Something has to be done about the fake tank/healer plague, enough is enough.

iksde

Indigogo wrote: »

These posts wouldn't come up if the fake q-ers had acceptable dps. Don't think anyone is complaining if you're clearing the content easily.

They're coming up cause ol mate fake tank does no damage and falls over to skeevers.

right

it is so common to me or my friend when we were solo queue as fake healers for faster queue, for daily random or pledges

we were doing as fake healers for 50%-70%+ of group dps and noone was dying becasue of easy content and yet we were still kickend very often for faking non needed role in that run with our burn and dps carry of group

Zodiarkslayer

The whole group finder tool needs to be reworked, with fake roles in mind.
Just give the option to queue for a 4 DD run or a 1-1-2 or a 1-0-3 or what not....

Or simply remove the option to run as a tank without having 5 heavy armor pieces and a taunt ability slotted. Just lock it.

The game tracks so many stuff simultaneously, that little check is easily implemented. Could even do it client side.

Also a record and combat evaluation of a dungeon run would give feedback to the bad dps. Like star ratings or numbers. The game does that as well for arenas and trials. How difficult can it be?

Sarannah

Xebov wrote: »

Redguards_Revenge wrote: »

You can't solve a problem with a fundamentally broken game. You never hear about people going online and showing how well they tank or how well they heal. Only DPS....ZoS caters to these meatheads almost every patch. People what to feel more powerful and powerful every patch. The only way ZoS could do that is by adding more damage. Then removing it...and then adding it back again....in a cycle.

Thats a very solid point and the truth, good tanking and good healing are always taken as given and are hardy rewarded or recognized.

As a true tank, I do feel rewarded most of the time. As my random dungeon runs are overall very smooth, and I usually barely run into actually low DPS. Which makes me feel that most of the time, the issue with low dps, is bad tanking.

I've been dropped into groups where the tank left, most likely due to bad dps.... and the dps was fine, sometimes good even.

Hexi wrote: »

Anyone with the skill to push 20k DPS can tank and heal everything the game has to offer, and that's bush-league DPS. This notion that Tanking is hard has been going around for over 20 years now, and it's NEVER been true, in any game.

Tanking is more than just taunting the biggest thing in the room: Aggro everything, buff group, debuff mobs, positioning, mechanics for yourself and teammates, situational awareness, resourcemanagement, etc. It is actually quite intense, personally I like to call it a "controlled chaos". There is only so much tanking a person can do before burning out, for me it is only two-three dungeons tops before I need a break.

This is why I also suspect the reason so many players claim to encounter 'fake dps', is actually caused by a bad tank. Dps likes to run circles when they are chased, even if it is only a mudcrab. This massively drops dps.

PS: Most fake tanks/healers also pull terrible DPS, despite of what they themselves think.

Xebov

Hexi wrote: »

but actual tanking is much easier than pushing competitive DPS while not eating mechanics.

I dont agree. Tanking requires a different set of abilitites and capabiltities.
As a tank you have to know how the encounter works and control it, especially boss positioning. You have to be able to identify and prevent any high damage attacks or effects that would either one hit you or your group. You have to be able to manage your resources so you are able to tank the encounter for a variable amount of time, even extended time. You are essentially rarely allowed to mess things up because if you do and die its a group wipe.
On the other side DDs need training to reach high damage values. They dont have to deal with boss positioning or know the whole encounter. If they mess up and run out of resources or die its often not a game over.

Amottica

Joy_Division wrote: »

As far as random normals go, (the only thing I'd que up for with Pugs), I'd rather have a fake tank than a fake DPS.

A "real" DPS will get the job done faster and can bypass the mechanics that need actual "real" tanks.

LOL. Recently we had a fake tank that was the only pug in the group. When they ran ahead of the group and pulled the next boss they died quickly. We were able to handle the boss just fine while the fake tank was dead. One of my guild members commented that it was one thing that they were a fake tank but as a dead DPS they were not very useful. They logged out.

Amottica

Anonx31st wrote: »

An easy solution to solve this problem is to only make the normal random daily for players that are under lvl 50 and the veteran daily would be for players that are at max level. Since veteran dallies and hm's need a real tank to complete when pugging. Additionally, a tank could get a daily incentive bonus reward for queing as a tank using the lfg tool.

This would seem to push lesser experienced players like me to do the veteran dungeons. It would seem the change would lead to greater problems with using the GF based on some comments I have seen such as tanks not using GF due to the poor performance of many DDs they come across.

Hexi

Sarannah wrote: »

Xebov wrote: »

Redguards_Revenge wrote: »

You can't solve a problem with a fundamentally broken game. You never hear about people going online and showing how well they tank or how well they heal. Only DPS....ZoS caters to these meatheads almost every patch. People what to feel more powerful and powerful every patch. The only way ZoS could do that is by adding more damage. Then removing it...and then adding it back again....in a cycle.

Thats a very solid point and the truth, good tanking and good healing are always taken as given and are hardy rewarded or recognized.

As a true tank, I do feel rewarded most of the time. As my random dungeon runs are overall very smooth, and I usually barely run into actually low DPS. Which makes me feel that most of the time, the issue with low dps, is bad tanking.

I've been dropped into groups where the tank left, most likely due to bad dps.... and the dps was fine, sometimes good even.

Hexi wrote: »

Anyone with the skill to push 20k DPS can tank and heal everything the game has to offer, and that's bush-league DPS. This notion that Tanking is hard has been going around for over 20 years now, and it's NEVER been true, in any game.

Tanking is more than just taunting the biggest thing in the room: Aggro everything, buff group, debuff mobs, positioning, mechanics for yourself and teammates, situational awareness, resourcemanagement, etc. It is actually quite intense, personally I like to call it a "controlled chaos". There is only so much tanking a person can do before burning out, for me it is only two-three dungeons tops before I need a break.

This is why I also suspect the reason so many players claim to encounter 'fake dps', is actually caused by a bad tank. Dps likes to run circles when they are chased, even if it is only a mudcrab. This massively drops dps.

PS: Most fake tanks/healers also pull terrible DPS, despite of what they themselves think.

Yeah because healers and dps don't need to do mechanics, manage resources, buff and debuff. You can do 60k+ dps by just spamming light attacks while watching Netflix.

Xebov

Hexi wrote: »

This notion that Tanking is hard has been going around for over 20 years now, and it's NEVER been true, in any game.

Your assumtion is based on top performance, but not on required performance for content. The minimum performance required for tanks is always higher than the minimum required for DDs.
For illustration take the Ice Dragon from VSS.
As a tank you need to have propper gear and know the whole encounter. As one of the tanks you are barely allowed to die as it often results in a group wipe. Depending on the group composition you have to tank the encounter for ~6min (top group) or ~10-12mins with a alot less group DPS. Both cases work, but they also increase the minimum requirement for Tanks.
On the other side with DD you have to know parts of the mechanic but not everything. You can deal medium DPS and you are allowed to die without causing any direct wipe (except for ice prisons of course). The lack in DD skill can be catched up by Tanks and Healers. This results in a much lower minimum requirement for DDs.

If you take this illustration into account the notion becomes true.

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

Or simply remove the option to run as a tank without having 5 heavy armor pieces and a taunt ability slotted. Just lock it.

This would just end up in putting contraints on real tanks. You have to keep in mind that real tanks also sometimes wait in queues and that our tank gear is not suitable for overland or quest content. Meaning if you would implement this rule it would be against real tanks.

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

Also a record and combat evaluation of a dungeon run would give feedback to the bad dps. Like star ratings or numbers. The game does that as well for arenas and trials. How difficult can it be?

I like the idea.

Sarannah wrote: »

I've been dropped into groups where the tank left, most likely due to bad dps.... and the dps was fine, sometimes good even.

You have to look at DPS relative to the content you are doing. It helps if you have the propper addons to actually see it.

At least 50% of the groups i get either barely do 20k or get a bit beyond it. So they have less than 10k per DD and in some cases they go slightly above 10k. Thats with players that are already in the CP500-1000 range. Now thats good enought if you run starter dungeons as the DPS is good enought to create a fluid dungeon group. If you get into DLC dungeons however it can create endless fights and iam not starting on vet dungeons here. So many DDs are in fact just bad DPS wise, the easier content just sometimes covers it up.

Hexi wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Xebov wrote: »

Redguards_Revenge wrote: »

You can't solve a problem with a fundamentally broken game. You never hear about people going online and showing how well they tank or how well they heal. Only DPS....ZoS caters to these meatheads almost every patch. People what to feel more powerful and powerful every patch. The only way ZoS could do that is by adding more damage. Then removing it...and then adding it back again....in a cycle.

Thats a very solid point and the truth, good tanking and good healing are always taken as given and are hardy rewarded or recognized.

As a true tank, I do feel rewarded most of the time. As my random dungeon runs are overall very smooth, and I usually barely run into actually low DPS. Which makes me feel that most of the time, the issue with low dps, is bad tanking.

I've been dropped into groups where the tank left, most likely due to bad dps.... and the dps was fine, sometimes good even.

Hexi wrote: »

Anyone with the skill to push 20k DPS can tank and heal everything the game has to offer, and that's bush-league DPS. This notion that Tanking is hard has been going around for over 20 years now, and it's NEVER been true, in any game.

Tanking is more than just taunting the biggest thing in the room: Aggro everything, buff group, debuff mobs, positioning, mechanics for yourself and teammates, situational awareness, resourcemanagement, etc. It is actually quite intense, personally I like to call it a "controlled chaos". There is only so much tanking a person can do before burning out, for me it is only two-three dungeons tops before I need a break.

This is why I also suspect the reason so many players claim to encounter 'fake dps', is actually caused by a bad tank. Dps likes to run circles when they are chased, even if it is only a mudcrab. This massively drops dps.

PS: Most fake tanks/healers also pull terrible DPS, despite of what they themselves think.

Yeah because healers and dps don't need to do mechanics, manage resources, buff and debuff. You can do 60k+ dps by just spamming light attacks while watching Netflix.

But you also dont usually cause group wipes when you die or briefly run out of resources or mess up mechanics. Especially mechanics are very often just ignored by many DDs.

Starlight_Whisper

Iccotak wrote: »

Starlight_Whisper wrote: »

DtOG wrote: »

If it didn’t take upwards of an hour for a dps que to pop this wouldn’t even be an issue. Your problem isn’t with the fake tanks it’s with the game itself.

Time to increase the number of people in a dungeon

Or just make tanks more viable and fun in gameplay

Healers too, the problem is two fold.

Starlight_Whisper

Sarannah wrote: »

ZOS should fix fake roles. But the issue is not overland content or dungeons not requiring a tank/healer, the issue is players cutting in line because they feel their time is more important then everyone else's. It is selfish behaviour, no matter what they tell themselves. And telling players to expect fake roles, when the dungeonfinder has a clear role-set, is not appropriate. Either do your role, or don't queue. No excuses! (being bad at your role, is not being a fake)

ZOS quickly needs to start understanding, these fake roles are chasing players away from the game. As these new players get to dungeons, and then call it quits due to the horrible experience(s). Enforcing roles is the only way to do this, even if it might hinder builddiversity somewhat.

To get more players to become tanks: Dual spec!

PS: Fake roles do not fill a vacuum, they leave players and groups often with double queue's due to the dungeon failing. The ones abusing fake role instant queue's would abuse it, regardless of the role. They even create more holes, which the dungeonfinder has to fill yet again.
PPS: I have noticed more and more extremely low dps players using the veteran dungeonfinder the last week(s), as they are not taught anything in normal dungeons anymore. Fake tanks actually cause 'fake dps'.

They are cutting in line cause dps queue is too long. It's time for bigger dungeons

ThePianist

Tanking in console is a lot harder than when I did it on pc. We don’t have add ons that allows us to quickly switch sets between group encounter, first boss, next encounter, second boss... 99% of the time, tanks wear the same armor sets throughout the whole dungeon or trial.

Just to point something out. The base damage has been increased significantly but why is it pve guilds are now requiring 70k dps as bare minimum? It’s because Zos keeps nerfing tanks. The increased base damage offers more utility than a “non-selfish tank set” like Yohl. Aggressive war horn does waaaaaayyy more damage, and that’s if RNG Crit Jesus blesses your rotation.

During the old days of Vmol, 25k dps was a thing. This was also the time where people could easily get 80% crit chance.

As a tank, I join random vet pugs in Craglorn to help people out. VSS, VMOL, VCR, seems to be everyone’s favorite.

With this current patch and the upcoming one. I am against wearing buff sets. Especially in a vet trial like VSS where both tanks are told to wear buff sets yet no one will throw a shard or two at them for synergy resources.

“If you can’t hold 5 iron atronauchs during the fire dragon phase in VSS while wearing two buff sets and not resource/survivability sets, you need to re-evaluate your build, or just do normal trials”- An unknown dps living under a rock, unaware of the amounts of nerfs tanks have gotten.

Iccotak

Starlight_Whisper wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

ZOS should fix fake roles. But the issue is not overland content or dungeons not requiring a tank/healer, the issue is players cutting in line because they feel their time is more important then everyone else's. It is selfish behaviour, no matter what they tell themselves. And telling players to expect fake roles, when the dungeonfinder has a clear role-set, is not appropriate. Either do your role, or don't queue. No excuses! (being bad at your role, is not being a fake)

ZOS quickly needs to start understanding, these fake roles are chasing players away from the game. As these new players get to dungeons, and then call it quits due to the horrible experience(s). Enforcing roles is the only way to do this, even if it might hinder builddiversity somewhat.

To get more players to become tanks: Dual spec!

PS: Fake roles do not fill a vacuum, they leave players and groups often with double queue's due to the dungeon failing. The ones abusing fake role instant queue's would abuse it, regardless of the role. They even create more holes, which the dungeonfinder has to fill yet again.
PPS: I have noticed more and more extremely low dps players using the veteran dungeonfinder the last week(s), as they are not taught anything in normal dungeons anymore. Fake tanks actually cause 'fake dps'.

They are cutting in line cause dps queue is too long. It's time for bigger dungeons

Or just make tanks & healers more viable and fun in gameplay. Which sounds like a whole lot less work and more productive than reconfiguring 4 man dungeons into 6+ man dungeons - or making bigger dungeons

The reason the queue time is so long is because Not enough people are playing Tanks or Healers. There would be less DPS wait list if more people played tanks & healers - so the solution is to get people to play the support roles more often.

Avalon

ThePianist wrote: »

“If you can’t hold 5 iron atronauchs during the fire dragon phase in VSS while wearing two buff sets and not resource/survivability sets, you need to re-evaluate your build, or just do normal trials”- An unknown dps living under a rock, unaware of the amounts of nerfs tanks have gotten.

I keep hearing almost exactly this.

Sadly, it's usually from 'healers' who only have regen slotted, and 9 other abilities set up for DPS with something like Shooting Star or Elemental Rage (etc) for ultimates.

THEY don't even have support skills on their bars, or non-selfish sets, etc. Yet, they expect tanks to tank, self-heal through stuff, wear non-selfish sets, AND do the support skills.

Yet, we are constantly seeing how there are fake tanks, and that they are the bane of the game. Well, if 'tank' means all of that, then yeah, every tank is fake, because they can't DO all of that - not enough slots, the skills aren't powerful enough, we need different sets if we are going to have to be self-reliant, etc.

And, if we COULD do all that? We wouldn't need groups. We'd just solo.

Agenericname

Sarannah wrote: »

ZOS should fix fake roles. But the issue is not overland content or dungeons not requiring a tank/healer, the issue is players cutting in line because they feel their time is more important then everyone else's. It is selfish behaviour, no matter what they tell themselves. And telling players to expect fake roles, when the dungeonfinder has a clear role-set, is not appropriate. Either do your role, or don't queue. No excuses! (being bad at your role, is not being a fake)

ZOS quickly needs to start understanding, these fake roles are chasing players away from the game. As these new players get to dungeons, and then call it quits due to the horrible experience(s). Enforcing roles is the only way to do this, even if it might hinder builddiversity somewhat.

To get more players to become tanks: Dual spec!

PS: Fake roles do not fill a vacuum, they leave players and groups often with double queue's due to the dungeon failing. The ones abusing fake role instant queue's would abuse it, regardless of the role. They even create more holes, which the dungeonfinder has to fill yet again.
PPS: I have noticed more and more extremely low dps players using the veteran dungeonfinder the last week(s), as they are not taught anything in normal dungeons anymore. Fake tanks actually cause 'fake dps'.

When you queue as a tank, how long do you wait? That's because the ratio of tanks to DDs is so imbalanced. That's the vacuum. If tanks had to wait, or DDs and tank had the same queue time, we would be closer to equilibrium, but we aren't.

I'm mostly immune to fake tanks. And I'm neither justifying nor condoning fake tanking (assuming it's actually a fake), but if they weren't there, would the queue time be longer or shorter for DDs? Longer. They aren't preventing other tanks from queueing, at all. My queue time is still 0. And since tanks are immune to fake tanks, they aren't discouraging other tanks from trying to learn. They're frustrating to DDs and healers, but not to tanks. The other DDs and healers have a much larger impact on tanks wanting to learn that fake tanks do. So if there is a chokepoint with group content and upcoming tanks, it doesn't lie with fake tanks at all.

Until ZOS changes the rewards, there's a strong possibility that new players aren't going to learn in normal dungeons unless they form their own group. The rewards are the same. Running a RND is the most efficient way (in dungeons) to get your 10 transmutes and the XP. As long as that remains the case, high powered players will be in normals. Even if they didn't charged ahead and sincerely tried to allow lower levels to participate, the damage is so much higher than what's needed that newer players aren't learning anything.

marshill88

if you go into a random dungeon with random teammates, then you simply get what you get. I think the queue system works great and I don't have high expectations, also given the propensity of some players to boot anyone they don't like. Low expectations when queueing solves all my problems.

Xebov

ThePianist wrote: »

“If you can’t hold 5 iron atronauchs during the fire dragon phase in VSS while wearing two buff sets and not resource/survivability sets, you need to re-evaluate your build, or just do normal trials”- An unknown dps living under a rock, unaware of the amounts of nerfs tanks have gotten.

That sums it up pretty well. I once was asked to join a vSS trial group because the needed a tank and i knew the other tank so i joined in. As preperation we where requested to carry certain buff sets, one was meant to cover up for a healer that didnt have it. From the 8 DDs 5 barely got over the 25k DPS mark so the fight took ages. They diddnt propperly rez or followed commands. We had several tries for the ice dragon alone where i died a couple of times after ~11 mins because i ultimatively ran out of resources. Needless to say that i got blamed by them. After a second trial evening i told them what the issues where and some of the guys where furious because they wouldnt believe that their bad preperation and lack in correct behaviour where responsible, as a result i was "released" from the group. So i basically had players completely unfit for the content that fully expected me to buff them to the limit while tanking the boss for ages untill they could kill it.

Hexi

Not dying to mechanics doesn't make tanking hard, it's the damn baseline.

Agenericname wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

ZOS should fix fake roles. But the issue is not overland content or dungeons not requiring a tank/healer, the issue is players cutting in line because they feel their time is more important then everyone else's. It is selfish behaviour, no matter what they tell themselves. And telling players to expect fake roles, when the dungeonfinder has a clear role-set, is not appropriate. Either do your role, or don't queue. No excuses! (being bad at your role, is not being a fake)

ZOS quickly needs to start understanding, these fake roles are chasing players away from the game. As these new players get to dungeons, and then call it quits due to the horrible experience(s). Enforcing roles is the only way to do this, even if it might hinder builddiversity somewhat.

To get more players to become tanks: Dual spec!

PS: Fake roles do not fill a vacuum, they leave players and groups often with double queue's due to the dungeon failing. The ones abusing fake role instant queue's would abuse it, regardless of the role. They even create more holes, which the dungeonfinder has to fill yet again.
PPS: I have noticed more and more extremely low dps players using the veteran dungeonfinder the last week(s), as they are not taught anything in normal dungeons anymore. Fake tanks actually cause 'fake dps'.

When you queue as a tank, how long do you wait? That's because the ratio of tanks to DDs is so imbalanced. That's the vacuum. If tanks had to wait, or DDs and tank had the same queue time, we would be closer to equilibrium, but we aren't.

I'm mostly immune to fake tanks. And I'm neither justifying nor condoning fake tanking (assuming it's actually a fake), but if they weren't there, would the queue time be longer or shorter for DDs? Longer. They aren't preventing other tanks from queueing, at all. My queue time is still 0. And since tanks are immune to fake tanks, they aren't discouraging other tanks from trying to learn. They're frustrating to DDs and healers, but not to tanks. The other DDs and healers have a much larger impact on tanks wanting to learn that fake tanks do. So if there is a chokepoint with group content and upcoming tanks, it doesn't lie with fake tanks at all.

Until ZOS changes the rewards, there's a strong possibility that new players aren't going to learn in normal dungeons unless they form their own group. The rewards are the same. Running a RND is the most efficient way (in dungeons) to get your 10 transmutes and the XP. As long as that remains the case, high powered players will be in normals. Even if they didn't charged ahead and sincerely tried to allow lower levels to participate, the damage is so much higher than what's needed that newer players aren't learning anything.

I run with the monster set that spawns dwemer spiders that regen stamina of everyone in the circle and faster res time set on Templar to make it super fast. I spam combat prayer and elemental drain on bosses. The only dmg abilities I have in my bar are elemental blockade, luminous shards and purifying ritual. All of which heal/regen/debuff.

People with actual builds and sets don't run vet pugs, for a reason.

Terion_Fyr

to make sure people play with the right roles.

"role buffs" are needed.

DD - get higher dmg buff
Tank: More HP and Deff Buff
Heal: More Heal

And since every DD has a Healing Spell, we wont see any need of dedicated Healer. Only in some DLC Vet Content real Tanks are needed. And even there the Tanks heal and shields the Party most of the time.

Healer are dead because of this gamedesign. "build how you want and what you want" - a spellweaving thief with a sword and a shield.

Iccotak

Terion_Fyr wrote: »

to make sure people play with the right roles.

"role buffs" are needed.

DD - get higher dmg buff
Tank: More HP and Deff Buff
Heal: More Heal

And since every DD has a Healing Spell, we wont see any need of dedicated Healer. Only in some DLC Vet Content real Tanks are needed. And even there the Tanks heal and shields the Party most of the time.

Healer are dead because of this gamedesign. "build how you want and what you want" - a spellweaving thief with a sword and a shield.

all that will do is reward fake tanks and make them more viable lol - that won't solve the problem, it'll make it worse.

Iarao

mark.alexander5neb18_ESO wrote: »

Put fakers on your ignore list everyone. Let the parties available to them dry up

If they want to queue as a tank or a healer they should roll one. It's simple enough to do and they might enjoy the class

Fakers are people who think they're so "special" they shouldn't have to queue like the rest of us

so you can't get queued with someone on your ignore list?

Tsar_Gekkou

Iarao wrote: »

mark.alexander5neb18_ESO wrote: »

Put fakers on your ignore list everyone. Let the parties available to them dry up

If they want to queue as a tank or a healer they should roll one. It's simple enough to do and they might enjoy the class

Fakers are people who think they're so "special" they shouldn't have to queue like the rest of us

so you can't get queued with someone on your ignore list?

You still do. All ignoring someone does is prevent you from seeing messages/chat from them.

deleted221106-002999

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

The whole group finder tool needs to be reworked, with fake roles in mind.
Just give the option to queue for a 4 DD run or a 1-1-2 or a 1-0-3 or what not....

Or simply remove the option to run as a tank without having 5 heavy armor pieces and a taunt ability slotted. Just lock it.

The game tracks so many stuff simultaneously, that little check is easily implemented. Could even do it client side.

Also a record and combat evaluation of a dungeon run would give feedback to the bad dps. Like star ratings or numbers. The game does that as well for arenas and trials. How difficult can it be?

You have the option currently to queue as anything you want - pre-form your group and do so. I often see in zone chat, particularly undaunted pledge zones (Grahtwood etc) "LF n DD/DPS for 4DD/DPS run" and variants on that idea.

Locking gear/skills is terribly and non-constructively prohibitive particularly for tanks who may want or need to change their gear/skills depending on specific, usually dlc, boss mechanics. Also, healers may want to switch to more dps orientated gear/skills if a strong healing build is not required. Generally, quite a few players will change gear and skills in some dungeon runs depending on the dungeon and the group dynamics.

Star ratings etc would be abused - that's a really bad idea.

Bears repeating: most of the 'problems' players have with the random group finder is not accepting the reality that it's random. If players don't like random groups they probably shouldn't use the tool or they should leverage its functionality to suit their own preferences by pre-forming their groups. Obviously if you get a fake in your group you can vote-kick or, if that fails, quit and re-queue later.

The random group finder works exactly to do that (bugs aside): put a random group of players into a random dungeon.

Avalon

Terion_Fyr wrote: »

to make sure people play with the right roles.

"role buffs" are needed.

DD - get higher dmg buff
Tank: More HP and Deff Buff
Heal: More Heal

And since every DD has a Healing Spell, we wont see any need of dedicated Healer. Only in some DLC Vet Content real Tanks are needed. And even there the Tanks heal and shields the Party most of the time.

Healer are dead because of this gamedesign. "build how you want and what you want" - a spellweaving thief with a sword and a shield.

I think there's some promise to this approach, actually. Balance out all of the skills and abilities so that there are no 'tank lines' or 'healer lines' anymore. They are just different skills with different effects. It would allow devs to put a little bit of healing in whatever trees they felt like putting them in, same with abilities that would normally be for tanks. Actually, it would be a LOT more like how the game started!

Remember back at the start, how every class had a pretty mixed set of abilities and buffs, etc? No lines were more or less geared towards a specific role? It was up to US to figure out our builds and run with it? Not like today, where if you are a healer warden, you just grab a resto staff, use your green tree, and you're pretty much set. You know, where every healer warden is basically just a carbon copy of the other healer wardens, maybe an ability different, or different sets, but just about exactly the same? =/

Go back to the start, and instead of doing what they did, make the "queuing" function determine your 'BUFF/DEBUFF' for that run, since you cannot change it once you're in the dungeon.

• DPS gets a buff to damage, penetration, duration of negative effects put on enemies; but debuff to resistances, maybe even health.
• Healers get a buff to heals, durations of buffs, slight buff to health; debuff to DPS, durations of negative effects put on enemies.
• Tanks get a buff to resistances, health, and self-healing (but not as much as the buff to ALL heals the healer gets), every bit of damage you do has a virtual damage 10x higher (not actual damage, but the enemies think you did that much); debuff to DPS, durations of all negative effects put on enemies.

Basically, just destroy the hopes of being whatever roles you are NOT, while giving out buffs to the role-specific activities you SHOULD be performing. If a DPS wanted to queue up as a tank, go for it. You'll be able to be a decently beefy, a bit tanky, guy that cannot help but perform the role at least half-a$$edly. Healers could still be somewhat fake, but by crippling their DPS, only actual healers would probably queue up as a healer.

Just an idea.

Avalon

Tsar_Gekkou wrote: »

Iarao wrote: »

mark.alexander5neb18_ESO wrote: »

Put fakers on your ignore list everyone. Let the parties available to them dry up

If they want to queue as a tank or a healer they should roll one. It's simple enough to do and they might enjoy the class

Fakers are people who think they're so "special" they shouldn't have to queue like the rest of us

so you can't get queued with someone on your ignore list?

You still do. All ignoring someone does is prevent you from seeing messages/chat from them.

Ok, but what if you block them via xbox dash, not just ignore them in game? That is supposed to remove them from every potential pairing up, to the extent that you shouldn't even be able to be in the same overland instance with them incidentally or accidentally (supposedly).

Iccotak

Avalon wrote: »

Terion_Fyr wrote: »

to make sure people play with the right roles.

"role buffs" are needed.

DD - get higher dmg buff
Tank: More HP and Deff Buff
Heal: More Heal

And since every DD has a Healing Spell, we wont see any need of dedicated Healer. Only in some DLC Vet Content real Tanks are needed. And even there the Tanks heal and shields the Party most of the time.

Healer are dead because of this gamedesign. "build how you want and what you want" - a spellweaving thief with a sword and a shield.

I think there's some promise to this approach, actually. Balance out all of the skills and abilities so that there are no 'tank lines' or 'healer lines' anymore. They are just different skills with different effects. It would allow devs to put a little bit of healing in whatever trees they felt like putting them in, same with abilities that would normally be for tanks. Actually, it would be a LOT more like how the game started!

Remember back at the start, how every class had a pretty mixed set of abilities and buffs, etc? No lines were more or less geared towards a specific role? It was up to US to figure out our builds and run with it? Not like today, where if you are a healer warden, you just grab a resto staff, use your green tree, and you're pretty much set. You know, where every healer warden is basically just a carbon copy of the other healer wardens, maybe an ability different, or different sets, but just about exactly the same? =/

Go back to the start, and instead of doing what they did, make the "queuing" function determine your 'BUFF/DEBUFF' for that run, since you cannot change it once you're in the dungeon.

• DPS gets a buff to damage, penetration, duration of negative effects put on enemies; but debuff to resistances, maybe even health.
• Healers get a buff to heals, durations of buffs, slight buff to health; debuff to DPS, durations of negative effects put on enemies.
• Tanks get a buff to resistances, health, and self-healing (but not as much as the buff to ALL heals the healer gets), every bit of damage you do has a virtual damage 10x higher (not actual damage, but the enemies think you did that much); debuff to DPS, durations of all negative effects put on enemies.

Basically, just destroy the hopes of being whatever roles you are NOT, while giving out buffs to the role-specific activities you SHOULD be performing. If a DPS wanted to queue up as a tank, go for it. You'll be able to be a decently beefy, a bit tanky, guy that cannot help but perform the role at least half-a$$edly. Healers could still be somewhat fake, but by crippling their DPS, only actual healers would probably queue up as a healer.

Just an idea.

everything about this is bad

Now when players do builds they also have to take into account the automatic Debuffs they have when entering group content? Ridiculous. All this does is make it harder on the support roles and everyone else to do their part. Also think of what that does to new players or early level characters

Stop proposing punishments to player - good lord this is not necessary.

EDIT: Also part of a Tanks job is to debuff enemies as well as buff allies - it makes no sense to reduce their abilities to debuff enemies

People don't play Tanks or Healers in Random Queue or much at all because they are not enticing, viable in the rest of the content, or fun to play. You want more people playing "Real Tanks & Healers"? Then make playing one appealing...

Make Tanks & Healers fun and people will play them

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Terion_Fyr

@Avalon

Damn right!

Final Fantasy did a great Job when it comes to Dungeon Experience. Its always a slap in my face comming from ff14.

I want to get recognozed as a healer. i hate seeing Tanks and DD running arround with a healer staff and spamming heals in every rota.

Avalon

Iccotak wrote: »

Now when players do builds they also have to take into account the automatic Debuffs they have when entering group content? Ridiculous.

So, are you implying that ESO players are less capable than, say, DCUO players? That's the type of mechanic they have, just a bit modified to fit ESO. They get a DPS form for every 'power type' (class) and a role-specific form (like Tank for the Ice class), and can flip back and forth between the two outside of combats and such. It is to allow players to be DPS in normal solo content (you know, kind of like you allude to with your other comments), yet allow them to be a specific role in the not-solo portions of the game (you know, kind of like what we are talking about- we need REAL tanks and healers in the queues).

And, this is all without having to really change up powers/skills too much, usually... sure, some are better than others, but, like I said, an actual tank will just be a better tank with the tank buffs/debuffs... a DPS trying to cheat the system will be a crappy DPS, and an ok tank - thus NOT screwing the unsuspecting group members they are FOISTING themselves upon.

You say, "Stop proposing punishments to player(s)", and I agree. We should not be punishing more players than are necessary, and since the DPS players who cannot seem to grasp the simple concepts of "Tanks queue as Tanks, Healers as Healers, and if you ARE NOT EITHER, you are a DPS" (not rocket science, right?) and by them refusing to do so, they screw several groups all the time?

That means you are saying, "Don't punish the DPS players! Keep letting everyone else be punished!". I think you mean well, but, honestly, we're at a point in this situation where the DPS players who are exploiting and cheating that system NEED to have their hands popped HARD to make them understand that it isn't ok.

Btw, note what I said about DCUO above? Couple that with what I said about removing and rebalancing the skills/abilities so there aren't any 'specifically tank' or 'specifically healer' abilities. Just abilities that have different ways of doing things. The only way THAT fails is lack of creativity and imagination on the part of the devs (so not holding my breath here). Everyone is a DPS in overland content at that point!

Only when they go into dungeons do they throw on role-specific gear, maybe change out one or two abilities (not need to completely respec), and choose a different role, and they are good to go. It would allow people who WANT to tank to be DPS in normal content, allow healers to be DPS in normal content... but, become their desired roles in the content where those roles are actually needed.

So... I don't see your points at all. And, if you still disagree, based on your comments above, I have to think you believe players on other games are just more capable. That the devs are, too. Because, it works brilliantly in other games... should work, here, as well.

Iccotak

what I am saying is that adding dubuffs on top of debuffs that will happen in combat is irritating

What I am saying is that players will change their builds to make up for that dubuff, instead of focusing on damage output

You are punishing Tanks & Healers because they would have to worry more about DPS characters who would be even more vulnerable than they already are. (I play a tank btw - I got enough on my plate and I don't need more)

If you want to punish Fake Tanks then implement an extended ban timer when they are kicked from the group.

If you want more "Real Tanks" and "Real Healers" then make them appealing to play - the reason their is such a disproportion in queue times is because the ratio of DPS to Support is 10-1. Next to Nobody actually plays support roles in dungeons and random queue.

my problem with your idea is that it punishes everyone else who's playing by the rules and would create new meta around these "De-Buffs"

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edit:

Btw, note what I said about DCUO above? Couple that with what I said about removing and rebalancing the skills/abilities so there aren't any 'specifically tank' or 'specifically healer' abilities. Just abilities that have different ways of doing things. The only way THAT fails is lack of creativity and imagination on the part of the devs (so not holding my breath here). Everyone is a DPS in overland content at that point!

that level of change would be such an extensive rework and overhaul that I don't think is possible with the current classes. At that point you might as well ask for a new game

Soraka

I agree with multispec

Iarao

KalyanLazair wrote: »

Obviously if you get a fake in your group you can vote-kick or, if that fails, quit and re-queue

you can't always kick. it IS a vote.