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Hundreds of requests for a PVE Cyrodiil
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Indigogo✭✭✭✭✭I mean, at this point the thread should probably be closed.
Multiple people have taken the time to explain in really respectful ways, with real examples, as to why it would be harmful. Not just to pvp cyro, but to the whole player base.
See none of us are remotely worried that a pve cyro is coming, because it's not. Ever. Not even the tiniest remotest chance. I've got just as much chance of convincing zos to start selling dungeon and trial titles in the golden.
Pve cyro = unearned high end titles. Not going to happen.
We're trying to help the people making these requests move on from the internal roadblocks you have. So you can succeed and get the things you want, in a way that YOU CAN AVOID PVP.
As an aside, pvp players spend hella money in the crown store. Cause they sure as heck aren't doing mages guild or psijic again, or running out and doing skyshards when they make a new toon. Mount speed, race change tokens... pvp players would be the biggest consumers of utility items.
9 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I mean, at this point the thread should probably be closed.
Multiple people have taken the time to explain in really respectful ways, with real examples, as to why it would be harmful. Not just to pvp cyro, but to the whole player base.
See none of us are remotely worried that a pve cyro is coming, because it's not. Ever. Not even the tiniest remotest chance. I've got just as much chance of convincing zos to start selling dungeon and trial titles in the golden.
Pve cyro = unearned high end titles. Not going to happen.
We're trying to help the people making these requests move on from the internal roadblocks you have. So you can succeed and get the things you want, in a way that YOU CAN AVOID PVP.
As an aside, pvp players spend hella money in the crown store. Cause they sure as heck aren't doing mages guild or psijic again, or running out and doing skyshards when they make a new toon. Mount speed, race change tokens... pvp players would be the biggest consumers of utility items.
Side note: I don't have any data to back up the assertion that PVP players buy the most mount speed boosts across the whole playerbase, but anecdotally, yes, PVPers buy a lot of mount speed boosts.
I used to chuckle over it. Why buy something for crowns when you can just log in every day and pay gold?
Then I started playing my StamWarden alt with my PVP guild. Facing a month of being below 60 mount speed, perpetually falling behind the group, getting ganked because I was alone, rezzing far away, and then trying to catch up to the guild, getting ganked, rinse repeat...I bought the mount speed upgrades.
No regrets. 5 -
kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭" I say I want a PvE Cyrodiil... and you say I shouldn't have that because... you don't want me to have it? It's not going to affect you because I'm not in the PvP version. You're losing nothing if they make a PvE version of the zone..."
It has been explained many times how a PvE only Cyrodiil would have a negative impact on PvP.and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."4 -
Morgha_Kul✭✭✭✭✭
✭VaranisArano wrote: »Morgha_Kul wrote: »Morgha_Kul wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Morgha_Kul wrote: »Ok... here's what I'm seeing.
PvP exists only in Cyrodiil (or duels in any zone). If PvP players want to expand that to having PvP exlusive copies of all zones... what would that do? It would spread out the already small PvP community over even MORE area... making it nearly impossible for PvP players to actually do any PvP. So, let's stop trying to push that notion.
PvP players don't want a PvE version of Cyrodiil... because it will take PvE players out of the PvP zone? What I see there is PvP players lamenting they don't have easy targets to kill that can't fight back. Remember, most PvE players will be there alone, and/or will not have optimized gear. More, they won't be as practiced as PvP players are maximizing dps or defenses. My characters average between 5-10k dps. How would I have ANY hope of competing with a PvP built character doing 100k+ dps? The answer is I wouldn't. Therefore, I must conclude that the only reason PvP players would object to PvE players having an option to NOT enter the PvP zone is that they would lose the risk free targets. Such players aren't really interested in actual PvP, just easy kills.
There's not enough PvE content in Cyrodiil? That's already been demonstrated to not be true, but let's suppose it IS, for the sake of argument. Having a sizable zone with nothing of substance in it means it's an area that can be ADDED to by development, after the fact. In a sense, that's kind of the whole point of an MMO... that the world of the game exist independently of content.
In short, I see no valid reason NOT to make a PvE verson of Cyrodiil.
Take out the rewards from that PVE version, or substitute different rewards, and I agree with you. Have your PVE-only zone.
Because you missed one objection: I want you to play the zone as intended if you want the rewards intended for that zone
If you want Master Angler, you should fish in PvPvE Cyrodiil, as the Devs intended.
If you want Tamriel Skyshard Hunter, you should get your skyshards from PvPvE Cyrodiil, as the Devs intended.
If you want the lead for the Malacath's Band of Brutality part, you should kill bosses in PvPvE Imperial City, as the Devs intended.
If you want event tickets for Midyear Mayhem, a event celebrating all things PVP, you darned well better be doing your dailies in the PvPvE Cyrodiil and Imperial City, as the Devs intended.
If that's something you can agree with, great!
If not, then it starts to look like just another request to get the rewards of a PvPvE zone with none of the risk of PVP.
I would agree with that, PvP rewards should be available only to PvP. However, there are some PvP-only rewards, notably cosmetic things (which are the bread and butter of RPers, who DON'T PvP), that should be made available to PvE players.
And most of these cosmetics are either PvP related, or they have alternatives that can be found in PvE.
Cosmetic things aren't PvP related insofar as they don't do anything to improve your performance. That said, there are undoubtedly SOME cosmetic things that should remain exclusive to PvP (such as the Emperor's outfit).Morgha_Kul wrote: »Therefore, I must conclude that the only reason PvP players would object to PvE players having an option to NOT enter the PvP zone is that they would lose the risk free targets. Such players aren't really interested in actual PvP, just easy kills.
Your conclusion is incorrect. I'm a healer in Cyrodiill (so I don't kill anyone) and I object to having a PVE version. Why? Because it diminishes the achievements of everyone else who was able to clear the PVE content in Cyrodill while putting themselves at risk of PVP.
Not wanting to do something is not the same as not being able to do something.
That sounds like sour grapes to me. You don't want someone else to have something because you didn't have it.VaranisArano wrote: »Morgha_Kul wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Morgha_Kul wrote: »Ok... here's what I'm seeing.
PvP exists only in Cyrodiil (or duels in any zone). If PvP players want to expand that to having PvP exlusive copies of all zones... what would that do? It would spread out the already small PvP community over even MORE area... making it nearly impossible for PvP players to actually do any PvP. So, let's stop trying to push that notion.
PvP players don't want a PvE version of Cyrodiil... because it will take PvE players out of the PvP zone? What I see there is PvP players lamenting they don't have easy targets to kill that can't fight back. Remember, most PvE players will be there alone, and/or will not have optimized gear. More, they won't be as practiced as PvP players are maximizing dps or defenses. My characters average between 5-10k dps. How would I have ANY hope of competing with a PvP built character doing 100k+ dps? The answer is I wouldn't. Therefore, I must conclude that the only reason PvP players would object to PvE players having an option to NOT enter the PvP zone is that they would lose the risk free targets. Such players aren't really interested in actual PvP, just easy kills.
There's not enough PvE content in Cyrodiil? That's already been demonstrated to not be true, but let's suppose it IS, for the sake of argument. Having a sizable zone with nothing of substance in it means it's an area that can be ADDED to by development, after the fact. In a sense, that's kind of the whole point of an MMO... that the world of the game exist independently of content.
In short, I see no valid reason NOT to make a PvE verson of Cyrodiil.
Take out the rewards from that PVE version, or substitute different rewards, and I agree with you. Have your PVE-only zone.
Because you missed one objection: I want you to play the zone as intended if you want the rewards intended for that zone
If you want Master Angler, you should fish in PvPvE Cyrodiil, as the Devs intended.
If you want Tamriel Skyshard Hunter, you should get your skyshards from PvPvE Cyrodiil, as the Devs intended.
If you want the lead for the Malacath's Band of Brutality part, you should kill bosses in PvPvE Imperial City, as the Devs intended.
If you want event tickets for Midyear Mayhem, a event celebrating all things PVP, you darned well better be doing your dailies in the PvPvE Cyrodiil and Imperial City, as the Devs intended.
If that's something you can agree with, great!
If not, then it starts to look like just another request to get the rewards of a PvPvE zone with none of the risk of PVP.
I would agree with that, PvP rewards should be available only to PvP. However, there are some PvP-only rewards, notably cosmetic things (which are the bread and butter of RPers, who DON'T PvP), that should be made available to PvE players.
The argument to that is always going to be "they are available to PvE players, they just have to do PvP." And it will never matter what type of play someone is into, the choice is forever going to be "do something you hate or suck it up and go without." That's what it all boils down to in the end.
That's correct, because that is how ESO and indeed most games are designed.
You play the game as intended, including doing content you dislike, in order to get the rewards. You don't say "I hate X content, can I get the same rewards for not doing the content I hate?"
Well, okay, some people on the forums DO say exactly that. See my example about housing enthusiasts asking why they have to do a trial in order to get the boat furnishing they want. Or law-abiding roleplayers complaining they couldn't get event tickets from the TG/DB events. This isn't just a PVP-hater thing, which only goes to show that it is how ESO is designed. What this is, is the understandable, but flawed desire of players to avoid content they dislike while still getting everything they want. A proverb about the having and eating of cakes to mind. Of course some players want it. Equally obviously, the Devs don't cater to it.
For example, let's look at a cosmetic rewards that are genuinely locked behind PVP: Legate Black dye, Battlegrounds Style pages, and the Emperor costume.
@Morgha_Kul, would you say that PVEers are unfairly deprived of those cosmetics? That they should have PVE-only opportunities to earn cosmetics that are locked behind doing a ton of Alliance War activities in a PvPvE zone, fighting in a ton of Battlegrounds, or being the top-scoring player of your faction when they capture the six ring keeps, respectively? "ZOS, I want to roleplay as the Emperor, so I need the costume, please give it to me!"
Would you then turn around and say that PVP-only players should be able to earn cosmetics that are locked behind PVE group content? I think that Captain Varanis Arano would look smashing running around Cyrodiil on the Sunspire Champion Senche-Lion while wearing the Godslayer title, even though my chances of completing Sunspire Godslayer and the rest of the Sunspire achievements is virtually nil, probably about as good as the chance of a PVP-hating player doing Battlegrounds long enough to get all the Style pages.
And if you say yes to both, then have you really grappled with why ZOS effectively says "No thanks, do the content if you want the rewards"?
It is strongly to ZOS' benefit to put rewards of different types, including cosmetics, behind different types of content in ESO. Most players will try an awful lot of different things for cosmetics and that's exactly what ZOS wants. Not every player will, but they are a minority, and the benefits of handing that minority a skip button doesn't outweigh the benefits of getting most players to try out different content.
It sucks to be in the minority, sittting there like "Whelp, I guess I'm never getting that Emperor costume because I hate PVP and there's no way I'm getting it." Because let's be honest, you aren't going to get it the correct way, and ZOS isn't going to hand it to you. (And to be fair, I'm not going to get it either, because I'm neither that good at PVP nor willing to lose sleep trying for the title, even though I'd love to roleplay as the Empress.)
The conclusion I'm coming to is that when people say "Sure, I'll accept no rewards" what they really mean is "Sure, I'll accept no PVP rewards, which doesn't include any of things I really want that can currently only be earned with the risk of PVP in a PvPvE zone."
Not pointing fingers at anyone in particular here. So much as paraphrasing stuff I've heard on similar threads in years past: Some people want the skyshards - "Oh, skyshards in Cyrodiil are PVE rewards just like they are in Bleakrock even though the zones have completely different rulesets!" Some people want fish - "How are fish tied to PVP, even though the Devs put fish in a PvPvE zone and all the ocean fish are right in front of AD'S home gate?" Some people want cosmetics. I listed three of them above. If you had a different example in mind, I'd be happy to discuss it. "I want to flex the Savior of Nirn title, so I should get the credit for closing Dark anchors in war-torn Cyrodiil even though I'm in a PVE-safe zone where there is no war and no enemy players to fight me like the Devs intended!"
That's not how that works. That's not how the Devs designed ESO and its PvPvE zones. We all know that, and asking for it to be otherwise is done out of the earnest desire to skip playing the game as the Devs intended because of genuine dislike for the intended content.
And so it turns out that, yes, this really was just another request to get the rewards of a PvPvE zone with none of the risk of PVP.
You want me to play the game a certain way. Why does it matter to you how I play? Why does it matter to you if I get Master Angler or some other accolade? How does it affect your gameplay if I get the skyshards in Cyrodiil?
This is a mentality I see a lot in these threads... Honestly, if someone wants something in the game and it's not going to affect how I play, I have NO objection. You want PvP copies of every zone? Sure, I won't use them, and I think they're a bad idea, but if you want that I see no reason to deny you because it doesn't affect me. I say I want a PvE Cyrodiil... and you say I shouldn't have that because... you don't want me to have it? It's not going to affect you because I'm not in the PvP version. You're losing nothing if they make a PvE version of the zone.
"You want me to play the game a certain way."
Look, I want everyone to play the way the Devs intended if they want the rewards. I did. Lots of players did and lots of players still do. Yet players asking for the rewards of PvPvE zones in PVE-only safety want the Devs to give them an easy out for their skyshards, their Master Angler title, and PvPvE cosmetics, which I notice you only addressed Emperor.
I'm against handing players an easy out to get the same rewards as the people who played the game as intended. To repeat myself, there's something ludicrous about "I want to flex the Savior of Nirn title, so I should get the credit for closing Dark anchors in war-torn Cyrodiil even though I'm in a PVE-safe zone where there is no war and no enemy players to fight me like the Devs intended!"
Maybe you are okay with that, but I am not.
"How does it impact you if players don't play the way the Devs intended?"
I suggest you think less in terms of how it impacts me personally, and think about how it impacts the Devs when players don't play ESO as is intended. Because I understand that you don't like it, but it's pretty clear that the Devs want most of their playerbase to have some basic experience in PVE and PVP, and strongly encourage players to try out PvPvE zones through events and other exclusive rewards. Like, oh, skyshards, leads, titles, and a few cosmetics that are exclusive to PvPvE zones. They balance PVE and PVP together - it only benefits the Devs to get most players to experience both. The minority who refuse to get out of their comfort zone are just that, a minority.
Once your question is rephrased in that light, I think it's pretty clear why the Devs have effectively said "No, you will play the game as intended if you want the rewards. Here, have another Midyear Mayhem. Here, have another Imperial City gear set." And so on.
(As for how it would impact ME, personally, I would have never set foot in PVP if I'd been offered an easy way out to Master Angler, and other rewards. As we know from the bugged random dungeon rewards where everyone wanted Random Normal Fungal Grotto 1, if you offer an easy way out and the same rewards, the vast majority of people will take the easy way out even if they otherwise would have gone to PvPvE Cyrodiil.)
"But seriously, are you just saying it because you don't want me to have nice things?"
I'm saying that if you want nice things, you need to play as the Devs intended. If you don't, you haven't earned the same rewards as everyone who did. If you dislike the content so much that you don't want to play as intended, then you will miss out on the rewards.
See also the examples I cited with housing furnishings and TG/DB event tickets.This isn't just a "I dislike PVP" thing where the PVPers want to force you to PVP. This is a design decision made by the Devs, and frankly, it shouldn't be surprising The Devs put rewards in different types of content to encourage most players to experience all the content the game has to offer. This is pretty basic game design. A minority of players will refuse to do certain types of content even for rewards they really want, but they are just that, a minority.
I don't expect to convince anyone to stop asking for the same rewards exclusive to PvPvE zones to be in the safe PVE-only zone they want. That's because most of those players believe that the Devs should not expect them to do content they dislike. They believe that the Devs owe them an easy out to get those same rewards because they should never have to play content they dislike. This attitude isn't just a PVP-disliking player thing; I think I listed enough examples to prove that this is an attitude shared by a minority of players across multiple playstyle niches.
No one wants to accept that the Devs DO expect them to play content they dislike if they want the same rewards as players who played it as intended, because that would require accepting that they can either suck it up and play content they dislike, or do without. We see again and again that they'd rather ask for that easy way out because they dislike the content that much.
The Devs, on the other hand, correctly continue to expect that the majority of the player base will try out different playstyles in order to get the rewards they want, and that the minority will either suck it up and play the game as intended, or will do without. It's to the benefit of ESO that they continue to do so, and they know it - just look at Antiquities and the coming Seals of Endeavors if you doubt that.
There's also a diminishment of achievement. Handouts to lazy players who don't want to do content diminishes the accomplishments of players who actually did the content to get the same rewards. It's selfish to request the rewards from a game mode a player refuses to engage with. And a player's sentiments towards pvp are wholly irrelevant. Pvp is a part of this game and if players want the rewards that are obtained through risk of pvp they need to get over themselves and do those things or move on from thinking they should get the rewards.
It doesn't diminish your achievement at all. If you defeated a million enemies to get that accolade, you still defeated a million enemies, even if someone else didn't... especially, even.
Also, I think it's a bit presumptuous to speak for the Devs. I feel pretty sure they're not going to care if this player or that get this accolade or that... but it's really for THEM to say. You might argue that they HAVE said... but we're not just players, we're CUSTOMERS. Happy customers continue to pay. Unhappy ones... might not.
The reality is that you don't want to have someone else stealing your bragging rights. It's not the Devs, it's players like yourself. I understand the feeling, really I do... but the reality is that it is affecting YOUR pride (that's the plural, I don't mean to single you out), and that's the objection. Personally, I don't think that's a valid reason to dismiss this idea.Exploring Tamriel since 1994.2 -
Indigogo✭✭✭✭✭Yeah ok this jumped the shark.
[snip]
Thanks for supporting me being able to buy Godslayer cause I want it but don't want to complete the content
[Edited to remove Rude Comments]Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on May 10, 2021 2:30PM7 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Morgha_Kul wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Morgha_Kul wrote: »Morgha_Kul wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Morgha_Kul wrote: »Ok... here's what I'm seeing.
PvP exists only in Cyrodiil (or duels in any zone). If PvP players want to expand that to having PvP exlusive copies of all zones... what would that do? It would spread out the already small PvP community over even MORE area... making it nearly impossible for PvP players to actually do any PvP. So, let's stop trying to push that notion.
PvP players don't want a PvE version of Cyrodiil... because it will take PvE players out of the PvP zone? What I see there is PvP players lamenting they don't have easy targets to kill that can't fight back. Remember, most PvE players will be there alone, and/or will not have optimized gear. More, they won't be as practiced as PvP players are maximizing dps or defenses. My characters average between 5-10k dps. How would I have ANY hope of competing with a PvP built character doing 100k+ dps? The answer is I wouldn't. Therefore, I must conclude that the only reason PvP players would object to PvE players having an option to NOT enter the PvP zone is that they would lose the risk free targets. Such players aren't really interested in actual PvP, just easy kills.
There's not enough PvE content in Cyrodiil? That's already been demonstrated to not be true, but let's suppose it IS, for the sake of argument. Having a sizable zone with nothing of substance in it means it's an area that can be ADDED to by development, after the fact. In a sense, that's kind of the whole point of an MMO... that the world of the game exist independently of content.
In short, I see no valid reason NOT to make a PvE verson of Cyrodiil.
Take out the rewards from that PVE version, or substitute different rewards, and I agree with you. Have your PVE-only zone.
Because you missed one objection: I want you to play the zone as intended if you want the rewards intended for that zone
If you want Master Angler, you should fish in PvPvE Cyrodiil, as the Devs intended.
If you want Tamriel Skyshard Hunter, you should get your skyshards from PvPvE Cyrodiil, as the Devs intended.
If you want the lead for the Malacath's Band of Brutality part, you should kill bosses in PvPvE Imperial City, as the Devs intended.
If you want event tickets for Midyear Mayhem, a event celebrating all things PVP, you darned well better be doing your dailies in the PvPvE Cyrodiil and Imperial City, as the Devs intended.
If that's something you can agree with, great!
If not, then it starts to look like just another request to get the rewards of a PvPvE zone with none of the risk of PVP.
I would agree with that, PvP rewards should be available only to PvP. However, there are some PvP-only rewards, notably cosmetic things (which are the bread and butter of RPers, who DON'T PvP), that should be made available to PvE players.
And most of these cosmetics are either PvP related, or they have alternatives that can be found in PvE.
Cosmetic things aren't PvP related insofar as they don't do anything to improve your performance. That said, there are undoubtedly SOME cosmetic things that should remain exclusive to PvP (such as the Emperor's outfit).Morgha_Kul wrote: »Therefore, I must conclude that the only reason PvP players would object to PvE players having an option to NOT enter the PvP zone is that they would lose the risk free targets. Such players aren't really interested in actual PvP, just easy kills.
Your conclusion is incorrect. I'm a healer in Cyrodiill (so I don't kill anyone) and I object to having a PVE version. Why? Because it diminishes the achievements of everyone else who was able to clear the PVE content in Cyrodill while putting themselves at risk of PVP.
Not wanting to do something is not the same as not being able to do something.
That sounds like sour grapes to me. You don't want someone else to have something because you didn't have it.VaranisArano wrote: »Morgha_Kul wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Morgha_Kul wrote: »Ok... here's what I'm seeing.
PvP exists only in Cyrodiil (or duels in any zone). If PvP players want to expand that to having PvP exlusive copies of all zones... what would that do? It would spread out the already small PvP community over even MORE area... making it nearly impossible for PvP players to actually do any PvP. So, let's stop trying to push that notion.
PvP players don't want a PvE version of Cyrodiil... because it will take PvE players out of the PvP zone? What I see there is PvP players lamenting they don't have easy targets to kill that can't fight back. Remember, most PvE players will be there alone, and/or will not have optimized gear. More, they won't be as practiced as PvP players are maximizing dps or defenses. My characters average between 5-10k dps. How would I have ANY hope of competing with a PvP built character doing 100k+ dps? The answer is I wouldn't. Therefore, I must conclude that the only reason PvP players would object to PvE players having an option to NOT enter the PvP zone is that they would lose the risk free targets. Such players aren't really interested in actual PvP, just easy kills.
There's not enough PvE content in Cyrodiil? That's already been demonstrated to not be true, but let's suppose it IS, for the sake of argument. Having a sizable zone with nothing of substance in it means it's an area that can be ADDED to by development, after the fact. In a sense, that's kind of the whole point of an MMO... that the world of the game exist independently of content.
In short, I see no valid reason NOT to make a PvE verson of Cyrodiil.
Take out the rewards from that PVE version, or substitute different rewards, and I agree with you. Have your PVE-only zone.
Because you missed one objection: I want you to play the zone as intended if you want the rewards intended for that zone
If you want Master Angler, you should fish in PvPvE Cyrodiil, as the Devs intended.
If you want Tamriel Skyshard Hunter, you should get your skyshards from PvPvE Cyrodiil, as the Devs intended.
If you want the lead for the Malacath's Band of Brutality part, you should kill bosses in PvPvE Imperial City, as the Devs intended.
If you want event tickets for Midyear Mayhem, a event celebrating all things PVP, you darned well better be doing your dailies in the PvPvE Cyrodiil and Imperial City, as the Devs intended.
If that's something you can agree with, great!
If not, then it starts to look like just another request to get the rewards of a PvPvE zone with none of the risk of PVP.
I would agree with that, PvP rewards should be available only to PvP. However, there are some PvP-only rewards, notably cosmetic things (which are the bread and butter of RPers, who DON'T PvP), that should be made available to PvE players.
The argument to that is always going to be "they are available to PvE players, they just have to do PvP." And it will never matter what type of play someone is into, the choice is forever going to be "do something you hate or suck it up and go without." That's what it all boils down to in the end.
That's correct, because that is how ESO and indeed most games are designed.
You play the game as intended, including doing content you dislike, in order to get the rewards. You don't say "I hate X content, can I get the same rewards for not doing the content I hate?"
Well, okay, some people on the forums DO say exactly that. See my example about housing enthusiasts asking why they have to do a trial in order to get the boat furnishing they want. Or law-abiding roleplayers complaining they couldn't get event tickets from the TG/DB events. This isn't just a PVP-hater thing, which only goes to show that it is how ESO is designed. What this is, is the understandable, but flawed desire of players to avoid content they dislike while still getting everything they want. A proverb about the having and eating of cakes to mind. Of course some players want it. Equally obviously, the Devs don't cater to it.
For example, let's look at a cosmetic rewards that are genuinely locked behind PVP: Legate Black dye, Battlegrounds Style pages, and the Emperor costume.
@Morgha_Kul, would you say that PVEers are unfairly deprived of those cosmetics? That they should have PVE-only opportunities to earn cosmetics that are locked behind doing a ton of Alliance War activities in a PvPvE zone, fighting in a ton of Battlegrounds, or being the top-scoring player of your faction when they capture the six ring keeps, respectively? "ZOS, I want to roleplay as the Emperor, so I need the costume, please give it to me!"
Would you then turn around and say that PVP-only players should be able to earn cosmetics that are locked behind PVE group content? I think that Captain Varanis Arano would look smashing running around Cyrodiil on the Sunspire Champion Senche-Lion while wearing the Godslayer title, even though my chances of completing Sunspire Godslayer and the rest of the Sunspire achievements is virtually nil, probably about as good as the chance of a PVP-hating player doing Battlegrounds long enough to get all the Style pages.
And if you say yes to both, then have you really grappled with why ZOS effectively says "No thanks, do the content if you want the rewards"?
It is strongly to ZOS' benefit to put rewards of different types, including cosmetics, behind different types of content in ESO. Most players will try an awful lot of different things for cosmetics and that's exactly what ZOS wants. Not every player will, but they are a minority, and the benefits of handing that minority a skip button doesn't outweigh the benefits of getting most players to try out different content.
It sucks to be in the minority, sittting there like "Whelp, I guess I'm never getting that Emperor costume because I hate PVP and there's no way I'm getting it." Because let's be honest, you aren't going to get it the correct way, and ZOS isn't going to hand it to you. (And to be fair, I'm not going to get it either, because I'm neither that good at PVP nor willing to lose sleep trying for the title, even though I'd love to roleplay as the Empress.)
The conclusion I'm coming to is that when people say "Sure, I'll accept no rewards" what they really mean is "Sure, I'll accept no PVP rewards, which doesn't include any of things I really want that can currently only be earned with the risk of PVP in a PvPvE zone."
Not pointing fingers at anyone in particular here. So much as paraphrasing stuff I've heard on similar threads in years past: Some people want the skyshards - "Oh, skyshards in Cyrodiil are PVE rewards just like they are in Bleakrock even though the zones have completely different rulesets!" Some people want fish - "How are fish tied to PVP, even though the Devs put fish in a PvPvE zone and all the ocean fish are right in front of AD'S home gate?" Some people want cosmetics. I listed three of them above. If you had a different example in mind, I'd be happy to discuss it. "I want to flex the Savior of Nirn title, so I should get the credit for closing Dark anchors in war-torn Cyrodiil even though I'm in a PVE-safe zone where there is no war and no enemy players to fight me like the Devs intended!"
That's not how that works. That's not how the Devs designed ESO and its PvPvE zones. We all know that, and asking for it to be otherwise is done out of the earnest desire to skip playing the game as the Devs intended because of genuine dislike for the intended content.
And so it turns out that, yes, this really was just another request to get the rewards of a PvPvE zone with none of the risk of PVP.
You want me to play the game a certain way. Why does it matter to you how I play? Why does it matter to you if I get Master Angler or some other accolade? How does it affect your gameplay if I get the skyshards in Cyrodiil?
This is a mentality I see a lot in these threads... Honestly, if someone wants something in the game and it's not going to affect how I play, I have NO objection. You want PvP copies of every zone? Sure, I won't use them, and I think they're a bad idea, but if you want that I see no reason to deny you because it doesn't affect me. I say I want a PvE Cyrodiil... and you say I shouldn't have that because... you don't want me to have it? It's not going to affect you because I'm not in the PvP version. You're losing nothing if they make a PvE version of the zone.
"You want me to play the game a certain way."
Look, I want everyone to play the way the Devs intended if they want the rewards. I did. Lots of players did and lots of players still do. Yet players asking for the rewards of PvPvE zones in PVE-only safety want the Devs to give them an easy out for their skyshards, their Master Angler title, and PvPvE cosmetics, which I notice you only addressed Emperor.
I'm against handing players an easy out to get the same rewards as the people who played the game as intended. To repeat myself, there's something ludicrous about "I want to flex the Savior of Nirn title, so I should get the credit for closing Dark anchors in war-torn Cyrodiil even though I'm in a PVE-safe zone where there is no war and no enemy players to fight me like the Devs intended!"
Maybe you are okay with that, but I am not.
"How does it impact you if players don't play the way the Devs intended?"
I suggest you think less in terms of how it impacts me personally, and think about how it impacts the Devs when players don't play ESO as is intended. Because I understand that you don't like it, but it's pretty clear that the Devs want most of their playerbase to have some basic experience in PVE and PVP, and strongly encourage players to try out PvPvE zones through events and other exclusive rewards. Like, oh, skyshards, leads, titles, and a few cosmetics that are exclusive to PvPvE zones. They balance PVE and PVP together - it only benefits the Devs to get most players to experience both. The minority who refuse to get out of their comfort zone are just that, a minority.
Once your question is rephrased in that light, I think it's pretty clear why the Devs have effectively said "No, you will play the game as intended if you want the rewards. Here, have another Midyear Mayhem. Here, have another Imperial City gear set." And so on.
(As for how it would impact ME, personally, I would have never set foot in PVP if I'd been offered an easy way out to Master Angler, and other rewards. As we know from the bugged random dungeon rewards where everyone wanted Random Normal Fungal Grotto 1, if you offer an easy way out and the same rewards, the vast majority of people will take the easy way out even if they otherwise would have gone to PvPvE Cyrodiil.)
"But seriously, are you just saying it because you don't want me to have nice things?"
I'm saying that if you want nice things, you need to play as the Devs intended. If you don't, you haven't earned the same rewards as everyone who did. If you dislike the content so much that you don't want to play as intended, then you will miss out on the rewards.
See also the examples I cited with housing furnishings and TG/DB event tickets.This isn't just a "I dislike PVP" thing where the PVPers want to force you to PVP. This is a design decision made by the Devs, and frankly, it shouldn't be surprising The Devs put rewards in different types of content to encourage most players to experience all the content the game has to offer. This is pretty basic game design. A minority of players will refuse to do certain types of content even for rewards they really want, but they are just that, a minority.
I don't expect to convince anyone to stop asking for the same rewards exclusive to PvPvE zones to be in the safe PVE-only zone they want. That's because most of those players believe that the Devs should not expect them to do content they dislike. They believe that the Devs owe them an easy out to get those same rewards because they should never have to play content they dislike. This attitude isn't just a PVP-disliking player thing; I think I listed enough examples to prove that this is an attitude shared by a minority of players across multiple playstyle niches.
No one wants to accept that the Devs DO expect them to play content they dislike if they want the same rewards as players who played it as intended, because that would require accepting that they can either suck it up and play content they dislike, or do without. We see again and again that they'd rather ask for that easy way out because they dislike the content that much.
The Devs, on the other hand, correctly continue to expect that the majority of the player base will try out different playstyles in order to get the rewards they want, and that the minority will either suck it up and play the game as intended, or will do without. It's to the benefit of ESO that they continue to do so, and they know it - just look at Antiquities and the coming Seals of Endeavors if you doubt that.
There's also a diminishment of achievement. Handouts to lazy players who don't want to do content diminishes the accomplishments of players who actually did the content to get the same rewards. It's selfish to request the rewards from a game mode a player refuses to engage with. And a player's sentiments towards pvp are wholly irrelevant. Pvp is a part of this game and if players want the rewards that are obtained through risk of pvp they need to get over themselves and do those things or move on from thinking they should get the rewards.
It doesn't diminish your achievement at all. If you defeated a million enemies to get that accolade, you still defeated a million enemies, even if someone else didn't... especially, even.
Also, I think it's a bit presumptuous to speak for the Devs. I feel pretty sure they're not going to care if this player or that get this accolade or that... but it's really for THEM to say. You might argue that they HAVE said... but we're not just players, we're CUSTOMERS. Happy customers continue to pay. Unhappy ones... might not.
The reality is that you don't want to have someone else stealing your bragging rights. It's not the Devs, it's players like yourself. I understand the feeling, really I do... but the reality is that it is affecting YOUR pride (that's the plural, I don't mean to single you out), and that's the objection. Personally, I don't think that's a valid reason to dismiss this idea.
I don't think its presumptuous to point out what the Devs have said and done. They want most of the playerbase to be well-rounded players who play a variety of content. That's explicity spelled out when recruiting for the Class Representative program, implicitly present every time they balance PVE and PVP together, and its crystal clear when you look at multi-content game systems like Events, Antiquities, and the upcoming Endeavors (If you need me to elaborate more than I already have on this point, I will, but its a wall of text and this post is already getting long.)
What you have not shown is that the Devs are in any way supportive of giving you the same rewards without doing the content as intended. Even in the case of VMA weapons being put in normal Maelstrom, the Vet content got better rewards. In the case of Vigor being moved to Alliance War Rank 1, this benefitted new PVPers even more than new PVEers, since it rebalanced below 50 PVP after ZOS started selling the Alliance War skill line. Titles? Skyshards? You don't get those unless you do the content as intended. In the past, ZOS strips those when they are gotten through exploits.
Its not pleasant, but the Devs are not supportive of players who want to only do their niche of favored content AND still want all the rewards from content they don't like. I've pointed that out in a variety of content, not just PvPvE. If you've got counterexamples, I'd like to hear them.
Nor does "But I'm an unhappy customer" have much to do with it. ESO is a highly monetized game, but a large part of that monetization relies on players wanting to avoid content.
Don't want to PVP for the Alliance War Skill Line? Earn it once, then pay for on the Crown Store!
Don't want to run the Grand Annual Psijic Order scavenger hunt? Do it once, then pay for it on the Crown Store!
Don't want to run for Cyrodiil Skyshards? Do it once, then pay for it on the Crown Store!
Don't want to farm Vet Dungeons for the fancy new motif? Buy it on the Guild Stores for a ton of gold or buy it on the Crown Store!
Don't want to participate in Midyear Mayhem? Buy your event tickets from the Crown Store!
Don't want to participate in group dungeons or heists/sacraments? Buy your event tickets from the Crown Store!
Is there harm done to ZOS when you ask for the same PvPvE rewards from a PvE-only safe zone, especially the same skyshards, on a safe PVE-only zone?
Absolutely. That's hitting them right in the pocketbook. You are asking them to give up one of the prime areas of monetization they have, where they have monetized the annoyance that many PVE-preferring players have at being forced to play PVP on alts. To be fair, ZOS also monetizes the annoyance of PVP-preferring players with stuff like the Undaunted Skill line, Psijic Order, and Skyshards. Its not like PVE-preferring players are treated unfairly here.
You can be an unhappy customer all you want. Not that any individual customer's unhappiness really matters to ZOS. Sales do, and just look at the amount of things they sell that revolve around players wanting to skip portions of the game. Do you really think they are going to give you a free, easy, safe PVE-only way to skip out on the monetization of PVP-avoidance? If you do, I expect your full support for a free, easy, safe way for PVP-preferring players to skip the monetization of PVE-avoidance. (Actually, I think this particular ship has long since left port, so rather than expecting you to support either side, I think its more useful to look at how the Devs have continued to monetize the game along these lines than to seriously expect them to reverse course for either PVP or PVE at this point.)
To be honest, I really doubt that the Accounting Department is quaking in their boots over the miniscule number of roleplayers who would be unhappy enough to quit spending money on ESO because they can't get the rewards of a PvPvE zone without the risk of PvPvE. Not when the Accounting Department makes sales from the people who are willing to pay to avoid going back, and the Devs want to encourage a lot of players to casually PVP during events like Midyear Mayhem.6 -
Morgha_Kul✭✭✭✭✭
✭I think we've drifted off topic here.
The original suggestion was a PvE version of Cyrodiil.
Someone asked if that would mean a Cyrodiil without the PvP rewards, and the consensus was that it would NOT include PvP rewards. I did suggest that some of the cosmetic things might be made available to PvE players, as appropriate. That's ALL. I never said all the PvP rewards should be available for PvE content.
But again, that's all kind of off topic. The original suggestion was for a PvE version of Cyrodiil, and I still say that would be good.Exploring Tamriel since 1994.1 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Morgha_Kul wrote: »I think we've drifted off topic here.
The original suggestion was a PvE version of Cyrodiil.
Someone asked if that would mean a Cyrodiil without the PvP rewards, and the consensus was that it would NOT include PvP rewards. I did suggest that some of the cosmetic things might be made available to PvE players, as appropriate. That's ALL. I never said all the PvP rewards should be available for PvE content.
But again, that's all kind of off topic. The original suggestion was for a PvE version of Cyrodiil, and I still say that would be good.
What cosmetic things do you want? I asked that before, and never got a straight answer. Let's get down to the specifics this time, okay?
You said at one point that Emperor should be a PVP exclusive. How about the other cosmetics that're locked behind PVP, like the Alliance Rank dyes or the Battlegrounds Style pages?
I don't consider titles as cosmetic - the Master Angler title, Savior of Nirn, etc. are awarded to players who have completed all of the base game zones, including PvPvE Cyrodiil. Do you want the titles, even though you wouldn't be earning them as the Devs intended?
I don't consider skyshards as cosmetic - not only are they tied into the Alliance War through their placement, but again, they were intended to be obtained from PvPvE Cyrodiil and Imperial City. Do you want the skyshards, even though you wouldn't be earning them as intended?
So what cosmetics from PvPvE content do you want? What do you consider appropriate to be made available to players who refuse to PvPvE as intended?
(One of the reasons I ask whether posters are okay with receiving NO rewards from the PvPvE zones in their PVE-only zone is because I want to know if this is a genuine "the exploration/questing is all I want" sort of suggestion or if it's really about asking for (some of) the rewards of a PvPvE zone with none of the risk.)5 -
Morgha_Kul✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'm uncertain, as I don't know what exactly is available. All I know is that there ARE cosmetic things (motifs, costumes, etc.) that can only be obtained through PvP. Where they are very particular to PvP (such as the Emperor costume), they should remain exclusive to PvP... others (if any) would need to be determined.
I consider things that don't affect actual gameplay to be cosmetic... that means titles too, though again, if they're definitively PvP titles (like Emperor), then they should remain so.
Skyshards are not cosmetic, but neither are they PvP items. They should appear in BOTH zones, but getting the shard in one would also mean you got the one in the other (that is, they're the same skyshard).
Now, I think that should also go the other way. Things that are not definitively exclusive to PvE (eg. Quest rewards) might be made available through PvP play. Again, this would mean costumes and disguises and other such things.
Personally, I don't care if there are any rewards in the zone at all, beyond things earned by doing delves, quests and the like... but that's me. I'm trying to think about what would be best for everyone.
I think what the devs intended is a matter of supposition, and neither you nor I can say one way or the other.Exploring Tamriel since 1994.0 -
Pauwer✭✭✭✭✭I also HATE doing dungeons. When i wanted the silly crimson set for pvp, it was HELL to get it. When i wanted the lead for the torc thingy from *puke*blackhearthaven*puke* it was TOTAL HELL. But hae to do 'em. [snip] Pvp is the most fun content in the game would be a shame for you to miss it.
[Edited to remove Baiting]Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on May 10, 2021 2:07PM7 -
kirgeo✭✭✭I'd bet 1000 USD that PvE Cyrodill will be a dead zone 2 weeks after release. There is nothing to do there. I don't want developers putting resource into remaking that zone PvE worthy when there are new zones that can be explored.3 -
Morgha_Kul✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'd bet 1000 USD that PvE Cyrodill will be a dead zone 2 weeks after release. There is nothing to do there. I don't want developers putting resource into remaking that zone PvE worthy when there are new zones that can be explored.
This is why I suggested the do something with it. My suggestion is that the make it a zone like Craglorn, overrun by daedra, post-war. Mostly group content (but not absurdly difficult, like the Harrowstorms and other such things of late). More on the level of Public Dungeons and such, with a few World Bosses sprinkled about (maybe even wandering all over the zone... maybe even interacting with one another).Exploring Tamriel since 1994.0 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Morgha_Kul wrote: »My suggestion is that the make it a zone like Craglorn, overrun by daedra, post-war. Mostly group content (but not absurdly difficult, like the Harrowstorms and other such things of late). More on the level of Public Dungeons and such, with a few World Bosses sprinkled about (maybe even wandering all over the zone... maybe even interacting with one another).
Because Craglorn was so successful...PCNA6 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Morgha_Kul wrote: »I'm uncertain, as I don't know what exactly is available. All I know is that there ARE cosmetic things (motifs, costumes, etc.) that can only be obtained through PvP. Where they are very particular to PvP (such as the Emperor costume), they should remain exclusive to PvP... others (if any) would need to be determined.
I consider things that don't affect actual gameplay to be cosmetic... that means titles too, though again, if they're definitively PvP titles (like Emperor), then they should remain so.
Skyshards are not cosmetic, but neither are they PvP items. They should appear in BOTH zones, but getting the shard in one would also mean you got the one in the other (that is, they're the same skyshard).
Now, I think that should also go the other way. Things that are not definitively exclusive to PvE (eg. Quest rewards) might be made available through PvP play. Again, this would mean costumes and disguises and other such things.
Personally, I don't care if there are any rewards in the zone at all, beyond things earned by doing delves, quests and the like... but that's me. I'm trying to think about what would be best for everyone.
I think what the devs intended is a matter of supposition, and neither you nor I can say one way or the other.
[snip] Perhaps I'm mistaken, but it seems to me that you only know that PVPers get stuff that you want without having to PVP. Maybe that's silly of me, so sorry if I'm seeing something you didn't intend.
I really do think it would help if you learned more about PvPvE zones work and how the Devs tied the objectives like Skyshards into the PvPvE nature of the zone. I am happy to elaborate on this point for you if you need more details, because I feel like a broken record saying stuff that may be obvious to a PVPer, but may not be obvious to a PVE-only player.
[snip]
1. Cyrodiil is a PvPvE zone that is designed for Realm v Realm v Realm combat in the vein of Dark Age of Camelot. It has a variety of PvPvE objectives, and has since launch. When those objectives have changed, it has usually been to tie those objectives closer to the PvP nature of the zone.. It is a base game zone, always has been, and thus PvPvE Cyrodiik is included in achievements that require ALL of the base game zones like Master Angler.
A. Three Towns, with their quests, are PVP objectives. They are transit points and score points, and you have to capture the town before you can quest there. The other two "neutral" towns are near scroll running routes. Town quests often involve going to a delve in their questline. The Devs expected players to go there and fight. The quests are required for Tamriel Hero title, which included all the quest achievements in the base game. Towns actually used to be neutral - ZOS changed three of them to be claimable by the alliances. Recently, ZOS made them transit points as well, which makes them much more important to the alliances. The Devs have given players even more incentive to fight.
B. Cyrodiil delve bosses grant an AP buff, so the Devs expected players to go there and fight. See also the town quest lines, which funnel players to delves where they come into conflict with questers and skyshard hunters. The Devs expected players to fight.
C. Skyshards are scattered deep throughout enemy territory, requiring players to traverse guarded chokepoints or take back paths to reach. Two Skyshards are behind the enemy gates. In order to reach those skyshards, the faction must capture at least two keeps, then fight their way through the scroll gate as the defending faction tries to protect their scroll. The Devs intended players to go there and fight, though fast stealthy players have a good shot at getting there unseen once the gates are open.
D. Fishing spots are scattered throughout enemy territory, requiring players to traverse guarded chokepoints or take back paths to reach. DC players in particular end up on the far side of the map from their home keeps, deep in AD or EP territory. These are required for the Master Angler title, for getting all the fish from every base game zone.
E. Cyrodiil dolmens have a chance to drop Coldfire siege weapons, which are some of the most deadly weapons available and which are only otherwise handed out during Midyear Mayhem. That's excellent incentive to fight at dolmens, which are necessary for the Savior of Nirn title. The Devs expected players to fight.
F. Alliance Rank dyes are cosmetics obtained by rising in the ranks by earning AP. LOTS of AP. Millions of AP. It's possible to do this purely by repairing walls, but even that isn't 100% safe.
G. Alliance War outfits like the Knight of the Circle style pages or the Arena Gladiator outfit can be bought for gold by PVE-only players. Expect it to cost a premium, because those require a ton of dailies like "Capture 3 Keeps" or "Kill 40 players." The Motifs are bought with AP, but they aren't bound, so go take yourself to your favorite guild store and buy them with gold!
All of the "cosmetic" rewards of Cyrodiil are intimately tied to the PvPvE nature of the zone.
[snip]
2. As for Imperial City, I think a brief review of some of ZOS' own statements will suffice.
A. From the Launch Details: https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/25357
"While exploring and fighting your way through the Imperial City, be prepared to face not only Molag Bal's forces, but also enemy players from the opposing alliances. Rewards that are unmatched in power await those who are brave enough to enter the Imperial City and claim them."
B. In ESO's The Basics Guide, they lay out the many activities one can do in Imperial City, including those which granted titles and achievements.
"The Imperial City offers many activities you can participate in. Whether you're interested in strictly PVE, PVP, or a little of both, here are some of the ways you might choose to spend your time in the Imperial City: Battle enemy-alliance players and Molag Bal's forces, including the Xivkyn, in the Imperial Sewers and six Imperial Districts...Enter the Imperial Sewers and hunt Trove Scamps for gold and crafting supplies, and Cunning Scamps for Tel Var Stones...Play through the Imperial City storyline, started by the Drake of Blades."
https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/25365
Just to be crystal clear, the Drake of Blades main quest requires you to quest in the Districts. The skyshards are in the Districts. The fish are in the Districts. The bosses are in the Districts. And here is ZOS saying that you can battle enemy players in the Districts. There is even an achievement for killing 100 players in the same Arena as a multistage boss fight in the Main Quest, and the fight is not instanced. That's right. The Devs incentivized killing questers who're distracted fighting a pretty hard boss. The Devs absolutely expected players to fight!
All of the "cosmetic" rewards of the Imperial City that are locked behind PvPvE content are intimately tied to the PvPvE nature of the zone.
[snip]
3. I'm really hoping that I don't need to elaborate on the obviously PVP-only nature of Battlegrounds, and that the bound style pages and titles obtained through Battlegrounds are all obviously intended to be PVP-exclusives, right? (I mean, there is a PVE-only way to get some of them, but it involves being a jerk who sits up on the spawn platform and expects their teammates to carry them to victory. I do not recommend that method to anyone.)
Finally, please do not dismiss the above with "Oh, that's presumptuous supposition about what what Devs expect." The above is how Cyrodiil functions by drawing players around the map to different objectives in ways that cause conflict. The Devs designed it that way! The above is how Imperial City is designed as a PvPvE area, in the Devs' own words. BGs is, uh, well, you gotta PVP if you want the stuff from BGs.
I don't really expect this to change your mind. You are going to want what you want, and want to avoid PVP when you can. But hopefully you learn a little more about why I'm so insistent that the PvPvE rewards of Cyrodiil and Imperial City are in fact distinct from any safe PVE-only version of the zone. You really wouldn't be earning the same achievements or titles because you would not be playing as the Devs designed those zones. You are asking for the same rewards with none of the risk that the PvPvE zones are designed to have.
[Edited to remove Baiting]Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on May 10, 2021 2:24PM12 -
kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Morgha_Kul wrote: »I'd bet 1000 USD that PvE Cyrodill will be a dead zone 2 weeks after release. There is nothing to do there. I don't want developers putting resource into remaking that zone PvE worthy when there are new zones that can be explored.
This is why I suggested the do something with it. My suggestion is that the make it a zone like Craglorn, overrun by daedra, post-war. Mostly group content (but not absurdly difficult, like the Harrowstorms and other such things of late). More on the level of Public Dungeons and such, with a few World Bosses sprinkled about (maybe even wandering all over the zone... maybe even interacting with one another).
Would make more sense to create a new zone.and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."1 -
Indigogo✭✭✭✭✭Kudos Varanis. Your contributions have been so well worded, patient and polite and I appreciate all the effort you've put in.
If someone wants a pve zone that has the looks of cyro but none of the same content and achievements, have at it. You have my full support.
But that's not what's being asked for here if we want to be bluntly honest.
Does it help to look at many of the questing cosmetics and titles, not as pve achievements, but game achievements? For exposing yourself to all aspects of ESO. Free your mind of thinking, for example, every skyshard means pve.
Maybe it becomes easier to accept there are things tied up in cyro.
4 -
Morgha_Kul✭✭✭✭✭
✭VaranisArano wrote: »Morgha_Kul wrote: »I'm uncertain, as I don't know what exactly is available. All I know is that there ARE cosmetic things (motifs, costumes, etc.) that can only be obtained through PvP. Where they are very particular to PvP (such as the Emperor costume), they should remain exclusive to PvP... others (if any) would need to be determined.
I consider things that don't affect actual gameplay to be cosmetic... that means titles too, though again, if they're definitively PvP titles (like Emperor), then they should remain so.
Skyshards are not cosmetic, but neither are they PvP items. They should appear in BOTH zones, but getting the shard in one would also mean you got the one in the other (that is, they're the same skyshard).
Now, I think that should also go the other way. Things that are not definitively exclusive to PvE (eg. Quest rewards) might be made available through PvP play. Again, this would mean costumes and disguises and other such things.
Personally, I don't care if there are any rewards in the zone at all, beyond things earned by doing delves, quests and the like... but that's me. I'm trying to think about what would be best for everyone.
I think what the devs intended is a matter of supposition, and neither you nor I can say one way or the other.
First off, I find it a little annoying that you don't even know enough about the cosmetic rewards that are only available from PvPvE zones to know what you want. Perhaps I'm mistaken, but it seems to me that you only know that PVPers get stuff that you want without having to PVP. Maybe that's silly of me, so sorry if I'm seeing something you didn't intend.
I really do think it would help if you learned more about PvPvE zones work and how the Devs tied the objectives like Skyshards into the PvPvE nature of the zone. I am happy to elaborate on this point for you if you need more details, because I feel like a broken record saying stuff that may be obvious to a PVPer, but may not be obvious to a PVE-only player.
But I will be honest. I do not care to explain it to you further if the only answer I get is that I'm being presumptuous and making suppositions when I'm literally describing how Cyrodiil and Imperial City function. If that is your response, I'm done.
1. Cyrodiil is a PvPvE zone that is designed for Realm v Realm v Realm combat in the vein of Dark Age of Camelot. It has a variety of PvPvE objectives, and has since launch. When those objectives have changed, it has usually been to tie those objectives closer to the PvP nature of the zone.. It is a base game zone, always has been, and thus PvPvE Cyrodiik is included in achievements that require ALL of the base game zones like Master Angler.
A. Three Towns, with their quests, are PVP objectives. They are transit points and score points, and you have to capture the town before you can quest there. The other two "neutral" towns are near scroll running routes. Town quests often involve going to a delve in their questline. The Devs expected players to go there and fight. The quests are required for Tamriel Hero title, which included all the quest achievements in the base game. Towns actually used to be neutral - ZOS changed three of them to be claimable by the alliances. Recently, ZOS made them transit points as well, which makes them much more important to the alliances. The Devs have given players even more incentive to fight.
B. Cyrodiil delve bosses grant an AP buff, so the Devs expected players to go there and fight. See also the town quest lines, which funnel players to delves where they come into conflict with questers and skyshard hunters. The Devs expected players to fight.
C. Skyshards are scattered deep throughout enemy territory, requiring players to traverse guarded chokepoints or take back paths to reach. Two Skyshards are behind the enemy gates. In order to reach those skyshards, the faction must capture at least two keeps, then fight their way through the scroll gate as the defending faction tries to protect their scroll. The Devs intended players to go there and fight, though fast stealthy players have a good shot at getting there unseen once the gates are open.
D. Fishing spots are scattered throughout enemy territory, requiring players to traverse guarded chokepoints or take back paths to reach. DC players in particular end up on the far side of the map from their home keeps, deep in AD or EP territory. These are required for the Master Angler title, for getting all the fish from every base game zone.
E. Cyrodiil dolmens have a chance to drop Coldfire siege weapons, which are some of the most deadly weapons available and which are only otherwise handed out during Midyear Mayhem. That's excellent incentive to fight at dolmens, which are necessary for the Savior of Nirn title. The Devs expected players to fight.
F. Alliance Rank dyes are cosmetics obtained by rising in the ranks by earning AP. LOTS of AP. Millions of AP. It's possible to do this purely by repairing walls, but even that isn't 100% safe.
G. Alliance War outfits like the Knight of the Circle style pages or the Arena Gladiator outfit can be bought for gold by PVE-only players. Expect it to cost a premium, because those require a ton of dailies like "Capture 3 Keeps" or "Kill 40 players." The Motifs are bought with AP, but they aren't bound, so go take yourself to your favorite guild store and buy them with gold!
All of the "cosmetic" rewards of Cyrodiil are intimately tied to the PvPvE nature of the zone.
If you want to remove the PvPvE nature of the zone, you don't deserve the same rewards.
2. As for Imperial City, I think a brief review of some of ZOS' own statements will suffice.
A. From the Launch Details: https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/25357
"While exploring and fighting your way through the Imperial City, be prepared to face not only Molag Bal's forces, but also enemy players from the opposing alliances. Rewards that are unmatched in power await those who are brave enough to enter the Imperial City and claim them."
B. In ESO's The Basics Guide, they lay out the many activities one can do in Imperial City, including those which granted titles and achievements.
"The Imperial City offers many activities you can participate in. Whether you're interested in strictly PVE, PVP, or a little of both, here are some of the ways you might choose to spend your time in the Imperial City: Battle enemy-alliance players and Molag Bal's forces, including the Xivkyn, in the Imperial Sewers and six Imperial Districts...Enter the Imperial Sewers and hunt Trove Scamps for gold and crafting supplies, and Cunning Scamps for Tel Var Stones...Play through the Imperial City storyline, started by the Drake of Blades."
https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/25365
Just to be crystal clear, the Drake of Blades main quest requires you to quest in the Districts. The skyshards are in the Districts. The fish are in the Districts. The bosses are in the Districts. And here is ZOS saying that you can battle enemy players in the Districts. There is even an achievement for killing 100 players in the same Arena as a multistage boss fight in the Main Quest, and the fight is not instanced. That's right. The Devs incentivized killing questers who're distracted fighting a pretty hard boss. The Devs absolutely expected players to fight!
All of the "cosmetic" rewards of the Imperial City that are locked behind PvPvE content are intimately tied to the PvPvE nature of the zone.
If you want to remove the PvPvE nature of the zone, you don't deserve the same rewards.
3. I'm really hoping that I don't need to elaborate on the obviously PVP-only nature of Battlegrounds, and that the bound style pages and titles obtained through Battlegrounds are all obviously intended to be PVP-exclusives, right? (I mean, there is a PVE-only way to get some of them, but it involves being a jerk who sits up on the spawn platform and expects their teammates to carry them to victory. I do not recommend that method to anyone.)
Finally, please do not dismiss the above with "Oh, that's presumptuous supposition about what what Devs expect." The above is how Cyrodiil functions by drawing players around the map to different objectives in ways that cause conflict. The Devs designed it that way! The above is how Imperial City is designed as a PvPvE area, in the Devs' own words. BGs is, uh, well, you gotta PVP if you want the stuff from BGs.
I don't really expect this to change your mind. You are going to want what you want, and want to avoid PVP when you can. But hopefully you learn a little more about why I'm so insistent that the PvPvE rewards of Cyrodiil and Imperial City are in fact distinct from any safe PVE-only version of the zone. You really wouldn't be earning the same achievements or titles because you would not be playing as the Devs designed those zones. You are asking for the same rewards with none of the risk that the PvPvE zones are designed to have.
I'm on my way to bed, so I haven't read your post in detail... but I will say I appreciate your candor. Let me say that my comments are less for my sake than for the sake of the community in general. I'm content to miss out on some of the things... I've seen motifs and costumes, but I've never paid much attention to them because I know I can't get them.
I'll read your post in the morning, and perhaps elaborate further.
o7Exploring Tamriel since 1994.0 -
StamPlar_1976✭✭✭✭No. Never. Let the horse stYVaranisArano wrote: »Morgha_Kul wrote: »I'm uncertain, as I don't know what exactly is available. All I know is that there ARE cosmetic things (motifs, costumes, etc.) that can only be obtained through PvP. Where they are very particular to PvP (such as the Emperor costume), they should remain exclusive to PvP... others (if any) would need to be determined.
I consider things that don't affect actual gameplay to be cosmetic... that means titles too, though again, if they're definitively PvP titles (like Emperor), then they should remain so.
Skyshards are not cosmetic, but neither are they PvP items. They should appear in BOTH zones, but getting the shard in one would also mean you got the one in the other (that is, they're the same skyshard).
Now, I think that should also go the other way. Things that are not definitively exclusive to PvE (eg. Quest rewards) might be made available through PvP play. Again, this would mean costumes and disguises and other such things.
Personally, I don't care if there are any rewards in the zone at all, beyond things earned by doing delves, quests and the like... but that's me. I'm trying to think about what would be best for everyone.
I think what the devs intended is a matter of supposition, and neither you nor I can say one way or the other.
First off, I find it a little annoying that you don't even know enough about the cosmetic rewards that are only available from PvPvE zones to know what you want. Perhaps I'm mistaken, but it seems to me that you only know that PVPers get stuff that you want without having to PVP. Maybe that's silly of me, so sorry if I'm seeing something you didn't intend.
I really do think it would help if you learned more about PvPvE zones work and how the Devs tied the objectives like Skyshards into the PvPvE nature of the zone. I am happy to elaborate on this point for you if you need more details, because I feel like a broken record saying stuff that may be obvious to a PVPer, but may not be obvious to a PVE-only player.
But I will be honest. I do not care to explain it to you further if the only answer I get is that I'm being presumptuous and making suppositions when I'm literally describing how Cyrodiil and Imperial City function. If that is your response, I'm done.
1. Cyrodiil is a PvPvE zone that is designed for Realm v Realm v Realm combat in the vein of Dark Age of Camelot. It has a variety of PvPvE objectives, and has since launch. When those objectives have changed, it has usually been to tie those objectives closer to the PvP nature of the zone.. It is a base game zone, always has been, and thus PvPvE Cyrodiik is included in achievements that require ALL of the base game zones like Master Angler.
A. Three Towns, with their quests, are PVP objectives. They are transit points and score points, and you have to capture the town before you can quest there. The other two "neutral" towns are near scroll running routes. Town quests often involve going to a delve in their questline. The Devs expected players to go there and fight. The quests are required for Tamriel Hero title, which included all the quest achievements in the base game. Towns actually used to be neutral - ZOS changed three of them to be claimable by the alliances. Recently, ZOS made them transit points as well, which makes them much more important to the alliances. The Devs have given players even more incentive to fight.
B. Cyrodiil delve bosses grant an AP buff, so the Devs expected players to go there and fight. See also the town quest lines, which funnel players to delves where they come into conflict with questers and skyshard hunters. The Devs expected players to fight.
C. Skyshards are scattered deep throughout enemy territory, requiring players to traverse guarded chokepoints or take back paths to reach. Two Skyshards are behind the enemy gates. In order to reach those skyshards, the faction must capture at least two keeps, then fight their way through the scroll gate as the defending faction tries to protect their scroll. The Devs intended players to go there and fight, though fast stealthy players have a good shot at getting there unseen once the gates are open.
D. Fishing spots are scattered throughout enemy territory, requiring players to traverse guarded chokepoints or take back paths to reach. DC players in particular end up on the far side of the map from their home keeps, deep in AD or EP territory. These are required for the Master Angler title, for getting all the fish from every base game zone.
E. Cyrodiil dolmens have a chance to drop Coldfire siege weapons, which are some of the most deadly weapons available and which are only otherwise handed out during Midyear Mayhem. That's excellent incentive to fight at dolmens, which are necessary for the Savior of Nirn title. The Devs expected players to fight.
F. Alliance Rank dyes are cosmetics obtained by rising in the ranks by earning AP. LOTS of AP. Millions of AP. It's possible to do this purely by repairing walls, but even that isn't 100% safe.
G. Alliance War outfits like the Knight of the Circle style pages or the Arena Gladiator outfit can be bought for gold by PVE-only players. Expect it to cost a premium, because those require a ton of dailies like "Capture 3 Keeps" or "Kill 40 players." The Motifs are bought with AP, but they aren't bound, so go take yourself to your favorite guild store and buy them with gold!
All of the "cosmetic" rewards of Cyrodiil are intimately tied to the PvPvE nature of the zone.
If you want to remove the PvPvE nature of the zone, you don't deserve the same rewards.
2. As for Imperial City, I think a brief review of some of ZOS' own statements will suffice.
A. From the Launch Details: https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/25357
"While exploring and fighting your way through the Imperial City, be prepared to face not only Molag Bal's forces, but also enemy players from the opposing alliances. Rewards that are unmatched in power await those who are brave enough to enter the Imperial City and claim them."
B. In ESO's The Basics Guide, they lay out the many activities one can do in Imperial City, including those which granted titles and achievements.
"The Imperial City offers many activities you can participate in. Whether you're interested in strictly PVE, PVP, or a little of both, here are some of the ways you might choose to spend your time in the Imperial City: Battle enemy-alliance players and Molag Bal's forces, including the Xivkyn, in the Imperial Sewers and six Imperial Districts...Enter the Imperial Sewers and hunt Trove Scamps for gold and crafting supplies, and Cunning Scamps for Tel Var Stones...Play through the Imperial City storyline, started by the Drake of Blades."
https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/25365
Just to be crystal clear, the Drake of Blades main quest requires you to quest in the Districts. The skyshards are in the Districts. The fish are in the Districts. The bosses are in the Districts. And here is ZOS saying that you can battle enemy players in the Districts. There is even an achievement for killing 100 players in the same Arena as a multistage boss fight in the Main Quest, and the fight is not instanced. That's right. The Devs incentivized killing questers who're distracted fighting a pretty hard boss. The Devs absolutely expected players to fight!
All of the "cosmetic" rewards of the Imperial City that are locked behind PvPvE content are intimately tied to the PvPvE nature of the zone.
If you want to remove the PvPvE nature of the zone, you don't deserve the same rewards.
3. I'm really hoping that I don't need to elaborate on the obviously PVP-only nature of Battlegrounds, and that the bound style pages and titles obtained through Battlegrounds are all obviously intended to be PVP-exclusives, right? (I mean, there is a PVE-only way to get some of them, but it involves being a jerk who sits up on the spawn platform and expects their teammates to carry them to victory. I do not recommend that method to anyone.)
Finally, please do not dismiss the above with "Oh, that's presumptuous supposition about what what Devs expect." The above is how Cyrodiil functions by drawing players around the map to different objectives in ways that cause conflict. The Devs designed it that way! The above is how Imperial City is designed as a PvPvE area, in the Devs' own words. BGs is, uh, well, you gotta PVP if you want the stuff from BGs.
I don't really expect this to change your mind. You are going to want what you want, and want to avoid PVP when you can. But hopefully you learn a little more about why I'm so insistent that the PvPvE rewards of Cyrodiil and Imperial City are in fact distinct from any safe PVE-only version of the zone. You really wouldn't be earning the same achievements or titles because you would not be playing as the Devs designed those zones. You are asking for the same rewards with none of the risk that the PvPvE zones are designed to have.
Summarized everything that needed to be said. [snip]
[Edited to remove Non-Constructive Content]Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on May 11, 2021 10:05AM5 -
Hydra9268✭✭✭For the record, here's what was requested by me numerous times since I am the one who started the discussion.
1. I want PVE Cyrodiil to be another instance of PVP Cyrodiil. Given the size of the map, the devs should halve it into eastern and western zones, northern and southern zones, or perhaps uniquely diagonally. This division gives the devs time to flesh out the zone and add more content like trials, dungeons, major city hubs (i.e., Cloud Ruler Temple or Bruma in the north and Bravil or Cheydinhal in the east or west).
2. I want PVE Cyrodiil only if it happens with a new expansion that tells an "after the war" story, with a secondary objective. Something like Jyggalag has new powers over time, and no one knows why, how. For what purpose. Jyggalag visited Kvatch in Gold Coast and opened a stable time portal to a revamped PVP Cyrodiil with new features that would make the PVP player base happy. Perhaps Jyggalag's doorway leads to an alternate reality of the alliance war. I would NEVER want the devs to just copy Cyrodiil and leave it untouched but remove PVP. That would be boring.
3. I don't want PVP rewards in PVE Cyrodiil. Any competitive stuff, including the currencies, should remain PVP-only and NOT appear in the PVE Cyrodiil. This move ensures players who want those rewards have to do PVP content. However, my request does not extend to things like skyshards, delve completions, fishing spots, and any other PVE content. Those would appear in both the PVP and PVE versions.
Edited by Hydra9268 on May 10, 2021 8:00AM2 -
Iccotak✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »Morgha_Kul wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Morgha_Kul wrote: »Ok... here's what I'm seeing.
PvP exists only in Cyrodiil (or duels in any zone). If PvP players want to expand that to having PvP exlusive copies of all zones... what would that do? It would spread out the already small PvP community over even MORE area... making it nearly impossible for PvP players to actually do any PvP. So, let's stop trying to push that notion.
PvP players don't want a PvE version of Cyrodiil... because it will take PvE players out of the PvP zone? What I see there is PvP players lamenting they don't have easy targets to kill that can't fight back. Remember, most PvE players will be there alone, and/or will not have optimized gear. More, they won't be as practiced as PvP players are maximizing dps or defenses. My characters average between 5-10k dps. How would I have ANY hope of competing with a PvP built character doing 100k+ dps? The answer is I wouldn't. Therefore, I must conclude that the only reason PvP players would object to PvE players having an option to NOT enter the PvP zone is that they would lose the risk free targets. Such players aren't really interested in actual PvP, just easy kills.
There's not enough PvE content in Cyrodiil? That's already been demonstrated to not be true, but let's suppose it IS, for the sake of argument. Having a sizable zone with nothing of substance in it means it's an area that can be ADDED to by development, after the fact. In a sense, that's kind of the whole point of an MMO... that the world of the game exist independently of content.
In short, I see no valid reason NOT to make a PvE verson of Cyrodiil.
Take out the rewards from that PVE version, or substitute different rewards, and I agree with you. Have your PVE-only zone.
Because you missed one objection: I want you to play the zone as intended if you want the rewards intended for that zone
If you want Master Angler, you should fish in PvPvE Cyrodiil, as the Devs intended.
If you want Tamriel Skyshard Hunter, you should get your skyshards from PvPvE Cyrodiil, as the Devs intended.
If you want the lead for the Malacath's Band of Brutality part, you should kill bosses in PvPvE Imperial City, as the Devs intended.
If you want event tickets for Midyear Mayhem, a event celebrating all things PVP, you darned well better be doing your dailies in the PvPvE Cyrodiil and Imperial City, as the Devs intended.
If that's something you can agree with, great!
If not, then it starts to look like just another request to get the rewards of a PvPvE zone with none of the risk of PVP.
I would agree with that, PvP rewards should be available only to PvP. However, there are some PvP-only rewards, notably cosmetic things (which are the bread and butter of RPers, who DON'T PvP), that should be made available to PvE players.
The argument to that is always going to be "they are available to PvE players, they just have to do PvP." And it will never matter what type of play someone is into, the choice is forever going to be "do something you hate or suck it up and go without." That's what it all boils down to in the end.
That's correct, because that is how ESO and indeed most games are designed.
You play the game as intended, including doing content you dislike, in order to get the rewards. You don't say "I hate X content, can I get the same rewards for not doing the content I hate?"
WOW's player base said the same things about people constantly asking for vanilla/classic on their forums. Requests for vanilla were met with the same cliched responses: "Blizzard's time is better spent elsewhere (e.g., on my thing that I like more)," "vanilla is dead," "it'll fragment the user base," "play the current game!," "people will play for two months then drop their subscription and WOW will die." None of those things happened. Classic ended up becoming a monster hit for Blizzard and made the game more successful.
I'm saying cloning Cyrodiil into a PVE zone with dungeons, trials (sure, why not!), side quests, and an all-new storyline that features the Lord of Order, Jyggalag, who has obtained the ability to control time (the good bet Hermaeus Mora has something to do with it, although the reasons remain unknown). The story could reach a climatic conclusion on a new ESO zone, The Shivering Isles (Jyggalag's plane of Oblivion). Meanwhile, Jyggalag has visited Kvatch and set up a stable time portal that teleports players to a PVP Cyrodiil revamped with all new PVP challenges (there's a story that ties the time portal with his new power).
Sounds like an idea for an expansion. which btw could only be a chunk of cyrodilVaranisArano wrote: »Morgha_Kul wrote: »Morgha_Kul wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Morgha_Kul wrote: »Ok... here's what I'm seeing.
PvP exists only in Cyrodiil (or duels in any zone). If PvP players want to expand that to having PvP exlusive copies of all zones... what would that do? It would spread out the already small PvP community over even MORE area... making it nearly impossible for PvP players to actually do any PvP. So, let's stop trying to push that notion.
PvP players don't want a PvE version of Cyrodiil... because it will take PvE players out of the PvP zone? What I see there is PvP players lamenting they don't have easy targets to kill that can't fight back. Remember, most PvE players will be there alone, and/or will not have optimized gear. More, they won't be as practiced as PvP players are maximizing dps or defenses. My characters average between 5-10k dps. How would I have ANY hope of competing with a PvP built character doing 100k+ dps? The answer is I wouldn't. Therefore, I must conclude that the only reason PvP players would object to PvE players having an option to NOT enter the PvP zone is that they would lose the risk free targets. Such players aren't really interested in actual PvP, just easy kills.
There's not enough PvE content in Cyrodiil? That's already been demonstrated to not be true, but let's suppose it IS, for the sake of argument. Having a sizable zone with nothing of substance in it means it's an area that can be ADDED to by development, after the fact. In a sense, that's kind of the whole point of an MMO... that the world of the game exist independently of content.
In short, I see no valid reason NOT to make a PvE verson of Cyrodiil.
Take out the rewards from that PVE version, or substitute different rewards, and I agree with you. Have your PVE-only zone.
Because you missed one objection: I want you to play the zone as intended if you want the rewards intended for that zone
If you want Master Angler, you should fish in PvPvE Cyrodiil, as the Devs intended.
If you want Tamriel Skyshard Hunter, you should get your skyshards from PvPvE Cyrodiil, as the Devs intended.
If you want the lead for the Malacath's Band of Brutality part, you should kill bosses in PvPvE Imperial City, as the Devs intended.
If you want event tickets for Midyear Mayhem, a event celebrating all things PVP, you darned well better be doing your dailies in the PvPvE Cyrodiil and Imperial City, as the Devs intended.
If that's something you can agree with, great!
If not, then it starts to look like just another request to get the rewards of a PvPvE zone with none of the risk of PVP.
I would agree with that, PvP rewards should be available only to PvP. However, there are some PvP-only rewards, notably cosmetic things (which are the bread and butter of RPers, who DON'T PvP), that should be made available to PvE players.
And most of these cosmetics are either PvP related, or they have alternatives that can be found in PvE.
Cosmetic things aren't PvP related insofar as they don't do anything to improve your performance. That said, there are undoubtedly SOME cosmetic things that should remain exclusive to PvP (such as the Emperor's outfit).Morgha_Kul wrote: »Therefore, I must conclude that the only reason PvP players would object to PvE players having an option to NOT enter the PvP zone is that they would lose the risk free targets. Such players aren't really interested in actual PvP, just easy kills.
Your conclusion is incorrect. I'm a healer in Cyrodiill (so I don't kill anyone) and I object to having a PVE version. Why? Because it diminishes the achievements of everyone else who was able to clear the PVE content in Cyrodill while putting themselves at risk of PVP.
Not wanting to do something is not the same as not being able to do something.
That sounds like sour grapes to me. You don't want someone else to have something because you didn't have it.VaranisArano wrote: »Morgha_Kul wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Morgha_Kul wrote: »Ok... here's what I'm seeing.
PvP exists only in Cyrodiil (or duels in any zone). If PvP players want to expand that to having PvP exlusive copies of all zones... what would that do? It would spread out the already small PvP community over even MORE area... making it nearly impossible for PvP players to actually do any PvP. So, let's stop trying to push that notion.
PvP players don't want a PvE version of Cyrodiil... because it will take PvE players out of the PvP zone? What I see there is PvP players lamenting they don't have easy targets to kill that can't fight back. Remember, most PvE players will be there alone, and/or will not have optimized gear. More, they won't be as practiced as PvP players are maximizing dps or defenses. My characters average between 5-10k dps. How would I have ANY hope of competing with a PvP built character doing 100k+ dps? The answer is I wouldn't. Therefore, I must conclude that the only reason PvP players would object to PvE players having an option to NOT enter the PvP zone is that they would lose the risk free targets. Such players aren't really interested in actual PvP, just easy kills.
There's not enough PvE content in Cyrodiil? That's already been demonstrated to not be true, but let's suppose it IS, for the sake of argument. Having a sizable zone with nothing of substance in it means it's an area that can be ADDED to by development, after the fact. In a sense, that's kind of the whole point of an MMO... that the world of the game exist independently of content.
In short, I see no valid reason NOT to make a PvE verson of Cyrodiil.
Take out the rewards from that PVE version, or substitute different rewards, and I agree with you. Have your PVE-only zone.
Because you missed one objection: I want you to play the zone as intended if you want the rewards intended for that zone
If you want Master Angler, you should fish in PvPvE Cyrodiil, as the Devs intended.
If you want Tamriel Skyshard Hunter, you should get your skyshards from PvPvE Cyrodiil, as the Devs intended.
If you want the lead for the Malacath's Band of Brutality part, you should kill bosses in PvPvE Imperial City, as the Devs intended.
If you want event tickets for Midyear Mayhem, a event celebrating all things PVP, you darned well better be doing your dailies in the PvPvE Cyrodiil and Imperial City, as the Devs intended.
If that's something you can agree with, great!
If not, then it starts to look like just another request to get the rewards of a PvPvE zone with none of the risk of PVP.
I would agree with that, PvP rewards should be available only to PvP. However, there are some PvP-only rewards, notably cosmetic things (which are the bread and butter of RPers, who DON'T PvP), that should be made available to PvE players.
The argument to that is always going to be "they are available to PvE players, they just have to do PvP." And it will never matter what type of play someone is into, the choice is forever going to be "do something you hate or suck it up and go without." That's what it all boils down to in the end.
That's correct, because that is how ESO and indeed most games are designed.
You play the game as intended, including doing content you dislike, in order to get the rewards. You don't say "I hate X content, can I get the same rewards for not doing the content I hate?"
Well, okay, some people on the forums DO say exactly that. See my example about housing enthusiasts asking why they have to do a trial in order to get the boat furnishing they want. Or law-abiding roleplayers complaining they couldn't get event tickets from the TG/DB events. This isn't just a PVP-hater thing, which only goes to show that it is how ESO is designed. What this is, is the understandable, but flawed desire of players to avoid content they dislike while still getting everything they want. A proverb about the having and eating of cakes to mind. Of course some players want it. Equally obviously, the Devs don't cater to it.
For example, let's look at a cosmetic rewards that are genuinely locked behind PVP: Legate Black dye, Battlegrounds Style pages, and the Emperor costume.
@Morgha_Kul, would you say that PVEers are unfairly deprived of those cosmetics? That they should have PVE-only opportunities to earn cosmetics that are locked behind doing a ton of Alliance War activities in a PvPvE zone, fighting in a ton of Battlegrounds, or being the top-scoring player of your faction when they capture the six ring keeps, respectively? "ZOS, I want to roleplay as the Emperor, so I need the costume, please give it to me!"
Would you then turn around and say that PVP-only players should be able to earn cosmetics that are locked behind PVE group content? I think that Captain Varanis Arano would look smashing running around Cyrodiil on the Sunspire Champion Senche-Lion while wearing the Godslayer title, even though my chances of completing Sunspire Godslayer and the rest of the Sunspire achievements is virtually nil, probably about as good as the chance of a PVP-hating player doing Battlegrounds long enough to get all the Style pages.
And if you say yes to both, then have you really grappled with why ZOS effectively says "No thanks, do the content if you want the rewards"?
It is strongly to ZOS' benefit to put rewards of different types, including cosmetics, behind different types of content in ESO. Most players will try an awful lot of different things for cosmetics and that's exactly what ZOS wants. Not every player will, but they are a minority, and the benefits of handing that minority a skip button doesn't outweigh the benefits of getting most players to try out different content.
It sucks to be in the minority, sittting there like "Whelp, I guess I'm never getting that Emperor costume because I hate PVP and there's no way I'm getting it." Because let's be honest, you aren't going to get it the correct way, and ZOS isn't going to hand it to you. (And to be fair, I'm not going to get it either, because I'm neither that good at PVP nor willing to lose sleep trying for the title, even though I'd love to roleplay as the Empress.)
The conclusion I'm coming to is that when people say "Sure, I'll accept no rewards" what they really mean is "Sure, I'll accept no PVP rewards, which doesn't include any of things I really want that can currently only be earned with the risk of PVP in a PvPvE zone."
Not pointing fingers at anyone in particular here. So much as paraphrasing stuff I've heard on similar threads in years past: Some people want the skyshards - "Oh, skyshards in Cyrodiil are PVE rewards just like they are in Bleakrock even though the zones have completely different rulesets!" Some people want fish - "How are fish tied to PVP, even though the Devs put fish in a PvPvE zone and all the ocean fish are right in front of AD'S home gate?" Some people want cosmetics. I listed three of them above. If you had a different example in mind, I'd be happy to discuss it. "I want to flex the Savior of Nirn title, so I should get the credit for closing Dark anchors in war-torn Cyrodiil even though I'm in a PVE-safe zone where there is no war and no enemy players to fight me like the Devs intended!"
That's not how that works. That's not how the Devs designed ESO and its PvPvE zones. We all know that, and asking for it to be otherwise is done out of the earnest desire to skip playing the game as the Devs intended because of genuine dislike for the intended content.
And so it turns out that, yes, this really was just another request to get the rewards of a PvPvE zone with none of the risk of PVP.
You want me to play the game a certain way. Why does it matter to you how I play? Why does it matter to you if I get Master Angler or some other accolade? How does it affect your gameplay if I get the skyshards in Cyrodiil?
This is a mentality I see a lot in these threads... Honestly, if someone wants something in the game and it's not going to affect how I play, I have NO objection. You want PvP copies of every zone? Sure, I won't use them, and I think they're a bad idea, but if you want that I see no reason to deny you because it doesn't affect me. I say I want a PvE Cyrodiil... and you say I shouldn't have that because... you don't want me to have it? It's not going to affect you because I'm not in the PvP version. You're losing nothing if they make a PvE version of the zone.
"You want me to play the game a certain way."
Look, I want everyone to play the way the Devs intended if they want the rewards. I did. Lots of players did and lots of players still do. Yet players asking for the rewards of PvPvE zones in PVE-only safety want the Devs to give them an easy out for their skyshards, their Master Angler title, and PvPvE cosmetics, which I notice you only addressed Emperor.
I'm against handing players an easy out to get the same rewards as the people who played the game as intended. To repeat myself, there's something ludicrous about "I want to flex the Savior of Nirn title, so I should get the credit for closing Dark anchors in war-torn Cyrodiil even though I'm in a PVE-safe zone where there is no war and no enemy players to fight me like the Devs intended!"
Maybe you are okay with that, but I am not.
"How does it impact you if players don't play the way the Devs intended?"
I suggest you think less in terms of how it impacts me personally, and think about how it impacts the Devs when players don't play ESO as is intended. Because I understand that you don't like it, but it's pretty clear that the Devs want most of their playerbase to have some basic experience in PVE and PVP, and strongly encourage players to try out PvPvE zones through events and other exclusive rewards. Like, oh, skyshards, leads, titles, and a few cosmetics that are exclusive to PvPvE zones. They balance PVE and PVP together - it only benefits the Devs to get most players to experience both. The minority who refuse to get out of their comfort zone are just that, a minority.
Once your question is rephrased in that light, I think it's pretty clear why the Devs have effectively said "No, you will play the game as intended if you want the rewards. Here, have another Midyear Mayhem. Here, have another Imperial City gear set." And so on.
(As for how it would impact ME, personally, I would have never set foot in PVP if I'd been offered an easy way out to Master Angler, and other rewards. As we know from the bugged random dungeon rewards where everyone wanted Random Normal Fungal Grotto 1, if you offer an easy way out and the same rewards, the vast majority of people will take the easy way out even if they otherwise would have gone to PvPvE Cyrodiil.)
"But seriously, are you just saying it because you don't want me to have nice things?"
I'm saying that if you want nice things, you need to play as the Devs intended. If you don't, you haven't earned the same rewards as everyone who did. If you dislike the content so much that you don't want to play as intended, then you will miss out on the rewards.
See also the examples I cited with housing furnishings and TG/DB event tickets.This isn't just a "I dislike PVP" thing where the PVPers want to force you to PVP. This is a design decision made by the Devs, and frankly, it shouldn't be surprising The Devs put rewards in different types of content to encourage most players to experience all the content the game has to offer. This is pretty basic game design. A minority of players will refuse to do certain types of content even for rewards they really want, but they are just that, a minority.
I don't expect to convince anyone to stop asking for the same rewards exclusive to PvPvE zones to be in the safe PVE-only zone they want. That's because most of those players believe that the Devs should not expect them to do content they dislike. They believe that the Devs owe them an easy out to get those same rewards because they should never have to play content they dislike. This attitude isn't just a PVP-disliking player thing; I think I listed enough examples to prove that this is an attitude shared by a minority of players across multiple playstyle niches.
No one wants to accept that the Devs DO expect them to play content they dislike if they want the same rewards as players who played it as intended, because that would require accepting that they can either suck it up and play content they dislike, or do without. We see again and again that they'd rather ask for that easy way out because they dislike the content that much.
The Devs, on the other hand, correctly continue to expect that the majority of the player base will try out different playstyles in order to get the rewards they want, and that the minority will either suck it up and play the game as intended, or will do without. It's to the benefit of ESO that they continue to do so, and they know it - just look at Antiquities and the coming Seals of Endeavors if you doubt that.
There's also a diminishment of achievement. Handouts to lazy players who don't want to do content diminishes the accomplishments of players who actually did the content to get the same rewards. It's selfish to request the rewards from a game mode a player refuses to engage with. And a player's sentiments towards pvp are wholly irrelevant. Pvp is a part of this game and if players want the rewards that are obtained through risk of pvp they need to get over themselves and do those things or move on from thinking they should get the rewards.
BingoEdited by Iccotak on May 10, 2021 7:52AM0 -
Hydra9268✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »Morgha_Kul wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Morgha_Kul wrote: »Ok... here's what I'm seeing.
PvP exists only in Cyrodiil (or duels in any zone). If PvP players want to expand that to having PvP exlusive copies of all zones... what would that do? It would spread out the already small PvP community over even MORE area... making it nearly impossible for PvP players to actually do any PvP. So, let's stop trying to push that notion.
PvP players don't want a PvE version of Cyrodiil... because it will take PvE players out of the PvP zone? What I see there is PvP players lamenting they don't have easy targets to kill that can't fight back. Remember, most PvE players will be there alone, and/or will not have optimized gear. More, they won't be as practiced as PvP players are maximizing dps or defenses. My characters average between 5-10k dps. How would I have ANY hope of competing with a PvP built character doing 100k+ dps? The answer is I wouldn't. Therefore, I must conclude that the only reason PvP players would object to PvE players having an option to NOT enter the PvP zone is that they would lose the risk free targets. Such players aren't really interested in actual PvP, just easy kills.
There's not enough PvE content in Cyrodiil? That's already been demonstrated to not be true, but let's suppose it IS, for the sake of argument. Having a sizable zone with nothing of substance in it means it's an area that can be ADDED to by development, after the fact. In a sense, that's kind of the whole point of an MMO... that the world of the game exist independently of content.
In short, I see no valid reason NOT to make a PvE verson of Cyrodiil.
Take out the rewards from that PVE version, or substitute different rewards, and I agree with you. Have your PVE-only zone.
Because you missed one objection: I want you to play the zone as intended if you want the rewards intended for that zone
If you want Master Angler, you should fish in PvPvE Cyrodiil, as the Devs intended.
If you want Tamriel Skyshard Hunter, you should get your skyshards from PvPvE Cyrodiil, as the Devs intended.
If you want the lead for the Malacath's Band of Brutality part, you should kill bosses in PvPvE Imperial City, as the Devs intended.
If you want event tickets for Midyear Mayhem, a event celebrating all things PVP, you darned well better be doing your dailies in the PvPvE Cyrodiil and Imperial City, as the Devs intended.
If that's something you can agree with, great!
If not, then it starts to look like just another request to get the rewards of a PvPvE zone with none of the risk of PVP.
I would agree with that, PvP rewards should be available only to PvP. However, there are some PvP-only rewards, notably cosmetic things (which are the bread and butter of RPers, who DON'T PvP), that should be made available to PvE players.
The argument to that is always going to be "they are available to PvE players, they just have to do PvP." And it will never matter what type of play someone is into, the choice is forever going to be "do something you hate or suck it up and go without." That's what it all boils down to in the end.
That's correct, because that is how ESO and indeed most games are designed.
You play the game as intended, including doing content you dislike, in order to get the rewards. You don't say "I hate X content, can I get the same rewards for not doing the content I hate?"
WOW's player base said the same things about people constantly asking for vanilla/classic on their forums. Requests for vanilla were met with the same cliched responses: "Blizzard's time is better spent elsewhere (e.g., on my thing that I like more)," "vanilla is dead," "it'll fragment the user base," "play the current game!," "people will play for two months then drop their subscription and WOW will die." None of those things happened. Classic ended up becoming a monster hit for Blizzard and made the game more successful.
I'm saying cloning Cyrodiil into a PVE zone with dungeons, trials (sure, why not!), side quests, and an all-new storyline that features the Lord of Order, Jyggalag, who has obtained the ability to control time (the good bet Hermaeus Mora has something to do with it, although the reasons remain unknown). The story could reach a climatic conclusion on a new ESO zone, The Shivering Isles (Jyggalag's plane of Oblivion). Meanwhile, Jyggalag has visited Kvatch and set up a stable time portal that teleports players to a PVP Cyrodiil revamped with all new PVP challenges (there's a story that ties the time portal with his new power).
Sounds like an idea for an expansion. which btw could only be a chunk of cyrodil
Precisely. The devs don't need to do the entire zone. Perhaps only 50-60% of it. I would hope a portion in the north includes Cloud Ruler Temple and Bruma, then Cheydinhal in the east and Cropford in the southeast, and finally Bravil in the south. Something like a backward crescent moon shape. I don't know if the zones would include the Imperial City, but it would be good to have a portion of it for the story's sake. Eventually, the player leads to The Shivering Isles.
Quarter 1: Northern and eastern Cyrodiil
Quarter 2: South Cyrodiil and a portion of Imperial City
Quarter 3: New dungeon and a new trial
Quarter 4: The Shivering Isles
Then it would be nothing like Cyrodiil PVP. How cool would that be?
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Jaraal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭3. I don't want PVP rewards in PVE Cyrodiil. Any competitive stuff, including the currencies, should remain PVP-only and NOT appear in the PVE Cyrodiil. This move ensures players who want those rewards have to do PVP content. However, my request does not extend to things like skyshards, delve completions, fishing spots, and any other PVE content. Those would appear in both the PVP and PVE versions.
Why should some players have no-risk rewards that many of us had to fight and die at the hands of other players to achieve? It took me a long time to get all 45 skyshards in the zone, and some of them you can only access by capturing enemy keeps so you can get past their gates. But you want to be able to just waltz in and pretend you're in a starter zone and take what you like because you can't be bothered to play the game as it is intended?
The only way I would support this is if ZOS were to give those who actually earned the rewards some sort of bonus not available to "PvE Cyrodiil" users. Like a really cool mount and pet combo, or a stipend of 2,000 free crowns a month, or access to a "PvP Cyrodiil" achievement skill set, or something of that nature.
[snip]
[Edited to remove Baiting]Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on May 10, 2021 2:08PM4 -
wazzz56✭✭✭✭✭So...let me get this straight.
1. Skyshards, fishing, and PvE quest objectives in Cyrodiil/IC are the reward for risking PvP.
2. Skyshards, fishing, and PvE quest objectives in the rest of Tamriel are the reward for...not risking PvP?
So NOT running the risk of being interrupted, delayed or harassed is JUST as odious to a PvP player as running those risks are to a PvE player? Am I reading that correctly? The fear of being able to complete something without other players trying to screw it up for them causes just as much anxiety and irritation as the presence of it?
It must be truly terrible to imagine having to do something without people constantly up your rear trying to insult you and stop you from doing it. We should be more compassionate about this, since obviously PvP players go through a lot when they have to collect those skyshards that are just...*shudder*...just SITTING THERE without any mobs around them or other players to make them start over or camp them.
People also keep mentioning how great it is that PvP is forced on PvE players so that they can potentially discover they like it. I would love to know just how many of those people love something they hated eating that was forced on them. I know my dad sure loves brussels sprouts now in his 70s even though as a child his mom made him eat them and he can still remember how much he hated them now. Oh wait, no, he STILL HATES THEM, because they were forced on him so much that he couldn't bring himself to try them again as an adult.
Forcing PvP once would let players know if they liked it or not. Forcing it 76 times (all skyshards and rare fish) and still expecting that to be a reasonable way to lure players into it is crazy. I have not met one single person who loves something they hated the first 75 times and then suddenly saw it in a different light that 76th time. Being made to do something loathsome either becomes neutral after a while as one numbs themselves to it just to get it over with, or intensifies that hatred. I have also not yet personally spoken with anyone else who even bothered to finish both the skyshard and fishing achievements that hated PvP from the beginning--of the five people I discussed this with, four refuse to do those achievements at all and are willing to blow off the rewards because the task is just too frustrating to contemplate and one will only do them in tiny increments and with help to avoid any possibility of encountering other players, and after several months of this plan has yet to feel up to starting on it because of the expected annoyance. These are all people who have tried PvP numerous times and a couple of them even play Battlegrounds, but in BGs they are not exposed to the same situation because people don't usually have the time or inclination to waste on harassment.
Using "we need it to lure players into PvP" or "the rewards there that are also in the rest of the game without risk of PvP are worth that even though they're exactly the same reward" just do not make any sense as arguments. I think that the honest answer is more something like "someone who has different interests from me wants to avoid doing what I like and that makes me angry because I feel like it's a personal attack on my preferences."
soooo we just going to ignore how much more PVE is "forced" on pvpers in comparison? gear, skill lines, skyshards etc....pvpers have to endure way more pve in order to pvp effectively...GM Tig Ole Critties ps5 NA small scale PvP guild
"After a hard week of farming, or a long night of being nagged by your wife, there is nothing better than going out for a bit of a fish."3 -
wazzz56✭✭✭✭✭these threads really just show how ignorant a lot of people are to what cyro actually is like and how much PVE is essentially forced on PvPers....that being said, I will help any of you out if you really need it and are on Ps4/5 NA, just hit me up, I have toons from all 3 factions so that won't be an issue
Edited by wazzz56 on May 10, 2021 12:26PMGM Tig Ole Critties ps5 NA small scale PvP guild
"After a hard week of farming, or a long night of being nagged by your wife, there is nothing better than going out for a bit of a fish."4 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭For the record, here's what was requested by me numerous times since I am the one who started the discussion.
1. I want PVE Cyrodiil to be another instance of PVP Cyrodiil. Given the size of the map, the devs should halve it into eastern and western zones, northern and southern zones, or perhaps uniquely diagonally. This division gives the devs time to flesh out the zone and add more content like trials, dungeons, major city hubs (i.e., Cloud Ruler Temple or Bruma in the north and Bravil or Cheydinhal in the east or west).
2. I want PVE Cyrodiil only if it happens with a new expansion that tells an "after the war" story, with a secondary objective. Something like Jyggalag has new powers over time, and no one knows why, how. For what purpose. Jyggalag visited Kvatch in Gold Coast and opened a stable time portal to a revamped PVP Cyrodiil with new features that would make the PVP player base happy. Perhaps Jyggalag's doorway leads to an alternate reality of the alliance war. I would NEVER want the devs to just copy Cyrodiil and leave it untouched but remove PVP. That would be boring.
3. I don't want PVP rewards in PVE Cyrodiil. Any competitive stuff, including the currencies, should remain PVP-only and NOT appear in the PVE Cyrodiil. This move ensures players who want those rewards have to do PVP content. However, my request does not extend to things like skyshards, delve completions, fishing spots, and any other PVE content. Those would appear in both the PVP and PVE versions.
And there's my problem.
Above I break down in detail how the rewards you want: the skyshards, the delves, the fishing spots and the stuff you say is PVE content in a zone fundamentally designed from the beginning as a PvPvE zone are intimately tied to the PvPvE nature of the zone. The Devs expected those to be areas of conflict in a PvPvE zone and it's pretty obvious when you look at the context of how Cyrodiil works.
It's that bolded part that make this request a transparent attempt to bypass the intended PvPvE gameplay that Cyrodiil was designed for in order to get the rewards you want with none of the risk.
Okay, I'll be specific.
"A skyshard is a skyshard, right?" This seems to be what you are saying here.
No, it's only possible to say that if we ignore all context. A Cyrodiil Skyshard is in a zone designed for PvPvE. A PVE-only skyshard is in a zone designed for PVE. They are not the same.
And you know it, or you wouldn't be asking to avoid the intended factor you dislike: the PVP.
But how, exactly, are the Cyrodiil Skyshards different?
The last time I went for the non-gate Cyrodiil Skyshards, I went during off-hours. I met enemy players several times. Deep in AD territory, I went for a delve skyshard, met two AD players and they killed me. They were probably there for either the skyshard or the 20% AP buff from killing a delve boss. I had to go back to the delve on a later run. In another AD delve, me and another player saw each other and instead took turns while giving each other a wide berth. In DC territory, I played chicken with a DC player near an ayleid ruin. Back in my home EP territory, I got a little cocky, started moving out in the open, then ganked, boom, dead. Even when I didn't see any players, it's not like I was safe. For all I know, there enemy players hiding from me like I was trying to hide from them. That's part of the risk of Cyrodiil.
The above is only my encounters at the Skyshards. It doesn't include the process of moving around the map. To travel to DC and AD territory, I had to travel through chokepoint gates and bridges that are a favored hunting ground for gankers. I had to avoid the raids of AD and DC going back and forth to defend their objectives. When I died, I rezzed up at my nearest keep, so my progress was very dependent on my faction.
As for the gated skyshards, I've described this above, but no one ever seems to really grasp what this means. If you want the single EP skyshard by the Scroll Temple of Chim, your alliance must siege, capture, and hold both Arrius Keep and Kingscrest Keep. If you want the single EP skyshard by the Scroll Temple of Ghartok, you need to siege, capture, and hold Arrius Keep and Farragut Keep. This opens the gate so you can reach the skyshard...and also so your alliance mates can smash their way inside to grab the EP scroll, which is worth 10 points while held and increases your factions buffs. Let's just say that the moment your faction captures Arrius Keep, EP players know what's up. We know you are coming for our Scrolls. Those keeps are usually fiercely defended (well, maybe less on a emptier campaign or during off-hours at low population) precisely because the Scrolls are important.
Okay, so now I have to ask: do you really think that the Cyrodiil Skyshards are PVE content?
Seriously, do you really think that strolling up to a skyshard in the safety of PVE-only Cyrodiil with zero fear of any enemy players is in any way equivalent to how the Devs actually expected you to obtain the Cyrodiil Skyshards?
Because from my point of view, it's disingenuous to pretend that Cyrodiil skyshards are PVE-only content. They aren't. They were placed in a PvPvE zone. They are placed in PvPvE content in that zone, like delves and towns and near scroll temples. They all require risking the threat of PvPvE if you want them. There is just no way that if we examine the context of Cyrodiil, that one can say "A skyshard is a skyshard" or act like they are the same as picking up skyshards in a PVE-only zone like Eastmarch. The Devs designed Cyrodiil that way. They expected for skyshards to be a point of conflict where players can meet and fight.
But you knew that. You know that because that's the part you want to avoid. That's why you are asking for the reward you want (skyshards, etc.) with none of the risk of the PvPvE the Devs designed and expected in Cyrodiil.
And so no, if you want any of the rewards in PvPvE Cyrodiil, you should have to play the zone as intended with the risk of PvPvE. None of the rewards are PVE-only rewards. They were all intended for PvPvE gameplay and are all tied to the PvPvE nature of Cyrodiil.
Edited to delete a draft quote I didn't intend to post.Edited by VaranisArano on May 10, 2021 12:37PM12 -
zvavi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
3. I don't want PVP rewards in PVE Cyrodiil. Any competitive stuff, including the currencies, should remain PVP-only and NOT appear in the PVE Cyrodiil. This move ensures players who want those rewards have to do PVP content. However, my request does not extend to things like skyshards, delve completions, fishing spots, and any other PVE content. Those would appear in both the PVP and PVE versions.
Cyro skyshards are a PvP rewards. Few of them are even "gated" (yes I am very proud of that pun) behind alliance gates that are only open if specific keeps are under your alliance's control.
Delve completions are a PvP reward. Since you are supposed to fight for the so boost they give.
Fishing spots are a PvP reward, since you fish in war zone.
So why would they appear in the PvE version? For more insights on why it is PvP reward, Varanis did a better job explaining.
For his post:VaranisArano wrote: »Morgha_Kul wrote: »I'm uncertain, as I don't know what exactly is available. All I know is that there ARE cosmetic things (motifs, costumes, etc.) that can only be obtained through PvP. Where they are very particular to PvP (such as the Emperor costume), they should remain exclusive to PvP... others (if any) would need to be determined.
I consider things that don't affect actual gameplay to be cosmetic... that means titles too, though again, if they're definitively PvP titles (like Emperor), then they should remain so.
Skyshards are not cosmetic, but neither are they PvP items. They should appear in BOTH zones, but getting the shard in one would also mean you got the one in the other (that is, they're the same skyshard).
Now, I think that should also go the other way. Things that are not definitively exclusive to PvE (eg. Quest rewards) might be made available through PvP play. Again, this would mean costumes and disguises and other such things.
Personally, I don't care if there are any rewards in the zone at all, beyond things earned by doing delves, quests and the like... but that's me. I'm trying to think about what would be best for everyone.
I think what the devs intended is a matter of supposition, and neither you nor I can say one way or the other.
First off, I find it a little annoying that you don't even know enough about the cosmetic rewards that are only available from PvPvE zones to know what you want. Perhaps I'm mistaken, but it seems to me that you only know that PVPers get stuff that you want without having to PVP. Maybe that's silly of me, so sorry if I'm seeing something you didn't intend.
I really do think it would help if you learned more about PvPvE zones work and how the Devs tied the objectives like Skyshards into the PvPvE nature of the zone. I am happy to elaborate on this point for you if you need more details, because I feel like a broken record saying stuff that may be obvious to a PVPer, but may not be obvious to a PVE-only player.
But I will be honest. I do not care to explain it to you further if the only answer I get is that I'm being presumptuous and making suppositions when I'm literally describing how Cyrodiil and Imperial City function. If that is your response, I'm done.
1. Cyrodiil is a PvPvE zone that is designed for Realm v Realm v Realm combat in the vein of Dark Age of Camelot. It has a variety of PvPvE objectives, and has since launch. When those objectives have changed, it has usually been to tie those objectives closer to the PvP nature of the zone.. It is a base game zone, always has been, and thus PvPvE Cyrodiik is included in achievements that require ALL of the base game zones like Master Angler.
A. Three Towns, with their quests, are PVP objectives. They are transit points and score points, and you have to capture the town before you can quest there. The other two "neutral" towns are near scroll running routes. Town quests often involve going to a delve in their questline. The Devs expected players to go there and fight. The quests are required for Tamriel Hero title, which included all the quest achievements in the base game. Towns actually used to be neutral - ZOS changed three of them to be claimable by the alliances. Recently, ZOS made them transit points as well, which makes them much more important to the alliances. The Devs have given players even more incentive to fight.
B. Cyrodiil delve bosses grant an AP buff, so the Devs expected players to go there and fight. See also the town quest lines, which funnel players to delves where they come into conflict with questers and skyshard hunters. The Devs expected players to fight.
C. Skyshards are scattered deep throughout enemy territory, requiring players to traverse guarded chokepoints or take back paths to reach. Two Skyshards are behind the enemy gates. In order to reach those skyshards, the faction must capture at least two keeps, then fight their way through the scroll gate as the defending faction tries to protect their scroll. The Devs intended players to go there and fight, though fast stealthy players have a good shot at getting there unseen once the gates are open.
D. Fishing spots are scattered throughout enemy territory, requiring players to traverse guarded chokepoints or take back paths to reach. DC players in particular end up on the far side of the map from their home keeps, deep in AD or EP territory. These are required for the Master Angler title, for getting all the fish from every base game zone.
E. Cyrodiil dolmens have a chance to drop Coldfire siege weapons, which are some of the most deadly weapons available and which are only otherwise handed out during Midyear Mayhem. That's excellent incentive to fight at dolmens, which are necessary for the Savior of Nirn title. The Devs expected players to fight.
F. Alliance Rank dyes are cosmetics obtained by rising in the ranks by earning AP. LOTS of AP. Millions of AP. It's possible to do this purely by repairing walls, but even that isn't 100% safe.
G. Alliance War outfits like the Knight of the Circle style pages or the Arena Gladiator outfit can be bought for gold by PVE-only players. Expect it to cost a premium, because those require a ton of dailies like "Capture 3 Keeps" or "Kill 40 players." The Motifs are bought with AP, but they aren't bound, so go take yourself to your favorite guild store and buy them with gold!
All of the "cosmetic" rewards of Cyrodiil are intimately tied to the PvPvE nature of the zone.
If you want to remove the PvPvE nature of the zone, you don't deserve the same rewards.
2. As for Imperial City, I think a brief review of some of ZOS' own statements will suffice.
A. From the Launch Details: https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/25357
"While exploring and fighting your way through the Imperial City, be prepared to face not only Molag Bal's forces, but also enemy players from the opposing alliances. Rewards that are unmatched in power await those who are brave enough to enter the Imperial City and claim them."
B. In ESO's The Basics Guide, they lay out the many activities one can do in Imperial City, including those which granted titles and achievements.
"The Imperial City offers many activities you can participate in. Whether you're interested in strictly PVE, PVP, or a little of both, here are some of the ways you might choose to spend your time in the Imperial City: Battle enemy-alliance players and Molag Bal's forces, including the Xivkyn, in the Imperial Sewers and six Imperial Districts...Enter the Imperial Sewers and hunt Trove Scamps for gold and crafting supplies, and Cunning Scamps for Tel Var Stones...Play through the Imperial City storyline, started by the Drake of Blades."
https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/25365
Just to be crystal clear, the Drake of Blades main quest requires you to quest in the Districts. The skyshards are in the Districts. The fish are in the Districts. The bosses are in the Districts. And here is ZOS saying that you can battle enemy players in the Districts. There is even an achievement for killing 100 players in the same Arena as a multistage boss fight in the Main Quest, and the fight is not instanced. That's right. The Devs incentivized killing questers who're distracted fighting a pretty hard boss. The Devs absolutely expected players to fight!
All of the "cosmetic" rewards of the Imperial City that are locked behind PvPvE content are intimately tied to the PvPvE nature of the zone.
If you want to remove the PvPvE nature of the zone, you don't deserve the same rewards.
3. I'm really hoping that I don't need to elaborate on the obviously PVP-only nature of Battlegrounds, and that the bound style pages and titles obtained through Battlegrounds are all obviously intended to be PVP-exclusives, right? (I mean, there is a PVE-only way to get some of them, but it involves being a jerk who sits up on the spawn platform and expects their teammates to carry them to victory. I do not recommend that method to anyone.)
Finally, please do not dismiss the above with "Oh, that's presumptuous supposition about what what Devs expect." The above is how Cyrodiil functions by drawing players around the map to different objectives in ways that cause conflict. The Devs designed it that way! The above is how Imperial City is designed as a PvPvE area, in the Devs' own words. BGs is, uh, well, you gotta PVP if you want the stuff from BGs.
I don't really expect this to change your mind. You are going to want what you want, and want to avoid PVP when you can. But hopefully you learn a little more about why I'm so insistent that the PvPvE rewards of Cyrodiil and Imperial City are in fact distinct from any safe PVE-only version of the zone. You really wouldn't be earning the same achievements or titles because you would not be playing as the Devs designed those zones. You are asking for the same rewards with none of the risk that the PvPvE zones are designed to have.5 -
DreamyLu✭✭✭✭✭
✭I play ESO since a few months. I'm 100% PvE and go to Cyrodiil regularly, wandering there as if I would be in explorable. I take it easy and try to do what is on my way, mainly chests, books and delves. I'm used to chose the version "Standard no CP" and never meet anyone there. Am always alone. When I'm tired and far from wayshrine, I just search for a foe and let him kill me so I can revive at start point and leave map.
I like it this way. Generally, I believe it should remain a PvP zone. I find it fair enough for PvE players, even more if they are within a guild. Due to other games I play, I'm used to have a separation between PvE & PvP, that is however no "hard" zoll. I find that normal and very much OK.I'm out of my mind, feel free to leave a message... PC/NA5 -
Greasytengu✭✭✭✭✭I play ESO since a few months. I'm 100% PvE and go to Cyrodiil regularly, wandering there as if I would be in explorable. I take it easy and try to do what is on my way, mainly chests, books and delves. I'm used to chose the version "Standard no CP" and never meet anyone there. Am always alone. When I'm tired and far from wayshrine, I just search for a foe and let him kill me so I can revive at start point and leave map.
I like it this way. Generally, I believe it should remain a PvP zone. I find it fair enough for PvE players, even more if they are within a guild. Due to other games I play, I'm used to have a separation between PvE & PvP, that is however no "hard" zoll. I find that normal and very much OK.
oh if you are looking for a quick way back to safety you can do /stuck or queue for another empty campaign or IC.
Have fun out there!" I nEeD HeAlInG!!! "1
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