NightBlades cloak should ramp up in cost when in stealth.

waitwhat

Alucardo wrote: »

Marcus_Aurelius wrote: »

.

Alucardo wrote: »

Marcus_Aurelius wrote: »

This would render the skill useles.

Would that really be such a bad thing?

Magblade does not have a healing skill, it can only rely on resto staff rapid regen that half the time goes to someone else.
How you suggest a magblade could survive then?

I'm just joking. I know magblade isn't in a great place right now because it's my second most played class. My remarks are caused by the disdain I have for stamblades. NOBODY with that much burst damage should have access to a teleport and the ability to become invisible at will. It's actually ridiculous.

Reminds me of when I tell people templars shouldn't have ever existed.

baselesschart

Alucardo wrote: »

I'm just joking. I know magblade isn't in a great place right now because it's my second most played class. My remarks are caused by the disdain I have for stamblades. NOBODY with that much burst damage should have access to a teleport and the ability to become invisible at will. It's actually ridiculous.

Why would you want to get rid of the things that give it so much class identity, separating it from the rest of the classes?
It balances out anyway, any nightblade I have come across with a lot of burst damage also takes a ton of damage in return. I could easily say something similar about brawler wardens: Nobody with that much healing power and tankiness should possess so much burst to kill other players, only difference is that statement makes much more sense from a balance perspective.

Merforum

People seem to love red herrings. The main benefit of cloak isn't getting away because shade does that much better. The benefit comes when you cloak in the middle of a fight, where your opponent loses targeting, and you can flank them and get all the massive benefits from that, damage, stun, etc.

To fix cloak a ramping cost wouldn't do much. But I would say that when in melee range, especially with opponent looking straight at you cuz you are fighting, you should NOT be able to cloak. You should have to run out of melee range first then cloak, and if that was the case ZOS could make the skill even more undetectable. Another change could be that if you hit an enemy from cloak/stealth, you're opponent has 100% inviso detection for 5 seconds, so you can't just cloak/hit/cloak/hit/cloak/hit.

Xeniph

Merforum wrote: »

People seem to love red herrings. The main benefit of cloak isn't getting away because shade does that much better. The benefit comes when you cloak in the middle of a fight, where your opponent loses targeting, and you can flank them and get all the massive benefits from that, damage, stun, etc.

To fix cloak a ramping cost wouldn't do much. But I would say that when in melee range, especially with opponent looking straight at you cuz you are fighting, you should NOT be able to cloak. You should have to run out of melee range first then cloak, and if that was the case ZOS could make the skill even more undetectable. Another change could be that if you hit an enemy from cloak/stealth, you're opponent has 100% inviso detection for 5 seconds, so you can't just cloak/hit/cloak/hit/cloak/hit.

They already have that mechanic, it's called Stealth.

I suppose we could change the class defining skill that's supposed to work in your face to...."Try to Hide"

Joking aside, NB was designed to spam Cloak to control the engagement, that's the sole reason they have it. I get that some folks hate the playstyle, but damn it's super simple.

Block when they cloak, let them run away when they fail.

Granted it's a bit tougher after they removed the Invisibility condition on SA/Concealed in favor of the positional, but it still works fine.

I see most of the complaints and moaning about cloak NOT from a damage/engagement perspective, but rather from a defensive/dis-engagement one. For some reason people really froth at the mouth when people get away in ESO.

AdamLAD

Having instant line of sight which also suppresses dots and incoming projectiles (not all but most) ? Whilst maintaining the ability to heal all the way through? And it can be spammed ? Gives passive resistance when casted ? Gives damage when casted ? And can possibly allow for a stun after casting ? yes seems tuned very well indeed. Wish just one of my abilities give so much for pressing one button which can be spammed.

rbfrgsp

AdamLAD wrote: »

Having instant line of sight which also suppresses dots and incoming projectiles (not all but most) ? Whilst maintaining the ability to heal all the way through? And it can be spammed ? Gives passive resistance when casted ? Gives damage when casted ? And can possibly allow for a stun after casting ? yes seems tuned very well indeed. Wish just one of my abilities give so much for pressing one button which can be spammed.

Build a NB and try to crutch on cloak. You will find that each of those SuperPowers™ you have listed each comes with a massive asterisk.

It seems that the only way to make everyone happy is to make Cloak 100% Unbreakable from all sources (including your own DoT ticks which currently drag you out of your own stealth), and then add the ramping costs.

AdamLAD

Build a NB and try to crutch on cloak. You will find that each of those SuperPowers™ you have listed each comes with a massive asterisk.

It seems that the only way to make everyone happy is to make Cloak 100% Unbreakable from all sources (including your own DoT ticks which currently drag you out of your own stealth), and then add the ramping costs.[/quote]

Nowhere near superpowers, but you confirming that one skill does all that proves my point. Its superpowered when all this is added together. I have fought countless nightblades being crutched by cloak. One skill counters my entire combination. In the law of averages. A nightblades combination will almost each time hit me full force as I do not have access to instant stealth. But for me, I could cast 50 absolutely flawless combos but only like 3 will land out of 50 due to the ease of access of completely mitigating damage through cloak dodge combo. Not only that basic flaw in combat, I have to press about 8 buttons for my combo costing more than 10k magicka. But a nightblade can press one button and use 4k magicka to completely mitigate my combination whilst he still maintains his almost guaranteed combo against me because I do not have cloak. I HAVE to eat the damage most times. He does not.

rbfrgsp

Nope, one skill does not do all that. If you want a permacloaking, high-evade, fast heal fast regen Nightblade then your shopping list is:

Vampirism
Gold food
Tri regen glyphs
Sustain armour.

Essentially, every aspect of your build must be tailored around your area of specialisation. Which is exactly as it should be.

If you lack any one of those things, then you're easy to pull out of stealth, you've no sustain, you cannot cloak more than 3-4 times while in combat. Again: exactly as it should be.

The time people take posting "nerf this" could be spent learning in game how to combat these playstyles. And remember: nobody ever promised you that you would be able to kill every single other player in this game. And, if you could, maybe it's you who should be nerfed.

AdamLAD

How does it not do all that ? Cloak gives a guaranteed critical hit which is damage. Cloak procs the nightblade passive which gives resistance. Cloak is stealth which allows for a stun. Cloak suppresses dots. Cloak suppresses damage skills such as frags, force pulse ect. When in Cloak you still can be healed. Cloak is not ramping cost and can be spammed like crazy. So yes it does do ALL THAT. Thats not me being bias. Thats me literally stating facts. Its like saying 2 + 2 does not equal 4. Yes it does. And no one can answer my problem with combat flaw with cloak. I shall just stick to 50 of my perfect combos being completely nullified by one button whilst they maintain there almost guaranteed full damage combo against me because I haven't got cloak

Andre_Noir

AdamLAD wrote: »

Cloak is stealth which allows for a stun

Srsly go create NB yourself - there is no stun that comes from cloak even against mobs

Xeniph

Merforum wrote: »

People seem to love red herrings. The main benefit of cloak isn't getting away because shade does that much better. The benefit comes when you cloak in the middle of a fight, where your opponent loses targeting, and you can flank them and get all the massive benefits from that, damage, stun, etc.

To fix cloak a ramping cost wouldn't do much. But I would say that when in melee range, especially with opponent looking straight at you cuz you are fighting, you should NOT be able to cloak. You should have to run out of melee range first then cloak, and if that was the case ZOS could make the skill even more undetectable. Another change could be that if you hit an enemy from cloak/stealth, you're opponent has 100% inviso detection for 5 seconds, so you can't just cloak/hit/cloak/hit/cloak/hit.

They already have that mechanic

AdamLAD wrote: »

How does it not do all that ? Cloak gives a guaranteed critical hit which is damage. Cloak procs the nightblade passive which gives resistance. Cloak is stealth which allows for a stun. Cloak suppresses dots. Cloak suppresses damage skills such as frags, force pulse ect. When in Cloak you still can be healed. Cloak is not ramping cost and can be spammed like crazy. So yes it does do ALL THAT. Thats not me being bias. Thats me literally stating facts. Its like saying 2 + 2 does not equal 4. Yes it does. And no one can answer my problem with combat flaw with cloak. I shall just stick to 50 of my perfect combos being completely nullified by one button whilst they maintain there almost guaranteed full damage combo against me because I haven't got cloak

1) Cloak does come with dot suppression, (Direct damage only) this happened when they changed Dark Cloak to a heal and removed it's invisibility, they simply combined the 2 morphs functionalities into one. Though it's nowhere near as useful, as it used to CLEANSE, rather than suppress. Currently it's hit or miss on this function, though the next update it appears to work more reliably.

2) Cloak does not provide a stun, never has. Stealth (or Sneak) and invisibility are two completely separate states in ESO. The Master Assassin passive does provide a stun from Sneak but not invisibility and Surprise/Concealed have a positional requirement now. Cloaking to meet the flanking requirements is terrible, since most folks are trained to -BLOCK- when a NB cloaks, so it's more efficient to roll dodge into the flanking position.

3) They have addressed projectiles missing due to cloak spam, in this next update. We will have to see how it works after all the adjustments.

4) You can't heal in Cloak, you have to be visible to cast all heals now, this was changed ages ago. But hots can continue to roll once in cloak. However I have to point out that casting any hot followed by a quick roll dodge will result in the same benefit. Roll immunity lasts around .1 seconds longer than Cloak. Besides that, anyone can pop a stealth pot and heal in the same manner.

5) All classes have access to Major Resolve/ Ward with times varying from 15-20 seconds. And note ALL of them are on skills that are vastly superior to the shadow barrier passive, which lasts 7 seconds to 12, depending on how much heavy you wear. Though it does free up a slot on the bar, I'd prefer to have an actual useful passive and have more control. *Also note you can spam ANY shadow skill to activate it, not just cloak.

6) Shadowy Disguise does indeed provide 100% crit to an ability used within 3 seconds of casting it, which sounds amazing and useful on paper. With the shift of cloak from an offensive ability to a defencive one a while ago, this buff drops off more than it provides a crit. However it is useful at times. But there is a reason why nearly all PvP NB's used the original cleanse version of Dark Cloak over Shadowy Disguise.
Which is why they combined the functionality of the two morphs and overhauled Dark Cloak. Nobody used Shadowy.

With all that said, there are a vast amount of ways to counter Cloak, not even counting the 4 hard counters that not only stip, but completely prevent cloak. Which are receiving a buff in the next update.

I don't have issues with cloak spammers on my 1vX visible toon, nor my stealthers. I always recommend to folks that do complain, to evaluate their builds, playstyle or possibly both. It also helps if you have intimate knowledge of the NB, that alone usually forgoes the need to utilize any counters, it's so easy.

divnyi

Xeniph wrote: »

With all that said, there are a vast amount of ways to counter Cloak, not even counting the 4 hard counters that not only stip, but completely prevent cloak. Which are receiving a buff in the next update.

Next patch buffs detection skills but also removes uncloaking from AoE dots and set dots. So it is both nerf and buff.

Merforum

Xeniph wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

People seem to love red herrings. The main benefit of cloak isn't getting away because shade does that much better. The benefit comes when you cloak in the middle of a fight, where your opponent loses targeting, and you can flank them and get all the massive benefits from that, damage, stun, etc.

To fix cloak a ramping cost wouldn't do much. But I would say that when in melee range, especially with opponent looking straight at you cuz you are fighting, you should NOT be able to cloak. You should have to run out of melee range first then cloak, and if that was the case ZOS could make the skill even more undetectable. Another change could be that if you hit an enemy from cloak/stealth, you're opponent has 100% inviso detection for 5 seconds, so you can't just cloak/hit/cloak/hit/cloak/hit.

They already have that mechanic, it's called Stealth.

I suppose we could change the class defining skill that's supposed to work in your face to...."Try to Hide"

Joking aside, NB was designed to spam Cloak to control the engagement, that's the sole reason they have it. I get that some folks hate the playstyle, but damn it's super simple.

Block when they cloak, let them run away when they fail.

Granted it's a bit tougher after they removed the Invisibility condition on SA/Concealed in favor of the positional, but it still works fine.

I see most of the complaints and moaning about cloak NOT from a damage/engagement perspective, but rather from a defensive/dis-engagement one. For some reason people really froth at the mouth when people get away in ESO.

Unlike most people who just play one class almost 100% and defend everything about their class while asking to nerf other classes or buff everything (ie anyone who uses phrase 'class identity'), I play all classes and mag/stam for each. Properly used, cloak/shade, streak, BB, shalk among other things are way overtuned to the point of being OP in PVP.

Many threads on this forum is
1. someone starts thread to (legit or not) attack class/skill that is OP (usually NB cloak/shade or sorc streak)
2. same 5 people who main the class jump on thread to defend said OP thing, and counter attack other persons favorite class or attacks straw man
3. back and forth
4. someone pops on to say both streak and cloak/shade are OP
5. both parties attack people who bring up obvious
6. when sorc or NB can no longer defend their OP skills, change subject to warden/necro are the real OP culprit
7. some people agree, yeah stamden/cro are OP in PVP in several ways too
8. thread dies out only to reappear hours or days later

NagualV

People who complain shade/cloak are OP = people who complain streak is OP = people who complain dizzy swing is OP = people who complain pariah/undeath OP = people who complain fossilize is OP = etc etc .......

It's all essentially the same complaint, and the correct response is always the same....learn to play.

NyassaV

This can only happen is nightblade is thrown another bone of sorts. Maybe reduced strife cost, better healing, better sustain through something else.

Plus with streak you literally just press it 4-5 times and you are out of the fight no matter what. But with cloak there is no guarantee you've actually made it out of the fight.

Amottica

Marcus_Aurelius wrote: »

No, there are already so many things that break stealth. This would render the skill useles.

I agree with this I see players dealing with other players disappearing yet for some reason they do not use anything to prevent those players from using cloak or vanishing potions.

Alchimiste1

fred4 wrote: »

BlakMarket wrote: »

Marcus_Aurelius wrote: »

No, there are already so many things that break stealth. This would render the skill useles.

How would it render the skill useless? You just would need to sustain it if you wanted to perma cloak. I run detect pots on all my toons, even on my stam and magdk, I struggle to pull NB's out of stealth.

If I said l2p, I'd probably get thrown out of this thread. Let me try and be more nuanced. Stamblades can't sustain cloak. There may be a few who can with Darloc Brae (and who likely have compromised damage for wearing that set), but most can do maybe 3 successive casts of it. They need magicka for Shadow Image as well. Indeed, if you fail to pull nightblades out of stealth, the likelihood is that they're not cloaking at all, but they're using Shadow Image.

The other factor is speed. A fast character may outrun even the detect pot of a slow one. I'm as fast as they come on my magblade and I can have a hard time keeping another one in range. Let me ask you this, though: What else have I got? Have you played magblade much? If a magblade decides to f off, you gotta let them go. That's their prerogative. If they decide to fight, there are currently - this being the very high damage meta it is - a few builds that hit really hard. For the most part that involves Proxy Det, however, which you have to cast 8s in advance. By and large magblades remain inferior stamblades when it comes to damage. I play a magblade that can sustain perma-cloak. Not all can. Things have gotten a little easier in recent patches, but I still pay a price for that. I have to build a certain way and my damage is not the best. I am also squishy. I play a sustain build, not a tanky build and not a super high damage build, because you can't have everything. Perma-cloak is the one thing I'm looking for, a feature that makes my magblade substantially different to play from my stamblade. You want to take that away from me? From the weak build that has actually made the compromises to get there? No thank you.

Can I take down a 1vX-spec necro / warden / DK on my own with my build? Nope. Could you do it with a duelling-spec magblade? Perhaps. Could you do it with a currently stupidly OP-even-against-single-targets strategically executed bombing? Perhaps. I, however, the perma-cloaking spec, cannot do that. What do you think the likely outcome is against a stam brawler spec, if I square off against them in the open for any length of time? I die. 100%. Who do you think they kill first, if I put myself in the middle of an AvA fight? Me. I've been collateral damage from Crescent Sweeps, Dawnbreakers and Subterranean Assaults that weren't even aimed at me. That should tell you everything you need to know. A nightblade's defense is only as good as their last successful Shadow Image, Cloak or dodge roll. It's a very active defense. If you play a tankier class, a DK, and you can't deal with that, then that's on you. Your main problem is most likely impatience. It's not a slow DKs place to chase a fast nightblade. If they could do that successfully, the nightblade would have nothing left. It relies on being elusive. As a DK you have to wait for the fight to come to you and, then, one well-timed leap / Vateshran / execute combo will likely kill the nightblade. That's when you use the detection potion or skill. Not sooner. Do not expect to actively go hunting nightblades on your class. That's reserved for other nightblades and streaking sorcs.

Aside from this, ZOS are changing a bunch of things next patch already. Cloak mechanics and detection methods are being reworked. The viability of Proxy Det against single targets will be nerfed again.

a good stamblade doesn't need to cloak more than two times in a row tbh. It wouldn't really affect them much

rbfrgsp

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

BlakMarket wrote: »

Marcus_Aurelius wrote: »

No, there are already so many things that break stealth. This would render the skill useles.

How would it render the skill useless? You just would need to sustain it if you wanted to perma cloak. I run detect pots on all my toons, even on my stam and magdk, I struggle to pull NB's out of stealth.

If I said l2p, I'd probably get thrown out of this thread. Let me try and be more nuanced. Stamblades can't sustain cloak. There may be a few who can with Darloc Brae (and who likely have compromised damage for wearing that set), but most can do maybe 3 successive casts of it. They need magicka for Shadow Image as well. Indeed, if you fail to pull nightblades out of stealth, the likelihood is that they're not cloaking at all, but they're using Shadow Image.

The other factor is speed. A fast character may outrun even the detect pot of a slow one. I'm as fast as they come on my magblade and I can have a hard time keeping another one in range. Let me ask you this, though: What else have I got? Have you played magblade much? If a magblade decides to f off, you gotta let them go. That's their prerogative. If they decide to fight, there are currently - this being the very high damage meta it is - a few builds that hit really hard. For the most part that involves Proxy Det, however, which you have to cast 8s in advance. By and large magblades remain inferior stamblades when it comes to damage. I play a magblade that can sustain perma-cloak. Not all can. Things have gotten a little easier in recent patches, but I still pay a price for that. I have to build a certain way and my damage is not the best. I am also squishy. I play a sustain build, not a tanky build and not a super high damage build, because you can't have everything. Perma-cloak is the one thing I'm looking for, a feature that makes my magblade substantially different to play from my stamblade. You want to take that away from me? From the weak build that has actually made the compromises to get there? No thank you.

Can I take down a 1vX-spec necro / warden / DK on my own with my build? Nope. Could you do it with a duelling-spec magblade? Perhaps. Could you do it with a currently stupidly OP-even-against-single-targets strategically executed bombing? Perhaps. I, however, the perma-cloaking spec, cannot do that. What do you think the likely outcome is against a stam brawler spec, if I square off against them in the open for any length of time? I die. 100%. Who do you think they kill first, if I put myself in the middle of an AvA fight? Me. I've been collateral damage from Crescent Sweeps, Dawnbreakers and Subterranean Assaults that weren't even aimed at me. That should tell you everything you need to know. A nightblade's defense is only as good as their last successful Shadow Image, Cloak or dodge roll. It's a very active defense. If you play a tankier class, a DK, and you can't deal with that, then that's on you. Your main problem is most likely impatience. It's not a slow DKs place to chase a fast nightblade. If they could do that successfully, the nightblade would have nothing left. It relies on being elusive. As a DK you have to wait for the fight to come to you and, then, one well-timed leap / Vateshran / execute combo will likely kill the nightblade. That's when you use the detection potion or skill. Not sooner. Do not expect to actively go hunting nightblades on your class. That's reserved for other nightblades and streaking sorcs.

Aside from this, ZOS are changing a bunch of things next patch already. Cloak mechanics and detection methods are being reworked. The viability of Proxy Det against single targets will be nerfed again.

a good stamblade doesn't need to cloak more than two times in a row tbh. It wouldn't really affect them much

The "No True Scotsman" fallacy. As if you can really reduce such infinite combinations of combat situations, builds, skillbars and whatnot and come up with such a broad observation as this...!

TequilaFire

Not all stamblades crutch on cloak, he is right.

Kory

Andre_Noir wrote: »

BlakMarket wrote: »

It just makes sense.

Ofc. On top of that it should deal damage and stun (unblockable) when u cast it near someone

Yeah an unblockable AOE stun by the way. Would be great.

rbfrgsp

TequilaFire wrote: »

Not all stamblades crutch on cloak, he is right.

That isn't the fallacy. The fallacy is saying that cloaking more than twice is crutching, and that no "good" Nightblade has ever cloaked more than twice in a row.

divnyi

TequilaFire wrote: »

Not all stamblades crutch on cloak, he is right.

Because stamblades can enter crouch after several cloaks. What about magblades?

NagualV

divnyi wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

Not all stamblades crutch on cloak, he is right.

Because stamblades can enter crouch after several cloaks. What about magblades?

What about magblades?

divnyi

NagualV wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

Not all stamblades crutch on cloak, he is right.

Because stamblades can enter crouch after several cloaks. What about magblades?

What about magblades?

I said it hundred times and will say again, if you chose to play dumb. This change will do nothing to stamblades and will remove magblades from PvP. And it's not like magblade is the stronger of the two.

NagualV

divnyi wrote: »

NagualV wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

Not all stamblades crutch on cloak, he is right.

Because stamblades can enter crouch after several cloaks. What about magblades?

What about magblades?

I said it hundred times and will say again, if you chose to play dumb. This change will do nothing to stamblades and will remove magblades from PvP. And it's not like magblade is the stronger of the two.

Lol easy tiger.....I'm a magblade main. I'll admit, I misinterpreted your comment as you advocating for ramping cost on cloak. That's on me.

I agree this wouldnt be a good change. Dark cloak magblades are fun, but cloaking magblades shouldn't have ramping costs on cloak.

The problem with nerf cloak/shade threads is simply that people dont know how to play against nightblades, that's all it is. They dont enjoy/like the playstyle, they dont like that a playstyle is different than theirs, and they feel entitled to catch and kill every single opponent they face. It's a L2P issue.

divnyi

@NagualV sorry ^^'

I agree with your conclusion - it is l2p issue, sometimes build issue (if you have no uncloak skill and no AoE, you basically can't catch). Once you try to catch NBs with tools like bombard you'll understand how trivial that is.

Artim_X

I wonder how cloak discussions will look like once the pts changes to invisibility go live... Invisibility is going to become harder to break, but one will be able to take damage while invisible so might see more night blades slotting purge.

Once cloak becomes reliable to use, ZOS should consider giving it the roll dodge/streak treatment so that it can't be spammed.

Vevvev

Artim_X wrote: »

I wonder how cloak discussions will look like once the pts changes to invisibility go live... Invisibility is going to become harder to break, but one will be able to take damage while invisible so might see more night blades slotting purge.

Once cloak becomes reliable to use, ZOS should consider giving it the roll dodge/streak treatment so that it can't be spammed.

They'll still take damage, and the primary ways to rip a nightblade out of stealth will still work, and will be buffed as well! Direct damage attacks that don't require a target like Engulfing flames and other AoE attacks will still knock them out of stealth, and it's these attacks I primarily use against them anyway. The only thing that will supposedly save them is the second or so of immunity to being ripped out of stealth immediately, but that just means I'll just cast the skill a couple more times or use the buffed magelight ability instead.

DrSlaughtr

At one time there were nightblade brawlers everywhere but that style has fallen significantly behind other classes because they are so much better at brawling. I'm looking at you, wardens, necros and sorcs.

NBs were designed to operate from stealth. If you make cloak useless, what do they have left?

I supposed you could just copy Necro and warden toolkits to nightblade. Then you'd really have something to be mad about.

buzzclops

Is cloak really that good? Honestly i play all the classes and i never struggled to pull nbs out on any of them. Before complaining play nightblade yourself you’ll see how it always breaks vs good players. Inner light and camo hunter are pretty good when you’re fighting them 1v1. Detect pots absolutely counters them, its even funny you can hit them while they keep spamming it because theres no way to know your opponent popped a potion. If a nightblade cant kill you and hes good at maneuvering his cloak let him go thats what the class identity is. I never understood the crying about cloak. Like others say its more about disengagement from fight that ppl hate but in actual combat cloak isnt a very good defensive skill. Those who can juke you with positioning and cloak offensively are the real good nbs but i dont think theres many of them lol