Agenericname wrote: »ResidentContrarian wrote: »ResidentContrarian wrote: »Does the person have a taunt on their bar? Check
Does the person have sufficient health to tank the content that was queued for? Check
Does the person have the appropriate armor/armor buffs/shields/and cp talents? Check
If all checks pass, lock the gear/skills/talents in place required for the content and add them to the queue.
A system like this would allow extra rewards for filling and completing certain roles that are badly needed need in the queue like tank, thus speeding up everyone queue.
And who are you or anyone else in the community that agrees with this, even the dev team members, to suggest what a person is or is not capable of tanking without solid proof that they cannot complete the content as a tank without your predefined checks...?
Artificial checks in the finder will simply make players not use it. The finder is already a terrible experience most of the time for a healer or tank that solo queues, and you want to punish them because you can't stand how others are abusing the queue?
Then, there is the problem that players can be in a group of 4 already, will you still enforce your requirements on them too? Doubt they need anyone to tell them what their 4-man can complete if they do it all the time and it's their group.
Also locking skills and sets after entering a dungeon is one of the worst ideas I have ever seen posted on this forums and shows you have never been in either the tank or heal role. If you have, you'd know tanks and healers swap gear and skills all the time to help complete runs because the DPS aren't adequate in the dungeon finder.
Lastly, you act as if artificial limitations will make tanks or healers any better in the queue or increase their amount.
It will do neither. The reason is because the game is a massive DPS check. But, even going further than that, there is zero reason for any tank or healer to run dungeons after doing their dailies because it isn't profitable and it's not really fun.
In fact, tanks and healers can lose profit when they expend gems on others or wipe due to a bad party. Not to mention that there is something even more valuable to every person playing the game: time.
Essentially you want yourself, the community, or ZOS to micromanage the tank and heal roles in the dungeon finder to "fix" a problem the kick button solves, and then think that any real tank or healer will accept being micromanaged so you can have what you perceive as "fun" at their expense while wasting their time?
Hard disagree.
How is it a horrible experience? I do 1 random for crystals every day on 5 characters, 1 tank and 2 healers, and never have any real issues.
Spam the vet queue, you will find out eventually
You will eventually find the DPS that think they are doing 1 billion damage a second and can't even outdamage you as a tank. They are very useful in dungeons with hard DPS checks that ZOS keeps adding (or ones player fail to listen to the mechanics to prevent wiping that can be beaten with an alternate strategy like Vet Moongrave Fane).
Why would any sane person pug vets?
Like what's the point?
Normals are excruciatingly boring after a certain point. They're for new(er) players. They see so much traffic because the rewards for the random do not reflect the time and risk involved.
Most groups clear vet just fine. In fact, our damage is so high in comparison to this content that even base game vets are trivialized.
Ive run into the groups that @ResidentContrarian is talking about. Theyre not the norm though. Vet DLCs are my favorite place to PUG. When I do run into them, I kindly explain why, and leave. I can do that without being insulting.
Its worth the risk IMO, but painful sometimes. Still more fun than normals, and fun is why I play.
Vet dungeons are designed to be run with normal dungeon gear, not yellow Vet Trial gear, and the HP pools of enemies reflect that.
Stop complaining about how boring the content is when you overgear it.
ThePianist wrote: »Tanking in console is a lot harder than when I did it on pc. We don’t have add ons that allows us to quickly switch sets between group encounter, first boss, next encounter, second boss... 99% of the time, tanks wear the same armor sets throughout the whole dungeon or trial.
Just to point something out. The base damage has been increased significantly but why is it pve guilds are now requiring 70k dps as bare minimum? It’s because Zos keeps nerfing tanks. The increased base damage offers more utility than a “non-selfish tank set” like Yohl. Aggressive war horn does waaaaaayyy more damage, and that’s if RNG Crit Jesus blesses your rotation.
During the old days of Vmol, 25k dps was a thing. This was also the time where people could easily get 80% crit chance.
As a tank, I join random vet pugs in Craglorn to help people out. VSS, VMOL, VCR, seems to be everyone’s favorite.
With this current patch and the upcoming one. I am against wearing buff sets. Especially in a vet trial like VSS where both tanks are told to wear buff sets yet no one will throw a shard or two at them for synergy resources.
“If you can’t hold 5 iron atronauchs during the fire dragon phase in VSS while wearing two buff sets and not resource/survivability sets, you need to re-evaluate your build, or just do normal trials”- An unknown dps living under a rock, unaware of the amounts of nerfs tanks have gotten.
simple_specops wrote: »[Quoted post was removed]
20k DPS, for normal dungeons? You realize no class can pull that without a monster set from Vet. Unless they get heavily buffed by group and have 100% pot-uptime, and who uses pots on normal?
You can pull more then 20k just with heavy attacks spam and without sets from vet content and without group buffs.
Maybe against a dummy.
Agenericname wrote: »Agenericname wrote: »ResidentContrarian wrote: »ResidentContrarian wrote: »Does the person have a taunt on their bar? Check
Does the person have sufficient health to tank the content that was queued for? Check
Does the person have the appropriate armor/armor buffs/shields/and cp talents? Check
If all checks pass, lock the gear/skills/talents in place required for the content and add them to the queue.
A system like this would allow extra rewards for filling and completing certain roles that are badly needed need in the queue like tank, thus speeding up everyone queue.
And who are you or anyone else in the community that agrees with this, even the dev team members, to suggest what a person is or is not capable of tanking without solid proof that they cannot complete the content as a tank without your predefined checks...?
Artificial checks in the finder will simply make players not use it. The finder is already a terrible experience most of the time for a healer or tank that solo queues, and you want to punish them because you can't stand how others are abusing the queue?
Then, there is the problem that players can be in a group of 4 already, will you still enforce your requirements on them too? Doubt they need anyone to tell them what their 4-man can complete if they do it all the time and it's their group.
Also locking skills and sets after entering a dungeon is one of the worst ideas I have ever seen posted on this forums and shows you have never been in either the tank or heal role. If you have, you'd know tanks and healers swap gear and skills all the time to help complete runs because the DPS aren't adequate in the dungeon finder.
Lastly, you act as if artificial limitations will make tanks or healers any better in the queue or increase their amount.
It will do neither. The reason is because the game is a massive DPS check. But, even going further than that, there is zero reason for any tank or healer to run dungeons after doing their dailies because it isn't profitable and it's not really fun.
In fact, tanks and healers can lose profit when they expend gems on others or wipe due to a bad party. Not to mention that there is something even more valuable to every person playing the game: time.
Essentially you want yourself, the community, or ZOS to micromanage the tank and heal roles in the dungeon finder to "fix" a problem the kick button solves, and then think that any real tank or healer will accept being micromanaged so you can have what you perceive as "fun" at their expense while wasting their time?
Hard disagree.
How is it a horrible experience? I do 1 random for crystals every day on 5 characters, 1 tank and 2 healers, and never have any real issues.
Spam the vet queue, you will find out eventually
You will eventually find the DPS that think they are doing 1 billion damage a second and can't even outdamage you as a tank. They are very useful in dungeons with hard DPS checks that ZOS keeps adding (or ones player fail to listen to the mechanics to prevent wiping that can be beaten with an alternate strategy like Vet Moongrave Fane).
Why would any sane person pug vets?
Like what's the point?
Normals are excruciatingly boring after a certain point. They're for new(er) players. They see so much traffic because the rewards for the random do not reflect the time and risk involved.
Most groups clear vet just fine. In fact, our damage is so high in comparison to this content that even base game vets are trivialized.
Ive run into the groups that @ResidentContrarian is talking about. Theyre not the norm though. Vet DLCs are my favorite place to PUG. When I do run into them, I kindly explain why, and leave. I can do that without being insulting.
Its worth the risk IMO, but painful sometimes. Still more fun than normals, and fun is why I play.
Vet dungeons are designed to be run with normal dungeon gear, not yellow Vet Trial gear, and the HP pools of enemies reflect that.
Stop complaining about how boring the content is when you overgear it.
Why would you think that I wear golded out trial gear?
Gear is often over stated as the culprit for low damage.
simple_specops wrote: »[Quoted post was removed]
20k DPS, for normal dungeons? You realize no class can pull that without a monster set from Vet. Unless they get heavily buffed by group and have 100% pot-uptime, and who uses pots on normal?
You can pull more then 20k just with heavy attacks spam and without sets from vet content and without group buffs.
Maybe against a dummy.
Against regular dummy it'll be around 30k. Against trial dummy around 45k. With just heavy attacks. If You'll add atleast 1 ability it'll be even more.
simple_specops wrote: »[Quoted post was removed]
20k DPS, for normal dungeons? You realize no class can pull that without a monster set from Vet. Unless they get heavily buffed by group and have 100% pot-uptime, and who uses pots on normal?
You can pull more then 20k just with heavy attacks spam and without sets from vet content and without group buffs.
Maybe against a dummy.
Against regular dummy it'll be around 30k. Against trial dummy around 45k. With just heavy attacks. If You'll add atleast 1 ability it'll be even more.
No one cares about dummy dps. You're not fighting a dummy, except in PvP.
simple_specops wrote: »[Quoted post was removed]
20k DPS, for normal dungeons? You realize no class can pull that without a monster set from Vet. Unless they get heavily buffed by group and have 100% pot-uptime, and who uses pots on normal?
You can pull more then 20k just with heavy attacks spam and without sets from vet content and without group buffs.
Maybe against a dummy.
Against regular dummy it'll be around 30k. Against trial dummy around 45k. With just heavy attacks. If You'll add atleast 1 ability it'll be even more.
No one cares about dummy dps. You're not fighting a dummy, except in PvP.
You aren't really reading what's being said to you. You just want to argue.
simple_specops wrote: »[Quoted post was removed]
20k DPS, for normal dungeons? You realize no class can pull that without a monster set from Vet. Unless they get heavily buffed by group and have 100% pot-uptime, and who uses pots on normal?
You can pull more then 20k just with heavy attacks spam and without sets from vet content and without group buffs.
Maybe against a dummy.
Against regular dummy it'll be around 30k. Against trial dummy around 45k. With just heavy attacks. If You'll add atleast 1 ability it'll be even more.
No one cares about dummy dps. You're not fighting a dummy, except in PvP.
Every other MMO that has a queue system for dungeons/raids has a way to deal with this. It's to the point now where almost half of the lfg/pugs I do has a fake tank or healer in it, and a lot of the times it's just straight up 4 dps (no taunts and zero heals). I can accept they are bad tanks and healers, no problem. What I can't or won't accept is a dps queuing as a tank or healer just because they somehow think that their time is more valuable and don't want to wait in the queue that dps deal with right now. Vote to kick is not the answer because a fast kick and replacement almost never happens and people would rather just die a whole bunch instead of having to kick/replace/wait for the role to be filled properly. There is no risk or downside to the person queuing into the wrong role other than a slight chance of getting kicked, but even then they can just log onto another character, re-queue (in the wrong role) and end up right back in the group they were just kicked from further wasting the everyone's time... (Why is the kicked timer not account wide, [snip]?)
Now before a Captain Obvious stats the obvious...
(Yes, I know I can form my own groups and do.)
(Yes, I do tank and heal and not just dps in pugs.)
(Yes, I know I can leave the group at any time.)
(Yes, I know you can and I have successfully ran 3 and even 4 dps in vet dungeons.)
These are all band aid solutions to a broken system that only rewards the people who are breaking it.
So what can be done to fix the problem? I don't know, I'm not a developer and don't know what is and isn't technically possible with the HeroEngine. If possible, the queue system for LFG needs to have a criteria to look for before allowing someone to queue into a certain role.
Does the person have a taunt on their bar? Check
Does the person have sufficient health to tank the content that was queued for? Check
Does the person have the appropriate armor/armor buffs/shields/and cp talents? Check
If all checks pass, lock the gear/skills/talents in place required for the content and add them to the queue.
A system like this would allow extra rewards for filling and completing certain roles that are badly needed need in the queue like tank, thus speeding up everyone queue.
I know there are a lot of different play-styles and builds out there but there needs to be a bare minimum criteria in place to allow someone to queue for certain roles, otherwise little Timmy Turbo is just going to keep abusing the queue and wasting everyone's time. The only other options are to allow reporting and banning of people abusing the queue (first report a warning, second report 24 hour ban), but this would likely be abused it's self. The other option? Just leave it as it is and dumb down all lfg/pug content to allow for a random 4 dps to clear. What I can say for sure is that the LFG experience has progressively gotten worse over the past couple of years and it needs fixed right now.
simple_specops wrote: »[Quoted post was removed]
20k DPS, for normal dungeons? You realize no class can pull that without a monster set from Vet. Unless they get heavily buffed by group and have 100% pot-uptime, and who uses pots on normal?
You can pull more then 20k just with heavy attacks spam and without sets from vet content and without group buffs.
Maybe against a dummy.
Against regular dummy it'll be around 30k. Against trial dummy around 45k. With just heavy attacks. If You'll add atleast 1 ability it'll be even more.
No one cares about dummy dps. You're not fighting a dummy, except in PvP.
You aren't really reading what's being said to you. You just want to argue.
You can't equate dummy damage to actual damage in a dungeon where most of the time the boss keeps teleporting, vanishing and/or becomes immune for long periods of time.
People don't understand parsing at all, yet keep making arguments based on parsing. There's a reason why games like FF14 and SWTOR have worked so hard to prevent people from parsing.
The game is not designed around you whacking a dummy.
simple_specops wrote: »[Quoted post was removed]
20k DPS, for normal dungeons? You realize no class can pull that without a monster set from Vet. Unless they get heavily buffed by group and have 100% pot-uptime, and who uses pots on normal?
You can pull more then 20k just with heavy attacks spam and without sets from vet content and without group buffs.
Maybe against a dummy.
Against regular dummy it'll be around 30k. Against trial dummy around 45k. With just heavy attacks. If You'll add atleast 1 ability it'll be even more.
No one cares about dummy dps. You're not fighting a dummy, except in PvP.
Take wow for example, only specific classes can queue as a tank, and then only the specifically defines tank specialization can do it, and that specialization is designed in a way that tanking can be it's only real job. If you want to dps you pick a different specialization. Its a great system that has worked for year for the purpose it serves and the idea of the Holy Trinity.
simple_specops wrote: »[Quoted post was removed]
20k DPS, for normal dungeons? You realize no class can pull that without a monster set from Vet. Unless they get heavily buffed by group and have 100% pot-uptime, and who uses pots on normal?
You can pull more then 20k just with heavy attacks spam and without sets from vet content and without group buffs.
Maybe against a dummy.
Against regular dummy it'll be around 30k. Against trial dummy around 45k. With just heavy attacks. If You'll add atleast 1 ability it'll be even more.
No one cares about dummy dps. You're not fighting a dummy, except in PvP.
You aren't really reading what's being said to you. You just want to argue.
You can't equate dummy damage to actual damage in a dungeon where most of the time the boss keeps teleporting, vanishing and/or becomes immune for long periods of time.
People don't understand parsing at all, yet keep making arguments based on parsing. There's a reason why games like FF14 and SWTOR have worked so hard to prevent people from parsing.
The game is not designed around you whacking a dummy.
So you are telling me, that if I post a cmx, of a dd, in purple gear (gold weapons is standard, I will not back off on that) 2 crafted sets, normal maelstrom staff, no monster set (are mythics allowed?) Dealing more than 35k on a dungeon boss, in a vet dlc dungeon, you will admit that dummy parsing has an effect in actual content?
ForeverJenn wrote: »I mostly tank and heal. I farm transmute stones from daily dungeons on all my chars. If the group doesn't need my support, I stay back and open containers. If they need me, I'll keep up. I have taught many appreciative players mechanics in DLC. It's how I deal with the crapshoot of randos. Otherwise, I queue with friends
TwiceBornStar wrote: »Elden Hollow II on Veteran. We ended up with a Werewolf Tank. No Taunt. Me and the other DPS carried the whole run.
Good times!