Something has to be done about the fake tank/healer plague, enough is enough.

svendf · July 2021

Selminus wrote: »

Warstory wrote: »

**Edit, I just got around to checking the replies on this and holy crap! This thread should be used as a case study for cherry-picking and selective memory. I can't believe, I refuse to believe that saying "a tank should have to have a taunt or a healer should have to have the ability to heal others on their bar before being able to queue for those roles" is a controversial statement. I refuse to believe it, period. I feel like I am being trolled after reading some of these replies. Let me clear a few things up for those you who are lets say, slightly challenged in the area of reading comprehension.

I am only talking about Vet LFG Dungeons. Normal LFG is beyond easy even for brand new players.

What I mean by "fake tank or fake healer" is a dps that queues for the tank or healer role and doesn't have any intention or ability to tank or heal for the group, just so they can have a fast queue time. I can work with/around a bad tank, healer or dps.

"Basic criteria", Zenimax would have to decide on that, at a bare minimum a taunt for tanks and the ability to heal other for healers before being able to queue for those roles. I am not suggesting they get to decide how you play/build your character.

When I say "lock the gear/skills/talents in place" until the dungeon is over, It's only what gear/skills/talents is needed for the role (decided by Zenimax) and it's so that they are not immediately swapped out when the queue pops. Does that mean they will use them? Nope, It just means they would be actively avoiding using them making kicking easier.

No, I am not just calling out fake tanks or fake healers... There are fake dps too, but the kick system works for those since dps are a dime a dozen, even good dps. The dps slot is filled almost instantly after making a kick, so there is no problem there.**

Every other MMO that has a queue system for dungeons/raids has a way to deal with this. It's to the point now where almost half of the lfg/pugs I do has a fake tank or healer in it, and a lot of the times it's just straight up 4 dps (no taunts and zero heals). I can accept they are bad tanks and healers, no problem. What I can't or won't accept is a dps queuing as a tank or healer just because they somehow think that their time is more valuable and don't want to wait in the queue that dps deal with right now. Vote to kick is not the answer because a fast kick and replacement almost never happens and people would rather just die a whole bunch instead of having to kick/replace/wait for the role to be filled properly. There is no risk or downside to the person queuing into the wrong role other than a slight chance of getting kicked, but even then they can just log onto another character, re-queue (in the wrong role) and end up right back in the group they were just kicked from further wasting everyone's time... (Why is the kicked timer not account wide, [snip]?)

Now before a Captain Obvious stats the obvious...
(Yes, I know I can form my own groups and do.)
(Yes, I do tank and heal and not just dps in pugs.)
(Yes, I know I can leave the group at any time.)
(Yes, I know you can and I have successfully ran 3 and even 4 dps in vet dungeons.)
These are all band aid solutions to a broken system that only rewards the people who are breaking it.

So what can be done to fix the problem? I don't know, I'm not a developer and don't know what is and isn't technically possible with the HeroEngine. If possible, the queue system for LFG needs to have a criteria to look for before allowing someone to queue into a certain role.
Does the person have a taunt on their bar? Check
Does the person have sufficient health to tank the content that was queued for? Check
Does the person have the appropriate armor/armor buffs/shields/and cp talents? Check
If all checks pass, lock the gear/skills/talents in place required for the content and add them to the queue.
A system like this would allow extra rewards for filling and completing certain roles that are badly needed need in the queue like tank, thus speeding up everyone queue.

I know there are a lot of different play-styles and builds out there but there needs to be a bare minimum criteria in place to allow someone to queue for certain roles, otherwise little Timmy Turbo is just going to keep abusing the queue and wasting everyone's time. The only other options are to allow reporting and banning of people abusing the queue (first report a warning, second report 24 hour ban), but this would likely be abused it's self. The other option? Just leave it as it is and dumb down all lfg/pug content to allow for a random 4 dps to clear. What I can say for sure is that the LFG experience has progressively gotten worse over the past couple of years and it needs fixed right now.

They're not going to do anything about it, thousands of people have complained here. They added companions instead. The best any player can do is drop group on these people, I just did it 10 minutes ago. It's inexcusable for people to cut the line without the right toon while the other 2 DDs do it the right way and all of those tanks out there do it the right way.

The saddest part of all of this is that WoW added AI to block it years ago and they're dinosaurs at this point.

I don´t believe they can ignor it as it´s against TOS - what´s is going on is griefing. I can´t imagine any game management accepting this as it will give ESO a bad rap through out the interweb. They can´t have part part of their content being a TOS violating paradise for greifers.

Regardin the companions. Yes they may be part of the solution or one of the steps they are trying out. But the problem here is, that poeple, who wanna do randoms will se their companions being replaced by player´s most of us try to avoid. We need a mechanic where companoins can´t be replaced,, so it´s possible for you and a friend to que randoms and do quests in a more healthy way.

I don´t believe the management and dev team are as ineffective as some people on these forum is painting out. It have to be done right and take time. Im still positive. Exclution and griefing will give any game a bad rap.

In the mean time I can only advice, what I do. Play the game outside the dungeons. Non of my tanks, healers or dds are placing their foot in any group dungeon atm

[edited to remove quote]

Iceman_mat · July 2021

Simple solution:

Make a tank.

Won't make a tank?

You deserve fake ones.

-cheers

josiahva · July 2021

insignismemoria wrote: »

They could just add a "float" role, or even a float queue where there are no assigned roles and it's come as you are. Policing how other people game is not what TES is about, and for all the flawed attempts at re-balancing that don't seem to favor this mindset, ZOS publicly states they want to keep the philosophy of "play your way". Locking any skill or class or race into a role is contradictory to this.

With a "float" role, you could put yourself in as a floater, or if you want to be a DPS but don't mind having anyone fill any role, you could toggle an option that says "accept float for any role/the following roles".

This seems like a blindingly obvious solution that wouldn't actually be that difficult to implement. The people who don't care and just want a short queue will have their way of doing things, without actually taking anything away from the set-role folks. In fact, it might mean that there will be more healers and tanks for the DPS who want dedicated/specialized builds filling those roles.

Personally, though, I think if you're not willing to specialize and fill the role, it's silly to complain when no one else wants to either.

They used to have it so you could select more than one role, you could select all 3 if you wanted...and I often did triple role and would just change my gear and skills to whatever the group needed...it was great...but people whined about "fake tanks and healers" abusing it...so they did away with it...surprise surprise...nothing changed when they did except now people just choose "tank" role when fake tanking. The fact of the matter is that the solution is literally right in front of people...vote to kick, leave if the vote doesn't go your way...anything else is just accepting people not performing their roles. There is no excuse for not using the tools you are given, deserter penalty or not, if you don't do the "right" thing, how can you expect others to?

josiahva · July 2021

alberichtano wrote: »

Arkew wrote: »

the best way to destroy this plague is simple

create spirit system in dungeon like battle spirit in pvp

Tank spirit: increase all defensive buff (you give or have) duration +40 % , armor increased by 10 k , max health +5 K but reduce all damage done by 90 %

DD spirit: increase damage done by 50 % ,increase offensive buff duration (you give or have) by 40 %, reduce all healing/shield done by 90 %

Healer: increase power of healing by 50 %, increase all duration of buff who increase regen by 40 %, reduce all damage done by 90 %

this simple system make fake tanking or healing more punishing for dd because they gonna have their damage nerfed into oblivion and give them no choice of playing the role they tagged.

I wouldn't give the DDs that bonus though, as it actually increases the lust to play DD.

The issue is that tanks are just not needed in most instances (raids, sometimes even just vet raids, aside). Self-heals, good mitigation and getting the boss down fast is better than having a no-good tank or healer along.

If they added a debuff to the tank role that reduced my damage by 90% I would NEVER tank again. FULL STOP. The reason is that I have several tank builds that are mild damage ranging anywhere from 15-25k DPS single target and a lot more on trash packs. To be clear, these builds are not suitable for all fights in all vet dungeons(I dont run normals, couldn't care less about what happens there) but they often let me help groups with low DPS through a dungeon. In particular vet Moongrave Fane, the 2nd fight...its a DPS test....not an insanely high one, but its still a test....pug groups with poor damage may not pass it...but equipping my off-DPS gear and skills will often make the difference. Same thing for vLoM in the courtyard strangler fight...neither of those fights require a pure tank setup and the extra single target and/or AoE damage I can put out as a tank makes the difference in some groups in completing the dungeon or not. Base game vets I always start on my damage setup until I see high enough DPS numbers that swapping to buff sets will raise overall group DPS more. These are real tank builds with resistances 26k+, a taunt, a pull, and some type of CC skill. They are fun to play and I swap to more pure tank setups for whatever fight as needed....but punishing REAL tanks that just might do some damage because of fake tanks MEANS THAT YOU WILL REDUCE THE POPULATION OF REAL TANKS...no ands, ifs, or buts about it. Restricting skills and restricting damage potential for tanks will simply make any tank who likes to do some damage while tanking, stop tanking entirely and go to DPS, because evidently DPS is the only thing that matters in the game....and worse, those tanks that off-DPS...they wont even be GOOD DPS, they will be mediocre at best. I tank because I am not great at DPS to start with....that does NOT mean I don't like doing damage, just that I can contribute more to a group by controlling the battle than being a bad DPS.

starlizard70ub17_ESO · July 2021

Rahar wrote: »

Sure. I'd be for having some basic checks on tank/healer queues. But only if DPS had to go through a lowest common denominator filter, too.

If you're qued as a healer, you should at least be on a character that can heal, I agree with that.
But I've also been on teams where my healer is the highest dps in the group. Now I've been playing for years and my characters are all mostly high level, (whatever that is). And I don't mind helping/carrying other players. But still, you should at least try and kill things if you're queing as dps.

Agenericname · July 2021

alberichtano wrote: »

Arkew wrote: »

the best way to destroy this plague is simple

create spirit system in dungeon like battle spirit in pvp

Tank spirit: increase all defensive buff (you give or have) duration +40 % , armor increased by 10 k , max health +5 K but reduce all damage done by 90 %

DD spirit: increase damage done by 50 % ,increase offensive buff duration (you give or have) by 40 %, reduce all healing/shield done by 90 %

Healer: increase power of healing by 50 %, increase all duration of buff who increase regen by 40 %, reduce all damage done by 90 %

this simple system make fake tanking or healing more punishing for dd because they gonna have their damage nerfed into oblivion and give them no choice of playing the role they tagged.

I wouldn't give the DDs that bonus though, as it actually increases the lust to play DD.

The issue is that tanks are just not needed in most instances (raids, sometimes even just vet raids, aside). Self-heals, good mitigation and getting the boss down fast is better than having a no-good tank or healer along.

Tanks aren't truly needed in normal content. In some vet you can get away without them, but in a lot of cases theyre still very much beneficial. In other content, only a small handful of players are able to get a completion without a tank.

Pen cap is 18.2k. Many players arent close to that in their own. Just major and minor fracture/breach from the tank is just under 9k pen at 8922 iirc. Thats without crusher, Alksoh, Tremorscale, etc. Stamina players do not get pen from armor passives the same way that magicka classes do and even many magicka classes arent going to max pen without a tank.

Grouping adds, especially dangerous ones is a tremendous benefit to the group. You technically can survive some of the vet DLCs without a tank, as they have been soloed, but most groups wont be able to survive without a tank. There's more to this game than just random normal dungeons.

Im already at or as close to pen cap as I need to be. Any additional reists are a waste. An additional 5k health would be okay, but also completely unnecessary. Im a tank. Im already built to survive. If any thing, it would benefit fake tanks more than it would me.

Reduced damage is interesting. Ultimately it would remove real tanks from the queue which wouldnt be beneficial. In most of the groups that I run with my 7k damage is of so little consequence that it isnt worth mentioning. Wearing sets that buff the DPS is far more beneficial, however, in a PUG, that's not always going to be the case. Removing my ability to change the outcome of a run by debuffing my damage in a group that already struggling to do damage would simply make premades the only reasonable choice for a tank.

The smell test if-you-will for suggestions on fake tanking should be; does this adversely impact real tanks. If it does, then it probably isnt going to help because the problem is not enough real tanks in the queue.

As far as punishing fake roles, what makes you think they care? I mean, if their damage is reduced by 90%, but they got a buff with 10k armor and 5k health, they still get a clear and didnt have to wait. How did this deter them? I recently ran a dugeon and our tank's first words were "full disclosure, im not a real tank but BIG dps." For the entire dungeon my DPS was 60% of the groups. Their damage was abysmally low, but they still got their clear and they still had no wait.

xv1_me · July 2021

Warstory wrote: »

**Edit, I just got around to checking the replies on this and holy crap! This thread should be used as a case study for cherry-picking and selective memory. I can't believe, I refuse to believe that saying "a tank should have to have a taunt or a healer should have to have the ability to heal others on their bar before being able to queue for those roles" is a controversial statement. I refuse to believe it, period. I feel like I am being trolled after reading some of these replies. Let me clear a few things up for those you who are lets say, slightly challenged in the area of reading comprehension.

I am only talking about Vet LFG Dungeons. Normal LFG is beyond easy even for brand new players.

What I mean by "fake tank or fake healer" is a dps that queues for the tank or healer role and doesn't have any intention or ability to tank or heal for the group, just so they can have a fast queue time. I can work with/around a bad tank, healer or dps.

"Basic criteria", Zenimax would have to decide on that, at a bare minimum a taunt for tanks and the ability to heal other for healers before being able to queue for those roles. I am not suggesting they get to decide how you play/build your character.

When I say "lock the gear/skills/talents in place" until the dungeon is over, It's only what gear/skills/talents is needed for the role (decided by Zenimax) and it's so that they are not immediately swapped out when the queue pops. Does that mean they will use them? Nope, It just means they would be actively avoiding using them making kicking easier.

No, I am not just calling out fake tanks or fake healers... There are fake dps too, but the kick system works for those since dps are a dime a dozen, even good dps. The dps slot is filled almost instantly after making a kick, so there is no problem there.**

Every other MMO that has a queue system for dungeons/raids has a way to deal with this. It's to the point now where almost half of the lfg/pugs I do has a fake tank or healer in it, and a lot of the times it's just straight up 4 dps (no taunts and zero heals). I can accept they are bad tanks and healers, no problem. What I can't or won't accept is a dps queuing as a tank or healer just because they somehow think that their time is more valuable and don't want to wait in the queue that dps deal with right now. Vote to kick is not the answer because a fast kick and replacement almost never happens and people would rather just die a whole bunch instead of having to kick/replace/wait for the role to be filled properly. There is no risk or downside to the person queuing into the wrong role other than a slight chance of getting kicked, but even then they can just log onto another character, re-queue (in the wrong role) and end up right back in the group they were just kicked from further wasting everyone's time... (Why is the kicked timer not account wide, [snip]?)

Now before a Captain Obvious stats the obvious...
(Yes, I know I can form my own groups and do.)
(Yes, I do tank and heal and not just dps in pugs.)
(Yes, I know I can leave the group at any time.)
(Yes, I know you can and I have successfully ran 3 and even 4 dps in vet dungeons.)
These are all band aid solutions to a broken system that only rewards the people who are breaking it.

So what can be done to fix the problem? I don't know, I'm not a developer and don't know what is and isn't technically possible with the HeroEngine. If possible, the queue system for LFG needs to have a criteria to look for before allowing someone to queue into a certain role.
Does the person have a taunt on their bar? Check
Does the person have sufficient health to tank the content that was queued for? Check
Does the person have the appropriate armor/armor buffs/shields/and cp talents? Check
If all checks pass, lock the gear/skills/talents in place required for the content and add them to the queue.
A system like this would allow extra rewards for filling and completing certain roles that are badly needed need in the queue like tank, thus speeding up everyone queue.

I know there are a lot of different play-styles and builds out there but there needs to be a bare minimum criteria in place to allow someone to queue for certain roles, otherwise little Timmy Turbo is just going to keep abusing the queue and wasting everyone's time. The only other options are to allow reporting and banning of people abusing the queue (first report a warning, second report 24 hour ban), but this would likely be abused it's self. The other option? Just leave it as it is and dumb down all lfg/pug content to allow for a random 4 dps to clear. What I can say for sure is that the LFG experience has progressively gotten worse over the past couple of years and it needs fixed right now.

Maybe stop plugging it?

[edited to remove quote]

Chrysa1is · July 2021

I want to do my daily dungeon finder. Not sit in a queue for ridiculous amounts of time. We queue as tanks or healers because its alot quicker. Id even argue there is a bug with the Damage Group Role.

svendf · July 2021

Chrysa1is wrote: »

I want to do my daily dungeon finder. Not sit in a queue for ridiculous amounts of time. We queue as tanks or healers because its alot quicker. Id even argue there is a bug with the Damage Group Role.

That´s griefing right there xD. How about role out a tank ? You got nine slots or are all these dds ? Huh ZOS is to blame, right ?

I started out as a dd and got three of them until que as dd got a problem - then I roled three tanks and healers. It´s all about me, me , me and me

Huh, got my laugh for today, type Im not able to make a simple work around. My god lol

Amottica · July 2021

Iccotak wrote: »

Avalon wrote: »

Terion_Fyr wrote: »

to make sure people play with the right roles.

"role buffs" are needed.

DD - get higher dmg buff
Tank: More HP and Deff Buff
Heal: More Heal

And since every DD has a Healing Spell, we wont see any need of dedicated Healer. Only in some DLC Vet Content real Tanks are needed. And even there the Tanks heal and shields the Party most of the time.

Healer are dead because of this gamedesign. "build how you want and what you want" - a spellweaving thief with a sword and a shield.

I think there's some promise to this approach, actually. Balance out all of the skills and abilities so that there are no 'tank lines' or 'healer lines' anymore. They are just different skills with different effects. It would allow devs to put a little bit of healing in whatever trees they felt like putting them in, same with abilities that would normally be for tanks. Actually, it would be a LOT more like how the game started!

Remember back at the start, how every class had a pretty mixed set of abilities and buffs, etc? No lines were more or less geared towards a specific role? It was up to US to figure out our builds and run with it? Not like today, where if you are a healer warden, you just grab a resto staff, use your green tree, and you're pretty much set. You know, where every healer warden is basically just a carbon copy of the other healer wardens, maybe an ability different, or different sets, but just about exactly the same? =/

Go back to the start, and instead of doing what they did, make the "queuing" function determine your 'BUFF/DEBUFF' for that run, since you cannot change it once you're in the dungeon.
DPS gets a buff to damage, penetration, duration of negative effects put on enemies; but debuff to resistances, maybe even health.

Healers get a buff to heals, durations of buffs, slight buff to health; debuff to DPS, durations of negative effects put on enemies.

Tanks get a buff to resistances, health, and self-healing (but not as much as the buff to ALL heals the healer gets), every bit of damage you do has a virtual damage 10x higher (not actual damage, but the enemies think you did that much); debuff to DPS, durations of all negative effects put on enemies.

Basically, just destroy the hopes of being whatever roles you are NOT, while giving out buffs to the role-specific activities you SHOULD be performing. If a DPS wanted to queue up as a tank, go for it. You'll be able to be a decently beefy, a bit tanky, guy that cannot help but perform the role at least half-a$$edly. Healers could still be somewhat fake, but by crippling their DPS, only actual healers would probably queue up as a healer.

Just an idea.

everything about this is bad

Now when players do builds they also have to take into account the automatic Debuffs they have when entering group content? Ridiculous. All this does is make it harder on the support roles and everyone else to do their part. Also think of what that does to new players or early level characters

Stop proposing punishments to player - good lord this is not necessary.

EDIT: Also part of a Tanks job is to debuff enemies as well as buff allies - it makes no sense to reduce their abilities to debuff enemies

People don't play Tanks or Healers in Random Queue or much at all because they are not enticing, viable in the rest of the content, or fun to play. You want more people playing "Real Tanks & Healers"? Then make playing one appealing...

Make Tanks & Healers fun and people will play them

I agree. Especially that it does not make sense to weaken the tank's ability to debuff the targets. Heck, part of the main taunt from S&B debuffs the target to increase the damage the group does. I does not make sense to make that last only have the time of the taunt forcing tanks to taunt well before the taunt ends.

I have seen a few of these threads in the ~five months I have been playing ESO and have not seen only one effective idea. Form up with guildmates.

svendf · July 2021

Amottica wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Avalon wrote: »

Terion_Fyr wrote: »

to make sure people play with the right roles.

"role buffs" are needed.

DD - get higher dmg buff
Tank: More HP and Deff Buff
Heal: More Heal

And since every DD has a Healing Spell, we wont see any need of dedicated Healer. Only in some DLC Vet Content real Tanks are needed. And even there the Tanks heal and shields the Party most of the time.

Healer are dead because of this gamedesign. "build how you want and what you want" - a spellweaving thief with a sword and a shield.

I think there's some promise to this approach, actually. Balance out all of the skills and abilities so that there are no 'tank lines' or 'healer lines' anymore. They are just different skills with different effects. It would allow devs to put a little bit of healing in whatever trees they felt like putting them in, same with abilities that would normally be for tanks. Actually, it would be a LOT more like how the game started!

Remember back at the start, how every class had a pretty mixed set of abilities and buffs, etc? No lines were more or less geared towards a specific role? It was up to US to figure out our builds and run with it? Not like today, where if you are a healer warden, you just grab a resto staff, use your green tree, and you're pretty much set. You know, where every healer warden is basically just a carbon copy of the other healer wardens, maybe an ability different, or different sets, but just about exactly the same? =/

Go back to the start, and instead of doing what they did, make the "queuing" function determine your 'BUFF/DEBUFF' for that run, since you cannot change it once you're in the dungeon.
DPS gets a buff to damage, penetration, duration of negative effects put on enemies; but debuff to resistances, maybe even health.

Healers get a buff to heals, durations of buffs, slight buff to health; debuff to DPS, durations of negative effects put on enemies.

Tanks get a buff to resistances, health, and self-healing (but not as much as the buff to ALL heals the healer gets), every bit of damage you do has a virtual damage 10x higher (not actual damage, but the enemies think you did that much); debuff to DPS, durations of all negative effects put on enemies.

Basically, just destroy the hopes of being whatever roles you are NOT, while giving out buffs to the role-specific activities you SHOULD be performing. If a DPS wanted to queue up as a tank, go for it. You'll be able to be a decently beefy, a bit tanky, guy that cannot help but perform the role at least half-a$$edly. Healers could still be somewhat fake, but by crippling their DPS, only actual healers would probably queue up as a healer.

Just an idea.

everything about this is bad

Now when players do builds they also have to take into account the automatic Debuffs they have when entering group content? Ridiculous. All this does is make it harder on the support roles and everyone else to do their part. Also think of what that does to new players or early level characters

Stop proposing punishments to player - good lord this is not necessary.

EDIT: Also part of a Tanks job is to debuff enemies as well as buff allies - it makes no sense to reduce their abilities to debuff enemies

People don't play Tanks or Healers in Random Queue or much at all because they are not enticing, viable in the rest of the content, or fun to play. You want more people playing "Real Tanks & Healers"? Then make playing one appealing...

Make Tanks & Healers fun and people will play them

I agree. Especially that it does not make sense to weaken the tank's ability to debuff the targets. Heck, part of the main taunt from S&B debuffs the target to increase the damage the group does. I does not make sense to make that last only have the time of the taunt forcing tanks to taunt well before the taunt ends.

I have seen a few of these threads in the ~five months I have been playing ESO and have not seen only one effective idea. Form up with guildmates.

Im in three guilds and not in any of these guilds we use each other in nonsens dungeeon runs because we like to have our own game time (like questing, areana runs, collecting mats a s o) you know normal ESO stuff xD. Enjoying the game in different way´s.

You may not like this, but an official tool as gf is should be a safe heaven fore people, who are in guilds with an tight schedule.

also fore people, who want to try other roles and learn them and not left behind to a mob of twenty because they are out of stam (btw a tank is dependen of stam if you don`t know this by now).

When I que as tank(on a real tank) I get a fake healer and queing on one of my healers I get a fake tank and have to tank, through most of the dungeon, which I haven`t asked fore. And on a realy bad day I get a fake tank and healer on my dd

Now. How do you run your randoms ? xD

amm7sb14_ESO · July 2021

jle30303 wrote: »

To be frank: The worst thing about being a tank isn't even the fact that actually trying to win fights is much slower in overland/solo play (although it is) - it's other players.

I agree with your entire post, but I want to highlight this part right here especially.

I am a tank main. My first experience with tanking was with Warhammer Online, and I fell in love with the role. My single player TES characters became tanky builds, and when ESO came out, I knew that tanking was what I wanted to do.

Ideally, I had a love for tanking and heals. I loved the idea of being a massive damage sponge brute who could self heal his way through anything, essentially becoming an unkillable monster.

My time with ESO was always inconsistent, for a number of reasons, going back and forth between active and inactive, PC or X-Box, before coming back at the end of 2019 post-Elsweyr, finally getting a Necromancer class, and finally getting my PC upgraded to having a legitimate gaming PC once again. When I came back, I knew that my Necromancer was going to be a tank. I went back and forth with what that looked like, as I hadn't yet mastered the game's group dynamics, but I eventually settled on 1h / Shield (originally wanted 2h, but learned how that wouldn't work the way I wanted it to) and a Restoration staff back bar.

Due to the concept of the type of character I wanted to make, I went through a number of sets, including Ebon Armory, Shroud of the Lich, and a few others, but eventually I settled myself on Leeching Plate (now, Crimson Twilight) and Grave Guardian, with a Lord Warden monster helm. This gave me exactly the sort of unkillable, self healing monstrosity that I was looking for (sometimes literally with the Goliath ultimate), and my favorite character / playstyle was born.

But it was other players who ruined that for me. Other players demanding I wear different sets, telling me I wasn't a true tank because I wasn't using Yolna / Alkosh, and even saying things to me such as "I feel sorry for your guild for letting you tank for them" and "Your guild should be ashamed of letting you go out and tank like that"

My solution? I took myself out of the dungeon finder, and went to doing group content exclusively with my guild. A group of people who very much love having me around as a tank, love my builds that I run, and love my skills as a tank in this game, for even the hardest of vet group content.

I have slowly started to put myself back in the queue, because sometimes my main guild running buddies aren't around or available, and it gives me an opportunity to get through a lot of the content even when they aren't around, but then I have so many negative encounters that sometimes I'm just flabbergasted.

Just the other night, I did a random vet daily (I do vets because I've gotten bored to tears of normals, and I like collecting the motifs and mats) and the dungeon I got was vet Moongrave Fane. We loaded in, and as the tank, I ran in and pulled the first trash pull. I hadn't seen that one of the DPS had put in group chat "Can you guys hold for a minute", so after we cleared the first pull, I stopped and I said "Of course, np"

The other DPS said "f--- that, I'm not waiting" and proceeded to run into the next trash pulls. The first DPS was still AFK, but myself and the healer ran up to the trash fight, stopped, and watched. As soon as the fight was over, the healer initiated a vote to kick, and we all voted in favor and booted the guy. He left us with a profanity laced tirade before the timer kicked him out of the dungeon.

We replaced the DPS, and the rest of us proceeded on through the dungeon for what was quite possibly one of the smoothest Moongrave Fane runs of my life.

I'd honestly say the vast majority of my PUG runs these days are probably more positive than negative. But it is a shame that the negative ones are still frequent enough, and big enough of an issue, that they stand out and still dampen the PUG experience.

I don't play meta, and I have no expectations of anyone else to either. I have gotten somewhat spoiled, having done some runs with people with massive DPS that can skip through a lot of the more frustrating mechanics (Zaan fight, for example), but I don't need uber DPS mechanics skipping runs. I'm happy to do the mechanics, and honestly, some of the funnest runs I've had have been when ish hits the fan and as a group we have to bail ourselves out of it. I always get a special sense of satisfaction when the entire group wipes in a particularly tough boss fight, and I have to tank my ultimate all the way up to drop my mass-rez and get everyone back up. I've gotten more than a few compliments on my group-saving-tanking performances, and I know I wouldn't have had those experiences and game memories if I was using a cut & paste meta setup like Yolna / Alkosh.

There's a lot of good people to find in PUG's, and a lot of fun to be had with PUG's, but the bad ones are bad enough to drive me away from it. At least I stayed away from PUG's for quite awhile, because I was sick and tired of the negative commentary on my own character from people who don't even play the role I am performing. If you want tanking to be done a certain way, you are more than welcome to create a tank with that setup and bring it into the queue. Otherwise, don't worry about my setup. I promise that I'll get my job duties done.