Something has to be done about the fake tank/healer plague, enough is enough.

Dixa · July 2021

Wolfpaw wrote: »

If ZOS made a ESO version of GW2 LFG system all these issues would end. A player driven lfg system is the best option.

GW2 doesn't use the holy trinity, ESO does.

Elsonso · July 2021

Dixa wrote: »

Wolfpaw wrote: »

If ZOS made a ESO version of GW2 LFG system all these issues would end. A player driven lfg system is the best option.

GW2 doesn't use the holy trinity, ESO does.

I never understood this. They pooh-poohed the MMO, decided that ESO was an MMORPG, but they picked up what is arguably among the worst features of an MMORPG.

ajkb78 · July 2021

Warstory wrote: »

**Edit, I just got around to checking the replies on this and holy crap! This thread should be used as a case study for cherry-picking and selective memory. I can't believe, I refuse to believe that saying "a tank should have to have a taunt or a healer should have to have the ability to heal others on their bar before being able to queue for those roles" is a controversial statement. I refuse to believe it, period. I feel like I am being trolled after reading some of these replies. Let me clear a few things up for those you who are lets say, slightly challenged in the area of reading comprehension.

I am only talking about Vet LFG Dungeons. Normal LFG is beyond easy even for brand new players.

What I mean by "fake tank or fake healer" is a dps that queues for the tank or healer role and doesn't have any intention or ability to tank or heal for the group, just so they can have a fast queue time. I can work with/around a bad tank, healer or dps.

"Basic criteria", Zenimax would have to decide on that, at a bare minimum a taunt for tanks and the ability to heal other for healers before being able to queue for those roles. I am not suggesting they get to decide how you play/build your character.

When I say "lock the gear/skills/talents in place" until the dungeon is over, It's only what gear/skills/talents is needed for the role (decided by Zenimax) and it's so that they are not immediately swapped out when the queue pops. Does that mean they will use them? Nope, It just means they would be actively avoiding using them making kicking easier.

No, I am not just calling out fake tanks or fake healers... There are fake dps too, but the kick system works for those since dps are a dime a dozen, even good dps. The dps slot is filled almost instantly after making a kick, so there is no problem there.**

Every other MMO that has a queue system for dungeons/raids has a way to deal with this. It's to the point now where almost half of the lfg/pugs I do has a fake tank or healer in it, and a lot of the times it's just straight up 4 dps (no taunts and zero heals). I can accept they are bad tanks and healers, no problem. What I can't or won't accept is a dps queuing as a tank or healer just because they somehow think that their time is more valuable and don't want to wait in the queue that dps deal with right now. Vote to kick is not the answer because a fast kick and replacement almost never happens and people would rather just die a whole bunch instead of having to kick/replace/wait for the role to be filled properly. There is no risk or downside to the person queuing into the wrong role other than a slight chance of getting kicked, but even then they can just log onto another character, re-queue (in the wrong role) and end up right back in the group they were just kicked from further wasting everyone's time... (Why is the kicked timer not account wide, [snip]?)

Now before a Captain Obvious stats the obvious...
(Yes, I know I can form my own groups and do.)
(Yes, I do tank and heal and not just dps in pugs.)
(Yes, I know I can leave the group at any time.)
(Yes, I know you can and I have successfully ran 3 and even 4 dps in vet dungeons.)
These are all band aid solutions to a broken system that only rewards the people who are breaking it.

So what can be done to fix the problem? I don't know, I'm not a developer and don't know what is and isn't technically possible with the HeroEngine. If possible, the queue system for LFG needs to have a criteria to look for before allowing someone to queue into a certain role.
Does the person have a taunt on their bar? Check
Does the person have sufficient health to tank the content that was queued for? Check
Does the person have the appropriate armor/armor buffs/shields/and cp talents? Check
If all checks pass, lock the gear/skills/talents in place required for the content and add them to the queue.
A system like this would allow extra rewards for filling and completing certain roles that are badly needed need in the queue like tank, thus speeding up everyone queue.

I know there are a lot of different play-styles and builds out there but there needs to be a bare minimum criteria in place to allow someone to queue for certain roles, otherwise little Timmy Turbo is just going to keep abusing the queue and wasting everyone's time. The only other options are to allow reporting and banning of people abusing the queue (first report a warning, second report 24 hour ban), but this would likely be abused it's self. The other option? Just leave it as it is and dumb down all lfg/pug content to allow for a random 4 dps to clear. What I can say for sure is that the LFG experience has progressively gotten worse over the past couple of years and it needs fixed right now.

[snip] By your reasoning a full DPS stamplar would pass the healer check because repentance provides a group heal, despite it generally being used after a bunch of things are dead for sustain rather than as a mid fight healing tool. And you would also prevent tanks switching skills between bosses / trash, which is a useful thing to be able to do. It would also do nothing to force people to actually use the skills they have slotted. Under your system I could throw a skill point into inner fire, slot it on my back bar instead of a dot, queue as a fake tank in an almost full DPS setup just with a wasted skill slot, and never use the taunt.

You just have to accept the queue for what it is. If you want a quick random, it'll get you that. If you actually want a quality group, use guildmates.

[edited to remove insulting comments & re-quoting]

BXR_Lonestar · July 2021

Or maybe don't que for hard dungeons. Problem solved.

There is VERY few normal dungeons that require a tank, so if your running random normals, a fake tank or fake healer actually helps you burn the dungeon faster in most cases.

IMO, the fake role issue is only a problem in Vet content, and that problem is easily solved by going in with pre-made groups. Otherwise, your going to get a mixed bag of nuts if you que and go with random players because the player base is a mixed bag of nuts - in terms of game mechanics comprehension, skill level, gear level, role, etc.

That is just the reality of matchmaking in this game. There's no ability to determine who is ACTUALLY suited for a specific role, skill level, etc.

waterfairy · July 2021

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Or maybe don't que for hard dungeons. Problem solved.

There is VERY few normal dungeons that require a tank, so if your running random normals, a fake tank or fake healer actually helps you burn the dungeon faster in most cases.

IMO, the fake role issue is only a problem in Vet content, and that problem is easily solved by going in with pre-made groups. Otherwise, your going to get a mixed bag of nuts if you que and go with random players because the player base is a mixed bag of nuts - in terms of game mechanics comprehension, skill level, gear level, role, etc.

That is just the reality of matchmaking in this game. There's no ability to determine who is ACTUALLY suited for a specific role, skill level, etc.

personally it's more about principal then the need for a real tank/healer. As a dps who waits on the long que for my role I hate when I see another dps cheat the que as a tank. My dps is just as good if not better then theirs so what gives them the right to be a special snowflake and cheat the system?

svendf · July 2021

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Or maybe don't que for hard dungeons. Problem solved.

There is VERY few normal dungeons that require a tank, so if your running random normals, a fake tank or fake healer actually helps you burn the dungeon faster in most cases.

IMO, the fake role issue is only a problem in Vet content, and that problem is easily solved by going in with pre-made groups. Otherwise, your going to get a mixed bag of nuts if you que and go with random players because the player base is a mixed bag of nuts - in terms of game mechanics comprehension, skill level, gear level, role, etc.

That is just the reality of matchmaking in this game. There's no ability to determine who is ACTUALLY suited for a specific role, skill level, etc.

Do you only run vet dungeons ? Or do you combine vet and norm dungeons ? Meaning do you also run norm dungeons ? Including DLC.

Thx

alberichtano · July 2021

Agenericname wrote: »

Warstory wrote: »

Every other MMO that has a queue system for dungeons/raids has a way to deal with this. It's to the point now where almost half of the lfg/pugs I do has a fake tank or healer in it, and a lot of the times it's just straight up 4 dps (no taunts and zero heals). I can accept they are bad tanks and healers, no problem. What I can't or won't accept is a dps queuing as a tank or healer just because they somehow think that their time is more valuable and don't want to wait in the queue that dps deal with right now. Vote to kick is not the answer because a fast kick and replacement almost never happens and people would rather just die a whole bunch instead of having to kick/replace/wait for the role to be filled properly. There is no risk or downside to the person queuing into the wrong role other than a slight chance of getting kicked, but even then they can just log onto another character, re-queue (in the wrong role) and end up right back in the group they were just kicked from further wasting the everyone's time... (Why is the kicked timer not account wide, [snip]?)

Now before a Captain Obvious stats the obvious...
(Yes, I know I can form my own groups and do.)
(Yes, I do tank and heal and not just dps in pugs.)
(Yes, I know I can leave the group at any time.)
(Yes, I know you can and I have successfully ran 3 and even 4 dps in vet dungeons.)
These are all band aid solutions to a broken system that only rewards the people who are breaking it.

So what can be done to fix the problem? I don't know, I'm not a developer and don't know what is and isn't technically possible with the HeroEngine. If possible, the queue system for LFG needs to have a criteria to look for before allowing someone to queue into a certain role.
Does the person have a taunt on their bar? Check
Does the person have sufficient health to tank the content that was queued for? Check
Does the person have the appropriate armor/armor buffs/shields/and cp talents? Check
If all checks pass, lock the gear/skills/talents in place required for the content and add them to the queue.
A system like this would allow extra rewards for filling and completing certain roles that are badly needed need in the queue like tank, thus speeding up everyone queue.

I know there are a lot of different play-styles and builds out there but there needs to be a bare minimum criteria in place to allow someone to queue for certain roles, otherwise little Timmy Turbo is just going to keep abusing the queue and wasting everyone's time. The only other options are to allow reporting and banning of people abusing the queue (first report a warning, second report 24 hour ban), but this would likely be abused it's self. The other option? Just leave it as it is and dumb down all lfg/pug content to allow for a random 4 dps to clear. What I can say for sure is that the LFG experience has progressively gotten worse over the past couple of years and it needs fixed right now.

There is no timer for someone who has been kicked.

If you want more tanks in queue, punishing them by locking their skills and gear isnt really going to entice them. Fake tanks arent displacing real tanks. They fill a vacuum.

If youre going to set limits and restrictions on what my tank can wear and their abilities, wouldnt it also be fair to set a minimum on damage as well?

Rnd are already dumbed down to the point that 4 dds can complete them. Its why this conversation happens.

"Fake tanks arent displacing real tanks. They fill a vacuum."

No they are not. They are pretending to get faster into the random dungeon, because DDs abound.

The basic problem is that ESO is a damage-is-king kinda game, where healers and tanks are pretty much ignored, except for raids. More love and awesomness to tanks and healers, and it will change, methinks.

[edited to remove quote]

alberichtano · July 2021

Goregrinder wrote: »

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

Real tanks and healers need more incentive to join the que. Give PVE a battle spirit that goes the opposite direction of pvp, where DPS goes up X% when health and mitigation meet some basic requirements. Healers can already dish out a lot of DPS, why can't tanks?

I wouldn't increase their reward, then you would have even more fakes hopping into the position.

Something like successfully taunting an enemy puts a stack of a buff that increases groups damage by 1% or something. Can stack up to 10, and each stack lasts 10 seconds or something. Things like that might work, buffs that work off what a player is actually doing in a dungeon. If they are playing like a tank, then they get buffs for themselves or group which makes running the dungeon faster and easier. If they are a fake tank, it takes longer.

Alternatively it could be that a debuff gets applied unless one player constantly taunts every 10 seconds or something. So it would then be up to the tank to keep that debuff off themselves and their group, and could be one incentive to get people to be more honest about their role.

But really idk what the best solution would be with a system that doen't lock down what you can queue for based on class or specialization.

Perhaps such a simple thing as limiting much of the res-debuffs to tank abilities, sword and shield and taunts, basically. Now the everyone and his uncle can do that, and have good defense as well, tanks are all but meaningless in everything but raids.

alberichtano · July 2021

DarcyMardin wrote: »

Most of my characters are either real healers or real tanks, but I rarely queue for randoms because I don’t want to be rushed through the dungeons by impatient gamers who ignore people who are doing quests or helping new players learn the mechanics. I have zero interest in zipping through a dungeon at top speed, skipping mobs and sometimes bosses, because some folks want to collect as many crystals as they possibly can. I’d rather go mend walls in Cyrodiil for crystals, and I hate PvP.

Very much this. I hate rushing. I wish ESO didn't have these skills and CP-perks with increased speed for everyone. It is just a pain with all the rushing. Especially since tanks and healers tend to be, you know, not so strong on the STAM-department... :-/

HyekAr · July 2021

They can attach armor to a class(havy for tank/warrior)(light for dd) (robe for magics) some classes could wear few types, and tank-healers will dissapeared

And adding casting speed for magic skills and hiting speed for damage skills as a new passive ability

Or when it is heavy so the attack speed and casting speed should be cut, light with increased attack speed, and robe with casting speed
All the problems will be fixed

waterfairy · July 2021

alberichtano wrote: »

DarcyMardin wrote: »

Most of my characters are either real healers or real tanks, but I rarely queue for randoms because I don’t want to be rushed through the dungeons by impatient gamers who ignore people who are doing quests or helping new players learn the mechanics. I have zero interest in zipping through a dungeon at top speed, skipping mobs and sometimes bosses, because some folks want to collect as many crystals as they possibly can. I’d rather go mend walls in Cyrodiil for crystals, and I hate PvP.

Very much this. I hate rushing. I wish ESO didn't have these skills and CP-perks with increased speed for everyone. It is just a pain with all the rushing. Especially since tanks and healers tend to be, you know, not so strong on the STAM-department... :-/

Let them race ahead and die to the boss then leave them dead til they quit the dungeon. The tank sets the pace not the dps.

Agenericname · July 2021

alberichtano wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

Warstory wrote: »

Every other MMO that has a queue system for dungeons/raids has a way to deal with this. It's to the point now where almost half of the lfg/pugs I do has a fake tank or healer in it, and a lot of the times it's just straight up 4 dps (no taunts and zero heals). I can accept they are bad tanks and healers, no problem. What I can't or won't accept is a dps queuing as a tank or healer just because they somehow think that their time is more valuable and don't want to wait in the queue that dps deal with right now. Vote to kick is not the answer because a fast kick and replacement almost never happens and people would rather just die a whole bunch instead of having to kick/replace/wait for the role to be filled properly. There is no risk or downside to the person queuing into the wrong role other than a slight chance of getting kicked, but even then they can just log onto another character, re-queue (in the wrong role) and end up right back in the group they were just kicked from further wasting the everyone's time... (Why is the kicked timer not account wide, [snip]?)

Now before a Captain Obvious stats the obvious...
(Yes, I know I can form my own groups and do.)
(Yes, I do tank and heal and not just dps in pugs.)
(Yes, I know I can leave the group at any time.)
(Yes, I know you can and I have successfully ran 3 and even 4 dps in vet dungeons.)
These are all band aid solutions to a broken system that only rewards the people who are breaking it.

So what can be done to fix the problem? I don't know, I'm not a developer and don't know what is and isn't technically possible with the HeroEngine. If possible, the queue system for LFG needs to have a criteria to look for before allowing someone to queue into a certain role.
Does the person have a taunt on their bar? Check
Does the person have sufficient health to tank the content that was queued for? Check
Does the person have the appropriate armor/armor buffs/shields/and cp talents? Check
If all checks pass, lock the gear/skills/talents in place required for the content and add them to the queue.
A system like this would allow extra rewards for filling and completing certain roles that are badly needed need in the queue like tank, thus speeding up everyone queue.

I know there are a lot of different play-styles and builds out there but there needs to be a bare minimum criteria in place to allow someone to queue for certain roles, otherwise little Timmy Turbo is just going to keep abusing the queue and wasting everyone's time. The only other options are to allow reporting and banning of people abusing the queue (first report a warning, second report 24 hour ban), but this would likely be abused it's self. The other option? Just leave it as it is and dumb down all lfg/pug content to allow for a random 4 dps to clear. What I can say for sure is that the LFG experience has progressively gotten worse over the past couple of years and it needs fixed right now.

There is no timer for someone who has been kicked.

If you want more tanks in queue, punishing them by locking their skills and gear isnt really going to entice them. Fake tanks arent displacing real tanks. They fill a vacuum.

If youre going to set limits and restrictions on what my tank can wear and their abilities, wouldnt it also be fair to set a minimum on damage as well?

Rnd are already dumbed down to the point that 4 dds can complete them. Its why this conversation happens.

"Fake tanks arent displacing real tanks. They fill a vacuum."

No they are not. They are pretending to get faster into the random dungeon, because DDs abound.

The basic problem is that ESO is a damage-is-king kinda game, where healers and tanks are pretty much ignored, except for raids. More love and awesomness to tanks and healers, and it will change, methinks.

More love for tanks? Fine. How does that contradict what I said?

Yes, DDs skip ahead by queueing as a tank. I doubt anyone has ever debated that. My queue as a tank is still very much instant, even with all the fake tanks out there, so they're not taking my spot. They're not displacing real tanks, at least not thus far. If my queue goes beyond 20 seconds I assume that its broken, drop, and requeue.

If fake tanks were taking the place of real tanks in the queue, we would have a wait. So it reasonable to assume that they are filling the vacuum created by not having enough real tanks in the queue. Thats not me advocating for fake roles. That's simply stating the obvious.

Youre first sentence was "no" then everything after stated the same thing I said.

[edited to remove quote]

alberichtano · July 2021

Ceejengine wrote: »

The reason there aren't any tanks or heals is pretty simple.

DPS outnumber both support roles 10 to 1.

DPS want to see big numbers and kill things quickly. When that doesn't happen they whine & complain. Just like the dozen + replies to this thread, and the dozen + threads identical to this one. ZOS MUST change something so their queue times aren't an hour or more. In the mind of most of these winners, they don't have to change anything. Their job is big number not heal or tank.

Except when that big number is the number of minutes they've been in queue. Its never their fault. Its not their fault the level 27 tank didn't keep up with the CP980 magden that Bird of Prey'd through all the trash then pulled the boss. That tank spent all his limited stamina sprinting to keep up. Then that tank couldn't block and everyone died. Then the DPS flames the tank and that person reserves to never deal with random trash DPS again.

And that new player doesn’t have to. They'll get in a guild and group with people they know and like. Its wonderful. Stress free. Room to grow. Patience to learn. None of the migraine that is random general queue.

If you want to see direct examples - go find one of the hundreds of posts made by a new player asking people in randoms not to rush so they can have fun too. Go look at the replies. Find the ones that have 5+ agrees. What did that person say?

"Randoms aren't for you to learn. They have no responsibility to wait for you."

"Its their daily too and they don't want to wait for a newbie. If you can't keep up, don't queue."

"If you want to slow down and do the story, don't waste people's time in randoms. They signed up to get the dungeon done quickly, and you're ruining that. If you want to go slow, do it with a pre-made group."

Then look at these threads popping up wondering how in all the worlds could people not be tanking for memeeme.

These posts are demanding that ZOS force people to tank for them. Like, what?? What value is there in suffering through 10-20 minutes with insufferable people just to get them their random daily reward?

Why would anyone willingly deal with that?

Oh wait, we don't.

Its not the overwhelmingly toxic DPS playerbase's fault that causes tanks to avoid them, its that those tanks are selfish and rude for not catering to their every whim.

I've played since beta. I've seen whiners consistently complain about how damage abilities should heal. Buffs should be widely available on damage abilities. Everything should allow them to easily solo overland content.

This is all a byproduct of those complaints.

No one queues as healers because they're worthless in everything but hard content, and even then theyre boring to play except when you get to dodge roll..

Its also miserable to play as a solo healer. You do 0 damage and any healing you do output is a massive overhead. Then when you do queue theres something like an 85% chance any mistake they make is going to get them attacked, bullied and probably kicked.

Anything that ever made a healer valuable, like exclusive access to powerful offensive buffs are now baked in passives or secondary effect on generally available hybrid skills instead of requiring a dedicated intention to buff.

Look at expert hunter in the fighter's guild.

Something like half of all skills and gearsets heal in some capacity.

No one queues as tanks because its incredibly dull in everything but hard content. Everyone has easy access to damage mitigation and powerful shields.

Look at brawler in the 2h tree. High AoE damage that creates a powerful damage shield. What?

These kinds of design decisions (made at the ruthless demand of DPS players) create a game where solo builds are the only thing that's fun to play.

Except solo builds can't tank harder group content.

I'll say that I am not surprised at all at the demands that ZOS force other players to tank for them. They're even in this thread.

There are only 2 solutions to this problem. Regardless of either, ESO DPS players should humble themselves and learn how to be kind and patient.

1.) Stop almost all hybridization of skills and gearsets. Create a necessity for support classes. Give healers the tools to empower others, including class pets so they can play solo sometimes.

Go find a healer main in other games and ask them what is the most fun about healing.

For like.. 70% of em its being the exclusive access to powerful buffs and relied upon for survival.

If ZOS removed 99.999% hybrid functionality from skills and gearsets across the board, and modified skills to focus on either
A.) Damage, or,
B.) Mitigation, or
C.) Healing, or
D.) Buffing, or
E.) AoE damage or healing

And any skill or gearset that does any multiple of those, it will never be as effective at any one category as skills that only do one thing.

By forcing people to focus on one of those 5 categories, you create a HUGE market for healers or tanks.

This also has the byproduct of drastically nerfing unkillable high damage procset tanks in PvP because there simply is no way for them to access all that power at once.

Of course all the DPS mains will immediately demean this suggestion because its a widespread nerf and if ZOS takes away all their power, they'll quit and go play some other MMO.

Which is fine with me, enjoy your hour long queues.

2.) Nerf boss damage, remove 1 hit mechanics, and cause threat to be generated passively by heavy armor / shield wearers. Make current taunts not have any threat generation unless wearing heavy armor or a shield.

Then get rid of the role select. Instead, once 4 people queue, the dungeon starts. All bosses now play similar to trash mobs but with unique mechanics.

Then your DPS players get to keep all their power, gain more power, and ESO can now focus on empowering hybrid builds instead of this weird, shaky middle ground we have now.

"Its not their fault the level 27 tank didn't keep up with the CP980 magden that Bird of Prey'd through all the trash then pulled the boss. That tank spent all his limited stamina sprinting to keep up. Then that tank couldn't block and everyone died. Then the DPS flames the tank and that person reserves to never deal with random trash DPS again."

Loved most of what you wrote, but especially what I quoted.

alberichtano · July 2021

Arkew wrote: »

the best way to destroy this plague is simple

create spirit system in dungeon like battle spirit in pvp

Tank spirit: increase all defensive buff (you give or have) duration +40 % , armor increased by 10 k , max health +5 K but reduce all damage done by 90 %

DD spirit: increase damage done by 50 % ,increase offensive buff duration (you give or have) by 40 %, reduce all healing/shield done by 90 %

Healer: increase power of healing by 50 %, increase all duration of buff who increase regen by 40 %, reduce all damage done by 90 %

this simple system make fake tanking or healing more punishing for dd because they gonna have their damage nerfed into oblivion and give them no choice of playing the role they tagged.

I wouldn't give the DDs that bonus though, as it actually increases the lust to play DD.

The issue is that tanks are just not needed in most instances (raids, sometimes even just vet raids, aside). Self-heals, good mitigation and getting the boss down fast is better than having a no-good tank or healer along.

Darrett · July 2021

alberichtano wrote: »

DarcyMardin wrote: »

Most of my characters are either real healers or real tanks, but I rarely queue for randoms because I don’t want to be rushed through the dungeons by impatient gamers who ignore people who are doing quests or helping new players learn the mechanics. I have zero interest in zipping through a dungeon at top speed, skipping mobs and sometimes bosses, because some folks want to collect as many crystals as they possibly can. I’d rather go mend walls in Cyrodiil for crystals, and I hate PvP.

Very much this. I hate rushing. I wish ESO didn't have these skills and CP-perks with increased speed for everyone. It is just a pain with all the rushing. Especially since tanks and healers tend to be, you know, not so strong on the STAM-department... :-/

I also hate rushing, even in normal dungeons. I haven’t done any veteran dungeons because the opportunities to learn mechanics in normal are so rare; you have CP1400 DPS people running top speed and bypassing mechanics so people never learn how to do them, and leaving new players behind so they can’t even read the dungeon story.

You also have a ridiculous elitism based on a blind adherence to meta builds. The amount of abuse I’ve gotten over being a healer with 1H/Shield on the backbar is insane. I’m not here to provide DPS, I’m here to heal and buff and make sure I’m alive to do those jobs.

The only way to fix this issue is to force reliance on the roles through the content. Heal and tanking checks need to be in place, and mechanics implemented that discourage all-out DPS races at certain times or in certain encounters.

alberichtano · July 2021

Xebov wrote: »

jle30303 wrote: »

To be frank: The worst thing about being a tank isn't even the fact that actually trying to win fights is much slower in overland/solo play (although it is) - it's other players.

You are right, but you only cover the reasons why many more experienced tanks dont use the dungeon finder. The other half why we have so few tanks to begin with is also important.

Sooner or later every Tank player is confronted with the game outside of dungeons and trials. Like all other players we also have all the Solo Tasks like Quests and Daily Quests, Delves, Public Dungeons and World Bosses, but also Solo Arenas We have to farm gear, gather Skillpoints and resources. We have to level abilities and progress skillines. All these areas are cathered towards DD players wich requires Tanks to get and maintain a DD spec, including gear/skills/CP, to be able to do them in more than snail speed. This problem is entirely ignored by ZOS and mostly dismissed by parts of the community. When i brought the CP issue up in a thread earlier this year the suggestion from DD players was that i can easily respec back and forth or get a DD character for tasks outside of dungeons and trials. These are the same kind of ppl that complain about long queue times and tell ppl that tehy dont need tanks but then ask why no experienced tanks are available.

In my opinion these are points that have to be adressed to get more players to see Tanks as a sustainable way of playing the game. This of course requires that DD players start to understand the problems and support solutions. Sadly in most cases we end up with threads like this where players suggest restraints for the few remaining tanks to achieve their personal goals.

Another alternative that has for long now crossed my mind... just abolish tanks and healers completely. Not my dream solution, being mainly a tank and healer (I am no good at the whole "push buttons rapidly in correct succession again and again-kind of playstyle), but since I see tanks and healers being ever more useless and pushed out, why not just do away with them completely? :-/

waterfairy · July 2021

Darrett wrote: »

alberichtano wrote: »

DarcyMardin wrote: »

Most of my characters are either real healers or real tanks, but I rarely queue for randoms because I don’t want to be rushed through the dungeons by impatient gamers who ignore people who are doing quests or helping new players learn the mechanics. I have zero interest in zipping through a dungeon at top speed, skipping mobs and sometimes bosses, because some folks want to collect as many crystals as they possibly can. I’d rather go mend walls in Cyrodiil for crystals, and I hate PvP.

Very much this. I hate rushing. I wish ESO didn't have these skills and CP-perks with increased speed for everyone. It is just a pain with all the rushing. Especially since tanks and healers tend to be, you know, not so strong on the STAM-department... :-/

I also hate rushing, even in normal dungeons. I haven’t done any veteran dungeons because the opportunities to learn mechanics in normal are so rare; you have CP1400 DPS people running top speed and bypassing mechanics so people never learn how to do them, and leaving new players behind so they can’t even read the dungeon story.

You also have a ridiculous elitism based on a blind adherence to meta builds. The amount of abuse I’ve gotten over being a healer with 1H/Shield on the backbar is insane. I’m not here to provide DPS, I’m here to heal and buff and make sure I’m alive to do those jobs.

The only way to fix this issue is to force reliance on the roles through the content. Heal and tanking checks need to be in place, and mechanics implemented that discourage all-out DPS races at certain times or in certain encounters.

if a cp1400 is racing ahead in a normal dung pug you should clown them for not doing the normal dungeon solo. Any time I join a normal.pug it's because I want to help noobs complete it and I will always wait for those who are doing the quest for the first time.
Ignore the haters and do what's best for you...I've actually been kicked in a pug for having a resto staff on back bar as a dps mag sorc lol

umagon · July 2021

From a tank’s perspective part of the problem is the lack of incentive to play tank and healer roles due to the way zos handles some awards and balancing. For example, if a person spends most of their time honing their craft as a tank gear their character out; then sees an item like void bash a back bar tank tool behind a solo arena with an aggressive dps check how is that going to make that player feel?

Especially when vateshran hollows could have been broken out into three challenge paths one gate for dps, one gate for healer, one gate for tank. And the center fight with changing “failure checks” one dps, one taunt and take the npc to location X, and one heal the friendly npc and keep them alive.

Another example making heavy armor slower than the other types, now group members run ahead of the tank before you can taunt then they get nearly killed or get killed and that’s is the tank’s “fault” or the healer’s “fault”. Tanks get to “have fun” doing places like cradle of shadows when their group leaves them behind. Or when tanks spend years, yes years asking for improvements to one or more of their skill tool kit and get little or nothing like with bolstering darkness. Then there was that you know very long thread about healer role needs where the original poster was vaporized years ago.

Then there are the mythic items dps has the harpooner's wading kilt and other options. What heavy armor does the tank get? Bloodlord's embrace which honestly, I don’t know who uses that, as mag regen has never been a problem on my tank and gaze of sithis which removes all block mitigation. And I could go into how non-useful many of the other heavy sets are but I would be here all day.

ZOS tends to send the message through their actions that the tank and healing roles are of little value.

alberichtano · July 2021

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Tanking used to be by far my favourite role, back when I could do it effectively and still deal out decent damage (about 17-20k). Now, however, I hate it. They've killed hybrids, for most of us at least. My block fails more often than not after the "fixes" to it, my ranged taunt fails reliably, and the dungeons are plagued with glitches that make my job a nightmare (this mostly happened after Harrowstorm patch, with the great migration of server calculations). Add to that the penalties now of being even slower and more miserable in heavy armour while everyone else runs ahead and makes your job of controlling a room full of adds impossible? And even simple overland questing in between queues a slog? No thanks. With all the pressure of the dungeon being on you to perform your job perfectly, and having to suffer through all that, it's a nightmare now. To some degree it always has been, if you take into account that tanks are also expected half the time to not even wear tank sets themselves because they're "selfish". So not only can you not do damage, but you can TAKE even less damage due to having to wear something completely useless to your own character such as Powerful Assault or Alkosh. So I do agree if tanks are to be used more commonly, they'll need some notable increases to quality of life. Moreso in the department of tanks being able to deal their own modest amount of damage again, rather than simply being miserable buff slaves. But that will never happen as long as pve and pvp are still being "balanced" together.

Couldn't agree more. The whole "heavy armor makes you take more damage (magic damage to be precise) while medium armor has NO penalties... well, it is hard to feel the love, or even not to feel the hate from whoever designed it this way.

alberichtano · July 2021

Ceejengine wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Overland content is TOO Simple and lacks any mechanics or damage that pushes the player to actually pay attention - for dodging or bashing/interrupting, avoid the red areas, etc. the game does NOT punish the player for not paying attention.

Simple is the best word for it. I constantly read posts where people say its too easy and needs to be harder.

But you have it 100%. We don't need harder hitting mobs, or mobs with more health, or even more mobs per group. We need more complex NPC behavior.

We also need norm and vet dungeons to have identical mechanics. Just tuned WAY down for normal.

Anonx31st wrote: »

The only problem where there is fake tanks/healer (like what this post is referencing to) is from normal random dungeons. There is no fake/healer tanks while doing veteran hm content with a pug. By eliminating the daily normal dungeon (which also count for your random daily dungeon) for players that are lvl 50, then posts like this would of never been created. Tanks are not needed in normal dungeons when they are done by players that are max lvl.

If you forced level 50 people to only queue in vet dungeons for their random, i agree that the number of posts like this would disappear, because 85% of the playerbase would no longer random queue and therefore not care at all about the problem.

These threads would be replaced with "ugh so frustrating random queue is a ghost town. ZOS plz force people to queue for me."

I understand that empathy is extremely difficult to give when you have those leet deeps to put out, but you need to understand a LOT of people have anxiety doing harder content, or cannot do it for multiple reasons, or are just bad at the game and they know it.

There are people that don't want to spend 4 hours dying (and getting kicked / ditched / flamed) to trash because they just can't get their DPS up, or dodge roll fast enough, or whatever it is that is holding them back.

The daily random reward isn't even that good. 10 transmute crystals, some common crafting mats, and a pure inferno staff of endurance is NOT worthy of vet content exclusives.

If you think vet should give more than that, what do you suggest? What specific gear piece should be available?

I run 5x tanks thru content of all degrees of difficulty. I am NOT trying for random vet DLC HM with pug DPS. 95% of the time the healer and I end up at 65%+ total DPS.

Why would I subject myself to that misery when I can just get my friends who I know are solid players AND I like playing with them.

Without normal randoms, your DPS queue time will be 2-3 hours +. If people want shorter queues: change your personality enough to make friends. Be kind, friendly and helpful enough that tanks WANT to make sure you get your daily rewards because they like you. I know I seek out awesome DPS friends/ guildies and make sure I get them in on my tank queue.

They don't even have to have high DPS. If someone likes talking to you, they will want to talk to you in a dungeon too.

"But you have it 100%. We don't need harder hitting mobs, or mobs with more health, or even more mobs per group. We need more complex NPC behavior."

This. Just making mobs have more health will just drag out already boring battles. Giving them more damage could make it more interesting, and make tanks more viable, but would make it harder for new players and characters.

More complex and varied behaviour would be interesting, but I think that would take too much work and probably cause both bugs and risk causing lag. :-/

alberichtano · July 2021

Grimm_Cortex wrote: »

Can you stop asking for nerfing, modifying, punishing or something else ...

And actually looked at the game, some content can be done without an actual tank or/heal, some can't

So If you find yourself in situation, that are not working by the end ... So take action IN GAME ! launch a vote or leave the group. Yeah I know leaving mean waiting 15 minutes ... but hey ! If you are able to discuss with the group in order to find a solution, you always have your freedom.

Stop asking for policing everything .. I'm tired of that ! And I'm not the only one !

"And actually looked at the game, some content can be done without an actual tank or/heal, some can't"

That's the issue though.

alberichtano · July 2021

TimeViewer wrote: »

I usually tank, real tank, but still get people who want to run past everything or Leroys (Jenkins) who want to drag everything in the dungeon into a single fight and then vote kick me if I don't go along with their stupidity (and if I can they wind up on my ignore list, shame that doesn't keep them out of my parties though).

1. A tank cannot AOE taunt
2. Taunts and Blocks and Sprinting cost Stamina, a Tank's main attribute is Health not Stamina, lack of support (from healer's) can undo even the best of tanks in some of these zerg attempts.
3. Given the changes to max level I really don't understand why people still insist on avoiding trash fights, XP is XP and running past them like scared little mice is just.. no.
4. Why PUG a Vet? If you can PUG a Vet with some of the worst players and still manage to drag their sorry butts through it you'll wind up a much more skilled player and when you DO get a good party, EZ PZ

I also run healers, as to this I have but one comment

1. Stop standing in stupid.

alberichtano · July 2021

pelle412 wrote: »

Nothing will be done about this. Nothing. It's been out there for years, generating 5 new threads every week on forums. Stop posting useless threads that all lead to nothing. There is only one way to deal with this, don't use dungeon finder.

"Stop posting useless threads that all lead to nothing."

So... you want the forums to close down? Because that is pretty much what you are saying here.

alberichtano · July 2021

iksde wrote: »

Bloodraven187 wrote: »

...it's that they don't have the available funds and resources for it.

lol

Why are you laughing? They don't. Sure, ZOS and Microsoft are wealthy, but they didn't get wealthy by showering their dev teams with any more resources than absolutely necessary. Profit is the name of the game.

alberichtano · July 2021

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Or maybe don't que for hard dungeons. Problem solved.

There is VERY few normal dungeons that require a tank, so if your running random normals, a fake tank or fake healer actually helps you burn the dungeon faster in most cases.

IMO, the fake role issue is only a problem in Vet content, and that problem is easily solved by going in with pre-made groups. Otherwise, your going to get a mixed bag of nuts if you que and go with random players because the player base is a mixed bag of nuts - in terms of game mechanics comprehension, skill level, gear level, role, etc.

That is just the reality of matchmaking in this game. There's no ability to determine who is ACTUALLY suited for a specific role, skill level, etc.

"There is VERY few normal dungeons that require a tank"

Yes, but that is the PROBLEM, not the solution.

alberichtano · July 2021

umagon wrote: »

From a tank’s perspective part of the problem is the lack of incentive to play tank and healer roles due to the way zos handles some awards and balancing. For example, if a person spends most of their time honing their craft as a tank gear their character out; then sees an item like void bash a back bar tank tool behind a solo arena with an aggressive dps check how is that going to make that player feel?

Especially when vateshran hollows could have been broken out into three challenge paths one gate for dps, one gate for healer, one gate for tank. And the center fight with changing “failure checks” one dps, one taunt and take the npc to location X, and one heal the friendly npc and keep them alive.

Another example making heavy armor slower than the other types, now group members run ahead of the tank before you can taunt then they get nearly killed or get killed and that’s is the tank’s “fault” or the healer’s “fault”. Tanks get to “have fun” doing places like cradle of shadows when their group leaves them behind. Or when tanks spend years, yes years asking for improvements to one or more of their skill tool kit and get little or nothing like with bolstering darkness. Then there was that you know very long thread about healer role needs where the original poster was vaporized years ago.

Then there are the mythic items dps has the harpooner's wading kilt and other options. What heavy armor does the tank get? Bloodlord's embrace which honestly, I don’t know who uses that, as mag regen has never been a problem on my tank and gaze of sithis which removes all block mitigation. And I could go into how non-useful many of the other heavy sets are but I would be here all day.

ZOS tends to send the message through their actions that the tank and healing roles are of little value.

Precisely what I feel as well. As I said earlier, I wonder why they don't just remove tank and heal completely? Make it an all-DPS-game. :-/

svendf · July 2021

alberichtano wrote: »

umagon wrote: »

From a tank’s perspective part of the problem is the lack of incentive to play tank and healer roles due to the way zos handles some awards and balancing. For example, if a person spends most of their time honing their craft as a tank gear their character out; then sees an item like void bash a back bar tank tool behind a solo arena with an aggressive dps check how is that going to make that player feel?

Especially when vateshran hollows could have been broken out into three challenge paths one gate for dps, one gate for healer, one gate for tank. And the center fight with changing “failure checks” one dps, one taunt and take the npc to location X, and one heal the friendly npc and keep them alive.

Another example making heavy armor slower than the other types, now group members run ahead of the tank before you can taunt then they get nearly killed or get killed and that’s is the tank’s “fault” or the healer’s “fault”. Tanks get to “have fun” doing places like cradle of shadows when their group leaves them behind. Or when tanks spend years, yes years asking for improvements to one or more of their skill tool kit and get little or nothing like with bolstering darkness. Then there was that you know very long thread about healer role needs where the original poster was vaporized years ago.

Then there are the mythic items dps has the harpooner's wading kilt and other options. What heavy armor does the tank get? Bloodlord's embrace which honestly, I don’t know who uses that, as mag regen has never been a problem on my tank and gaze of sithis which removes all block mitigation. And I could go into how non-useful many of the other heavy sets are but I would be here all day.

ZOS tends to send the message through their actions that the tank and healing roles are of little value.

Precisely what I feel as well. As I said earlier, I wonder why they don't just remove tank and heal completely? Make it an all-DPS-game. :-/

As we do have senior player´s , people, who have hand health issue - or simple issue where they are not able to pull high dps, but instead is very much happy about playing a tank. What are your message to them ? You also have player´s, who are leveling a tank because it´s how theey wanna play. Let´s say you are approached by a player and she/he want your advice on leveling a tank by doing dungeons ( a lvl 20) and those dungeons are norm dungeons for a reason.

Be constructive in your own words how you would inform/approach this player and all other player´s, who feel dd isn´t the way they wanna go. Do it in a way so this very person do feel included and accepted for the role she/he wish to play.

Speak you mind

Selminus · July 2021

Warstory wrote: »

**Edit, I just got around to checking the replies on this and holy crap! This thread should be used as a case study for cherry-picking and selective memory. I can't believe, I refuse to believe that saying "a tank should have to have a taunt or a healer should have to have the ability to heal others on their bar before being able to queue for those roles" is a controversial statement. I refuse to believe it, period. I feel like I am being trolled after reading some of these replies. Let me clear a few things up for those you who are lets say, slightly challenged in the area of reading comprehension.

I am only talking about Vet LFG Dungeons. Normal LFG is beyond easy even for brand new players.

What I mean by "fake tank or fake healer" is a dps that queues for the tank or healer role and doesn't have any intention or ability to tank or heal for the group, just so they can have a fast queue time. I can work with/around a bad tank, healer or dps.

"Basic criteria", Zenimax would have to decide on that, at a bare minimum a taunt for tanks and the ability to heal other for healers before being able to queue for those roles. I am not suggesting they get to decide how you play/build your character.

When I say "lock the gear/skills/talents in place" until the dungeon is over, It's only what gear/skills/talents is needed for the role (decided by Zenimax) and it's so that they are not immediately swapped out when the queue pops. Does that mean they will use them? Nope, It just means they would be actively avoiding using them making kicking easier.

No, I am not just calling out fake tanks or fake healers... There are fake dps too, but the kick system works for those since dps are a dime a dozen, even good dps. The dps slot is filled almost instantly after making a kick, so there is no problem there.**

Every other MMO that has a queue system for dungeons/raids has a way to deal with this. It's to the point now where almost half of the lfg/pugs I do has a fake tank or healer in it, and a lot of the times it's just straight up 4 dps (no taunts and zero heals). I can accept they are bad tanks and healers, no problem. What I can't or won't accept is a dps queuing as a tank or healer just because they somehow think that their time is more valuable and don't want to wait in the queue that dps deal with right now. Vote to kick is not the answer because a fast kick and replacement almost never happens and people would rather just die a whole bunch instead of having to kick/replace/wait for the role to be filled properly. There is no risk or downside to the person queuing into the wrong role other than a slight chance of getting kicked, but even then they can just log onto another character, re-queue (in the wrong role) and end up right back in the group they were just kicked from further wasting everyone's time... (Why is the kicked timer not account wide, [snip]?)

Now before a Captain Obvious stats the obvious...
(Yes, I know I can form my own groups and do.)
(Yes, I do tank and heal and not just dps in pugs.)
(Yes, I know I can leave the group at any time.)
(Yes, I know you can and I have successfully ran 3 and even 4 dps in vet dungeons.)
These are all band aid solutions to a broken system that only rewards the people who are breaking it.

So what can be done to fix the problem? I don't know, I'm not a developer and don't know what is and isn't technically possible with the HeroEngine. If possible, the queue system for LFG needs to have a criteria to look for before allowing someone to queue into a certain role.
Does the person have a taunt on their bar? Check
Does the person have sufficient health to tank the content that was queued for? Check
Does the person have the appropriate armor/armor buffs/shields/and cp talents? Check
If all checks pass, lock the gear/skills/talents in place required for the content and add them to the queue.
A system like this would allow extra rewards for filling and completing certain roles that are badly needed need in the queue like tank, thus speeding up everyone queue.

I know there are a lot of different play-styles and builds out there but there needs to be a bare minimum criteria in place to allow someone to queue for certain roles, otherwise little Timmy Turbo is just going to keep abusing the queue and wasting everyone's time. The only other options are to allow reporting and banning of people abusing the queue (first report a warning, second report 24 hour ban), but this would likely be abused it's self. The other option? Just leave it as it is and dumb down all lfg/pug content to allow for a random 4 dps to clear. What I can say for sure is that the LFG experience has progressively gotten worse over the past couple of years and it needs fixed right now.

They're not going to do anything about it, thousands of people have complained here. They added companions instead. The best any player can do is drop group on these people, I just did it 10 minutes ago. It's inexcusable for people to cut the line without the right toon while the other 2 DDs do it the right way and all of those tanks out there do it the right way.

The saddest part of all of this is that WoW added AI to block it years ago and they're dinosaurs at this point.

[edited to remove quote]

Call_of_Red_Mountain · July 2021

You need a healer only in vet dlc hm dungeons (not all of them). Sad truth. Dps too high this days. You can burn everything with 3dd/tank. Wrong decisions from ZoS about healers and unbalanced dps. Imo.

You can finish simple vet dungeons with 4 dd. Without tank. Off course, i mean cp players who understand mechs.

Plus don't forget how many sets we need for support roles now. Different sets for different trials and some dlc dungeons. Not many ppl ready for that. This is why u can see weak heals and tanks everywhere.

Dungeon finder. Well, you know how it works for dd role. Endless queue. This is why i prefer "lf x role for x dungeon in zc or guilds". Also you can use "Must know mechs".

And... new cp system. Oh, man...

Auztinito · July 2021

Honestly, the trinity just doesn’t work for Elder Scrolls, period.

Honestly, they should provide less dps challenge and more mechanical challenges that don’t depend on dps. Also, remove leaderboards and every competitive element within the PvE content. You get better results when you don’t have players at each other’s throats over dps. Not to mention, actually tightening up the skill gap by actually letting players play the way they want (EX: one hotbar, no weaving) then you’ll see more players in end-game grinding will help.