then cloak can activate. And/or scaling cost will do nothing really as we see with streak and roll, but a cooldown at least 1 sec longer than skill would help. With all this being said I have had great success with ZOAL set, fearing NB right and left, and killing them easily so not too worried about it. BTW NB are only really bad in cyro/IC but in BGs they are pretty much just there for cheesy kill stealing and kind of useless.

    No one is using it over and over because it costs too much. I have 18k mag on my stamblade which gets used for two expensive skills: channeled acceleration and shadowy disguise. It would be a compete waste of resources to stealth attack stealth attack stealth attack. SD costs almost 4k mag. Between those two skills I run out pretty quick if SD is used in succession.

    I roll dodge way more to avoid attacks than use shadowy.

    As for magblade, I can't spam it either because all my offensive skills require mag. If I absolutely have to hit it numerous times in a row, I'm not able to attack, so I'm out of the fight for a bit.

    Every one can get the 300 damage from vamp. Just crouch.

    Everyone can go invisible. Use pots.

    Turning Shadowy Disguise into a target skill that you have to aim at an enemy from behind is one of the worst ideas I've read on this forum in a long time.

    You don't need a cooldown on Shadowy because it already costs a lot and spamming it is pointless. Either you're already sneaking or something is actively preventing you from sneaking, at which point you'll run out of mag trying to avoid being killed. Which means you're dead.
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  • Vylaera
    Vylaera
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    People who make these threads either:

    a.) Don't play Nightblade
    or
    b.) are mad they they die to Nightblades
    or
    c.) both of the above

    Invariably.

    Where a Dragonknight, Sorcerer, Necromancer, Warden, and Templar can buff resistances, and where a Sorcerer can throw up a damage shield, and where a Warden, Necromancer, and Templar can pop massive heals all day long, a Nightblade can't do any of that. A Nightblade has no class heals, we rely completely on 2H's Rally and Assault's Vigor to heal, and both of those, frankly, suck. So a Nightblade has no resistances, no good heals. The only option for a Nightblade to stay alive is to go invisible and run away when being pressured.

    And now people who don't know what they're talking about go cry about nightblades on the forums because they don't like the one single thing we have to stay alive.

    I'd like to see all the people that are perpetually bothered about nightblades actually try to play one and see how much it sucks when you have absolutely no defensive options and you just have to run away, and when that isn't an option, you just die.

    And because of all that, the only viable playstyle is to gank because you can't engage with people openly, and you can't stay alive long enough to kill them with sustained damage. The only option is to be a glass canon that blows hard, or else there's no point in even playing. And factor in how mitigation is getting buffed next patch and it makes scouts' and assassins' lives so much more difficult.

    And by the way, no, stamblades cannot sustain infinite invisibility. Most mageblades cannot either for the same reason stamblades can't sustain rolling for very long. So I have no idea where you got that from.
    Vy • lae • ra
  • ResidentContrarian
    ResidentContrarian
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    I'd like to see all the people that are perpetually bothered about nightblades actually try to play one and see how much it sucks when you have absolutely no defensive options and you just have to run away, and when that isn't an option, you just die.

    Played one, and wiped out a zerg spamming 11-15k surprise attack and cloak. Yeah, real hard class, esp. on the stamina side...

    Also, with sets that heal on kills slotted and mark, not that hard healing as a stam player, let alone NB with mark, esp. considering there is plenty of material to proc those sets in Cyrodiil.

  • Vylaera
    Vylaera
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    Yeah, real hard class, esp. on the stamina side...
    Living up to your username, resident contrarian. Doing high burst at the cost of getting killed by being breathed on isn't suddenly easy because you can run away and potentially still get caught and killed anyway. And if we're talking about bombers, in my experience, I've never seen one make it out alive.
    not that hard healing as a stam player, let alone NB with mark, esp.
    Mark is a red herring. Even if it crits, that's still only a 5-6k heal since healing is halved, and you have to kill someone with it active, meaning you have to commit to the kill, and it can still be purged anyway. Vigor breaks stealth, isn't really even a great heal to begin with, and rally is completely dependent on how long it's been active. Spamming it is resource intensive and will take you out of the fight for a bit to recover stamina, which you don't recover while sneak-running away. Health Regen is halved now, and vampires already had bad health regen, so all of your healing comes from OK-tier abilities.

    Granted, mageblades have a much worse healing kit, that being they don't actually even have one at all, but I don't play mageblade so idk if there's something I missed. I can only speak for stamblade.

    Not to mention that every other class has access to much better healing kits, by far.
    Vy • lae • ra
  • mikey_reach
    mikey_reach
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    It does not make sense unless they buff it real good in return. Careful what you wish for.
  • Merforum
    Merforum
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    I'd like to see all the people that are perpetually bothered about nightblades actually try to play one and see how much it sucks when you have absolutely no defensive options and you just have to run away, and when that isn't an option, you just die.

    Played one, and wiped out a zerg spamming 11-15k surprise attack and cloak. Yeah, real hard class, esp. on the stamina side...

    Also, with sets that heal on kills slotted and mark, not that hard healing as a stam player, let alone NB with mark, esp. considering there is plenty of material to proc those sets in Cyrodiil.

    You are correct. The idea that NB doesn't have any mitigation or healing first of all is a lie, because when I tank in PVE NB is second best, while DK is #1. With recent changes maybe Tmp is catching up. But NB is far from helpless. And secondly it is a RED HERRING since NO NB in PVP just hangs around trying to heal thru damage, they either cloak or shade away and don't need to have fast/good healing. NICE TRY but irrelevant.

    The real point as you say is cloak allows people to get right behind someone and do mega damage. And kill most people almost instantly. And if they run into someone who can live thru that and they are good at NB they can use sneak to get more flank attacks until they kill the enemy.

    Also NO ONE is saying a NB just blindly uses cloak over and over and runs out of resources. If they are smart they use it just enough to get a kill or get away. Obviously other classes will beat NB in a sustained 1v1 duel where they don't run away. But in most PVP scenarios using NB with high damage and hit and run is too easy and just boring.

    BTW when someone says "Everyone can go invisible. Use pots." as a counter to cloak complaints you know they are not good faith actors.
  • DrSlaughtr
    DrSlaughtr
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    I'd like to see all the people that are perpetually bothered about nightblades actually try to play one and see how much it sucks when you have absolutely no defensive options and you just have to run away, and when that isn't an option, you just die.

    Played one, and wiped out a zerg spamming 11-15k surprise attack and cloak. Yeah, real hard class, esp. on the stamina side....

    Yes this sounds like a situation that actually happened. Nothing to see here. Move along.
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  • KhajiitLivesMatter
    KhajiitLivesMatter
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    Merforum wrote: »
    I'd like to see all the people that are perpetually bothered about nightblades actually try to play one and see how much it sucks when you have absolutely no defensive options and you just have to run away, and when that isn't an option, you just die.

    Played one, and wiped out a zerg spamming 11-15k surprise attack and cloak. Yeah, real hard class, esp. on the stamina side...

    Also, with sets that heal on kills slotted and mark, not that hard healing as a stam player, let alone NB with mark, esp. considering there is plenty of material to proc those sets in Cyrodiil.

    You are correct. The idea that NB doesn't have any mitigation or healing first of all is a lie, because when I tank in PVE NB is second best, while DK is #1. With recent changes maybe Tmp is catching up. But NB is far from helpless. And secondly it is a RED HERRING since NO NB in PVP just hangs around trying to heal thru damage, they either cloak or shade away and don't need to have fast/good healing. NICE TRY but irrelevant.

    The real point as you say is cloak allows people to get right behind someone and do mega damage. And kill most people almost instantly. And if they run into someone who can live thru that and they are good at NB they can use sneak to get more flank attacks until they kill the enemy.

    Also NO ONE is saying a NB just blindly uses cloak over and over and runs out of resources. If they are smart they use it just enough to get a kill or get away. Obviously other classes will beat NB in a sustained 1v1 duel where they don't run away. But in most PVP scenarios using NB with high damage and hit and run is too easy and just boring.

    BTW when someone says "Everyone can go invisible. Use pots." as a counter to cloak complaints you know they are not good faith actors.

    this sounds like nb would never need to heal and that is maybe true if u gank 1 person but if u fight against a few more maybe gank 1 than there are still a few left and no matter how hard u try if u dont just run away and hide (which is to boring) and try to kill them they will eventually get u cause of 500000mio aoes and thanu drop from 100% health to 20% in below 1sec ...

    its true that u can gank many players but often these are either unpreaperes mag sorcs low lvls (everything below 1000) or are just bad but not all people are like that e.g. it is badicly impossible to gank a stam cro cause even if u do the whole combo they will jsut drop by 30% life
  • Merforum
    Merforum
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Merforum wrote: »
    I'd like to see all the people that are perpetually bothered about nightblades actually try to play one and see how much it sucks when you have absolutely no defensive options and you just have to run away, and when that isn't an option, you just die.

    Played one, and wiped out a zerg spamming 11-15k surprise attack and cloak. Yeah, real hard class, esp. on the stamina side...

    Also, with sets that heal on kills slotted and mark, not that hard healing as a stam player, let alone NB with mark, esp. considering there is plenty of material to proc those sets in Cyrodiil.

    You are correct. The idea that NB doesn't have any mitigation or healing first of all is a lie, because when I tank in PVE NB is second best, while DK is #1. With recent changes maybe Tmp is catching up. But NB is far from helpless. And secondly it is a RED HERRING since NO NB in PVP just hangs around trying to heal thru damage, they either cloak or shade away and don't need to have fast/good healing. NICE TRY but irrelevant.

    The real point as you say is cloak allows people to get right behind someone and do mega damage. And kill most people almost instantly. And if they run into someone who can live thru that and they are good at NB they can use sneak to get more flank attacks until they kill the enemy.

    Also NO ONE is saying a NB just blindly uses cloak over and over and runs out of resources. If they are smart they use it just enough to get a kill or get away. Obviously other classes will beat NB in a sustained 1v1 duel where they don't run away. But in most PVP scenarios using NB with high damage and hit and run is too easy and just boring.

    BTW when someone says "Everyone can go invisible. Use pots." as a counter to cloak complaints you know they are not good faith actors.

    this sounds like nb would never need to heal and that is maybe true if u gank 1 person but if u fight against a few more maybe gank 1 than there are still a few left and no matter how hard u try if u dont just run away and hide (which is to boring) and try to kill them they will eventually get u cause of 500000mio aoes and thanu drop from 100% health to 20% in below 1sec ...

    its true that u can gank many players but often these are either unpreaperes mag sorcs low lvls (everything below 1000) or are just bad but not all people are like that e.g. it is badicly impossible to gank a stam cro cause even if u do the whole combo they will jsut drop by 30% life

    Yeah there's 1000s of hours of video with NB fighting 1vX all the time. They use shade, cloak, super speed, positional desync, rolling, LOS, etc to AVOID most damage. Obviously they still need a heal to top off when they get away. But they don't need to sit there and soak damage while healing thru it like 4 other classes. Only the sorc with streak + dark deal, have a similarly massive damage avoidance while healing to full.

    Maybe sorc/NB could have a few more resist/healing passives but mostly it is because they build 100% offensively that they can't brawl. If sorc or NB wore some defensive sets they would do OK. But with streak, shade, cloak, they can AVOID most damage outright which is actually OP and way better than any other class when used effectively.
  • NagualV
    NagualV
    ✭✭✭✭
    Merforum wrote: »
    Merforum wrote: »
    I'd like to see all the people that are perpetually bothered about nightblades actually try to play one and see how much it sucks when you have absolutely no defensive options and you just have to run away, and when that isn't an option, you just die.

    Played one, and wiped out a zerg spamming 11-15k surprise attack and cloak. Yeah, real hard class, esp. on the stamina side...

    Also, with sets that heal on kills slotted and mark, not that hard healing as a stam player, let alone NB with mark, esp. considering there is plenty of material to proc those sets in Cyrodiil.

    You are correct. The idea that NB doesn't have any mitigation or healing first of all is a lie, because when I tank in PVE NB is second best, while DK is #1. With recent changes maybe Tmp is catching up. But NB is far from helpless. And secondly it is a RED HERRING since NO NB in PVP just hangs around trying to heal thru damage, they either cloak or shade away and don't need to have fast/good healing. NICE TRY but irrelevant.

    The real point as you say is cloak allows people to get right behind someone and do mega damage. And kill most people almost instantly. And if they run into someone who can live thru that and they are good at NB they can use sneak to get more flank attacks until they kill the enemy.

    Also NO ONE is saying a NB just blindly uses cloak over and over and runs out of resources. If they are smart they use it just enough to get a kill or get away. Obviously other classes will beat NB in a sustained 1v1 duel where they don't run away. But in most PVP scenarios using NB with high damage and hit and run is too easy and just boring.

    BTW when someone says "Everyone can go invisible. Use pots." as a counter to cloak complaints you know they are not good faith actors.

    this sounds like nb would never need to heal and that is maybe true if u gank 1 person but if u fight against a few more maybe gank 1 than there are still a few left and no matter how hard u try if u dont just run away and hide (which is to boring) and try to kill them they will eventually get u cause of 500000mio aoes and thanu drop from 100% health to 20% in below 1sec ...

    its true that u can gank many players but often these are either unpreaperes mag sorcs low lvls (everything below 1000) or are just bad but not all people are like that e.g. it is badicly impossible to gank a stam cro cause even if u do the whole combo they will jsut drop by 30% life

    Maybe sorc/NB could have a few more resist/healing passives but mostly it is because they build 100% offensively that they can't brawl. If sorc or NB wore some defensive sets they would do OK. But with streak, shade, cloak, they can AVOID most damage outright which is actually OP and way better than any other class when used effectively.

    Are you suggesting that sorcs and nightblades can brawl effectively and complete with stam necros/wardens/dks simply if they wear one or more defensive sets and drop streak/shade/cloak?
  • Merforum
    Merforum
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    NagualV wrote: »
    Merforum wrote: »
    Merforum wrote: »
    I'd like to see all the people that are perpetually bothered about nightblades actually try to play one and see how much it sucks when you have absolutely no defensive options and you just have to run away, and when that isn't an option, you just die.

    Played one, and wiped out a zerg spamming 11-15k surprise attack and cloak. Yeah, real hard class, esp. on the stamina side...

    Also, with sets that heal on kills slotted and mark, not that hard healing as a stam player, let alone NB with mark, esp. considering there is plenty of material to proc those sets in Cyrodiil.

    You are correct. The idea that NB doesn't have any mitigation or healing first of all is a lie, because when I tank in PVE NB is second best, while DK is #1. With recent changes maybe Tmp is catching up. But NB is far from helpless. And secondly it is a RED HERRING since NO NB in PVP just hangs around trying to heal thru damage, they either cloak or shade away and don't need to have fast/good healing. NICE TRY but irrelevant.

    The real point as you say is cloak allows people to get right behind someone and do mega damage. And kill most people almost instantly. And if they run into someone who can live thru that and they are good at NB they can use sneak to get more flank attacks until they kill the enemy.

    Also NO ONE is saying a NB just blindly uses cloak over and over and runs out of resources. If they are smart they use it just enough to get a kill or get away. Obviously other classes will beat NB in a sustained 1v1 duel where they don't run away. But in most PVP scenarios using NB with high damage and hit and run is too easy and just boring.

    BTW when someone says "Everyone can go invisible. Use pots." as a counter to cloak complaints you know they are not good faith actors.

    this sounds like nb would never need to heal and that is maybe true if u gank 1 person but if u fight against a few more maybe gank 1 than there are still a few left and no matter how hard u try if u dont just run away and hide (which is to boring) and try to kill them they will eventually get u cause of 500000mio aoes and thanu drop from 100% health to 20% in below 1sec ...

    its true that u can gank many players but often these are either unpreaperes mag sorcs low lvls (everything below 1000) or are just bad but not all people are like that e.g. it is badicly impossible to gank a stam cro cause even if u do the whole combo they will jsut drop by 30% life

    Maybe sorc/NB could have a few more resist/healing passives but mostly it is because they build 100% offensively that they can't brawl. If sorc or NB wore some defensive sets they would do OK. But with streak, shade, cloak, they can AVOID most damage outright which is actually OP and way better than any other class when used effectively.

    Are you suggesting that sorcs and nightblades can brawl effectively and complete with stam necros/wardens/dks simply if they wear one or more defensive sets and drop streak/shade/cloak?

    Yes, as a matter of fact I think most WWs are using sorc/NB with some defensive sets. For the awesome class passives, although it has been a while since I ran one, but it was OP for a while.
    Edited by Merforum on August 15, 2021 8:47PM
  • Merforum
    Merforum
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Merforum wrote: »
    NagualV wrote: »
    Merforum wrote: »
    Merforum wrote: »
    I'd like to see all the people that are perpetually bothered about nightblades actually try to play one and see how much it sucks when you have absolutely no defensive options and you just have to run away, and when that isn't an option, you just die.

    Played one, and wiped out a zerg spamming 11-15k surprise attack and cloak. Yeah, real hard class, esp. on the stamina side...

    Also, with sets that heal on kills slotted and mark, not that hard healing as a stam player, let alone NB with mark, esp. considering there is plenty of material to proc those sets in Cyrodiil.

    You are correct. The idea that NB doesn't have any mitigation or healing first of all is a lie, because when I tank in PVE NB is second best, while DK is #1. With recent changes maybe Tmp is catching up. But NB is far from helpless. And secondly it is a RED HERRING since NO NB in PVP just hangs around trying to heal thru damage, they either cloak or shade away and don't need to have fast/good healing. NICE TRY but irrelevant.

    The real point as you say is cloak allows people to get right behind someone and do mega damage. And kill most people almost instantly. And if they run into someone who can live thru that and they are good at NB they can use sneak to get more flank attacks until they kill the enemy.

    Also NO ONE is saying a NB just blindly uses cloak over and over and runs out of resources. If they are smart they use it just enough to get a kill or get away. Obviously other classes will beat NB in a sustained 1v1 duel where they don't run away. But in most PVP scenarios using NB with high damage and hit and run is too easy and just boring.

    BTW when someone says "Everyone can go invisible. Use pots." as a counter to cloak complaints you know they are not good faith actors.

    this sounds like nb would never need to heal and that is maybe true if u gank 1 person but if u fight against a few more maybe gank 1 than there are still a few left and no matter how hard u try if u dont just run away and hide (which is to boring) and try to kill them they will eventually get u cause of 500000mio aoes and thanu drop from 100% health to 20% in below 1sec ...

    its true that u can gank many players but often these are either unpreaperes mag sorcs low lvls (everything below 1000) or are just bad but not all people are like that e.g. it is badicly impossible to gank a stam cro cause even if u do the whole combo they will jsut drop by 30% life

    Maybe sorc/NB could have a few more resist/healing passives but mostly it is because they build 100% offensively that they can't brawl. If sorc or NB wore some defensive sets they would do OK. But with streak, shade, cloak, they can AVOID most damage outright which is actually OP and way better than any other class when used effectively.

    Are you suggesting that sorcs and nightblades can brawl effectively and complete with stam necros/wardens/dks simply if they wear one or more defensive sets and drop streak/shade/cloak?

    Yes, as a matter of fact I think most WWs are using sorc/NB with some defensive sets. For the awesome class passives, although it has been a while since I ran one, but it was OP for a while.

    And actually come to think of it, literally adding ONE PIECE of gear will make NB or Sorc be able to live if they get in a sticky situation. This thing has the equivalent of THREE 5 piece set defensive bonuses all in ONE. And it works best on these 2 classes because other classes use a lot of blocking to get majority of mitigation.

    I would say with this one piece of gear, you can change any sorc/NB build from squishy to average defense. While at the same time having the best escape abilities in the game. Not asking for nerf but this is OP af. BTW to reverse the scenario I tried the new meta stamsorc setup ashen, deadland, 2h vat, sithis, on my stamcro/den and the sorc is way better than both with exact same gear.
  • mikey_reach
    mikey_reach
    ✭✭✭
    Merforum wrote: »
    I'd like to see all the people that are perpetually bothered about nightblades actually try to play one and see how much it sucks when you have absolutely no defensive options and you just have to run away, and when that isn't an option, you just die.

    Played one, and wiped out a zerg spamming 11-15k surprise attack and cloak. Yeah, real hard class, esp. on the stamina side...

    Also, with sets that heal on kills slotted and mark, not that hard healing as a stam player, let alone NB with mark, esp. considering there is plenty of material to proc those sets in Cyrodiil.

    You are correct. The idea that NB doesn't have any mitigation or healing first of all is a lie, because when I tank in PVE NB is second best, while DK is #1. With recent changes maybe Tmp is catching up. But NB is far from helpless. And secondly it is a RED HERRING since NO NB in PVP just hangs around trying to heal thru damage, they either cloak or shade away and don't need to have fast/good healing. NICE TRY but irrelevant.

    The real point as you say is cloak allows people to get right behind someone and do mega damage. And kill most people almost instantly. And if they run into someone who can live thru that and they are good at NB they can use sneak to get more flank attacks until they kill the enemy.

    Also NO ONE is saying a NB just blindly uses cloak over and over and runs out of resources. If they are smart they use it just enough to get a kill or get away. Obviously other classes will beat NB in a sustained 1v1 duel where they don't run away. But in most PVP scenarios using NB with high damage and hit and run is too easy and just boring.

    BTW when someone says "Everyone can go invisible. Use pots." as a counter to cloak complaints you know they are not good faith actors.

    If by templar tanks catching up you mean that they still are the least useful tanks then yes they are catching up. Also you know what is also irrelevant, using a pve nb example on a pvp scenario. Healing is doubled in pve and hots are way better in pve than pvp where burst is king so of course you would say that their healing and tankiness is not bad. From a pve perspective you are right, but from a pvp one not so much.
    Edited by mikey_reach on August 15, 2021 9:59PM
  • KhajiitLivesMatter
    KhajiitLivesMatter
    ✭✭✭✭
    Merforum wrote: »
    I'd like to see all the people that are perpetually bothered about nightblades actually try to play one and see how much it sucks when you have absolutely no defensive options and you just have to run away, and when that isn't an option, you just die.

    Played one, and wiped out a zerg spamming 11-15k surprise attack and cloak. Yeah, real hard class, esp. on the stamina side...

    Also, with sets that heal on kills slotted and mark, not that hard healing as a stam player, let alone NB with mark, esp. considering there is plenty of material to proc those sets in Cyrodiil.

    You are correct. The idea that NB doesn't have any mitigation or healing first of all is a lie, because when I tank in PVE NB is second best, while DK is #1. With recent changes maybe Tmp is catching up. But NB is far from helpless. And secondly it is a RED HERRING since NO NB in PVP just hangs around trying to heal thru damage, they either cloak or shade away and don't need to have fast/good healing. NICE TRY but irrelevant.

    The real point as you say is cloak allows people to get right behind someone and do mega damage. And kill most people almost instantly. And if they run into someone who can live thru that and they are good at NB they can use sneak to get more flank attacks until they kill the enemy.

    Also NO ONE is saying a NB just blindly uses cloak over and over and runs out of resources. If they are smart they use it just enough to get a kill or get away. Obviously other classes will beat NB in a sustained 1v1 duel where they don't run away. But in most PVP scenarios using NB with high damage and hit and run is too easy and just boring.

    BTW when someone says "Everyone can go invisible. Use pots." as a counter to cloak complaints you know they are not good faith actors.

    this sounds like nb would never need to heal and that is maybe true if u gank 1 person but if u fight against a few more maybe gank 1 than there are still a few left and no matter how hard u try if u dont just run away and hide (which is to boring) and try to kill them they will eventually get u cause of 500000mio aoes and thanu drop from 100% health to 20% in below 1sec ...

    its true that u can gank many players but often these are either unpreaperes mag sorcs low lvls (everything below 1000) or are just bad but not all people are like that e.g. it is badicly impossible to gank a stam cro cause even if u do the whole combo they will jsut drop by 30% life

    yea nb is actually so op that u can kill every blade with a decent combo....
    i was in cyro today for a bit and just looked at the amout of dmg i got when i was stunned/ unavoidble dmg
    dont forget i have 18k life
    - metor 15k
    - curse 9k
    - incap 12k
    - bow proc 14k
    - dawnbnreaker 7-8k
    - blastbones 7k
    - sub assault 7k
    - crystalfrag 11k

    just to name a few examples


    now if u get a 15k metor i am at 3k life which is litterly 1 light atack

    now thats a 1v1 zenario but if it is 1vX and there are maybe 2 good players all it takes to kill a nb is 2 of the above skills maybe pared with a stun

    doenst sound to hard does it
  • Amottica
    Amottica
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    divnyi wrote: »
    NagualV wrote: »
    divnyi wrote: »
    Not all stamblades crutch on cloak, he is right.

    Because stamblades can enter crouch after several cloaks. What about magblades?

    What about magblades?

    I said it hundred times and will say again, if you chose to play dumb. This change will do nothing to stamblades and will remove magblades from PvP. And it's not like magblade is the stronger of the two.

    While I would not have put it quite this way, I do agree. As I noted earlier I have seen players dealing with NBs cloaking and no one is trying to prevent them from cloaking or cancel the cloak. We should figure out how to use such skills to pull them out of cloak instead of asking for a nerf.
  • Sephyr
    Sephyr
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    People who talk about good faith actors, yet not slotting counters to cloak while asking for a nerf is pretty counter-productive.
  • ResidentContrarian
    ResidentContrarian
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Merforum wrote: »
    I'd like to see all the people that are perpetually bothered about nightblades actually try to play one and see how much it sucks when you have absolutely no defensive options and you just have to run away, and when that isn't an option, you just die.

    Played one, and wiped out a zerg spamming 11-15k surprise attack and cloak. Yeah, real hard class, esp. on the stamina side...

    Also, with sets that heal on kills slotted and mark, not that hard healing as a stam player, let alone NB with mark, esp. considering there is plenty of material to proc those sets in Cyrodiil.

    You are correct. The idea that NB doesn't have any mitigation or healing first of all is a lie, because when I tank in PVE NB is second best, while DK is #1. With recent changes maybe Tmp is catching up. But NB is far from helpless. And secondly it is a RED HERRING since NO NB in PVP just hangs around trying to heal thru damage, they either cloak or shade away and don't need to have fast/good healing. NICE TRY but irrelevant.

    The real point as you say is cloak allows people to get right behind someone and do mega damage. And kill most people almost instantly. And if they run into someone who can live thru that and they are good at NB they can use sneak to get more flank attacks until they kill the enemy.

    Also NO ONE is saying a NB just blindly uses cloak over and over and runs out of resources. If they are smart they use it just enough to get a kill or get away. Obviously other classes will beat NB in a sustained 1v1 duel where they don't run away. But in most PVP scenarios using NB with high damage and hit and run is too easy and just boring.

    BTW when someone says "Everyone can go invisible. Use pots." as a counter to cloak complaints you know they are not good faith actors.

    this sounds like nb would never need to heal and that is maybe true if u gank 1 person but if u fight against a few more maybe gank 1 than there are still a few left and no matter how hard u try if u dont just run away and hide (which is to boring) and try to kill them they will eventually get u cause of 500000mio aoes and thanu drop from 100% health to 20% in below 1sec ...

    its true that u can gank many players but often these are either unpreaperes mag sorcs low lvls (everything below 1000) or are just bad but not all people are like that e.g. it is badicly impossible to gank a stam cro cause even if u do the whole combo they will jsut drop by 30% life

    yea nb is actually so op that u can kill every blade with a decent combo....
    i was in cyro today for a bit and just looked at the amout of dmg i got when i was stunned/ unavoidble dmg
    dont forget i have 18k life
    - metor 15k
    - curse 9k
    - incap 12k
    - bow proc 14k
    - dawnbnreaker 7-8k
    - blastbones 7k
    - sub assault 7k
    - crystalfrag 11k

    just to name a few examples


    now if u get a 15k metor i am at 3k life which is litterly 1 light atack

    now thats a 1v1 zenario but if it is 1vX and there are maybe 2 good players all it takes to kill a nb is 2 of the above skills maybe pared with a stun

    doenst sound to hard does it

    So because you:

    1. Choose to use a max damage build with no defense
    2. Choose to believe other builds exist with better performance
    3. Get killed in PvP as an NB
    4. Get hit by various builds for different values on ultimates
    5. Have less health than my mag DK in all light armor without any CP slotted

    That is indicative of stam NB not being an easy class?
    That is indicative of spamming surprise attack not being op?
    That is indicative of cloak and invis mechanics not being op?
    That is indicative of other specs being stronger?

    Nah. I'll tell you what I think as the ResidentContrarian; I think that is indicative of your personal build decisions and choices.

    I think it still doesn't change:

    1. Gaze of Sithis + Pariah creates a super strong stam spec; NB and cloak becomes icing

    2. Sets like Oblivion and Vampires Kiss are OP on NB, esp. if you know how to use them and combine them with mark. With either both or with that Gaze-Pariah setup, esp in CP it's meme territory when it comes to talking about balance. Both sets are also overloaded IMO, but hey, ZOS thinks it is balanced and apparently the players do too since no one is complaining yet.

    3. Surprise attack spam is still OP, and not balanced, esp. considering dizzy swing and POWER LASH both losing a similar cheese mechanic attached to their high damage spammability, where power lash lost it years ago but at least required using different skills to proc the stun. Dizzy also at least has a channel, unlike suprise attack, which is instant.

    Spamming one skill can still secure kills, whether you believe it or not. If you don't stack some crit damage.

    Attaching a stun like that to a skill that does a high amount of damage, on the class with the highest damage potential in the game is ridiculous.

    4. Cloak is OP, and spamming it isn't what an NB ought to be doing in most of the cases they do, but they do it because they can and there is zero drawback to it since it makes you untargetable and increases your damage. Every other defense mechanic in the game cannot compare to it, not even streak or BoL despite all the forum noise.

    Doesn't matter what I think or you think though; It will just result in the class getting nerfed hard after the next patch when ZOS realizes the changes to DoTs and stealth are a bad idea. I'm good at making predictions, because I wait for the patch to release then release even more broken builds that force nerfs.

    I won't be PvPing next patch, so I will enjoy the show B)

    5. "NBs can't heal" being a false statement. NBs have the highest healing potential in the game, it's up to you to determine how you will take advantage of that when building your character out.

    6. NB is an easy 1vX class and has more advantages than probably any other class besides sorc, since all other classes can be melted, including sorcs, by simply stacking DoT and burst -- the two things that NB cloak happens to protect you well against when you spam it.

    Anyone reading this can disagree, but you know what I said is true. Either way, disagree or not, precisely because its true NB eventually will be nerfed and it will be so, so, incredibly sad to see NB get nerfed because of one skill (well two counting surprise attack) without getting a proper class kit when the time comes. It will be because NBs post noise on the forums defending things they know are broken OP and turning the other way.
  • rbfrgsp
    rbfrgsp
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    We've now gone from people saying cloak is too cheap to now saying the Nightblade class is singlehandedly wiping zergs. Safe to say the rhetoric has escalated.

    What is objectively true : play as a vanilla (non vamp) Nightblade and run stat sets, and you are nowhere near overpowered. What does this tell us? That the issues do not lie within NB class skills which, for the first time in three years, are finally starting to compete with other classes.

    And in fact, basically nobody has an issue with NB class kit when played vanilla. What irritates some is the synergy with vampirism that is currently used in a copy-paste build you can find online. This is usually DW, with simmering frenzy up, incap from stealth and then spin2win. That combo is big damage but the issue is damage multiplier stacking, not cloak.

    High damage, one solution: Non-vamp NBs are not hitting anybody for 9k Surprise Attack, which tells us that the issue is not with the Class skills. make incap's subsequent damage bonus apply only to NB class skills. Let Vampire weapon damage bonuses only apply to vampire skill line skills.

    The suggested fix above will separate out those stacked damage multipliers and make players choose: do you want to play primarily as NB, or vamp?

    On stealth: As a longtime NB player, one of my biggest lessons in "getting good" was realising I should rely on invis pots for escaping and not cloak. That is the big difference. And everybody has access to those pots.
    Edited by rbfrgsp on August 16, 2021 7:03AM
  • KhajiitLivesMatter
    KhajiitLivesMatter
    ✭✭✭✭
    Merforum wrote: »
    I'd like to see all the people that are perpetually bothered about nightblades actually try to play one and see how much it sucks when you have absolutely no defensive options and you just have to run away, and when that isn't an option, you just die.

    Played one, and wiped out a zerg spamming 11-15k surprise attack and cloak. Yeah, real hard class, esp. on the stamina side...

    Also, with sets that heal on kills slotted and mark, not that hard healing as a stam player, let alone NB with mark, esp. considering there is plenty of material to proc those sets in Cyrodiil.

    You are correct. The idea that NB doesn't have any mitigation or healing first of all is a lie, because when I tank in PVE NB is second best, while DK is #1. With recent changes maybe Tmp is catching up. But NB is far from helpless. And secondly it is a RED HERRING since NO NB in PVP just hangs around trying to heal thru damage, they either cloak or shade away and don't need to have fast/good healing. NICE TRY but irrelevant.

    The real point as you say is cloak allows people to get right behind someone and do mega damage. And kill most people almost instantly. And if they run into someone who can live thru that and they are good at NB they can use sneak to get more flank attacks until they kill the enemy.

    Also NO ONE is saying a NB just blindly uses cloak over and over and runs out of resources. If they are smart they use it just enough to get a kill or get away. Obviously other classes will beat NB in a sustained 1v1 duel where they don't run away. But in most PVP scenarios using NB with high damage and hit and run is too easy and just boring.

    BTW when someone says "Everyone can go invisible. Use pots." as a counter to cloak complaints you know they are not good faith actors.

    this sounds like nb would never need to heal and that is maybe true if u gank 1 person but if u fight against a few more maybe gank 1 than there are still a few left and no matter how hard u try if u dont just run away and hide (which is to boring) and try to kill them they will eventually get u cause of 500000mio aoes and thanu drop from 100% health to 20% in below 1sec ...

    its true that u can gank many players but often these are either unpreaperes mag sorcs low lvls (everything below 1000) or are just bad but not all people are like that e.g. it is badicly impossible to gank a stam cro cause even if u do the whole combo they will jsut drop by 30% life

    yea nb is actually so op that u can kill every blade with a decent combo....
    i was in cyro today for a bit and just looked at the amout of dmg i got when i was stunned/ unavoidble dmg
    dont forget i have 18k life
    - metor 15k
    - curse 9k
    - incap 12k
    - bow proc 14k
    - dawnbnreaker 7-8k
    - blastbones 7k
    - sub assault 7k
    - crystalfrag 11k

    just to name a few examples


    now if u get a 15k metor i am at 3k life which is litterly 1 light atack

    now thats a 1v1 zenario but if it is 1vX and there are maybe 2 good players all it takes to kill a nb is 2 of the above skills maybe pared with a stun

    doenst sound to hard does it

    So because you:

    1. Choose to use a max damage build with no defense
    2. Choose to believe other builds exist with better performance
    3. Get killed in PvP as an NB
    4. Get hit by various builds for different values on ultimates
    5. Have less health than my mag DK in all light armor without any CP slotted

    That is indicative of stam NB not being an easy class?
    That is indicative of spamming surprise attack not being op?
    That is indicative of cloak and invis mechanics not being op?
    That is indicative of other specs being stronger?

    Nah. I'll tell you what I think as the ResidentContrarian; I think that is indicative of your personal build decisions and choices.

    I think it still doesn't change:

    1. Gaze of Sithis + Pariah creates a super strong stam spec; NB and cloak becomes icing

    2. Sets like Oblivion and Vampires Kiss are OP on NB, esp. if you know how to use them and combine them with mark. With either both or with that Gaze-Pariah setup, esp in CP it's meme territory when it comes to talking about balance. Both sets are also overloaded IMO, but hey, ZOS thinks it is balanced and apparently the players do too since no one is complaining yet.

    3. Surprise attack spam is still OP, and not balanced, esp. considering dizzy swing and POWER LASH both losing a similar cheese mechanic attached to their high damage spammability, where power lash lost it years ago but at least required using different skills to proc the stun. Dizzy also at least has a channel, unlike suprise attack, which is instant.

    Spamming one skill can still secure kills, whether you believe it or not. If you don't stack some crit damage.

    Attaching a stun like that to a skill that does a high amount of damage, on the class with the highest damage potential in the game is ridiculous.

    4. Cloak is OP, and spamming it isn't what an NB ought to be doing in most of the cases they do, but they do it because they can and there is zero drawback to it since it makes you untargetable and increases your damage. Every other defense mechanic in the game cannot compare to it, not even streak or BoL despite all the forum noise.

    Doesn't matter what I think or you think though; It will just result in the class getting nerfed hard after the next patch when ZOS realizes the changes to DoTs and stealth are a bad idea. I'm good at making predictions, because I wait for the patch to release then release even more broken builds that force nerfs.

    I won't be PvPing next patch, so I will enjoy the show B)

    5. "NBs can't heal" being a false statement. NBs have the highest healing potential in the game, it's up to you to determine how you will take advantage of that when building your character out.

    6. NB is an easy 1vX class and has more advantages than probably any other class besides sorc, since all other classes can be melted, including sorcs, by simply stacking DoT and burst -- the two things that NB cloak happens to protect you well against when you spam it.

    Anyone reading this can disagree, but you know what I said is true. Either way, disagree or not, precisely because its true NB eventually will be nerfed and it will be so, so, incredibly sad to see NB get nerfed because of one skill (well two counting surprise attack) without getting a proper class kit when the time comes. It will be because NBs post noise on the forums defending things they know are broken OP and turning the other way.

    ok let me start with the worst mistake u made
    5. sure nb has high healing potential and even the most hp ingame if u use it that way - but its just potential just because nb has access to this skills doenst mean anyone is using them and lets be real stam nb doesnt use ANY class heal (maybe expect the bow proc)


    1. yea i can imagine that a blade with this 2 sets is hard to kill but anyways if u use them ur burst dmg is gone with only 1 offensive set u can burst anyone and this means u would need to skill more dots -> would be a normal build but the problem is otherclasses do the same just better

    2. i dont actualy know which set u mean with oblivon - oblivions foe ? anyway set 2. set vampires Kiss has the same problem as mentioned with pariah above = useless

    3. agree suprice atack stun atm is trash should be reverted to only stun when invisible

    4. cloack is basicly the heart of nb every class has a few essecial skills cloack is the most important one for blades - nerf it to hard and u kill the whole class completly

    6. yea sure cloack prevents dot dmg problem is if u have a few dots affecting u it normaly only takes 1time to get pulled out of cloack to die nearly instantly cause even if u try to heal 2 dots and ur vigor does nothing




    That is indicative of stam NB not being an easy class? yes
    That is indicative of spamming surprise attack not being op? yes
    That is indicative of cloak and invis mechanics not being op? yes
    That is indicative of other specs being stronger? dunno


    i would like to know a bit about u what are u playing want to understand why u hate nb that much ?
  • NagualV
    NagualV
    ✭✭✭✭
    Merforum wrote: »
    NagualV wrote: »
    Merforum wrote: »
    Merforum wrote: »
    I'd like to see all the people that are perpetually bothered about nightblades actually try to play one and see how much it sucks when you have absolutely no defensive options and you just have to run away, and when that isn't an option, you just die.

    Played one, and wiped out a zerg spamming 11-15k surprise attack and cloak. Yeah, real hard class, esp. on the stamina side...

    Also, with sets that heal on kills slotted and mark, not that hard healing as a stam player, let alone NB with mark, esp. considering there is plenty of material to proc those sets in Cyrodiil.

    You are correct. The idea that NB doesn't have any mitigation or healing first of all is a lie, because when I tank in PVE NB is second best, while DK is #1. With recent changes maybe Tmp is catching up. But NB is far from helpless. And secondly it is a RED HERRING since NO NB in PVP just hangs around trying to heal thru damage, they either cloak or shade away and don't need to have fast/good healing. NICE TRY but irrelevant.

    The real point as you say is cloak allows people to get right behind someone and do mega damage. And kill most people almost instantly. And if they run into someone who can live thru that and they are good at NB they can use sneak to get more flank attacks until they kill the enemy.

    Also NO ONE is saying a NB just blindly uses cloak over and over and runs out of resources. If they are smart they use it just enough to get a kill or get away. Obviously other classes will beat NB in a sustained 1v1 duel where they don't run away. But in most PVP scenarios using NB with high damage and hit and run is too easy and just boring.

    BTW when someone says "Everyone can go invisible. Use pots." as a counter to cloak complaints you know they are not good faith actors.

    this sounds like nb would never need to heal and that is maybe true if u gank 1 person but if u fight against a few more maybe gank 1 than there are still a few left and no matter how hard u try if u dont just run away and hide (which is to boring) and try to kill them they will eventually get u cause of 500000mio aoes and thanu drop from 100% health to 20% in below 1sec ...

    its true that u can gank many players but often these are either unpreaperes mag sorcs low lvls (everything below 1000) or are just bad but not all people are like that e.g. it is badicly impossible to gank a stam cro cause even if u do the whole combo they will jsut drop by 30% life

    Maybe sorc/NB could have a few more resist/healing passives but mostly it is because they build 100% offensively that they can't brawl. If sorc or NB wore some defensive sets they would do OK. But with streak, shade, cloak, they can AVOID most damage outright which is actually OP and way better than any other class when used effectively.

    Are you suggesting that sorcs and nightblades can brawl effectively and complete with stam necros/wardens/dks simply if they wear one or more defensive sets and drop streak/shade/cloak?

    Yes, as a matter of fact I think most WWs are using sorc/NB with some defensive sets. For the awesome class passives, although it has been a while since I ran one, but it was OP for a while.

    Fair enough....but here's a follow up question - what if I dont enjoy the brawler playstyle? What then?
  • NagualV
    NagualV
    ✭✭✭✭
    Merforum wrote: »
    Merforum wrote: »
    NagualV wrote: »
    Merforum wrote: »
    Merforum wrote: »
    I'd like to see all the people that are perpetually bothered about nightblades actually try to play one and see how much it sucks when you have absolutely no defensive options and you just have to run away, and when that isn't an option, you just die.

    Played one, and wiped out a zerg spamming 11-15k surprise attack and cloak. Yeah, real hard class, esp. on the stamina side...

    Also, with sets that heal on kills slotted and mark, not that hard healing as a stam player, let alone NB with mark, esp. considering there is plenty of material to proc those sets in Cyrodiil.

    You are correct. The idea that NB doesn't have any mitigation or healing first of all is a lie, because when I tank in PVE NB is second best, while DK is #1. With recent changes maybe Tmp is catching up. But NB is far from helpless. And secondly it is a RED HERRING since NO NB in PVP just hangs around trying to heal thru damage, they either cloak or shade away and don't need to have fast/good healing. NICE TRY but irrelevant.

    The real point as you say is cloak allows people to get right behind someone and do mega damage. And kill most people almost instantly. And if they run into someone who can live thru that and they are good at NB they can use sneak to get more flank attacks until they kill the enemy.

    Also NO ONE is saying a NB just blindly uses cloak over and over and runs out of resources. If they are smart they use it just enough to get a kill or get away. Obviously other classes will beat NB in a sustained 1v1 duel where they don't run away. But in most PVP scenarios using NB with high damage and hit and run is too easy and just boring.

    BTW when someone says "Everyone can go invisible. Use pots." as a counter to cloak complaints you know they are not good faith actors.

    this sounds like nb would never need to heal and that is maybe true if u gank 1 person but if u fight against a few more maybe gank 1 than there are still a few left and no matter how hard u try if u dont just run away and hide (which is to boring) and try to kill them they will eventually get u cause of 500000mio aoes and thanu drop from 100% health to 20% in below 1sec ...

    its true that u can gank many players but often these are either unpreaperes mag sorcs low lvls (everything below 1000) or are just bad but not all people are like that e.g. it is badicly impossible to gank a stam cro cause even if u do the whole combo they will jsut drop by 30% life

    Maybe sorc/NB could have a few more resist/healing passives but mostly it is because they build 100% offensively that they can't brawl. If sorc or NB wore some defensive sets they would do OK. But with streak, shade, cloak, they can AVOID most damage outright which is actually OP and way better than any other class when used effectively.

    Are you suggesting that sorcs and nightblades can brawl effectively and complete with stam necros/wardens/dks simply if they wear one or more defensive sets and drop streak/shade/cloak?

    Yes, as a matter of fact I think most WWs are using sorc/NB with some defensive sets. For the awesome class passives, although it has been a while since I ran one, but it was OP for a while.

    And actually come to think of it, literally adding ONE PIECE of gear will make NB or Sorc be able to live if they get in a sticky situation. This thing has the equivalent of THREE 5 piece set defensive bonuses all in ONE. And it works best on these 2 classes because other classes use a lot of blocking to get majority of mitigation.

    I would say with this one piece of gear, you can change any sorc/NB build from squishy to average defense. While at the same time having the best escape abilities in the game. Not asking for nerf but this is OP af. BTW to reverse the scenario I tried the new meta stamsorc setup ashen, deadland, 2h vat, sithis, on my stamcro/den and the sorc is way better than both with exact same gear.

    Question here - Can a sorc/Nb brawl effectively wearing Sithis alone, to where it can compete with stam necro/warden/DK?
  • KhajiitLivesMatter
    KhajiitLivesMatter
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    NagualV wrote: »
    Merforum wrote: »
    Merforum wrote: »
    NagualV wrote: »
    Merforum wrote: »
    Merforum wrote: »
    I'd like to see all the people that are perpetually bothered about nightblades actually try to play one and see how much it sucks when you have absolutely no defensive options and you just have to run away, and when that isn't an option, you just die.

    Played one, and wiped out a zerg spamming 11-15k surprise attack and cloak. Yeah, real hard class, esp. on the stamina side...

    Also, with sets that heal on kills slotted and mark, not that hard healing as a stam player, let alone NB with mark, esp. considering there is plenty of material to proc those sets in Cyrodiil.

    You are correct. The idea that NB doesn't have any mitigation or healing first of all is a lie, because when I tank in PVE NB is second best, while DK is #1. With recent changes maybe Tmp is catching up. But NB is far from helpless. And secondly it is a RED HERRING since NO NB in PVP just hangs around trying to heal thru damage, they either cloak or shade away and don't need to have fast/good healing. NICE TRY but irrelevant.

    The real point as you say is cloak allows people to get right behind someone and do mega damage. And kill most people almost instantly. And if they run into someone who can live thru that and they are good at NB they can use sneak to get more flank attacks until they kill the enemy.

    Also NO ONE is saying a NB just blindly uses cloak over and over and runs out of resources. If they are smart they use it just enough to get a kill or get away. Obviously other classes will beat NB in a sustained 1v1 duel where they don't run away. But in most PVP scenarios using NB with high damage and hit and run is too easy and just boring.

    BTW when someone says "Everyone can go invisible. Use pots." as a counter to cloak complaints you know they are not good faith actors.

    this sounds like nb would never need to heal and that is maybe true if u gank 1 person but if u fight against a few more maybe gank 1 than there are still a few left and no matter how hard u try if u dont just run away and hide (which is to boring) and try to kill them they will eventually get u cause of 500000mio aoes and thanu drop from 100% health to 20% in below 1sec ...

    its true that u can gank many players but often these are either unpreaperes mag sorcs low lvls (everything below 1000) or are just bad but not all people are like that e.g. it is badicly impossible to gank a stam cro cause even if u do the whole combo they will jsut drop by 30% life

    Maybe sorc/NB could have a few more resist/healing passives but mostly it is because they build 100% offensively that they can't brawl. If sorc or NB wore some defensive sets they would do OK. But with streak, shade, cloak, they can AVOID most damage outright which is actually OP and way better than any other class when used effectively.

    Are you suggesting that sorcs and nightblades can brawl effectively and complete with stam necros/wardens/dks simply if they wear one or more defensive sets and drop streak/shade/cloak?

    Yes, as a matter of fact I think most WWs are using sorc/NB with some defensive sets. For the awesome class passives, although it has been a while since I ran one, but it was OP for a while.

    And actually come to think of it, literally adding ONE PIECE of gear will make NB or Sorc be able to live if they get in a sticky situation. This thing has the equivalent of THREE 5 piece set defensive bonuses all in ONE. And it works best on these 2 classes because other classes use a lot of blocking to get majority of mitigation.

    I would say with this one piece of gear, you can change any sorc/NB build from squishy to average defense. While at the same time having the best escape abilities in the game. Not asking for nerf but this is OP af. BTW to reverse the scenario I tried the new meta stamsorc setup ashen, deadland, 2h vat, sithis, on my stamcro/den and the sorc is way better than both with exact same gear.

    Question here - Can a sorc/Nb brawl effectively wearing Sithis alone, to where it can compete with stam necro/warden/DK?

    and sithis isnt even that good at all btw cause 4k resis are only about 5-6% dr at all time but if u just block for a sec e.g. a metor ull have much more from the 50% dr
  • DrSlaughtr
    DrSlaughtr
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    NB brawlers were a thing for a patch last year. They cannot compete in that mode with the top tier brawler classes. Slapping sithis or pariah robs them of too much damage. They cease to be effective.

    I know plenty of WW players and none of them are NBs.

    [snip]

    [edited for baiting]
    Edited by ZOS_Lunar on August 17, 2021 12:45PM
    I drink and I stream things.
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  • TequilaFire
    TequilaFire
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    IDK, I have played a stamblade brawler since the beginning, never could count on stealth not breaking.
  • Vylaera
    Vylaera
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    So because you:

    1. Choose to use a max damage build with no defense
    2. Choose to believe other builds exist with better performance
    3. Get killed in PvP as an NB
    4. Get hit by various builds for different values on ultimates
    5. Have less health than my mag DK in all light armor without any CP slotted

    That is indicative of stam NB not being an easy class?
    That is indicative of spamming surprise attack not being op?
    That is indicative of cloak and invis mechanics not being op?
    That is indicative of other specs being stronger?
    [snip]

    Nightblades can't brawl as effectively as any other class. [snip] Besides, if they're such good brawlers, why are there absolutely no nightblade brawlers? Surely if NB is as good as you think it is, then there would be at least one in Cyrodiil or the IC, yet there's none. It's almost like every other class does it better than them. Once again, I'll bring up that Nightblades don't have access to any fast reactive heals like every other class does, which would make brawling pretty difficult wouldn't it? Being a Nightblade brawler is like bringing a knife to a gunfight, except your knife is actually a plastic eating utensil.

    The only effective way to play a nightblade is to be a glass cannon. period. And besides, why should everyone be forced to brawl? What would be the point of different classes even existing if everyone is supposed to just build for damage resist and 1v1 or 1vX for 10 minutes before someone finally dies because the damage you do is abysmal? Sorry, that's boring. I want to be a sniper and I want my snipe to actually do damage. I want to sneak around and strategize my attack, not run straight towards an enemy and hit them with a big stick 10,000 times before I've finally done enough damage to kill them. If people want to do that - run around with a big stick - that's their prerogative, but it's my prerogative to sneak around and impale someone with a poisoned arrow, and one is no more imbalanced than the other. It's called having a unique playstyle.

    [snip]

    [edited for baiting]
    Edited by ZOS_Lunar on August 17, 2021 12:47PM
    Vy • lae • ra
  • Ragnaroek93
    Ragnaroek93
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    I'm fine with nerfing Cloak if I get counters to healing, dodge and block and some sustained damage in return.
    I used to think that PvP was a tragedy, but now I realize, it's a comedy.
  • ResidentContrarian
    ResidentContrarian
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    It's almost like every other class does it better than them. Once again, I'll bring up that Nightblades don't have access to any fast reactive heals like every other class does, which would make brawling pretty difficult wouldn't it? Being a Nightblade brawler is like bringing a knife to a gunfight, except your knife is actually a plastic eating utensil.

    The only effective way to play a nightblade is to be a glass cannon. period.

    False statements.

    1. Healing ward is arguably the best heal in the game, esp. if no one else is around. It's even better than slotting Honor the Dead. On the mag side, everyone has access to a burst heal, if they have a restoration staff. On the stam side, most builds only slot vigor and rally anyway + rely on passive healing. I know, because on my stam chars I only slot vigor and no other heal is required. I just have that invisibility+hp potion available, you know that alliance war one. But you can pretend otherwise and claim that a burst heal is needed.

    If you avoid getting damaged in the first place, you wouldn't need so much healing anyway. And cloak is the best skill in the game for avoiding damage! With shade, no other class can avoid damage like NB. Ya'll stop pretending that is not the case. That's why NB doesn't have a burst heal in the sense you think of it, even though NB does with focus, mark, sap, tether...Yeah, not gonna buy the no burst heal argument. I feel more sorry for stam sorcs.

    Not to mention NB also has siphoning strikes, that you choose not to slot or use because it's not easy to use with a gank playstyle. However that is different for a brawling one..

    Not slotting a skill, doesn't make its advantages on the class non-existent.

    2. The only effective way to play is being a glass cannon? Really? When you can be tanky and damage-dealer on any stam class in the game, esp. ones with huge burst like NB? The more potential damage you do, the more tankier you should become because at some point stacking damage stops mattering. Literally no stam NB on live right now should be glass or even feel pushed into doing so, only mag can have the claim they are being pushed to a glass cannon and for reasons out of the scope of this discussion.

    If you having problems being tanky and damaging on an NB, it's not a class balance problem; it's a problem with how you weave. Any NB can come stack crit damage, dual wield, prebuff, out of cloak with a heavy + surprise attack and grim and its a massive amount of pressure if it doesn't kill anyone that isn't a tank build. I know because I do it, and I also complained about stealth damage being too high this patch because I think its stupid to one shot people out of stealth with zero counters on essentially a defensive build.

    3. On glass builds, the game in general is heavily tilted towards damage builds, as long a your opponent is not strong enough to resist it and kill you. NB and buggy stealth mechanics just so happens to be the best class to exploit that right now, which is why you see so many NBs crutching on stealth this patch. Some of you guys seriously doubt that you can kill someone spamming a 12-15k surprise attack from stealth, but I know that you're doubting it to be contrarians.

    You know it's the truth because break free doesn't work and has never worked properly. With the lag and buggy CC in alliance war, you can get 3-4 surprise attacks off before anyone even breaks free. But that is not really what you want to do anyway. If you are certain that people won't be breaking free because the server is lagging, then its always better to come out with that heavy first.

    Considering you can get people with heavy attacks from stealth for 23k damage on live as a stam NB, I think its better we stop this discussion before some nerfs start coming down.

    4. "No brawler NBs in Cyro" -- absolutely false. You claim there is not even one? It's false because I play one on PC NA and so does some other NBs. There are also NBs closer to tank, yet dealing damage that won't slot cloak. Completely false statement.

    But again, free to believe what you want...ever dog has its day, and every dog's day eventually ends. I'm just gonna be enjoying the show. It's already quite entertaining.
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