**Edit, I just got around to checking the replies on this and holy crap! This thread should be used as a case study for cherry-picking and selective memory. I can't believe, I refuse to believe that saying "a tank should have to have a taunt or a healer should have to have the ability to heal others on their bar before being able to queue for those roles" is a controversial statement. I refuse to believe it, period. I feel like I am being trolled after reading some of these replies. Let me clear a few things up for those you who are lets say, slightly challenged in the area of reading comprehension.
I am only talking about Vet LFG Dungeons. Normal LFG is beyond easy even for brand new players.
What I mean by "fake tank or fake healer" is a dps that queues for the tank or healer role and doesn't have any intention or ability to tank or heal for the group, just so they can have a fast queue time. I can work with/around a bad tank, healer or dps.
"Basic criteria", Zenimax would have to decide on that, at a bare minimum a taunt for tanks and the ability to heal other for healers before being able to queue for those roles. I am not suggesting they get to decide how you play/build your character.
When I say "lock the gear/skills/talents in place" until the dungeon is over, It's only what gear/skills/talents is needed for the role (decided by Zenimax) and it's so that they are not immediately swapped out when the queue pops. Does that mean they will use them? Nope, It just means they would be actively avoiding using them making kicking easier.
No, I am not just calling out fake tanks or fake healers... There are fake dps too, but the kick system works for those since dps are a dime a dozen, even good dps. The dps slot is filled almost instantly after making a kick, so there is no problem there.**
Every other MMO that has a queue system for dungeons/raids has a way to deal with this. It's to the point now where almost half of the lfg/pugs I do has a fake tank or healer in it, and a lot of the times it's just straight up 4 dps (no taunts and zero heals). I can accept they are bad tanks and healers, no problem. What I can't or won't accept is a dps queuing as a tank or healer just because they somehow think that their time is more valuable and don't want to wait in the queue that dps deal with right now. Vote to kick is not the answer because a fast kick and replacement almost never happens and people would rather just die a whole bunch instead of having to kick/replace/wait for the role to be filled properly. There is no risk or downside to the person queuing into the wrong role other than a slight chance of getting kicked, but even then they can just log onto another character, re-queue (in the wrong role) and end up right back in the group they were just kicked from further wasting everyone's time... (Why is the kicked timer not account wide, [snip]?)
Now before a Captain Obvious stats the obvious...
(Yes, I know I can form my own groups and do.)
(Yes, I do tank and heal and not just dps in pugs.)
(Yes, I know I can leave the group at any time.)
(Yes, I know you can and I have successfully ran 3 and even 4 dps in vet dungeons.)
These are all band aid solutions to a broken system that only rewards the people who are breaking it.
So what can be done to fix the problem? I don't know, I'm not a developer and don't know what is and isn't technically possible with the HeroEngine. If possible, the queue system for LFG needs to have a criteria to look for before allowing someone to queue into a certain role.
Does the person have a taunt on their bar? Check
Does the person have sufficient health to tank the content that was queued for? Check
Does the person have the appropriate armor/armor buffs/shields/and cp talents? Check
If all checks pass, lock the gear/skills/talents in place required for the content and add them to the queue.
A system like this would allow extra rewards for filling and completing certain roles that are badly needed need in the queue like tank, thus speeding up everyone queue.
I know there are a lot of different play-styles and builds out there but there needs to be a bare minimum criteria in place to allow someone to queue for certain roles, otherwise little Timmy Turbo is just going to keep abusing the queue and wasting everyone's time. The only other options are to allow reporting and banning of people abusing the queue (first report a warning, second report 24 hour ban), but this would likely be abused it's self. The other option? Just leave it as it is and dumb down all lfg/pug content to allow for a random 4 dps to clear. What I can say for sure is that the LFG experience has progressively gotten worse over the past couple of years and it needs fixed right now.
They're not going to do anything about it, thousands of people have complained here. They added companions instead. The best any player can do is drop group on these people, I just did it 10 minutes ago. It's inexcusable for people to cut the line without the right toon while the other 2 DDs do it the right way and all of those tanks out there do it the right way.
The saddest part of all of this is that WoW added AI to block it years ago and they're dinosaurs at this point.
insignismemoria wrote: »They could just add a "float" role, or even a float queue where there are no assigned roles and it's come as you are. Policing how other people game is not what TES is about, and for all the flawed attempts at re-balancing that don't seem to favor this mindset, ZOS publicly states they want to keep the philosophy of "play your way". Locking any skill or class or race into a role is contradictory to this.
With a "float" role, you could put yourself in as a floater, or if you want to be a DPS but don't mind having anyone fill any role, you could toggle an option that says "accept float for any role/the following roles".
This seems like a blindingly obvious solution that wouldn't actually be that difficult to implement. The people who don't care and just want a short queue will have their way of doing things, without actually taking anything away from the set-role folks. In fact, it might mean that there will be more healers and tanks for the DPS who want dedicated/specialized builds filling those roles.
Personally, though, I think if you're not willing to specialize and fill the role, it's silly to complain when no one else wants to either.
alberichtano wrote: »the best way to destroy this plague is simple
create spirit system in dungeon like battle spirit in pvp
Tank spirit: increase all defensive buff (you give or have) duration +40 % , armor increased by 10 k , max health +5 K but reduce all damage done by 90 %
DD spirit: increase damage done by 50 % ,increase offensive buff duration (you give or have) by 40 %, reduce all healing/shield done by 90 %
Healer: increase power of healing by 50 %, increase all duration of buff who increase regen by 40 %, reduce all damage done by 90 %
this simple system make fake tanking or healing more punishing for dd because they gonna have their damage nerfed into oblivion and give them no choice of playing the role they tagged.
I wouldn't give the DDs that bonus though, as it actually increases the lust to play DD.
The issue is that tanks are just not needed in most instances (raids, sometimes even just vet raids, aside). Self-heals, good mitigation and getting the boss down fast is better than having a no-good tank or healer along.
Sure. I'd be for having some basic checks on tank/healer queues. But only if DPS had to go through a lowest common denominator filter, too.
alberichtano wrote: »the best way to destroy this plague is simple
create spirit system in dungeon like battle spirit in pvp
Tank spirit: increase all defensive buff (you give or have) duration +40 % , armor increased by 10 k , max health +5 K but reduce all damage done by 90 %
DD spirit: increase damage done by 50 % ,increase offensive buff duration (you give or have) by 40 %, reduce all healing/shield done by 90 %
Healer: increase power of healing by 50 %, increase all duration of buff who increase regen by 40 %, reduce all damage done by 90 %
this simple system make fake tanking or healing more punishing for dd because they gonna have their damage nerfed into oblivion and give them no choice of playing the role they tagged.
I wouldn't give the DDs that bonus though, as it actually increases the lust to play DD.
The issue is that tanks are just not needed in most instances (raids, sometimes even just vet raids, aside). Self-heals, good mitigation and getting the boss down fast is better than having a no-good tank or healer along.
**Edit, I just got around to checking the replies on this and holy crap! This thread should be used as a case study for cherry-picking and selective memory. I can't believe, I refuse to believe that saying "a tank should have to have a taunt or a healer should have to have the ability to heal others on their bar before being able to queue for those roles" is a controversial statement. I refuse to believe it, period. I feel like I am being trolled after reading some of these replies. Let me clear a few things up for those you who are lets say, slightly challenged in the area of reading comprehension.
I am only talking about Vet LFG Dungeons. Normal LFG is beyond easy even for brand new players.
What I mean by "fake tank or fake healer" is a dps that queues for the tank or healer role and doesn't have any intention or ability to tank or heal for the group, just so they can have a fast queue time. I can work with/around a bad tank, healer or dps.
"Basic criteria", Zenimax would have to decide on that, at a bare minimum a taunt for tanks and the ability to heal other for healers before being able to queue for those roles. I am not suggesting they get to decide how you play/build your character.
When I say "lock the gear/skills/talents in place" until the dungeon is over, It's only what gear/skills/talents is needed for the role (decided by Zenimax) and it's so that they are not immediately swapped out when the queue pops. Does that mean they will use them? Nope, It just means they would be actively avoiding using them making kicking easier.
No, I am not just calling out fake tanks or fake healers... There are fake dps too, but the kick system works for those since dps are a dime a dozen, even good dps. The dps slot is filled almost instantly after making a kick, so there is no problem there.**
Every other MMO that has a queue system for dungeons/raids has a way to deal with this. It's to the point now where almost half of the lfg/pugs I do has a fake tank or healer in it, and a lot of the times it's just straight up 4 dps (no taunts and zero heals). I can accept they are bad tanks and healers, no problem. What I can't or won't accept is a dps queuing as a tank or healer just because they somehow think that their time is more valuable and don't want to wait in the queue that dps deal with right now. Vote to kick is not the answer because a fast kick and replacement almost never happens and people would rather just die a whole bunch instead of having to kick/replace/wait for the role to be filled properly. There is no risk or downside to the person queuing into the wrong role other than a slight chance of getting kicked, but even then they can just log onto another character, re-queue (in the wrong role) and end up right back in the group they were just kicked from further wasting everyone's time... (Why is the kicked timer not account wide, [snip]?)
Now before a Captain Obvious stats the obvious...
(Yes, I know I can form my own groups and do.)
(Yes, I do tank and heal and not just dps in pugs.)
(Yes, I know I can leave the group at any time.)
(Yes, I know you can and I have successfully ran 3 and even 4 dps in vet dungeons.)
These are all band aid solutions to a broken system that only rewards the people who are breaking it.
So what can be done to fix the problem? I don't know, I'm not a developer and don't know what is and isn't technically possible with the HeroEngine. If possible, the queue system for LFG needs to have a criteria to look for before allowing someone to queue into a certain role.
Does the person have a taunt on their bar? Check
Does the person have sufficient health to tank the content that was queued for? Check
Does the person have the appropriate armor/armor buffs/shields/and cp talents? Check
If all checks pass, lock the gear/skills/talents in place required for the content and add them to the queue.
A system like this would allow extra rewards for filling and completing certain roles that are badly needed need in the queue like tank, thus speeding up everyone queue.
I know there are a lot of different play-styles and builds out there but there needs to be a bare minimum criteria in place to allow someone to queue for certain roles, otherwise little Timmy Turbo is just going to keep abusing the queue and wasting everyone's time. The only other options are to allow reporting and banning of people abusing the queue (first report a warning, second report 24 hour ban), but this would likely be abused it's self. The other option? Just leave it as it is and dumb down all lfg/pug content to allow for a random 4 dps to clear. What I can say for sure is that the LFG experience has progressively gotten worse over the past couple of years and it needs fixed right now.
I want to do my daily dungeon finder. Not sit in a queue for ridiculous amounts of time. We queue as tanks or healers because its alot quicker. Id even argue there is a bug with the Damage Group Role.
Terion_Fyr wrote: »to make sure people play with the right roles.
"role buffs" are needed.
DD - get higher dmg buff
Tank: More HP and Deff Buff
Heal: More Heal
And since every DD has a Healing Spell, we wont see any need of dedicated Healer. Only in some DLC Vet Content real Tanks are needed. And even there the Tanks heal and shields the Party most of the time.
Healer are dead because of this gamedesign. "build how you want and what you want" - a spellweaving thief with a sword and a shield.
I think there's some promise to this approach, actually. Balance out all of the skills and abilities so that there are no 'tank lines' or 'healer lines' anymore. They are just different skills with different effects. It would allow devs to put a little bit of healing in whatever trees they felt like putting them in, same with abilities that would normally be for tanks. Actually, it would be a LOT more like how the game started!
Remember back at the start, how every class had a pretty mixed set of abilities and buffs, etc? No lines were more or less geared towards a specific role? It was up to US to figure out our builds and run with it? Not like today, where if you are a healer warden, you just grab a resto staff, use your green tree, and you're pretty much set. You know, where every healer warden is basically just a carbon copy of the other healer wardens, maybe an ability different, or different sets, but just about exactly the same? =/
Go back to the start, and instead of doing what they did, make the "queuing" function determine your 'BUFF/DEBUFF' for that run, since you cannot change it once you're in the dungeon.
- DPS gets a buff to damage, penetration, duration of negative effects put on enemies; but debuff to resistances, maybe even health.
- Healers get a buff to heals, durations of buffs, slight buff to health; debuff to DPS, durations of negative effects put on enemies.
- Tanks get a buff to resistances, health, and self-healing (but not as much as the buff to ALL heals the healer gets), every bit of damage you do has a virtual damage 10x higher (not actual damage, but the enemies think you did that much); debuff to DPS, durations of all negative effects put on enemies.
Basically, just destroy the hopes of being whatever roles you are NOT, while giving out buffs to the role-specific activities you SHOULD be performing. If a DPS wanted to queue up as a tank, go for it. You'll be able to be a decently beefy, a bit tanky, guy that cannot help but perform the role at least half-a$$edly. Healers could still be somewhat fake, but by crippling their DPS, only actual healers would probably queue up as a healer.
Just an idea.
everything about this is bad
Now when players do builds they also have to take into account the automatic Debuffs they have when entering group content? Ridiculous. All this does is make it harder on the support roles and everyone else to do their part. Also think of what that does to new players or early level characters
Stop proposing punishments to player - good lord this is not necessary.
EDIT: Also part of a Tanks job is to debuff enemies as well as buff allies - it makes no sense to reduce their abilities to debuff enemies
People don't play Tanks or Healers in Random Queue or much at all because they are not enticing, viable in the rest of the content, or fun to play. You want more people playing "Real Tanks & Healers"? Then make playing one appealing...
Make Tanks & Healers fun and people will play them
Terion_Fyr wrote: »to make sure people play with the right roles.
"role buffs" are needed.
DD - get higher dmg buff
Tank: More HP and Deff Buff
Heal: More Heal
And since every DD has a Healing Spell, we wont see any need of dedicated Healer. Only in some DLC Vet Content real Tanks are needed. And even there the Tanks heal and shields the Party most of the time.
Healer are dead because of this gamedesign. "build how you want and what you want" - a spellweaving thief with a sword and a shield.
I think there's some promise to this approach, actually. Balance out all of the skills and abilities so that there are no 'tank lines' or 'healer lines' anymore. They are just different skills with different effects. It would allow devs to put a little bit of healing in whatever trees they felt like putting them in, same with abilities that would normally be for tanks. Actually, it would be a LOT more like how the game started!
Remember back at the start, how every class had a pretty mixed set of abilities and buffs, etc? No lines were more or less geared towards a specific role? It was up to US to figure out our builds and run with it? Not like today, where if you are a healer warden, you just grab a resto staff, use your green tree, and you're pretty much set. You know, where every healer warden is basically just a carbon copy of the other healer wardens, maybe an ability different, or different sets, but just about exactly the same? =/
Go back to the start, and instead of doing what they did, make the "queuing" function determine your 'BUFF/DEBUFF' for that run, since you cannot change it once you're in the dungeon.
- DPS gets a buff to damage, penetration, duration of negative effects put on enemies; but debuff to resistances, maybe even health.
- Healers get a buff to heals, durations of buffs, slight buff to health; debuff to DPS, durations of negative effects put on enemies.
- Tanks get a buff to resistances, health, and self-healing (but not as much as the buff to ALL heals the healer gets), every bit of damage you do has a virtual damage 10x higher (not actual damage, but the enemies think you did that much); debuff to DPS, durations of all negative effects put on enemies.
Basically, just destroy the hopes of being whatever roles you are NOT, while giving out buffs to the role-specific activities you SHOULD be performing. If a DPS wanted to queue up as a tank, go for it. You'll be able to be a decently beefy, a bit tanky, guy that cannot help but perform the role at least half-a$$edly. Healers could still be somewhat fake, but by crippling their DPS, only actual healers would probably queue up as a healer.
Just an idea.
everything about this is bad
Now when players do builds they also have to take into account the automatic Debuffs they have when entering group content? Ridiculous. All this does is make it harder on the support roles and everyone else to do their part. Also think of what that does to new players or early level characters
Stop proposing punishments to player - good lord this is not necessary.
EDIT: Also part of a Tanks job is to debuff enemies as well as buff allies - it makes no sense to reduce their abilities to debuff enemies
People don't play Tanks or Healers in Random Queue or much at all because they are not enticing, viable in the rest of the content, or fun to play. You want more people playing "Real Tanks & Healers"? Then make playing one appealing...
Make Tanks & Healers fun and people will play them
I agree. Especially that it does not make sense to weaken the tank's ability to debuff the targets. Heck, part of the main taunt from S&B debuffs the target to increase the damage the group does. I does not make sense to make that last only have the time of the taunt forcing tanks to taunt well before the taunt ends.
I have seen a few of these threads in the ~five months I have been playing ESO and have not seen only one effective idea. Form up with guildmates.
To be frank: The worst thing about being a tank isn't even the fact that actually trying to win fights is much slower in overland/solo play (although it is) - it's other players.