Hundreds of requests for a PVE Cyrodiil

Sju · May 2021

They could maybe make it a separate instance, buff it up like what Craglorn used to be in the beginning.

NagualV · May 2021

Let me elaborate on your opening, which is a false comparison.

1. Skyshards, fishing, and PvE quest objectives in Cyrodiil/IC are the reward for playing the zone as intended, which includes the risk of PvPvE.
2. Skyshards, fishing, and PvE quest objectives in the rest of Tamriel are the reward for playing the zones as intended, which does not include the risk of PvPvE.

If you question #1, I can continue to explain how the skyshards, fishing, and town/delve/delve quest objectives in Cyrodiil and Imperial City are intricately intertwined with the PVP objectives, such that they truly are designed as PvPvE zones if you wish. In addition, I can also cite ZOS' texts showing that they designed, intended, and expected for players to be questing and PVPing in areas like Imperial City, if you would like.

Saying things like "the Cyrodiil/IC skyshards/dolmens/achievements/fish are no different than Eastmarch skyshards/dolmens/achievements/fish is false. They are not the same because they are specifically acquired in PvPvE zones, where the Devs fully intended for players to experience the risk of PvPvE to get those things.

Therefore, we cannot draw the conclusion "I got the Eastmarch skyshards/fish, etc. risk free, so I should get the Cyrodiil Skyshards/fish etc risk free too." To say so ignores the fundamental difference in the design and intention for PvPvE zones like Cyrodiil/Imperial City vs PVE-only zones like Eastmarch. To say so is asking to get the rewards of PvPvE zones without playing the zones as intended.

What we see in many of these requests where PVE-only players want the Cyrodiil/IC skyshards, fishing, and quests with none of the risk of PVP is simply a denial that they should not be expected to play the game as intended because they dislike playing the game as intended.

I don't say this to insult anyone or direct it at anyone in particular, but the idea that "I should never have to play intended content I don't enjoy (insert whatever description of how/why they dislike PVP here) in order to get rewards" is crucial to the arguments being made for getting the same rewards from a PVE-only version of PVPVE zones.

It's not just PvPvE zones either. It'll crop up again when event tickets roll out for Midyear Mayhem and the Imperial City event, even though IC has two PVP-free options for tickets. It'll show up during the Undaunted Event, when players go "I have to do group content or solo a dungeon?" It'll show up when Endeavors rolls out and players realize that if you want to be maxing out on your rewards or want to skip some tedious tasks, you are either going to have to get out of the comfort zone or do without the rewards.

Even though ESO is very much a game where you have to do ALL of the content if you want ALL of the rewards, and it always has been, we'll continue to see these threads. Why? Because players who hate the intended gameplay in PvPvE zones still want the rewards in that PvPvE zone, but feel they should never have to do any gameplay they dislike to get those rewards.[/quote]

I feel like I'm wasting time with this, but, here goes -

I think folks need to read and understand Varanis's post. The game is INTENDED to be played this way.

My personal story - I've been playing since pc launch day. Never played an mmo before, never really pvp'd before. I got this game because I am an elder scrolls fan. Sometime in 2015 I tried out pvp because I had to level caltrops(remember how hard/long that was in 2015? It's so much easier now). I discovered that I enjoyed pvp and today I'm a pvp only player. I know many people who fall into this category.

The game was designed just as Varanis points out in their post. The game design had it's intended effect on me and others. I really had no interest in 2014 in pvping, yet here I am.

I have a very limited playing time nowadays. I have about 5-6 hours max a week to play. When I need a piece of gear, that means I have to sacrifice a significant amount of my short playing time doing pve content I dont want to do. I just deal with it and get it done. I've never once thought about asking/posting for the game to be changed based on my specific needs.

It's ok for people to post their opinions on the forums. Ultimately, folks need to realize the game is intended to be this way, like it or not. If ZOS decides to change it, then they decide to change it. Until then, as many have pointed out, there are many ways to get all achievements in pvp zones with minimal to no contact with people.

Indigogo · May 2021

You saw the uproar when they changed the weapons in Mael and those who had completed it on vet, now had the equivalent of normal weapons.

I'm assuming people want pve cyro to get achievements/complete all the content otherwise what an utterly colossal waste of time, space and money the zone would be.
Everyone who slogged out Tamriel Hero or Master Angler, arguably the peak questing achievements to get, would have their efforts *** on.

No, you can't have it all. Do the content or accept you have to go without. Just like everyone else has to do.

TequilaFire · May 2021

It would be very easy for ZOS to spin up a Cyro instance and turn off PvP.
They haven't so that should tell you where their position is on the subject.

Feaky · May 2021

Starlock wrote: »

Vasoka wrote: »

Hydra9268 wrote: »

I'll toss my vote into the hat for this. Most of Cyrodiil covers Oblivion content. But I don't want to bother with entering a PVP zone. Making a PVE version of the zone without the PVP perks and rewards doesn't take away the quality or value of the area. It makes it more accessible to those of us who merely want to explore it. At present, I have never visited the place since it's PVP. I am prepared for incoming hate.

No, absolutely DON'T ruin the one PVP zone the game has. Go PVE in the other 99.99999% of the game.

Pretend I'm an idiot. Explain to me how having a separate PvE instance of Cyrodiil would ruin the PvP instances of Cyrodiil when they don't have any interaction with one another.

There are so many problems that still need to be addressed to make Cyrodiil playable for PVP. Wasting valuable ZOS resources completely overhauling a PVP zone to make storylines relevant for PVE would further marginalize the attention ZOS gives PVP. Please go play in the 99.999% of the game already geared for PVE players or jump into one of the empty versions of Cyrodiil to explore and quest.

I am also not sure why people are so afraid to jump into a PVP zone. There is literally no penalty for dying other than having to rerun from the closest keep. And you can go hours without encountering opposing players unless you are looking for them.

VaranisArano · May 2021

Minyassa wrote: »

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

Ok... here's what I'm seeing.

PvP exists only in Cyrodiil (or duels in any zone). If PvP players want to expand that to having PvP exlusive copies of all zones... what would that do? It would spread out the already small PvP community over even MORE area... making it nearly impossible for PvP players to actually do any PvP. So, let's stop trying to push that notion.

PvP players don't want a PvE version of Cyrodiil... because it will take PvE players out of the PvP zone? What I see there is PvP players lamenting they don't have easy targets to kill that can't fight back. Remember, most PvE players will be there alone, and/or will not have optimized gear. More, they won't be as practiced as PvP players are maximizing dps or defenses. My characters average between 5-10k dps. How would I have ANY hope of competing with a PvP built character doing 100k+ dps? The answer is I wouldn't. Therefore, I must conclude that the only reason PvP players would object to PvE players having an option to NOT enter the PvP zone is that they would lose the risk free targets. Such players aren't really interested in actual PvP, just easy kills.

There's not enough PvE content in Cyrodiil? That's already been demonstrated to not be true, but let's suppose it IS, for the sake of argument. Having a sizable zone with nothing of substance in it means it's an area that can be ADDED to by development, after the fact. In a sense, that's kind of the whole point of an MMO... that the world of the game exist independently of content.

In short, I see no valid reason NOT to make a PvE verson of Cyrodiil.

Take out the rewards from that PVE version, or substitute different rewards, and I agree with you. Have your PVE-only zone.

Because you missed one objection: I want you to play the zone as intended if you want the rewards intended for that zone

If you want Master Angler, you should fish in PvPvE Cyrodiil, as the Devs intended.

If you want Tamriel Skyshard Hunter, you should get your skyshards from PvPvE Cyrodiil, as the Devs intended.

If you want the lead for the Malacath's Band of Brutality part, you should kill bosses in PvPvE Imperial City, as the Devs intended.

If you want event tickets for Midyear Mayhem, a event celebrating all things PVP, you darned well better be doing your dailies in the PvPvE Cyrodiil and Imperial City, as the Devs intended.

If that's something you can agree with, great!

If not, then it starts to look like just another request to get the rewards of a PvPvE zone with none of the risk of PVP.

I would agree with that, PvP rewards should be available only to PvP. However, there are some PvP-only rewards, notably cosmetic things (which are the bread and butter of RPers, who DON'T PvP), that should be made available to PvE players.

The argument to that is always going to be "they are available to PvE players, they just have to do PvP." And it will never matter what type of play someone is into, the choice is forever going to be "do something you hate or suck it up and go without." That's what it all boils down to in the end.

That's correct, because that is how ESO and indeed most games are designed.

You play the game as intended, including doing content you dislike, in order to get the rewards. You don't say "I hate X content, can I get the same rewards for not doing the content I hate?"

Well, okay, some people on the forums DO say exactly that. See my example about housing enthusiasts asking why they have to do a trial in order to get the boat furnishing they want. Or law-abiding roleplayers complaining they couldn't get event tickets from the TG/DB events. This isn't just a PVP-hater thing, which only goes to show that it is how ESO is designed. What this is, is the understandable, but flawed desire of players to avoid content they dislike while still getting everything they want. A proverb about the having and eating of cakes to mind. Of course some players want it. Equally obviously, the Devs don't cater to it.

For example, let's look at a cosmetic rewards that are genuinely locked behind PVP: Legate Black dye, Battlegrounds Style pages, and the Emperor costume.

@Morgha_Kul, would you say that PVEers are unfairly deprived of those cosmetics? That they should have PVE-only opportunities to earn cosmetics that are locked behind doing a ton of Alliance War activities in a PvPvE zone, fighting in a ton of Battlegrounds, or being the top-scoring player of your faction when they capture the six ring keeps, respectively? "ZOS, I want to roleplay as the Emperor, so I need the costume, please give it to me!"

Would you then turn around and say that PVP-only players should be able to earn cosmetics that are locked behind PVE group content? I think that Captain Varanis Arano would look smashing running around Cyrodiil on the Sunspire Champion Senche-Lion while wearing the Godslayer title, even though my chances of completing Sunspire Godslayer and the rest of the Sunspire achievements is virtually nil, probably about as good as the chance of a PVP-hating player doing Battlegrounds long enough to get all the Style pages.

And if you say yes to both, then have you really grappled with why ZOS effectively says "No thanks, do the content if you want the rewards"?

It is strongly to ZOS' benefit to put rewards of different types, including cosmetics, behind different types of content in ESO. Most players will try an awful lot of different things for cosmetics and that's exactly what ZOS wants. Not every player will, but they are a minority, and the benefits of handing that minority a skip button doesn't outweigh the benefits of getting most players to try out different content.

It sucks to be in the minority, sittting there like "Whelp, I guess I'm never getting that Emperor costume because I hate PVP and there's no way I'm getting it." Because let's be honest, you aren't going to get it the correct way, and ZOS isn't going to hand it to you. (And to be fair, I'm not going to get it either, because I'm neither that good at PVP nor willing to lose sleep trying for the title, even though I'd love to roleplay as the Empress.)

The conclusion I'm coming to is that when people say "Sure, I'll accept no rewards" what they really mean is "Sure, I'll accept no PVP rewards, which doesn't include any of things I really want that can currently only be earned with the risk of PVP in a PvPvE zone."

Not pointing fingers at anyone in particular here. So much as paraphrasing stuff I've heard on similar threads in years past: Some people want the skyshards - "Oh, skyshards in Cyrodiil are PVE rewards just like they are in Bleakrock even though the zones have completely different rulesets!" Some people want fish - "How are fish tied to PVP, even though the Devs put fish in a PvPvE zone and all the ocean fish are right in front of AD'S home gate?" Some people want cosmetics. I listed three of them above. If you had a different example in mind, I'd be happy to discuss it. "I want to flex the Savior of Nirn title, so I should get the credit for closing Dark anchors in war-torn Cyrodiil even though I'm in a PVE-safe zone where there is no war and no enemy players to fight me like the Devs intended!"

That's not how that works. That's not how the Devs designed ESO and its PvPvE zones. We all know that, and asking for it to be otherwise is done out of the earnest desire to skip playing the game as the Devs intended because of genuine dislike for the intended content.

And so it turns out that, yes, this really was just another request to get the rewards of a PvPvE zone with none of the risk of PVP.

TequilaFire · May 2021

They even added more saltwater fishing spots just below Drakelowe mine so you don't have to fish in front of AD gate anymore.

Sylvermynx · May 2021

TequilaFire wrote: »

They even added more saltwater fishing spots just below Drakelowe mine so you don't have to fish in front of AD gate anymore.

Really? That's great! Thanks for the info!

zvavi · May 2021

I never understood the need for Cyro PvE zone. Cyro is huge, and even though I don't mind a bit of PvP, only the amount of time on horse from point to point turns me away from it. So, generally reasons not to do PvE cyro:
1. The quests in the zone are boring fetch quests, better use the resources to create a new PvE zone with proper quests and story and new rewards.
2. As I mentioned, Cyro is huge, making it a PvE zone means 1, long, riding simulator, not really engaging gameplay, better just do a new PvE zone with proper quests and story and new rewards.
3. Even now you can already go into Cyro (one of the less popular campaigns) and just walk to your PvE objective, and rarely will you even meet a new player, better do a new PvE zone with proper quests and story and new rewards.
4. As others mentioned, most of the PvP community currently are people that were PvE only, ended up somehow in PvP group while going to Cyro for the PvE rewards, which means that the cross between PvP and PvE does affect the PvP liveliness in game, therefore better do a new PvE zone with proper quests and story and new rewards.
5. The current PvPvE rewards are there as PvPvE rewards, which is fair, so since you will need new rewards for the new Cyro zone (which is as mentioned in 2, a huge horsing simulator), better do a new PvE zone with proper quests and story and new rewards.
conclusion:
better do a new PvE zone with proper quests and story and new rewards.

AlnilamE · May 2021

Hydra9268 wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

RageKing wrote: »

they will never make a option to have a PvE mode in cyrodiil. its is literally the ONLY place in the game for pvp. if there was a option for pve, it would probably be popular for a lil bit while the people who are scared of other players do the few quests in there and farm some gear, then it will turn into a dead zone.

I honestly dont know what the big deal about pvp is. just go into a low pop server and do the quests you need to get done. sure there will still be a few enemy plauers lurking around, but it would be extrememly selfish to demand that you get a pure pve option in a zone meant for pvp.

If they ever make a option for pure pve in cyrodiil, I will demand that every pve zone have a option to be a pvp zone as well. needs to be a 2 way street and not just cater to the small yet largely vocal minority of players who are scared on pvp.

It's comments like that that put a lot of players off PvP and also discourage them from supporting any complaints etc from PvPers about performance or lack of new content. PvEers don't stay away from PvP because they're scared, but because they don't enjoy it and they prefer PvE.

Exactly. I've had my filled of PVP in WOW (played on a PVP server for 3 years), GW2's WvWvW, Darktide in Asheron's Call, and PK'ing in Ultima Online. It's not because I'm "scared," it's because I simply don't want to do PVP content.

OK.

But is running into an enemy player that may or may not kill you PvP content? At a less than 5% chance if you know what you're doing?

It's not like you need to kill the Emp to get the PvE achievements in Cyrodiil. You just need to sneak a bit and be aware of where the fights are happening.

But you've never been there, so you wouldn't know.

Alurria · May 2021

After reading this whole thread, I came to the conclusion most have valid points on all sides of this debate. Let me say I do not advocate taking anything from the pvp players or pve players. I do not agree with splitting up the player base either. However this 3 banners war needs some progress otherwise the zone is stagnant.

Cyrodil is a very large land mass that has many empty places. Why can't we shrink it a bit and by that I mean each faction carves out a piece that is now controlled by that faction with towns and quests that are pve only. And still have the center being fought for with pvp goals still in place maybe add new delves and quests to entice more people into the war. Also travel wouldn't be as long and arduous. More surprise daedra attacks in the middle of a fight just so we have to stop and cooperate until we get back to killing one another. I don't know if this would work but Cyrodil is so large and many areas you never see another person.

VaranisArano · May 2021

TequilaFire wrote: »

They even added more saltwater fishing spots just below Drakelowe mine so you don't have to fish in front of AD gate anymore.

Really? Okay, that's fantastic! It's still close to an alliance war objective, and I bet that DC fishers hate both options, but at least it's not only right in front of the gate where any AD riding out can easily spot you.

I swear, whoever designed the original fishing map in Cyrodiil was an AD player.

How it used to be:

TequilaFire · May 2021

Look for a little Imperial fishing camp along the river just below Drake.

JoDiMageio · May 2021

VaranisArano wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

They even added more saltwater fishing spots just below Drakelowe mine so you don't have to fish in front of AD gate anymore.

Really? Okay, that's fantastic! It's still close to an alliance war objective, and I bet that DC fishers hate both options, but at least it's not only right in front of the gate where any AD riding out can easily spot you.

As a DC player, I did my fishing achieve in 2 nights in Cyro, rode between the three saltwater spots on the map, all in AD territory, saw 1 banana who was running into the keep.The only thing that sucked was the time it took to get to saltwater spots, and even then, the bloobs had been nightcapping so I TPed to Faregyl...

Anyone who says that it's impossible as a PvE player to get Cyro achieves just hasn't figured out how to make it work. Same thing for IC (although I will admit that there is more toxicity there from PvPers toward a lone ranger PvE player, I suspect Tel Var has something to do with it).

Also, loved your posts on here, and 150% agree. Expecting to get achieves for content you don't like and therefore don't want to do is not okay. You do it as intended, or avoid the content.

TequilaFire · May 2021

TequilaFire wrote: »

Look for a little Imperial fishing camp along the river just below Drake.

Actually it is a little further west just before Bay Bridge, the camp with one tent.
Across from the listing ship.
I went back and double checked my memory, lmao

RageKing · May 2021

Indigogo wrote: »

*puts hand up*
I'm one of those people who loathed the idea of pvp. Just the thought of entering cyro triggered super anxiety. I'm talking tears and shaking cause yay mental health.

But I needed stuff, achievements and what not so I was forced in.

Well. Turns out it wasn't nearly as terrifying for pve stuff as I feared. So I stayed and did more.

Then I saw keeps were being sieged near me so i checked it out.

Fast forward a month or two later, I emped for the first time Been pretty much living in cyro since.

The method does draw pve'ers into pvp, whether you want to accept it or not.

glad you built up some courage and made the transition to pvp and found it enjoyable. More people need to stop complaining and just go in and give it a go for a bit. of course your gonna die a few times but thats all part of learning. i dont pvp as much as i used to but all my greatest moments playing the game came from pvp with friends or solo. just give it a chance, you might be pleasantly surprised like this.

RageKing · May 2021

Hydra9268 wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

RageKing wrote: »

they will never make a option to have a PvE mode in cyrodiil. its is literally the ONLY place in the game for pvp. if there was a option for pve, it would probably be popular for a lil bit while the people who are scared of other players do the few quests in there and farm some gear, then it will turn into a dead zone.

I honestly dont know what the big deal about pvp is. just go into a low pop server and do the quests you need to get done. sure there will still be a few enemy plauers lurking around, but it would be extrememly selfish to demand that you get a pure pve option in a zone meant for pvp.

If they ever make a option for pure pve in cyrodiil, I will demand that every pve zone have a option to be a pvp zone as well. needs to be a 2 way street and not just cater to the small yet largely vocal minority of players who are scared on pvp.

It's comments like that that put a lot of players off PvP and also discourage them from supporting any complaints etc from PvPers about performance or lack of new content. PvEers don't stay away from PvP because they're scared, but because they don't enjoy it and they prefer PvE.

Exactly. I've had my filled of PVP in WOW (played on a PVP server for 3 years), GW2's WvWvW, Darktide in Asheron's Call, and PK'ing in Ultima Online. It's not because I'm "scared," it's because I simply don't want to do PVP content.

that may be true for the 2 of you. but i ould say the majority of players who loathe pvp do so becuase they hate being attacked by other players. being killed by npc is fine. but they get super triggered and angry when another player kills them. Therefore they want to avoid it at all costs and demand the devs alter the game for their playstyle which is more in lined with single player than a MMO

SidraWillowsky · May 2021

Other have said this, but I'll voice my agreement that Cyrodiil is almost completely devoid of other PvPers outside of the major battle(s) taking place in the zone. Yes, this even holds when a campaign is pop locked.

I've spent a ton of time in Cyro in PvE mode. Never once have I died to anyone whilst doing that outside of a town daily or two, but if you're out there exploring or delving or fishing in a low-pop zone, the odds are very, very slim that you'll see another player, let alone one who wants to actually engage with you.

SilverBride · May 2021

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

PvP players who dislike PvE are still ABLE to do the PvE content with comparative ease. PvE players who dislike PvP are completely unable to do the PvP content.

No one is completely unable to do PvP content. They may not like it. They may not be good at it. But they are able to do it.

PrimusTiberius · May 2021

And I'll toss my vote into the hat to keep Cyrodiil PvP (and I'm not even a PvP'er). Going into one of the lower populated areas to quest or to pick up whatever you're looking for is not difficult and rarely do you run into players.

kargen27 · May 2021

Alurria wrote: »

After reading this whole thread, I came to the conclusion most have valid points on all sides of this debate. Let me say I do not advocate taking anything from the pvp players or pve players. I do not agree with splitting up the player base either. However this 3 banners war needs some progress otherwise the zone is stagnant.

Cyrodil is a very large land mass that has many empty places. Why can't we shrink it a bit and by that I mean each faction carves out a piece that is now controlled by that faction with towns and quests that are pve only. And still have the center being fought for with pvp goals still in place maybe add new delves and quests to entice more people into the war. Also travel wouldn't be as long and arduous. More surprise daedra attacks in the middle of a fight just so we have to stop and cooperate until we get back to killing one another. I don't know if this would work but Cyrodil is so large and many areas you never see another person.

The size of the map is intentional as it affects strategy. Distance between objectives has to be considered when trying to take the map. Cutting off the enemy would become a much less effective strategy if the distances were shortened.

Czeri · May 2021

JoDiMageio wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

They even added more saltwater fishing spots just below Drakelowe mine so you don't have to fish in front of AD gate anymore.

Really? Okay, that's fantastic! It's still close to an alliance war objective, and I bet that DC fishers hate both options, but at least it's not only right in front of the gate where any AD riding out can easily spot you.

As a DC player, I did my fishing achieve in 2 nights in Cyro, rode between the three saltwater spots on the map, all in AD territory, saw 1 banana who was running into the keep.The only thing that sucked was the time it took to get to saltwater spots, and even then, the bloobs had been nightcapping so I TPed to Faregyl...

Anyone who says that it's impossible as a PvE player to get Cyro achieves just hasn't figured out how to make it work. Same thing for IC (although I will admit that there is more toxicity there from PvPers toward a lone ranger PvE player, I suspect Tel Var has something to do with it).

Also, loved your posts on here, and 150% agree. Expecting to get achieves for content you don't like and therefore don't want to do is not okay. You do it as intended, or avoid the content.

The only reason I got the fishing achievement is that green and blue fish used to have to be "used" to register as caught. So I made an AD toon to catch them and put them in the bank for my DC main...

Morgha_Kul · May 2021

AlnilamE wrote: »

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

Ok... here's what I'm seeing.

PvP exists only in Cyrodiil (or duels in any zone). If PvP players want to expand that to having PvP exlusive copies of all zones... what would that do? It would spread out the already small PvP community over even MORE area... making it nearly impossible for PvP players to actually do any PvP. So, let's stop trying to push that notion.

PvP players don't want a PvE version of Cyrodiil... because it will take PvE players out of the PvP zone? What I see there is PvP players lamenting they don't have easy targets to kill that can't fight back. Remember, most PvE players will be there alone, and/or will not have optimized gear. More, they won't be as practiced as PvP players are maximizing dps or defenses. My characters average between 5-10k dps. How would I have ANY hope of competing with a PvP built character doing 100k+ dps? The answer is I wouldn't. Therefore, I must conclude that the only reason PvP players would object to PvE players having an option to NOT enter the PvP zone is that they would lose the risk free targets. Such players aren't really interested in actual PvP, just easy kills.

There's not enough PvE content in Cyrodiil? That's already been demonstrated to not be true, but let's suppose it IS, for the sake of argument. Having a sizable zone with nothing of substance in it means it's an area that can be ADDED to by development, after the fact. In a sense, that's kind of the whole point of an MMO... that the world of the game exist independently of content.

In short, I see no valid reason NOT to make a PvE verson of Cyrodiil.

Take out the rewards from that PVE version, or substitute different rewards, and I agree with you. Have your PVE-only zone.

Because you missed one objection: I want you to play the zone as intended if you want the rewards intended for that zone

If you want Master Angler, you should fish in PvPvE Cyrodiil, as the Devs intended.

If you want Tamriel Skyshard Hunter, you should get your skyshards from PvPvE Cyrodiil, as the Devs intended.

If you want the lead for the Malacath's Band of Brutality part, you should kill bosses in PvPvE Imperial City, as the Devs intended.

If you want event tickets for Midyear Mayhem, a event celebrating all things PVP, you darned well better be doing your dailies in the PvPvE Cyrodiil and Imperial City, as the Devs intended.

If that's something you can agree with, great!

If not, then it starts to look like just another request to get the rewards of a PvPvE zone with none of the risk of PVP.

I would agree with that, PvP rewards should be available only to PvP. However, there are some PvP-only rewards, notably cosmetic things (which are the bread and butter of RPers, who DON'T PvP), that should be made available to PvE players.

And most of these cosmetics are either PvP related, or they have alternatives that can be found in PvE.

Cosmetic things aren't PvP related insofar as they don't do anything to improve your performance. That said, there are undoubtedly SOME cosmetic things that should remain exclusive to PvP (such as the Emperor's outfit).

Reaper_00 wrote: »

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

Therefore, I must conclude that the only reason PvP players would object to PvE players having an option to NOT enter the PvP zone is that they would lose the risk free targets. Such players aren't really interested in actual PvP, just easy kills.

Your conclusion is incorrect. I'm a healer in Cyrodiill (so I don't kill anyone) and I object to having a PVE version. Why? Because it diminishes the achievements of everyone else who was able to clear the PVE content in Cyrodill while putting themselves at risk of PVP.

Not wanting to do something is not the same as not being able to do something.

That sounds like sour grapes to me. You don't want someone else to have something because you didn't have it.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Minyassa wrote: »

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

Ok... here's what I'm seeing.

PvP exists only in Cyrodiil (or duels in any zone). If PvP players want to expand that to having PvP exlusive copies of all zones... what would that do? It would spread out the already small PvP community over even MORE area... making it nearly impossible for PvP players to actually do any PvP. So, let's stop trying to push that notion.

PvP players don't want a PvE version of Cyrodiil... because it will take PvE players out of the PvP zone? What I see there is PvP players lamenting they don't have easy targets to kill that can't fight back. Remember, most PvE players will be there alone, and/or will not have optimized gear. More, they won't be as practiced as PvP players are maximizing dps or defenses. My characters average between 5-10k dps. How would I have ANY hope of competing with a PvP built character doing 100k+ dps? The answer is I wouldn't. Therefore, I must conclude that the only reason PvP players would object to PvE players having an option to NOT enter the PvP zone is that they would lose the risk free targets. Such players aren't really interested in actual PvP, just easy kills.

There's not enough PvE content in Cyrodiil? That's already been demonstrated to not be true, but let's suppose it IS, for the sake of argument. Having a sizable zone with nothing of substance in it means it's an area that can be ADDED to by development, after the fact. In a sense, that's kind of the whole point of an MMO... that the world of the game exist independently of content.

In short, I see no valid reason NOT to make a PvE verson of Cyrodiil.

Take out the rewards from that PVE version, or substitute different rewards, and I agree with you. Have your PVE-only zone.

Because you missed one objection: I want you to play the zone as intended if you want the rewards intended for that zone

If you want Master Angler, you should fish in PvPvE Cyrodiil, as the Devs intended.

If you want Tamriel Skyshard Hunter, you should get your skyshards from PvPvE Cyrodiil, as the Devs intended.

If you want the lead for the Malacath's Band of Brutality part, you should kill bosses in PvPvE Imperial City, as the Devs intended.

If you want event tickets for Midyear Mayhem, a event celebrating all things PVP, you darned well better be doing your dailies in the PvPvE Cyrodiil and Imperial City, as the Devs intended.

If that's something you can agree with, great!

If not, then it starts to look like just another request to get the rewards of a PvPvE zone with none of the risk of PVP.

I would agree with that, PvP rewards should be available only to PvP. However, there are some PvP-only rewards, notably cosmetic things (which are the bread and butter of RPers, who DON'T PvP), that should be made available to PvE players.

The argument to that is always going to be "they are available to PvE players, they just have to do PvP." And it will never matter what type of play someone is into, the choice is forever going to be "do something you hate or suck it up and go without." That's what it all boils down to in the end.

That's correct, because that is how ESO and indeed most games are designed.

You play the game as intended, including doing content you dislike, in order to get the rewards. You don't say "I hate X content, can I get the same rewards for not doing the content I hate?"

Well, okay, some people on the forums DO say exactly that. See my example about housing enthusiasts asking why they have to do a trial in order to get the boat furnishing they want. Or law-abiding roleplayers complaining they couldn't get event tickets from the TG/DB events. This isn't just a PVP-hater thing, which only goes to show that it is how ESO is designed. What this is, is the understandable, but flawed desire of players to avoid content they dislike while still getting everything they want. A proverb about the having and eating of cakes to mind. Of course some players want it. Equally obviously, the Devs don't cater to it.

For example, let's look at a cosmetic rewards that are genuinely locked behind PVP: Legate Black dye, Battlegrounds Style pages, and the Emperor costume.

@Morgha_Kul, would you say that PVEers are unfairly deprived of those cosmetics? That they should have PVE-only opportunities to earn cosmetics that are locked behind doing a ton of Alliance War activities in a PvPvE zone, fighting in a ton of Battlegrounds, or being the top-scoring player of your faction when they capture the six ring keeps, respectively? "ZOS, I want to roleplay as the Emperor, so I need the costume, please give it to me!"

Would you then turn around and say that PVP-only players should be able to earn cosmetics that are locked behind PVE group content? I think that Captain Varanis Arano would look smashing running around Cyrodiil on the Sunspire Champion Senche-Lion while wearing the Godslayer title, even though my chances of completing Sunspire Godslayer and the rest of the Sunspire achievements is virtually nil, probably about as good as the chance of a PVP-hating player doing Battlegrounds long enough to get all the Style pages.

And if you say yes to both, then have you really grappled with why ZOS effectively says "No thanks, do the content if you want the rewards"?

It is strongly to ZOS' benefit to put rewards of different types, including cosmetics, behind different types of content in ESO. Most players will try an awful lot of different things for cosmetics and that's exactly what ZOS wants. Not every player will, but they are a minority, and the benefits of handing that minority a skip button doesn't outweigh the benefits of getting most players to try out different content.

It sucks to be in the minority, sittting there like "Whelp, I guess I'm never getting that Emperor costume because I hate PVP and there's no way I'm getting it." Because let's be honest, you aren't going to get it the correct way, and ZOS isn't going to hand it to you. (And to be fair, I'm not going to get it either, because I'm neither that good at PVP nor willing to lose sleep trying for the title, even though I'd love to roleplay as the Empress.)

The conclusion I'm coming to is that when people say "Sure, I'll accept no rewards" what they really mean is "Sure, I'll accept no PVP rewards, which doesn't include any of things I really want that can currently only be earned with the risk of PVP in a PvPvE zone."

Not pointing fingers at anyone in particular here. So much as paraphrasing stuff I've heard on similar threads in years past: Some people want the skyshards - "Oh, skyshards in Cyrodiil are PVE rewards just like they are in Bleakrock even though the zones have completely different rulesets!" Some people want fish - "How are fish tied to PVP, even though the Devs put fish in a PvPvE zone and all the ocean fish are right in front of AD'S home gate?" Some people want cosmetics. I listed three of them above. If you had a different example in mind, I'd be happy to discuss it. "I want to flex the Savior of Nirn title, so I should get the credit for closing Dark anchors in war-torn Cyrodiil even though I'm in a PVE-safe zone where there is no war and no enemy players to fight me like the Devs intended!"

That's not how that works. That's not how the Devs designed ESO and its PvPvE zones. We all know that, and asking for it to be otherwise is done out of the earnest desire to skip playing the game as the Devs intended because of genuine dislike for the intended content.

And so it turns out that, yes, this really was just another request to get the rewards of a PvPvE zone with none of the risk of PVP.

You want me to play the game a certain way. Why does it matter to you how I play? Why does it matter to you if I get Master Angler or some other accolade? How does it affect your gameplay if I get the skyshards in Cyrodiil?

This is a mentality I see a lot in these threads... Honestly, if someone wants something in the game and it's not going to affect how I play, I have NO objection. You want PvP copies of every zone? Sure, I won't use them, and I think they're a bad idea, but if you want that I see no reason to deny you because it doesn't affect me. I say I want a PvE Cyrodiil... and you say I shouldn't have that because... you don't want me to have it? It's not going to affect you because I'm not in the PvP version. You're losing nothing if they make a PvE version of the zone...

SilverBride wrote: »

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

PvP players who dislike PvE are still ABLE to do the PvE content with comparative ease. PvE players who dislike PvP are completely unable to do the PvP content.

No one is completely unable to do PvP content. They may not like it. They may not be good at it. But they are able to do it.

Somehow I knew someone would be pedantic about this comment. I should have put a "Many or most" to start that second sentence. Sure, anyone could do it. I could play in an NHL game... but would I want to? They would score on every shot, or injure me if I happened to get in the way. It would be no fun at all... and this is a point people seem to miss. This is a GAME, it's supposed to be FUN. Keep this in mind. I'm not playing for YOUR fun, I'm playing for MY fun, as we all are.

I'll just point out one other thing. PvP players wanting PvP rewards don't have to do PvE content. Everything you want from PvP is found in that one zone. PvE players are required to go into the PvP zone for PvE content.

A PvE Cyrodiil takes nothing away from the PvP players, so in my mind, there's not a leg for them to stand on. If it's not going to harm your play, why object to it?

Hydra9268 · May 2021

Feaky wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

Vasoka wrote: »

Hydra9268 wrote: »

I'll toss my vote into the hat for this. Most of Cyrodiil covers Oblivion content. But I don't want to bother with entering a PVP zone. Making a PVE version of the zone without the PVP perks and rewards doesn't take away the quality or value of the area. It makes it more accessible to those of us who merely want to explore it. At present, I have never visited the place since it's PVP. I am prepared for incoming hate.

No, absolutely DON'T ruin the one PVP zone the game has. Go PVE in the other 99.99999% of the game.

Pretend I'm an idiot. Explain to me how having a separate PvE instance of Cyrodiil would ruin the PvP instances of Cyrodiil when they don't have any interaction with one another.

There are so many problems that still need to be addressed to make Cyrodiil playable for PVP. Wasting valuable ZOS resources completely overhauling a PVP zone to make storylines relevant for PVE would further marginalize the attention ZOS gives PVP. Please go play in the 99.999% of the game already geared for PVE players or jump into one of the empty versions of Cyrodiil to explore and quest.

I am also not sure why people are so afraid to jump into a PVP zone. There is literally no penalty for dying other than having to rerun from the closest keep. And you can go hours without encountering opposing players unless you are looking for them.

Who do you think keeps the game financially afloat? It's PVE players. Making PVE Cyrodiil would make Bethesda more money because the zone would offer a new story, new perks, new quest lines, new dungeons, and more. Right now, the zone is just "dead." So copy it into PVE and make lots of money from Crown store purchases and ESO Plus subs. The PVP zone can still remain through some plotline thing like Jyggalag, the Lord of Order, suddenly obtaining the power of time.

LightYagami · May 2021

What I insist is that I'll usually kill on sight in PvP zones. It's not easy to tell who's an alt of a grand overlord and who's a PvEer immediately.

If you enter a PvP zone, you have to be ready for PvP. Similarly, as PvPers, we have to do PvE to get gears in order to to do PvP.
So can we PvPers also request for PvP versions of Summerset, Stonefalls, Craglorn, etc., PvP dungeons, PvP trials?

Now during PvP events, PvEers can get event tickets by doing PvE tasks like killing NPCs or rescuing NPCs.
So can we also request that during PvE events, Event tickets can be obtained by doing PvP tasks?

Hydra9268 · May 2021

VaranisArano wrote: »

Minyassa wrote: »

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

Ok... here's what I'm seeing.

PvP exists only in Cyrodiil (or duels in any zone). If PvP players want to expand that to having PvP exlusive copies of all zones... what would that do? It would spread out the already small PvP community over even MORE area... making it nearly impossible for PvP players to actually do any PvP. So, let's stop trying to push that notion.

PvP players don't want a PvE version of Cyrodiil... because it will take PvE players out of the PvP zone? What I see there is PvP players lamenting they don't have easy targets to kill that can't fight back. Remember, most PvE players will be there alone, and/or will not have optimized gear. More, they won't be as practiced as PvP players are maximizing dps or defenses. My characters average between 5-10k dps. How would I have ANY hope of competing with a PvP built character doing 100k+ dps? The answer is I wouldn't. Therefore, I must conclude that the only reason PvP players would object to PvE players having an option to NOT enter the PvP zone is that they would lose the risk free targets. Such players aren't really interested in actual PvP, just easy kills.

There's not enough PvE content in Cyrodiil? That's already been demonstrated to not be true, but let's suppose it IS, for the sake of argument. Having a sizable zone with nothing of substance in it means it's an area that can be ADDED to by development, after the fact. In a sense, that's kind of the whole point of an MMO... that the world of the game exist independently of content.

In short, I see no valid reason NOT to make a PvE verson of Cyrodiil.

Take out the rewards from that PVE version, or substitute different rewards, and I agree with you. Have your PVE-only zone.

Because you missed one objection: I want you to play the zone as intended if you want the rewards intended for that zone

If you want Master Angler, you should fish in PvPvE Cyrodiil, as the Devs intended.

If you want Tamriel Skyshard Hunter, you should get your skyshards from PvPvE Cyrodiil, as the Devs intended.

If you want the lead for the Malacath's Band of Brutality part, you should kill bosses in PvPvE Imperial City, as the Devs intended.

If you want event tickets for Midyear Mayhem, a event celebrating all things PVP, you darned well better be doing your dailies in the PvPvE Cyrodiil and Imperial City, as the Devs intended.

If that's something you can agree with, great!

If not, then it starts to look like just another request to get the rewards of a PvPvE zone with none of the risk of PVP.

I would agree with that, PvP rewards should be available only to PvP. However, there are some PvP-only rewards, notably cosmetic things (which are the bread and butter of RPers, who DON'T PvP), that should be made available to PvE players.

The argument to that is always going to be "they are available to PvE players, they just have to do PvP." And it will never matter what type of play someone is into, the choice is forever going to be "do something you hate or suck it up and go without." That's what it all boils down to in the end.

That's correct, because that is how ESO and indeed most games are designed.

You play the game as intended, including doing content you dislike, in order to get the rewards. You don't say "I hate X content, can I get the same rewards for not doing the content I hate?"

WOW's player base said the same things about people constantly asking for vanilla/classic on their forums. Requests for vanilla were met with the same cliched responses: "Blizzard's time is better spent elsewhere (e.g., on my thing that I like more)," "vanilla is dead," "it'll fragment the user base," "play the current game!," "people will play for two months then drop their subscription and WOW will die." None of those things happened. Classic ended up becoming a monster hit for Blizzard and made the game more successful.

I'm saying cloning Cyrodiil into a PVE zone with dungeons, trials (sure, why not!), side quests, and an all-new storyline that features the Lord of Order, Jyggalag, who has obtained the ability to control time (the good bet Hermaeus Mora has something to do with it, although the reasons remain unknown). The story could reach a climatic conclusion on a new ESO zone, The Shivering Isles (Jyggalag's plane of Oblivion). Meanwhile, Jyggalag has visited Kvatch and set up a stable time portal that teleports players to a PVP Cyrodiil revamped with all new PVP challenges (there's a story that ties the time portal with his new power).

Athan1 · May 2021

It's actually fun to PvE in a PvP zone. I'm saying this as an almost exclusive PvEr. The thrills of sneaking around to fish and 100% the zone were real. It was frustrating but also funny when players killed me near fishing holes or skyshards

Hydra9268 · May 2021

zvavi wrote: »

I never understood the need for Cyro PvE zone. Cyro is huge, and even though I don't mind a bit of PvP, only the amount of time on horse from point to point turns me away from it. So, generally reasons not to do PvE cyro:
1. The quests in the zone are boring fetch quests, better use the resources to create a new PvE zone with proper quests and story and new rewards.
2. As I mentioned, Cyro is huge, making it a PvE zone means 1, long, riding simulator, not really engaging gameplay, better just do a new PvE zone with proper quests and story and new rewards.
3. Even now you can already go into Cyro (one of the less popular campaigns) and just walk to your PvE objective, and rarely will you even meet a new player, better do a new PvE zone with proper quests and story and new rewards.
4. As others mentioned, most of the PvP community currently are people that were PvE only, ended up somehow in PvP group while going to Cyro for the PvE rewards, which means that the cross between PvP and PvE does affect the PvP liveliness in game, therefore better do a new PvE zone with proper quests and story and new rewards.
5. The current PvPvE rewards are there as PvPvE rewards, which is fair, so since you will need new rewards for the new Cyro zone (which is as mentioned in 2, a huge horsing simulator), better do a new PvE zone with proper quests and story and new rewards.
conclusion:
better do a new PvE zone with proper quests and story and new rewards.

Break it up into two zones: either north and south, or east and west. Then each zone can get a lot of attention.

The Imperial City would also be cloned as a PVE zone but would remain separate.

VaranisArano · May 2021

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

Ok... here's what I'm seeing.

PvP exists only in Cyrodiil (or duels in any zone). If PvP players want to expand that to having PvP exlusive copies of all zones... what would that do? It would spread out the already small PvP community over even MORE area... making it nearly impossible for PvP players to actually do any PvP. So, let's stop trying to push that notion.

PvP players don't want a PvE version of Cyrodiil... because it will take PvE players out of the PvP zone? What I see there is PvP players lamenting they don't have easy targets to kill that can't fight back. Remember, most PvE players will be there alone, and/or will not have optimized gear. More, they won't be as practiced as PvP players are maximizing dps or defenses. My characters average between 5-10k dps. How would I have ANY hope of competing with a PvP built character doing 100k+ dps? The answer is I wouldn't. Therefore, I must conclude that the only reason PvP players would object to PvE players having an option to NOT enter the PvP zone is that they would lose the risk free targets. Such players aren't really interested in actual PvP, just easy kills.

There's not enough PvE content in Cyrodiil? That's already been demonstrated to not be true, but let's suppose it IS, for the sake of argument. Having a sizable zone with nothing of substance in it means it's an area that can be ADDED to by development, after the fact. In a sense, that's kind of the whole point of an MMO... that the world of the game exist independently of content.

In short, I see no valid reason NOT to make a PvE verson of Cyrodiil.

Take out the rewards from that PVE version, or substitute different rewards, and I agree with you. Have your PVE-only zone.

Because you missed one objection: I want you to play the zone as intended if you want the rewards intended for that zone

If you want Master Angler, you should fish in PvPvE Cyrodiil, as the Devs intended.

If you want Tamriel Skyshard Hunter, you should get your skyshards from PvPvE Cyrodiil, as the Devs intended.

If you want the lead for the Malacath's Band of Brutality part, you should kill bosses in PvPvE Imperial City, as the Devs intended.

If you want event tickets for Midyear Mayhem, a event celebrating all things PVP, you darned well better be doing your dailies in the PvPvE Cyrodiil and Imperial City, as the Devs intended.

If that's something you can agree with, great!

If not, then it starts to look like just another request to get the rewards of a PvPvE zone with none of the risk of PVP.

I would agree with that, PvP rewards should be available only to PvP. However, there are some PvP-only rewards, notably cosmetic things (which are the bread and butter of RPers, who DON'T PvP), that should be made available to PvE players.

And most of these cosmetics are either PvP related, or they have alternatives that can be found in PvE.

Cosmetic things aren't PvP related insofar as they don't do anything to improve your performance. That said, there are undoubtedly SOME cosmetic things that should remain exclusive to PvP (such as the Emperor's outfit).

Reaper_00 wrote: »

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

Therefore, I must conclude that the only reason PvP players would object to PvE players having an option to NOT enter the PvP zone is that they would lose the risk free targets. Such players aren't really interested in actual PvP, just easy kills.

Your conclusion is incorrect. I'm a healer in Cyrodiill (so I don't kill anyone) and I object to having a PVE version. Why? Because it diminishes the achievements of everyone else who was able to clear the PVE content in Cyrodill while putting themselves at risk of PVP.

Not wanting to do something is not the same as not being able to do something.

That sounds like sour grapes to me. You don't want someone else to have something because you didn't have it.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Minyassa wrote: »

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

Ok... here's what I'm seeing.

PvP exists only in Cyrodiil (or duels in any zone). If PvP players want to expand that to having PvP exlusive copies of all zones... what would that do? It would spread out the already small PvP community over even MORE area... making it nearly impossible for PvP players to actually do any PvP. So, let's stop trying to push that notion.

PvP players don't want a PvE version of Cyrodiil... because it will take PvE players out of the PvP zone? What I see there is PvP players lamenting they don't have easy targets to kill that can't fight back. Remember, most PvE players will be there alone, and/or will not have optimized gear. More, they won't be as practiced as PvP players are maximizing dps or defenses. My characters average between 5-10k dps. How would I have ANY hope of competing with a PvP built character doing 100k+ dps? The answer is I wouldn't. Therefore, I must conclude that the only reason PvP players would object to PvE players having an option to NOT enter the PvP zone is that they would lose the risk free targets. Such players aren't really interested in actual PvP, just easy kills.

There's not enough PvE content in Cyrodiil? That's already been demonstrated to not be true, but let's suppose it IS, for the sake of argument. Having a sizable zone with nothing of substance in it means it's an area that can be ADDED to by development, after the fact. In a sense, that's kind of the whole point of an MMO... that the world of the game exist independently of content.

In short, I see no valid reason NOT to make a PvE verson of Cyrodiil.

Take out the rewards from that PVE version, or substitute different rewards, and I agree with you. Have your PVE-only zone.

Because you missed one objection: I want you to play the zone as intended if you want the rewards intended for that zone

If you want Master Angler, you should fish in PvPvE Cyrodiil, as the Devs intended.

If you want Tamriel Skyshard Hunter, you should get your skyshards from PvPvE Cyrodiil, as the Devs intended.

If you want the lead for the Malacath's Band of Brutality part, you should kill bosses in PvPvE Imperial City, as the Devs intended.

If you want event tickets for Midyear Mayhem, a event celebrating all things PVP, you darned well better be doing your dailies in the PvPvE Cyrodiil and Imperial City, as the Devs intended.

If that's something you can agree with, great!

If not, then it starts to look like just another request to get the rewards of a PvPvE zone with none of the risk of PVP.

I would agree with that, PvP rewards should be available only to PvP. However, there are some PvP-only rewards, notably cosmetic things (which are the bread and butter of RPers, who DON'T PvP), that should be made available to PvE players.

The argument to that is always going to be "they are available to PvE players, they just have to do PvP." And it will never matter what type of play someone is into, the choice is forever going to be "do something you hate or suck it up and go without." That's what it all boils down to in the end.

That's correct, because that is how ESO and indeed most games are designed.

You play the game as intended, including doing content you dislike, in order to get the rewards. You don't say "I hate X content, can I get the same rewards for not doing the content I hate?"

Well, okay, some people on the forums DO say exactly that. See my example about housing enthusiasts asking why they have to do a trial in order to get the boat furnishing they want. Or law-abiding roleplayers complaining they couldn't get event tickets from the TG/DB events. This isn't just a PVP-hater thing, which only goes to show that it is how ESO is designed. What this is, is the understandable, but flawed desire of players to avoid content they dislike while still getting everything they want. A proverb about the having and eating of cakes to mind. Of course some players want it. Equally obviously, the Devs don't cater to it.

For example, let's look at a cosmetic rewards that are genuinely locked behind PVP: Legate Black dye, Battlegrounds Style pages, and the Emperor costume.

@Morgha_Kul, would you say that PVEers are unfairly deprived of those cosmetics? That they should have PVE-only opportunities to earn cosmetics that are locked behind doing a ton of Alliance War activities in a PvPvE zone, fighting in a ton of Battlegrounds, or being the top-scoring player of your faction when they capture the six ring keeps, respectively? "ZOS, I want to roleplay as the Emperor, so I need the costume, please give it to me!"

Would you then turn around and say that PVP-only players should be able to earn cosmetics that are locked behind PVE group content? I think that Captain Varanis Arano would look smashing running around Cyrodiil on the Sunspire Champion Senche-Lion while wearing the Godslayer title, even though my chances of completing Sunspire Godslayer and the rest of the Sunspire achievements is virtually nil, probably about as good as the chance of a PVP-hating player doing Battlegrounds long enough to get all the Style pages.

And if you say yes to both, then have you really grappled with why ZOS effectively says "No thanks, do the content if you want the rewards"?

It is strongly to ZOS' benefit to put rewards of different types, including cosmetics, behind different types of content in ESO. Most players will try an awful lot of different things for cosmetics and that's exactly what ZOS wants. Not every player will, but they are a minority, and the benefits of handing that minority a skip button doesn't outweigh the benefits of getting most players to try out different content.

It sucks to be in the minority, sittting there like "Whelp, I guess I'm never getting that Emperor costume because I hate PVP and there's no way I'm getting it." Because let's be honest, you aren't going to get it the correct way, and ZOS isn't going to hand it to you. (And to be fair, I'm not going to get it either, because I'm neither that good at PVP nor willing to lose sleep trying for the title, even though I'd love to roleplay as the Empress.)

The conclusion I'm coming to is that when people say "Sure, I'll accept no rewards" what they really mean is "Sure, I'll accept no PVP rewards, which doesn't include any of things I really want that can currently only be earned with the risk of PVP in a PvPvE zone."

Not pointing fingers at anyone in particular here. So much as paraphrasing stuff I've heard on similar threads in years past: Some people want the skyshards - "Oh, skyshards in Cyrodiil are PVE rewards just like they are in Bleakrock even though the zones have completely different rulesets!" Some people want fish - "How are fish tied to PVP, even though the Devs put fish in a PvPvE zone and all the ocean fish are right in front of AD'S home gate?" Some people want cosmetics. I listed three of them above. If you had a different example in mind, I'd be happy to discuss it. "I want to flex the Savior of Nirn title, so I should get the credit for closing Dark anchors in war-torn Cyrodiil even though I'm in a PVE-safe zone where there is no war and no enemy players to fight me like the Devs intended!"

That's not how that works. That's not how the Devs designed ESO and its PvPvE zones. We all know that, and asking for it to be otherwise is done out of the earnest desire to skip playing the game as the Devs intended because of genuine dislike for the intended content.

And so it turns out that, yes, this really was just another request to get the rewards of a PvPvE zone with none of the risk of PVP.

You want me to play the game a certain way. Why does it matter to you how I play? Why does it matter to you if I get Master Angler or some other accolade? How does it affect your gameplay if I get the skyshards in Cyrodiil?

This is a mentality I see a lot in these threads... Honestly, if someone wants something in the game and it's not going to affect how I play, I have NO objection. You want PvP copies of every zone? Sure, I won't use them, and I think they're a bad idea, but if you want that I see no reason to deny you because it doesn't affect me. I say I want a PvE Cyrodiil... and you say I shouldn't have that because... you don't want me to have it? It's not going to affect you because I'm not in the PvP version. You're losing nothing if they make a PvE version of the zone.

"You want me to play the game a certain way."

Look, I want everyone to play the way the Devs intended if they want the rewards. I did. Lots of players did and lots of players still do. Yet players asking for the rewards of PvPvE zones in PVE-only safety want the Devs to give them an easy out for their skyshards, their Master Angler title, and PvPvE cosmetics, which I notice you only addressed Emperor.

I'm against handing players an easy out to get the same rewards as the people who played the game as intended. To repeat myself, there's something ludicrous about "I want to flex the Savior of Nirn title, so I should get the credit for closing Dark anchors in war-torn Cyrodiil even though I'm in a PVE-safe zone where there is no war and no enemy players to fight me like the Devs intended!"

Maybe you are okay with that, but I am not.

"How does it impact you if players don't play the way the Devs intended?"

I suggest you think less in terms of how it impacts me personally, and think about how it impacts the Devs when players don't play ESO as is intended. Because I understand that you don't like it, but it's pretty clear that the Devs want most of their playerbase to have some basic experience in PVE and PVP, and strongly encourage players to try out PvPvE zones through events and other exclusive rewards. Like, oh, skyshards, leads, titles, and a few cosmetics that are exclusive to PvPvE zones. They balance PVE and PVP together - it only benefits the Devs to get most players to experience both. The minority who refuse to get out of their comfort zone are just that, a minority.

Once your question is rephrased in that light, I think it's pretty clear why the Devs have effectively said "No, you will play the game as intended if you want the rewards. Here, have another Midyear Mayhem. Here, have another Imperial City gear set." And so on.

(As for how it would impact ME, personally, I would have never set foot in PVP if I'd been offered an easy way out to Master Angler, and other rewards. As we know from the bugged random dungeon rewards where everyone wanted Random Normal Fungal Grotto 1, if you offer an easy way out and the same rewards, the vast majority of people will take the easy way out even if they otherwise would have gone to PvPvE Cyrodiil.)

"But seriously, are you just saying it because you don't want me to have nice things?"

I'm saying that if you want nice things, you need to play as the Devs intended. If you don't, you haven't earned the same rewards as everyone who did. If you dislike the content so much that you don't want to play as intended, then you will miss out on the rewards.

See also the examples I cited with housing furnishings and TG/DB event tickets.This isn't just a "I dislike PVP" thing where the PVPers want to force you to PVP. This is a design decision made by the Devs, and frankly, it shouldn't be surprising The Devs put rewards in different types of content to encourage most players to experience all the content the game has to offer. This is pretty basic game design. A minority of players will refuse to do certain types of content even for rewards they really want, but they are just that, a minority.

I don't expect to convince anyone to stop asking for the same rewards exclusive to PvPvE zones to be in the safe PVE-only zone they want. That's because most of those players believe that the Devs should not expect them to do content they dislike. They believe that the Devs owe them an easy out to get those same rewards because they should never have to play content they dislike. This attitude isn't just a PVP-disliking player thing; I think I listed enough examples to prove that this is an attitude shared by a minority of players across multiple playstyle niches.

No one wants to accept that the Devs DO expect them to play content they dislike if they want the same rewards as players who played it as intended, because that would require accepting that they can either suck it up and play content they dislike, or do without. We see again and again that they'd rather ask for that easy way out because they dislike the content that much.

The Devs, on the other hand, correctly continue to expect that the majority of the player base will try out different playstyles in order to get the rewards they want, and that the minority will either suck it up and play the game as intended, or will do without. It's to the benefit of ESO that they continue to do so, and they know it - just look at Antiquities and the coming Seals of Endeavors if you doubt that.

jaws343 · May 2021

VaranisArano wrote: »

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

Ok... here's what I'm seeing.

PvP exists only in Cyrodiil (or duels in any zone). If PvP players want to expand that to having PvP exlusive copies of all zones... what would that do? It would spread out the already small PvP community over even MORE area... making it nearly impossible for PvP players to actually do any PvP. So, let's stop trying to push that notion.

PvP players don't want a PvE version of Cyrodiil... because it will take PvE players out of the PvP zone? What I see there is PvP players lamenting they don't have easy targets to kill that can't fight back. Remember, most PvE players will be there alone, and/or will not have optimized gear. More, they won't be as practiced as PvP players are maximizing dps or defenses. My characters average between 5-10k dps. How would I have ANY hope of competing with a PvP built character doing 100k+ dps? The answer is I wouldn't. Therefore, I must conclude that the only reason PvP players would object to PvE players having an option to NOT enter the PvP zone is that they would lose the risk free targets. Such players aren't really interested in actual PvP, just easy kills.

There's not enough PvE content in Cyrodiil? That's already been demonstrated to not be true, but let's suppose it IS, for the sake of argument. Having a sizable zone with nothing of substance in it means it's an area that can be ADDED to by development, after the fact. In a sense, that's kind of the whole point of an MMO... that the world of the game exist independently of content.

In short, I see no valid reason NOT to make a PvE verson of Cyrodiil.

Take out the rewards from that PVE version, or substitute different rewards, and I agree with you. Have your PVE-only zone.

Because you missed one objection: I want you to play the zone as intended if you want the rewards intended for that zone

If you want Master Angler, you should fish in PvPvE Cyrodiil, as the Devs intended.

If you want Tamriel Skyshard Hunter, you should get your skyshards from PvPvE Cyrodiil, as the Devs intended.

If you want the lead for the Malacath's Band of Brutality part, you should kill bosses in PvPvE Imperial City, as the Devs intended.

If you want event tickets for Midyear Mayhem, a event celebrating all things PVP, you darned well better be doing your dailies in the PvPvE Cyrodiil and Imperial City, as the Devs intended.

If that's something you can agree with, great!

If not, then it starts to look like just another request to get the rewards of a PvPvE zone with none of the risk of PVP.

I would agree with that, PvP rewards should be available only to PvP. However, there are some PvP-only rewards, notably cosmetic things (which are the bread and butter of RPers, who DON'T PvP), that should be made available to PvE players.

And most of these cosmetics are either PvP related, or they have alternatives that can be found in PvE.

Cosmetic things aren't PvP related insofar as they don't do anything to improve your performance. That said, there are undoubtedly SOME cosmetic things that should remain exclusive to PvP (such as the Emperor's outfit).

Reaper_00 wrote: »

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

Therefore, I must conclude that the only reason PvP players would object to PvE players having an option to NOT enter the PvP zone is that they would lose the risk free targets. Such players aren't really interested in actual PvP, just easy kills.

Your conclusion is incorrect. I'm a healer in Cyrodiill (so I don't kill anyone) and I object to having a PVE version. Why? Because it diminishes the achievements of everyone else who was able to clear the PVE content in Cyrodill while putting themselves at risk of PVP.

Not wanting to do something is not the same as not being able to do something.

That sounds like sour grapes to me. You don't want someone else to have something because you didn't have it.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Minyassa wrote: »

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

Ok... here's what I'm seeing.

PvP exists only in Cyrodiil (or duels in any zone). If PvP players want to expand that to having PvP exlusive copies of all zones... what would that do? It would spread out the already small PvP community over even MORE area... making it nearly impossible for PvP players to actually do any PvP. So, let's stop trying to push that notion.

PvP players don't want a PvE version of Cyrodiil... because it will take PvE players out of the PvP zone? What I see there is PvP players lamenting they don't have easy targets to kill that can't fight back. Remember, most PvE players will be there alone, and/or will not have optimized gear. More, they won't be as practiced as PvP players are maximizing dps or defenses. My characters average between 5-10k dps. How would I have ANY hope of competing with a PvP built character doing 100k+ dps? The answer is I wouldn't. Therefore, I must conclude that the only reason PvP players would object to PvE players having an option to NOT enter the PvP zone is that they would lose the risk free targets. Such players aren't really interested in actual PvP, just easy kills.

There's not enough PvE content in Cyrodiil? That's already been demonstrated to not be true, but let's suppose it IS, for the sake of argument. Having a sizable zone with nothing of substance in it means it's an area that can be ADDED to by development, after the fact. In a sense, that's kind of the whole point of an MMO... that the world of the game exist independently of content.

In short, I see no valid reason NOT to make a PvE verson of Cyrodiil.

Take out the rewards from that PVE version, or substitute different rewards, and I agree with you. Have your PVE-only zone.

Because you missed one objection: I want you to play the zone as intended if you want the rewards intended for that zone

If you want Master Angler, you should fish in PvPvE Cyrodiil, as the Devs intended.

If you want Tamriel Skyshard Hunter, you should get your skyshards from PvPvE Cyrodiil, as the Devs intended.

If you want the lead for the Malacath's Band of Brutality part, you should kill bosses in PvPvE Imperial City, as the Devs intended.

If you want event tickets for Midyear Mayhem, a event celebrating all things PVP, you darned well better be doing your dailies in the PvPvE Cyrodiil and Imperial City, as the Devs intended.

If that's something you can agree with, great!

If not, then it starts to look like just another request to get the rewards of a PvPvE zone with none of the risk of PVP.

I would agree with that, PvP rewards should be available only to PvP. However, there are some PvP-only rewards, notably cosmetic things (which are the bread and butter of RPers, who DON'T PvP), that should be made available to PvE players.

The argument to that is always going to be "they are available to PvE players, they just have to do PvP." And it will never matter what type of play someone is into, the choice is forever going to be "do something you hate or suck it up and go without." That's what it all boils down to in the end.

That's correct, because that is how ESO and indeed most games are designed.

You play the game as intended, including doing content you dislike, in order to get the rewards. You don't say "I hate X content, can I get the same rewards for not doing the content I hate?"

Well, okay, some people on the forums DO say exactly that. See my example about housing enthusiasts asking why they have to do a trial in order to get the boat furnishing they want. Or law-abiding roleplayers complaining they couldn't get event tickets from the TG/DB events. This isn't just a PVP-hater thing, which only goes to show that it is how ESO is designed. What this is, is the understandable, but flawed desire of players to avoid content they dislike while still getting everything they want. A proverb about the having and eating of cakes to mind. Of course some players want it. Equally obviously, the Devs don't cater to it.

For example, let's look at a cosmetic rewards that are genuinely locked behind PVP: Legate Black dye, Battlegrounds Style pages, and the Emperor costume.

@Morgha_Kul, would you say that PVEers are unfairly deprived of those cosmetics? That they should have PVE-only opportunities to earn cosmetics that are locked behind doing a ton of Alliance War activities in a PvPvE zone, fighting in a ton of Battlegrounds, or being the top-scoring player of your faction when they capture the six ring keeps, respectively? "ZOS, I want to roleplay as the Emperor, so I need the costume, please give it to me!"

Would you then turn around and say that PVP-only players should be able to earn cosmetics that are locked behind PVE group content? I think that Captain Varanis Arano would look smashing running around Cyrodiil on the Sunspire Champion Senche-Lion while wearing the Godslayer title, even though my chances of completing Sunspire Godslayer and the rest of the Sunspire achievements is virtually nil, probably about as good as the chance of a PVP-hating player doing Battlegrounds long enough to get all the Style pages.

And if you say yes to both, then have you really grappled with why ZOS effectively says "No thanks, do the content if you want the rewards"?

It is strongly to ZOS' benefit to put rewards of different types, including cosmetics, behind different types of content in ESO. Most players will try an awful lot of different things for cosmetics and that's exactly what ZOS wants. Not every player will, but they are a minority, and the benefits of handing that minority a skip button doesn't outweigh the benefits of getting most players to try out different content.

It sucks to be in the minority, sittting there like "Whelp, I guess I'm never getting that Emperor costume because I hate PVP and there's no way I'm getting it." Because let's be honest, you aren't going to get it the correct way, and ZOS isn't going to hand it to you. (And to be fair, I'm not going to get it either, because I'm neither that good at PVP nor willing to lose sleep trying for the title, even though I'd love to roleplay as the Empress.)

The conclusion I'm coming to is that when people say "Sure, I'll accept no rewards" what they really mean is "Sure, I'll accept no PVP rewards, which doesn't include any of things I really want that can currently only be earned with the risk of PVP in a PvPvE zone."

Not pointing fingers at anyone in particular here. So much as paraphrasing stuff I've heard on similar threads in years past: Some people want the skyshards - "Oh, skyshards in Cyrodiil are PVE rewards just like they are in Bleakrock even though the zones have completely different rulesets!" Some people want fish - "How are fish tied to PVP, even though the Devs put fish in a PvPvE zone and all the ocean fish are right in front of AD'S home gate?" Some people want cosmetics. I listed three of them above. If you had a different example in mind, I'd be happy to discuss it. "I want to flex the Savior of Nirn title, so I should get the credit for closing Dark anchors in war-torn Cyrodiil even though I'm in a PVE-safe zone where there is no war and no enemy players to fight me like the Devs intended!"

That's not how that works. That's not how the Devs designed ESO and its PvPvE zones. We all know that, and asking for it to be otherwise is done out of the earnest desire to skip playing the game as the Devs intended because of genuine dislike for the intended content.

And so it turns out that, yes, this really was just another request to get the rewards of a PvPvE zone with none of the risk of PVP.

You want me to play the game a certain way. Why does it matter to you how I play? Why does it matter to you if I get Master Angler or some other accolade? How does it affect your gameplay if I get the skyshards in Cyrodiil?

This is a mentality I see a lot in these threads... Honestly, if someone wants something in the game and it's not going to affect how I play, I have NO objection. You want PvP copies of every zone? Sure, I won't use them, and I think they're a bad idea, but if you want that I see no reason to deny you because it doesn't affect me. I say I want a PvE Cyrodiil... and you say I shouldn't have that because... you don't want me to have it? It's not going to affect you because I'm not in the PvP version. You're losing nothing if they make a PvE version of the zone.

"You want me to play the game a certain way."

Look, I want everyone to play the way the Devs intended if they want the rewards. I did. Lots of players did and lots of players still do. Yet players asking for the rewards of PvPvE zones in PVE-only safety want the Devs to give them an easy out for their skyshards, their Master Angler title, and PvPvE cosmetics, which I notice you only addressed Emperor.

I'm against handing players an easy out to get the same rewards as the people who played the game as intended. To repeat myself, there's something ludicrous about "I want to flex the Savior of Nirn title, so I should get the credit for closing Dark anchors in war-torn Cyrodiil even though I'm in a PVE-safe zone where there is no war and no enemy players to fight me like the Devs intended!"

Maybe you are okay with that, but I am not.

"How does it impact you if players don't play the way the Devs intended?"

I suggest you think less in terms of how it impacts me personally, and think about how it impacts the Devs when players don't play ESO as is intended. Because I understand that you don't like it, but it's pretty clear that the Devs want most of their playerbase to have some basic experience in PVE and PVP, and strongly encourage players to try out PvPvE zones through events and other exclusive rewards. Like, oh, skyshards, leads, titles, and a few cosmetics that are exclusive to PvPvE zones. They balance PVE and PVP together - it only benefits the Devs to get most players to experience both. The minority who refuse to get out of their comfort zone are just that, a minority.

Once your question is rephrased in that light, I think it's pretty clear why the Devs have effectively said "No, you will play the game as intended if you want the rewards. Here, have another Midyear Mayhem. Here, have another Imperial City gear set." And so on.

(As for how it would impact ME, personally, I would have never set foot in PVP if I'd been offered an easy way out to Master Angler, and other rewards. As we know from the bugged random dungeon rewards where everyone wanted Random Normal Fungal Grotto 1, if you offer an easy way out and the same rewards, the vast majority of people will take the easy way out even if they otherwise would have gone to PvPvE Cyrodiil.)

"But seriously, are you just saying it because you don't want me to have nice things?"

I'm saying that if you want nice things, you need to play as the Devs intended. If you don't, you haven't earned the same rewards as everyone who did. If you dislike the content so much that you don't want to play as intended, then you will miss out on the rewards.

See also the examples I cited with housing furnishings and TG/DB event tickets.This isn't just a "I dislike PVP" thing where the PVPers want to force you to PVP. This is a design decision made by the Devs, and frankly, it shouldn't be surprising The Devs put rewards in different types of content to encourage most players to experience all the content the game has to offer. This is pretty basic game design. A minority of players will refuse to do certain types of content even for rewards they really want, but they are just that, a minority.

I don't expect to convince anyone to stop asking for the same rewards exclusive to PvPvE zones to be in the safe PVE-only zone they want. That's because most of those players believe that the Devs should not expect them to do content they dislike. They believe that the Devs owe them an easy out to get those same rewards because they should never have to play content they dislike. This attitude isn't just a PVP-disliking player thing; I think I listed enough examples to prove that this is an attitude shared by a minority of players across multiple playstyle niches.

No one wants to accept that the Devs DO expect them to play content they dislike if they want the same rewards as players who played it as intended, because that would require accepting that they can either suck it up and play content they dislike, or do without. We see again and again that they'd rather ask for that easy way out because they dislike the content that much.

The Devs, on the other hand, correctly continue to expect that the majority of the player base will try out different playstyles in order to get the rewards they want, and that the minority will either suck it up and play the game as intended, or will do without. It's to the benefit of ESO that they continue to do so, and they know it - just look at Antiquities and the coming Seals of Endeavors if you doubt that.

There's also a diminishment of achievement. Handouts to lazy players who don't want to do content diminishes the accomplishments of players who actually did the content to get the same rewards. It's selfish to request the rewards from a game mode a player refuses to engage with. And a player's sentiments towards pvp are wholly irrelevant. Pvp is a part of this game and if players want the rewards that are obtained through risk of pvp they need to get over themselves and do those things or move on from thinking they should get the rewards.