Hexi wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

Hexi wrote: »

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

Hexi wrote: »

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

Warstory wrote: »

Does the person have a taunt on their bar? Check
Does the person have sufficient health to tank the content that was queued for? Check
Does the person have the appropriate armor/armor buffs/shields/and cp talents? Check
If all checks pass, lock the gear/skills/talents in place required for the content and add them to the queue.
A system like this would allow extra rewards for filling and completing certain roles that are badly needed need in the queue like tank, thus speeding up everyone queue.

And who are you or anyone else in the community that agrees with this, even the dev team members, to suggest what a person is or is not capable of tanking without solid proof that they cannot complete the content as a tank without your predefined checks...?

Artificial checks in the finder will simply make players not use it. The finder is already a terrible experience most of the time for a healer or tank that solo queues, and you want to punish them because you can't stand how others are abusing the queue?

Then, there is the problem that players can be in a group of 4 already, will you still enforce your requirements on them too? Doubt they need anyone to tell them what their 4-man can complete if they do it all the time and it's their group.

Also locking skills and sets after entering a dungeon is one of the worst ideas I have ever seen posted on this forums and shows you have never been in either the tank or heal role. If you have, you'd know tanks and healers swap gear and skills all the time to help complete runs because the DPS aren't adequate in the dungeon finder.

Lastly, you act as if artificial limitations will make tanks or healers any better in the queue or increase their amount.

It will do neither. The reason is because the game is a massive DPS check. But, even going further than that, there is zero reason for any tank or healer to run dungeons after doing their dailies because it isn't profitable and it's not really fun.

In fact, tanks and healers can lose profit when they expend gems on others or wipe due to a bad party. Not to mention that there is something even more valuable to every person playing the game: time.

Essentially you want yourself, the community, or ZOS to micromanage the tank and heal roles in the dungeon finder to "fix" a problem the kick button solves, and then think that any real tank or healer will accept being micromanaged so you can have what you perceive as "fun" at their expense while wasting their time?

Hard disagree.

How is it a horrible experience? I do 1 random for crystals every day on 5 characters, 1 tank and 2 healers, and never have any real issues.

Spam the vet queue, you will find out eventually

You will eventually find the DPS that think they are doing 1 billion damage a second and can't even outdamage you as a tank. They are very useful in dungeons with hard DPS checks that ZOS keeps adding (or ones player fail to listen to the mechanics to prevent wiping that can be beaten with an alternate strategy like Vet Moongrave Fane).

Why would any sane person pug vets?

Like what's the point?

Normals are excruciatingly boring after a certain point. They're for new(er) players. They see so much traffic because the rewards for the random do not reflect the time and risk involved.

Most groups clear vet just fine. In fact, our damage is so high in comparison to this content that even base game vets are trivialized.

Ive run into the groups that @ResidentContrarian is talking about. Theyre not the norm though. Vet DLCs are my favorite place to PUG. When I do run into them, I kindly explain why, and leave. I can do that without being insulting.

Its worth the risk IMO, but painful sometimes. Still more fun than normals, and fun is why I play.

Vet dungeons are designed to be run with normal dungeon gear, not yellow Vet Trial gear, and the HP pools of enemies reflect that.

Stop complaining about how boring the content is when you overgear it.

Why would you think that I wear golded out trial gear?
Gear is often over stated as the culprit for low damage.

Why would any sane person pug vets?

Like what's the point? [/quote]

PUG Random Vets. Makes it even more interesting. I do from time to time. If I have three hours to kick back and relax I often PUG a Vet dungeon (sometimes random) to see what happens.

Spent three hours in Fang Lair Vet when it first was released with a PUG group. Went through at least 4 DPS and two Healers before finishing the dungeon.

There is no system that involves reporting and investigating on ZOS’s end that will work or be seriously considered by them. You can report a gold farmer, have your entire guild report them, and three days later that exact farmer is still running their little route.

They have a skeleton crew and have for years as far as responding to reports. Hiring even one person to peruse faketank reports is beyond the scope of what they are going to do, it just is what it is. If they don’t invest in people that would curb gold farming, which impacts their margin - well, do the math on subjective fanktank report processing personnel.

Any solution must be handled programmatically, and simply so. It has to be very simple to implement and maintain or it just won’t happen.

Same with balance affecting things like battle spirit, as they have virtually no testing team and many years ago did away with the standing volunteer testing team. So anything that comes up in a meeting that would require data gathering to wrap their heads around and tweak, well. Realistically you have to take it off the table, because they just won’t do it.

The top damage taken/damage/healing for rewards idea presented in this thread is interesting, but how to stop one very good player from simply getting all three....

But it is the best idea I’ve seen.

I think they will just mark it up to an unfixable force of nature issue, since they are simply understaffed in the extreme to the point no real grappling with it is possible.

I do agree something must be changed, but if we're gonna start putting restrictions on Health and CP and healing, we should also put one on damage dealing. Make people pass a parse to queue as a DD.

I won't support a system that forces me to put on proper tank gear to stand in front of an enemy for upwards of an hour while Light Attack Andys wither it down with a combined DPS of 15k.
This scenario on its own is bad enough, but add the fact that they will be spitting bile at me or the healer the second something goes wrong (usually them ignoring mechanics) and you are left with an environment where all the competent proper Tanks and Healers want nothing to do with Group Finder DDs and move on to make their own groups with equally competent DDs. The vacuum they create can only be filled by fake tanks/healers who want to do quick dungeon runs.
Source: Years of healing and tanking group finder PUGs.

Fake Tanks and Healers are not the cause of the issue, they're a symptom.
And no, I of course don't endorse them.
-

As painfully obvious as it is, just join a guild where you'll find people who can help you or even become friends. Make your own Dungeon group with them. Group Finder is seen as an essential tool to do PvE content, but it really isn't.

I usually tank, real tank, but still get people who want to run past everything or Leroys (Jenkins) who want to drag everything in the dungeon into a single fight and then vote kick me if I don't go along with their stupidity (and if I can they wind up on my ignore list, shame that doesn't keep them out of my parties though).

1. A tank cannot AOE taunt
2. Taunts and Blocks and Sprinting cost Stamina, a Tank's main attribute is Health not Stamina, lack of support (from healer's) can undo even the best of tanks in some of these zerg attempts.
3. Given the changes to max level I really don't understand why people still insist on avoiding trash fights, XP is XP and running past them like scared little mice is just.. no.
4. Why PUG a Vet? If you can PUG a Vet with some of the worst players and still manage to drag their sorry butts through it you'll wind up a much more skilled player and when you DO get a good party, EZ PZ


I also run healers, as to this I have but one comment

1. Stop standing in stupid.

Warstory wrote: »

Every other MMO that has a queue system for dungeons/raids has a way to deal with this. It's to the point now where almost half of the lfg/pugs I do has a fake tank or healer in it, and a lot of the times it's just straight up 4 dps (no taunts and zero heals). I can accept they are bad tanks and healers, no problem. What I can't or won't accept is a dps queuing as a tank or healer just because they somehow think that their time is more valuable and don't want to wait in the queue that dps deal with right now. Vote to kick is not the answer because a fast kick and replacement almost never happens and people would rather just die a whole bunch instead of having to kick/replace/wait for the role to be filled properly. There is no risk or downside to the person queuing into the wrong role other than a slight chance of getting kicked, but even then they can just log onto another character, re-queue (in the wrong role) and end up right back in the group they were just kicked from further wasting the everyone's time... (Why is the kicked timer not account wide, [snip]?)

Now before a Captain Obvious stats the obvious...
(Yes, I know I can form my own groups and do.)
(Yes, I do tank and heal and not just dps in pugs.)
(Yes, I know I can leave the group at any time.)
(Yes, I know you can and I have successfully ran 3 and even 4 dps in vet dungeons.)
These are all band aid solutions to a broken system that only rewards the people who are breaking it.

So what can be done to fix the problem? I don't know, I'm not a developer and don't know what is and isn't technically possible with the HeroEngine. If possible, the queue system for LFG needs to have a criteria to look for before allowing someone to queue into a certain role.
Does the person have a taunt on their bar? Check
Does the person have sufficient health to tank the content that was queued for? Check
Does the person have the appropriate armor/armor buffs/shields/and cp talents? Check
If all checks pass, lock the gear/skills/talents in place required for the content and add them to the queue.
A system like this would allow extra rewards for filling and completing certain roles that are badly needed need in the queue like tank, thus speeding up everyone queue.

I know there are a lot of different play-styles and builds out there but there needs to be a bare minimum criteria in place to allow someone to queue for certain roles, otherwise little Timmy Turbo is just going to keep abusing the queue and wasting everyone's time. The only other options are to allow reporting and banning of people abusing the queue (first report a warning, second report 24 hour ban), but this would likely be abused it's self. The other option? Just leave it as it is and dumb down all lfg/pug content to allow for a random 4 dps to clear. What I can say for sure is that the LFG experience has progressively gotten worse over the past couple of years and it needs fixed right now.

Does the person have a taunt on their bar? Check
-Doesn't Matter, someone can always remove a taunt if they want after queuing...or simply not use it

Does the person have sufficient health to tank the content that was queued for? Check
-I have seen a sorc with 15k health successfully tank The Warrior in vHRC....not all tanks are health based

Does the person have the appropriate armor/armor buffs/shields/and cp talents? Check
-You don't get to decide what the appropriate sets and skills for other people are. PERIOD. The fact that the sets and skills YOU would use to tank something does not mean those are required...or that they are even very good for the content in question. IE...running a pure tank setup against Drodda in vDirefrost is worthless(not that vDirefrost even matters, just a quick example of where a tank is near worthless...especially when it comes to a low DPS pug group)


The answer is as it has always been. Vote to kick those who do not perform the roles they queued for and forming your own group. There is no other answer that doesn't infringe on other people.

How would you feel if I as a tank decided the gear/buffs/skills you had to run as a DPS? Yeah, that's what I thought.

[edited to remove quote]

Elden Hollow II on Veteran. We ended up with a Werewolf Tank. No Taunt. Me and the other DPS carried the whole run.

Good times!

Tessitura wrote: »

Take wow for example, only specific classes can queue as a tank, and then only the specifically defines tank specialization can do it, and that specialization is designed in a way that tanking can be it's only real job. If you want to dps you pick a different specialization. Its a great system that has worked for year for the purpose it serves and the idea of the Holy Trinity.

WoW push groups also focus on Tank and healers pushing their DPS to clear M+ , especially on higher keys 15-20's.

Tanks and healers become negligible depending on each persons individual skill cap and self awareness.

The problem will never resolve itself unless there's a quicker queue time for DD's , but there'll always be an appetite for some of the community to have 3DD 4DD setups, as when done correctly can lead to content being cleared more efficiently.

I do however agree though, when DD's queue up as a Tank/Healer but fail to add an average overall DPS to the group, that's a pet peeve of mine.

Nothing will be done about this. Nothing. It's been out there for years, generating 5 new threads every week on forums. Stop posting useless threads that all lead to nothing. There is only one way to deal with this, don't use dungeon finder.

Honestly this is kind of a waste the thread space and response effort, but since servers are down anyway....

Most people who are queueing up as fake tanks and fake healers are doing so for random normal dungeons for the daily reward. Personally I make a policy to never fake tank on a toon that can't actually tank on the principle that I might get saddled with a DLC dungeon and a bad group that doesn't

a) know the mechs
b) have any kind of damage shields or self heals slotted
c) thinks that the big red bad area is the safe zone

I have had to carry far too many groups through such situations before over the course of my time in MMO's of all sorts. Now, that being said....

The sheer fact of the matter is that if you NEED a real tank and healer to get through your normal dungeons then you need to look hard at yourself and ask why you can't survive. Are you taking too much damage? Ok, why? Standing in bad hoping to be healed through it? Standing there and just letting people beat on you? Getting overwhelmed by running in before the tank can get even a single hit on anything? Do you have and use any kind of damage shield? Are you giving yourself any kind of self heals like popping vigor or using crit surge? These are all the things that get 99.9% of people killed in normal dungeons because most people look at the glass canon meta and think it is the best/only way to play. Completely ignoring the fact that those metas are developed around a 12 man group with multiple support roles and party buffs. If you build for self-sufficiency yeah your dps will go down a bit, but you never will. Hell I usually fake tank with my stam sorc using inner fire, brawler, vigor, crit surge and pale order ring so healers CAN'T heal me....and I can solo most normals if I have to (and have had to on several occasions for all the above reasons).

Further, being a real tank in a random vet dungeon is no easy task, and sometimes can be more stressful than dealing with a fake tank as the dps. As an example I harken to my run of tempest island vet, hard mode, where the group of 2 dps and the healer just could not stay alive. So, on my tank doing a whopping 4k dps, I ended up having to do the boss by myself after wasting 5 minutes and 20 gems trying to rez them from 90% to completion. half an hour later, literally, I finally got it done. Had I been fake tanking I could have got it done without them in 10 minutes or less. At the least, while they really did suck, they had the grace to thank me for the carry and admit they needed it. Unlike a similar group in vet Arx HM who had the same problem living who screamed at me to just wipe and reset after the healer had rezzed both dps 10 times each, I had rezzed the healer 3 more and no one could be bothered paying attention to anything but their parse. Least I only had to clear 70% of the boss' health with my tank dps but it still took 20 minutes. The 2 dps got really salty and toxic, and even the healer was telling them how ridiculous the complaining was considering neither of them could stay up for more than 10 seconds even with the healer burning their magicka to 0. Everyone who has 'real' tanked random vets has stories like these, and healers aren't far behind.

So, before you throw hate at fake tanks and healers look at what you are doing for content and ask what makes it that you need them for? Ask yourself if there are things you can change so that you can do the carrying instead of being the one needing to be carried.

PS: this is not aimed at anyone in particular but is there as food for thought for all.

ForeverJenn wrote: »

I mostly tank and heal. I farm transmute stones from daily dungeons on all my chars. If the group doesn't need my support, I stay back and open containers. If they need me, I'll keep up. I have taught many appreciative players mechanics in DLC. It's how I deal with the crapshoot of randos. Otherwise, I queue with friends

and thats reason I just hate healers in pugs as I can heal myself, healer literally do nothing for group, just leech while rest of group is doing their job, just waste of space for actual support who would care to buff his group or debuf enemies to make run more efficient which is rarely in pugs or for just 3rd dd, even with low dps it would atleast five, will be trying to give something to group rather thna just leeching behind

Actually it is easer to fix than it is, they just need to attach the class with the role. Took thos classes which can be the specific role, like NB - DD.
And those classes which doesnt have any deffined role, so crete the 4th role: like damage support class.