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Oversight: One Shot Builds Still Possible
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sabresandiego_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Also curious as to why the OP has omitted the more burstier sets such as vate 2h, ashen grip and even calurians on his list of "one shot" combo sets. Stacking further penetration at the expense of weapon damage and sustain, on top of sets that provide you barely any weapon damage, some max resources, and no sustain, is going to make your healing weak and your resources dry out fast. Trying to rely entirely on heavy attacks for sustain is risky and unreliable considering the amount of dodge roll spam these days.
And even then, this "one shot" rhetoric seems like a bunch of hyperbole. I would like to see the OP post some numbers to back his claim that using these sets somehow results in easy one shots.
All of the sets you listed are part of one shot builds on live but on PTS are now subject to proc scaling through weapon/spell damage. Master DW and undaunted infiltrator are not affected by scaling, thus allowing you to skip stacking wpn dmg and instead stack penetration with things like maces and krag.
This type of setup has been powerful for years because of how much front loaded burst is on every hit and so it’s funny that the devs let these sets escape the proc scaling changes. Personally, I will likely be running these sets myself. And to those who think master DW + undaunted infiltrator isn’t good -> don’t use it then.Ali Dreadsabre -Necromancer
Ali Sabre -Nightblade0 -
Sanguinor2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭gariondavey wrote: »
How do you know you don't get 275 bonus on players?
It has been patched out with morrowind. Pre morrowind the stealth bonus actually worked against players and combined with the old empower that buffed the next ability instead of the next light attack you could literally oneshot people from cloak with 1 cast of onslaught.Politeness is respecting others.
Courage is doing what is fair.
Modesty is speaking of oneself without vanity.
Self control is keeping calm even when anger rises.
Sincerity is expressing oneself without concealing ones thoughts.
Honor is keeping ones word.0 -
gariondavey✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Sanguinor2 wrote: »gariondavey wrote: »
How do you know you don't get 275 bonus on players?
It has been patched out with morrowind. Pre morrowind the stealth bonus actually worked against players and combined with the old empower that buffed the next ability instead of the next light attack you could literally oneshot people from cloak with 1 cast of onslaught.
I remember videos of that. I don't remember seeing anything in the patch notes about not getting the 275 bonus in PvP, though.PC NA @gariondavey, BG, IC & Cyrodiil Focused Since October 2017 Stamplar (main), Magplar, Magsorc, Stamsorc, StamDK, MagDK, Stamblade, Magblade, Magden, Stamden0 -
xylena_lazarow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭If Cyro ends up full of stealth one shots, that'll be an issue with stealth mechanics more than any specific set, and it will no doubt be addressed for all the casuals zerging the forums. Builds that threaten one shots are fine, so long as they are appropriately fragile themselves, and there is a window to respond to the attempted one shot combo.PC/NA || Cyro/BGs || retired until Dagon brings a new dawn of PvP metas0 -
katorga✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »Also curious as to why the OP has omitted the more burstier sets such as vate 2h, ashen grip and even calurians on his list of "one shot" combo sets. Stacking further penetration at the expense of weapon damage and sustain, on top of sets that provide you barely any weapon damage, some max resources, and no sustain, is going to make your healing weak and your resources dry out fast. Trying to rely entirely on heavy attacks for sustain is risky and unreliable considering the amount of dodge roll spam these days.
And even then, this "one shot" rhetoric seems like a bunch of hyperbole. I would like to see the OP post some numbers to back his claim that using these sets somehow results in easy one shots.
All of the sets you listed are part of one shot builds on live but on PTS are now subject to proc scaling through weapon/spell damage. Master DW and undaunted infiltrator are not affected by scaling, thus allowing you to skip stacking wpn dmg and instead stack penetration with things like maces and krag.
This type of setup has been powerful for years because of how much front loaded burst is on every hit and so it’s funny that the devs let these sets escape the proc scaling changes. Personally, I will likely be running these sets myself. And to those who think master DW + undaunted infiltrator isn’t good -> don’t use it then.
Not effect by scaling could be a negative, meaning I can stack wd and get better results with other sets. But if as good as you say there would be a 100 ytube streamers claiming it as their own super "OP" build. Sounds fun though, I'll have to try it this weekend.0 -
sabresandiego_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Another cool thing about using master DW w/ undaunted infiltrator is that people won’t know what killed them in their death recaps because the sets aren’t listed in the recap. They will just see two heavy attacks, a rending slash, and a couple of enchants going off for what looks like mediocre damage so they think nothing of it. What they don’t realize is that both heavy attacks, the rending, and both infused enchants all hit at the exact same time. What looks like a bunch of 2-3k hits was actually 10-15k instantaneously.
Like I’ve said before, if you think this build sucks then don’t run it. Personally, I’m not going to waste my time trying to stack over 6k weapon damage for other proc sets (which doesn’t help infused weapon enchants anyways) -> when I can run master DW and undaunted infiltrator (back barred) with another primary set of my choice along with malacath and then have the freedom to build my character as desired (such as wearing more heavy armor, optimizing regen, and stacking pen) instead of trying to stack weapon damage . No brainerEdited by sabresandiego_ESO on May 7, 2021 2:54PMAli Dreadsabre -Necromancer
Ali Sabre -Nightblade1 -
Sanguinor2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭gariondavey wrote: »
I remember videos of that. I don't remember seeing anything in the patch notes about not getting the 275 bonus in PvP, though.
Look at the morrowind patch notes. Its in there.Politeness is respecting others.
Courage is doing what is fair.
Modesty is speaking of oneself without vanity.
Self control is keeping calm even when anger rises.
Sincerity is expressing oneself without concealing ones thoughts.
Honor is keeping ones word.2 -
gariondavey✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Sanguinor2 wrote: »gariondavey wrote: »
I remember videos of that. I don't remember seeing anything in the patch notes about not getting the 275 bonus in PvP, though.
Look at the morrowind patch notes. Its in there.
Found it, thanks. Was thinking my 125k onslaught would have that on players, guess it is just 44k or soEdited by gariondavey on May 7, 2021 3:06PMPC NA @gariondavey, BG, IC & Cyrodiil Focused Since October 2017 Stamplar (main), Magplar, Magsorc, Stamsorc, StamDK, MagDK, Stamblade, Magblade, Magden, Stamden0 -
katorga✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭xylena_lazarow wrote: »
I'm not saying they do or don't carry any weight, but one can derive a lot about what is going on scanning through the streamer builds. Just like you can by scanning throught the eso forum thread titles you can get a general "feel" about what is working.Edited by katorga on May 7, 2021 4:17PM1 -
xylena_lazarow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Fair enough, in that case give it a couple weeks after it goes live, and the GOD MODE ONE SHOT 1VX OUTNUMBERED videos featuring this sort of build will come. Will it actually be a problem in a meta where Vatesh 2h builds also do this, and the Vatesh Destro still kills people through walls? That's harder to answer. These things may congeal into one single horrifying god build, and ZOS will nuke the meta yet again.I'm not saying they do or don't carry any weight, but one can derive a lot about what is going on scanning through the streamer builds. Just like you can by scanning throught the eso forum thread titles you can get a general "feel" about what is working.PC/NA || Cyro/BGs || retired until Dagon brings a new dawn of PvP metas2 -
HankTwo✭✭✭✭✭gariondavey wrote: »Sanguinor2 wrote: »gariondavey wrote: »
I remember videos of that. I don't remember seeing anything in the patch notes about not getting the 275 bonus in PvP, though.
Look at the morrowind patch notes. Its in there.
Found it, thanks. Was thinking my 125k onslaught would have that on players, guess it is just 44k or so
If you do 125k crit onslaught on pts with the 275% stealth bonus against PvE mobs it will be ~ 15k against a player in PvP.PC EU
Stam DK, Magden, Magplar, Stamcro, Hybrid Sorc, Magblade & Mag DK0 -
ManDraKE✭✭✭✭✭
✭one shoots or not, master DW has been busted for quite some time imo, specially with things like cristal weapon. But good luck trying to get that nerfed0 -
gariondavey✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭gariondavey wrote: »Sanguinor2 wrote: »gariondavey wrote: »
I remember videos of that. I don't remember seeing anything in the patch notes about not getting the 275 bonus in PvP, though.
Look at the morrowind patch notes. Its in there.
Found it, thanks. Was thinking my 125k onslaught would have that on players, guess it is just 44k or so
If you do 125k crit onslaught on pts with the 275% stealth bonus against PvE mobs it will be ~ 15k against a player in PvP.
It should be about 18-20k on players, assuming they don't have minor + major protectionPC NA @gariondavey, BG, IC & Cyrodiil Focused Since October 2017 Stamplar (main), Magplar, Magsorc, Stamsorc, StamDK, MagDK, Stamblade, Magblade, Magden, Stamden0 -
HankTwo✭✭✭✭✭gariondavey wrote: »gariondavey wrote: »Sanguinor2 wrote: »gariondavey wrote: »
I remember videos of that. I don't remember seeing anything in the patch notes about not getting the 275 bonus in PvP, though.
Look at the morrowind patch notes. Its in there.
Found it, thanks. Was thinking my 125k onslaught would have that on players, guess it is just 44k or so
If you do 125k crit onslaught on pts with the 275% stealth bonus against PvE mobs it will be ~ 15k against a player in PvP.
It should be about 18-20k on players, assuming they don't have minor + major protection
Nope, you are calculating by dividing by 2.75 which is wrong. You have to divide by 3.75 (275% bonus damage means 3.75 times original damage, same as 100% bonus damage means 2 times original damage).
Example calculation with your 125k dmg:
- lets say your tooltip is 16.7k
- now you do a crit with 100% crit bonus damage --> 16.7k * 2 = 33.4k
- now you do + 275% damage from stealth --> 33.4k + (33.4k * 2.75) = 33.4k * 3.75 = 125k
While in PvP:
- Still 16.7k tooltip
- Now you crit but target has the base crit resistance of 20% --> 16.7k * (2 - 0.2) = 16.7k * 1.8 = 30k
- Now you don't get the stealth bonus in PvP but instead battle spirit applies: 30k * 0.5 = 15k
And this is without any % mitigation buffs like minor or major protection.PC EU
Stam DK, Magden, Magplar, Stamcro, Hybrid Sorc, Magblade & Mag DK0 -
gariondavey✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭gariondavey wrote: »gariondavey wrote: »Sanguinor2 wrote: »gariondavey wrote: »
I remember videos of that. I don't remember seeing anything in the patch notes about not getting the 275 bonus in PvP, though.
Look at the morrowind patch notes. Its in there.
Found it, thanks. Was thinking my 125k onslaught would have that on players, guess it is just 44k or so
If you do 125k crit onslaught on pts with the 275% stealth bonus against PvE mobs it will be ~ 15k against a player in PvP.
It should be about 18-20k on players, assuming they don't have minor + major protection
Nope, you are calculating by dividing by 2.75 which is wrong. You have to divide by 3.75 (275% bonus damage means 3.75 times original damage, same as 100% bonus damage means 2 times original damage).
Example calculation with your 125k dmg:
- lets say your tooltip is 16.7k
- now you do a crit with 100% crit bonus damage --> 16.7k * 2 = 33.4k
- now you do + 275% damage from stealth --> 33.4k + (33.4k * 2.75) = 33.4k * 3.75 = 125k
While in PvP:
- Still 16.7k tooltip
- Now you crit but target has the base crit resistance of 20% --> 16.7k * (2 - 0.2) = 16.7k * 1.8 = 30k
- Now you don't get the stealth bonus in PvP but instead battle spirit applies: 30k * 0.5 = 15k
And this is without any % mitigation buffs like minor or major protection.
I forgot about base impen. 22k tooltip, 110 bonus crit is what I built. So 22000 x (2.1 - 0.2) x 0.5 is 20900, right?PC NA @gariondavey, BG, IC & Cyrodiil Focused Since October 2017 Stamplar (main), Magplar, Magsorc, Stamsorc, StamDK, MagDK, Stamblade, Magblade, Magden, Stamden0 -
HankTwo✭✭✭✭✭sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »What looks like a bunch of 2-3k hits was actually 10-15k instantaneously.
How is 10-15k damage a 'one shot' though?gariondavey wrote: »gariondavey wrote: »gariondavey wrote: »Sanguinor2 wrote: »gariondavey wrote: »
I remember videos of that. I don't remember seeing anything in the patch notes about not getting the 275 bonus in PvP, though.
Look at the morrowind patch notes. Its in there.
Found it, thanks. Was thinking my 125k onslaught would have that on players, guess it is just 44k or so
If you do 125k crit onslaught on pts with the 275% stealth bonus against PvE mobs it will be ~ 15k against a player in PvP.
It should be about 18-20k on players, assuming they don't have minor + major protection
Nope, you are calculating by dividing by 2.75 which is wrong. You have to divide by 3.75 (275% bonus damage means 3.75 times original damage, same as 100% bonus damage means 2 times original damage).
Example calculation with your 125k dmg:
- lets say your tooltip is 16.7k
- now you do a crit with 100% crit bonus damage --> 16.7k * 2 = 33.4k
- now you do + 275% damage from stealth --> 33.4k + (33.4k * 2.75) = 33.4k * 3.75 = 125k
While in PvP:
- Still 16.7k tooltip
- Now you crit but target has the base crit resistance of 20% --> 16.7k * (2 - 0.2) = 16.7k * 1.8 = 30k
- Now you don't get the stealth bonus in PvP but instead battle spirit applies: 30k * 0.5 = 15k
And this is without any % mitigation buffs like minor or major protection.
I forgot about base impen. 22k tooltip, 110 bonus crit is what I built. So 22000 x (2.1 - 0.2) x 0.5 is 20900, right?
Yep, in that case you should get ~ 20k damage against players. But with that tooltip and crit you should get more than 125k against PvE mobs from stealth --> 22k * 2.1 * 3.75 = 173k. Weird. Maybe the ZOS devs themselves don't know what 275% bonus damage means and it is indeed just plus 175% instead xPEdited by HankTwo on May 7, 2021 5:06PMPC EU
Stam DK, Magden, Magplar, Stamcro, Hybrid Sorc, Magblade & Mag DK1 -
gariondavey✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »What looks like a bunch of 2-3k hits was actually 10-15k instantaneously.
How is 10-15k damage a 'one shot' though?gariondavey wrote: »gariondavey wrote: »gariondavey wrote: »Sanguinor2 wrote: »gariondavey wrote: »
I remember videos of that. I don't remember seeing anything in the patch notes about not getting the 275 bonus in PvP, though.
Look at the morrowind patch notes. Its in there.
Found it, thanks. Was thinking my 125k onslaught would have that on players, guess it is just 44k or so
If you do 125k crit onslaught on pts with the 275% stealth bonus against PvE mobs it will be ~ 15k against a player in PvP.
It should be about 18-20k on players, assuming they don't have minor + major protection
Nope, you are calculating by dividing by 2.75 which is wrong. You have to divide by 3.75 (275% bonus damage means 3.75 times original damage, same as 100% bonus damage means 2 times original damage).
Example calculation with your 125k dmg:
- lets say your tooltip is 16.7k
- now you do a crit with 100% crit bonus damage --> 16.7k * 2 = 33.4k
- now you do + 275% damage from stealth --> 33.4k + (33.4k * 2.75) = 33.4k * 3.75 = 125k
While in PvP:
- Still 16.7k tooltip
- Now you crit but target has the base crit resistance of 20% --> 16.7k * (2 - 0.2) = 16.7k * 1.8 = 30k
- Now you don't get the stealth bonus in PvP but instead battle spirit applies: 30k * 0.5 = 15k
And this is without any % mitigation buffs like minor or major protection.
I forgot about base impen. 22k tooltip, 110 bonus crit is what I built. So 22000 x (2.1 - 0.2) x 0.5 is 20900, right?
Yep, in that case you should get ~ 20k damage against players. But with that tooltip and crit you should get more than 125k against PvE mobs from stealth --> 22k * 2.1 * 3.75 = 173k. Weird. Maybe the ZOS devs themselves don't know what 275% bonus damage means and it is indeed just plus 175% instead xP
I didn't realize 275 was 375, that was my error. Thanks for the help! (So it should be 173k)Edited by gariondavey on May 7, 2021 5:08PMPC NA @gariondavey, BG, IC & Cyrodiil Focused Since October 2017 Stamplar (main), Magplar, Magsorc, Stamsorc, StamDK, MagDK, Stamblade, Magblade, Magden, Stamden2 -
HankTwo✭✭✭✭✭gariondavey wrote: »sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »What looks like a bunch of 2-3k hits was actually 10-15k instantaneously.
How is 10-15k damage a 'one shot' though?gariondavey wrote: »gariondavey wrote: »gariondavey wrote: »Sanguinor2 wrote: »gariondavey wrote: »
I remember videos of that. I don't remember seeing anything in the patch notes about not getting the 275 bonus in PvP, though.
Look at the morrowind patch notes. Its in there.
Found it, thanks. Was thinking my 125k onslaught would have that on players, guess it is just 44k or so
If you do 125k crit onslaught on pts with the 275% stealth bonus against PvE mobs it will be ~ 15k against a player in PvP.
It should be about 18-20k on players, assuming they don't have minor + major protection
Nope, you are calculating by dividing by 2.75 which is wrong. You have to divide by 3.75 (275% bonus damage means 3.75 times original damage, same as 100% bonus damage means 2 times original damage).
Example calculation with your 125k dmg:
- lets say your tooltip is 16.7k
- now you do a crit with 100% crit bonus damage --> 16.7k * 2 = 33.4k
- now you do + 275% damage from stealth --> 33.4k + (33.4k * 2.75) = 33.4k * 3.75 = 125k
While in PvP:
- Still 16.7k tooltip
- Now you crit but target has the base crit resistance of 20% --> 16.7k * (2 - 0.2) = 16.7k * 1.8 = 30k
- Now you don't get the stealth bonus in PvP but instead battle spirit applies: 30k * 0.5 = 15k
And this is without any % mitigation buffs like minor or major protection.
I forgot about base impen. 22k tooltip, 110 bonus crit is what I built. So 22000 x (2.1 - 0.2) x 0.5 is 20900, right?
Yep, in that case you should get ~ 20k damage against players. But with that tooltip and crit you should get more than 125k against PvE mobs from stealth --> 22k * 2.1 * 3.75 = 173k. Weird. Maybe the ZOS devs themselves don't know what 275% bonus damage means and it is indeed just plus 175% instead xP
I didn't realize 275 was 375, that was my error. Thanks for the help!
Honestly, maybe the devs just made the exact same error perhaps? If you have 22k tooltip and it is not 275% but 175% bonus damage then it would lead to close to those 125k you saw --> 22k * 2.1 * 2.75 = 127k.PC EU
Stam DK, Magden, Magplar, Stamcro, Hybrid Sorc, Magblade & Mag DK0 -
gariondavey✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭gariondavey wrote: »sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »What looks like a bunch of 2-3k hits was actually 10-15k instantaneously.
How is 10-15k damage a 'one shot' though?gariondavey wrote: »gariondavey wrote: »gariondavey wrote: »Sanguinor2 wrote: »gariondavey wrote: »
I remember videos of that. I don't remember seeing anything in the patch notes about not getting the 275 bonus in PvP, though.
Look at the morrowind patch notes. Its in there.
Found it, thanks. Was thinking my 125k onslaught would have that on players, guess it is just 44k or so
If you do 125k crit onslaught on pts with the 275% stealth bonus against PvE mobs it will be ~ 15k against a player in PvP.
It should be about 18-20k on players, assuming they don't have minor + major protection
Nope, you are calculating by dividing by 2.75 which is wrong. You have to divide by 3.75 (275% bonus damage means 3.75 times original damage, same as 100% bonus damage means 2 times original damage).
Example calculation with your 125k dmg:
- lets say your tooltip is 16.7k
- now you do a crit with 100% crit bonus damage --> 16.7k * 2 = 33.4k
- now you do + 275% damage from stealth --> 33.4k + (33.4k * 2.75) = 33.4k * 3.75 = 125k
While in PvP:
- Still 16.7k tooltip
- Now you crit but target has the base crit resistance of 20% --> 16.7k * (2 - 0.2) = 16.7k * 1.8 = 30k
- Now you don't get the stealth bonus in PvP but instead battle spirit applies: 30k * 0.5 = 15k
And this is without any % mitigation buffs like minor or major protection.
I forgot about base impen. 22k tooltip, 110 bonus crit is what I built. So 22000 x (2.1 - 0.2) x 0.5 is 20900, right?
Yep, in that case you should get ~ 20k damage against players. But with that tooltip and crit you should get more than 125k against PvE mobs from stealth --> 22k * 2.1 * 3.75 = 173k. Weird. Maybe the ZOS devs themselves don't know what 275% bonus damage means and it is indeed just plus 175% instead xP
I didn't realize 275 was 375, that was my error. Thanks for the help!
Honestly, maybe the devs just made the exact same error perhaps? If you have 22k tooltip and it is not 275% but 175% bonus damage then it would lead to close to those 125k you saw --> 22k * 2.1 * 2.75 = 127k.
I didn't physically test, just was doing build editor and calculations.PC NA @gariondavey, BG, IC & Cyrodiil Focused Since October 2017 Stamplar (main), Magplar, Magsorc, Stamsorc, StamDK, MagDK, Stamblade, Magblade, Magden, Stamden1 -
HankTwo✭✭✭✭✭gariondavey wrote: »gariondavey wrote: »sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »What looks like a bunch of 2-3k hits was actually 10-15k instantaneously.
How is 10-15k damage a 'one shot' though?gariondavey wrote: »gariondavey wrote: »gariondavey wrote: »Sanguinor2 wrote: »gariondavey wrote: »
I remember videos of that. I don't remember seeing anything in the patch notes about not getting the 275 bonus in PvP, though.
Look at the morrowind patch notes. Its in there.
Found it, thanks. Was thinking my 125k onslaught would have that on players, guess it is just 44k or so
If you do 125k crit onslaught on pts with the 275% stealth bonus against PvE mobs it will be ~ 15k against a player in PvP.
It should be about 18-20k on players, assuming they don't have minor + major protection
Nope, you are calculating by dividing by 2.75 which is wrong. You have to divide by 3.75 (275% bonus damage means 3.75 times original damage, same as 100% bonus damage means 2 times original damage).
Example calculation with your 125k dmg:
- lets say your tooltip is 16.7k
- now you do a crit with 100% crit bonus damage --> 16.7k * 2 = 33.4k
- now you do + 275% damage from stealth --> 33.4k + (33.4k * 2.75) = 33.4k * 3.75 = 125k
While in PvP:
- Still 16.7k tooltip
- Now you crit but target has the base crit resistance of 20% --> 16.7k * (2 - 0.2) = 16.7k * 1.8 = 30k
- Now you don't get the stealth bonus in PvP but instead battle spirit applies: 30k * 0.5 = 15k
And this is without any % mitigation buffs like minor or major protection.
I forgot about base impen. 22k tooltip, 110 bonus crit is what I built. So 22000 x (2.1 - 0.2) x 0.5 is 20900, right?
Yep, in that case you should get ~ 20k damage against players. But with that tooltip and crit you should get more than 125k against PvE mobs from stealth --> 22k * 2.1 * 3.75 = 173k. Weird. Maybe the ZOS devs themselves don't know what 275% bonus damage means and it is indeed just plus 175% instead xP
I didn't realize 275 was 375, that was my error. Thanks for the help!
Honestly, maybe the devs just made the exact same error perhaps? If you have 22k tooltip and it is not 275% but 175% bonus damage then it would lead to close to those 125k you saw --> 22k * 2.1 * 2.75 = 127k.
I didn't physically test, just was doing build editor and calculations.
Ah, alright, thanks for clearing that up!PC EU
Stam DK, Magden, Magplar, Stamcro, Hybrid Sorc, Magblade & Mag DK1 -
gariondavey✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭gariondavey wrote: »gariondavey wrote: »sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »What looks like a bunch of 2-3k hits was actually 10-15k instantaneously.
How is 10-15k damage a 'one shot' though?gariondavey wrote: »gariondavey wrote: »gariondavey wrote: »Sanguinor2 wrote: »gariondavey wrote: »
I remember videos of that. I don't remember seeing anything in the patch notes about not getting the 275 bonus in PvP, though.
Look at the morrowind patch notes. Its in there.
Found it, thanks. Was thinking my 125k onslaught would have that on players, guess it is just 44k or so
If you do 125k crit onslaught on pts with the 275% stealth bonus against PvE mobs it will be ~ 15k against a player in PvP.
It should be about 18-20k on players, assuming they don't have minor + major protection
Nope, you are calculating by dividing by 2.75 which is wrong. You have to divide by 3.75 (275% bonus damage means 3.75 times original damage, same as 100% bonus damage means 2 times original damage).
Example calculation with your 125k dmg:
- lets say your tooltip is 16.7k
- now you do a crit with 100% crit bonus damage --> 16.7k * 2 = 33.4k
- now you do + 275% damage from stealth --> 33.4k + (33.4k * 2.75) = 33.4k * 3.75 = 125k
While in PvP:
- Still 16.7k tooltip
- Now you crit but target has the base crit resistance of 20% --> 16.7k * (2 - 0.2) = 16.7k * 1.8 = 30k
- Now you don't get the stealth bonus in PvP but instead battle spirit applies: 30k * 0.5 = 15k
And this is without any % mitigation buffs like minor or major protection.
I forgot about base impen. 22k tooltip, 110 bonus crit is what I built. So 22000 x (2.1 - 0.2) x 0.5 is 20900, right?
Yep, in that case you should get ~ 20k damage against players. But with that tooltip and crit you should get more than 125k against PvE mobs from stealth --> 22k * 2.1 * 3.75 = 173k. Weird. Maybe the ZOS devs themselves don't know what 275% bonus damage means and it is indeed just plus 175% instead xP
I didn't realize 275 was 375, that was my error. Thanks for the help!
Honestly, maybe the devs just made the exact same error perhaps? If you have 22k tooltip and it is not 275% but 175% bonus damage then it would lead to close to those 125k you saw --> 22k * 2.1 * 2.75 = 127k.
I didn't physically test, just was doing build editor and calculations.
Ah, alright, thanks for clearing that up!
It is multiplicative, though, right? Not additivePC NA @gariondavey, BG, IC & Cyrodiil Focused Since October 2017 Stamplar (main), Magplar, Magsorc, Stamsorc, StamDK, MagDK, Stamblade, Magblade, Magden, Stamden0 -
HankTwo✭✭✭✭✭gariondavey wrote: »gariondavey wrote: »gariondavey wrote: »sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »What looks like a bunch of 2-3k hits was actually 10-15k instantaneously.
How is 10-15k damage a 'one shot' though?gariondavey wrote: »gariondavey wrote: »gariondavey wrote: »Sanguinor2 wrote: »gariondavey wrote: »
I remember videos of that. I don't remember seeing anything in the patch notes about not getting the 275 bonus in PvP, though.
Look at the morrowind patch notes. Its in there.
Found it, thanks. Was thinking my 125k onslaught would have that on players, guess it is just 44k or so
If you do 125k crit onslaught on pts with the 275% stealth bonus against PvE mobs it will be ~ 15k against a player in PvP.
It should be about 18-20k on players, assuming they don't have minor + major protection
Nope, you are calculating by dividing by 2.75 which is wrong. You have to divide by 3.75 (275% bonus damage means 3.75 times original damage, same as 100% bonus damage means 2 times original damage).
Example calculation with your 125k dmg:
- lets say your tooltip is 16.7k
- now you do a crit with 100% crit bonus damage --> 16.7k * 2 = 33.4k
- now you do + 275% damage from stealth --> 33.4k + (33.4k * 2.75) = 33.4k * 3.75 = 125k
While in PvP:
- Still 16.7k tooltip
- Now you crit but target has the base crit resistance of 20% --> 16.7k * (2 - 0.2) = 16.7k * 1.8 = 30k
- Now you don't get the stealth bonus in PvP but instead battle spirit applies: 30k * 0.5 = 15k
And this is without any % mitigation buffs like minor or major protection.
I forgot about base impen. 22k tooltip, 110 bonus crit is what I built. So 22000 x (2.1 - 0.2) x 0.5 is 20900, right?
Yep, in that case you should get ~ 20k damage against players. But with that tooltip and crit you should get more than 125k against PvE mobs from stealth --> 22k * 2.1 * 3.75 = 173k. Weird. Maybe the ZOS devs themselves don't know what 275% bonus damage means and it is indeed just plus 175% instead xP
I didn't realize 275 was 375, that was my error. Thanks for the help!
Honestly, maybe the devs just made the exact same error perhaps? If you have 22k tooltip and it is not 275% but 175% bonus damage then it would lead to close to those 125k you saw --> 22k * 2.1 * 2.75 = 127k.
I didn't physically test, just was doing build editor and calculations.
Ah, alright, thanks for clearing that up!
It is multiplicative, though, right? Not additive
It could be that the stealth bonus is treated like any other % damage done bonus, then you would first have to add them all up, and then multiply your damage with that sum.
Example: If you would have minor berserk + 5% and an major berserk + 10% damage done buff, then the total damage with crit would be base tooltip (before any damage done buffs, so less than your 22k) * sum of damage done (in this case 3.9) * crit.
In our example your base tooltip before the berserk buffs would be 22k / 1.15 = 19.13k --> so 19.13k * (1 + 2.75 + 0.05 + 0.1) * 2.1 = 19.13k * 3.9 * 2.1 = 156.67k, which is a significantly different value than if the stealth damage bonus is a true, independent damage buff: 22k * 3.75 * 2.1 = 173.25k (note that in case you dont have any other % damage done buffs, both calculations would lead to the same result).
The only way to know how it really works would be to test it on the PTS. But what we are discussing now is off topic, so lets not continue here. If you have more questions you can pm me.PC EU
Stam DK, Magden, Magplar, Stamcro, Hybrid Sorc, Magblade & Mag DK0 -
gariondavey✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭gariondavey wrote: »gariondavey wrote: »gariondavey wrote: »sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »What looks like a bunch of 2-3k hits was actually 10-15k instantaneously.
How is 10-15k damage a 'one shot' though?gariondavey wrote: »gariondavey wrote: »gariondavey wrote: »Sanguinor2 wrote: »gariondavey wrote: »
I remember videos of that. I don't remember seeing anything in the patch notes about not getting the 275 bonus in PvP, though.
Look at the morrowind patch notes. Its in there.
Found it, thanks. Was thinking my 125k onslaught would have that on players, guess it is just 44k or so
If you do 125k crit onslaught on pts with the 275% stealth bonus against PvE mobs it will be ~ 15k against a player in PvP.
It should be about 18-20k on players, assuming they don't have minor + major protection
Nope, you are calculating by dividing by 2.75 which is wrong. You have to divide by 3.75 (275% bonus damage means 3.75 times original damage, same as 100% bonus damage means 2 times original damage).
Example calculation with your 125k dmg:
- lets say your tooltip is 16.7k
- now you do a crit with 100% crit bonus damage --> 16.7k * 2 = 33.4k
- now you do + 275% damage from stealth --> 33.4k + (33.4k * 2.75) = 33.4k * 3.75 = 125k
While in PvP:
- Still 16.7k tooltip
- Now you crit but target has the base crit resistance of 20% --> 16.7k * (2 - 0.2) = 16.7k * 1.8 = 30k
- Now you don't get the stealth bonus in PvP but instead battle spirit applies: 30k * 0.5 = 15k
And this is without any % mitigation buffs like minor or major protection.
I forgot about base impen. 22k tooltip, 110 bonus crit is what I built. So 22000 x (2.1 - 0.2) x 0.5 is 20900, right?
Yep, in that case you should get ~ 20k damage against players. But with that tooltip and crit you should get more than 125k against PvE mobs from stealth --> 22k * 2.1 * 3.75 = 173k. Weird. Maybe the ZOS devs themselves don't know what 275% bonus damage means and it is indeed just plus 175% instead xP
I didn't realize 275 was 375, that was my error. Thanks for the help!
Honestly, maybe the devs just made the exact same error perhaps? If you have 22k tooltip and it is not 275% but 175% bonus damage then it would lead to close to those 125k you saw --> 22k * 2.1 * 2.75 = 127k.
I didn't physically test, just was doing build editor and calculations.
Ah, alright, thanks for clearing that up!
It is multiplicative, though, right? Not additive
It could be that the stealth bonus is treated like any other % damage done bonus, then you would first have to add them all up, and then multiply your damage with that sum.
Example: If you would have minor berserk + 5% and an major berserk + 10% damage done buff, then the total damage with crit would be base tooltip (before any damage done buffs, so less than your 22k) * sum of damage done (in this case 3.9) * crit.
In our example your base tooltip before the berserk buffs would be 22k / 1.15 = 19.13k --> so 19.13k * (1 + 2.75 + 0.05 + 0.1) * 2.1 = 19.13k * 3.9 * 2.1 = 156.67k, which is a significantly different value than if the stealth damage bonus is a true, independent damage buff: 22k * 3.75 * 2.1 = 173.25k (note that in case you dont have any other % damage done buffs, both calculations would lead to the same result).
The only way to know how it really works would be to test it on the PTS. But what we are discussing now is off topic, so lets not continue here. If you have more questions you can pm me.
It is still a 1 shot discussion :P
Thanks for the helpPC NA @gariondavey, BG, IC & Cyrodiil Focused Since October 2017 Stamplar (main), Magplar, Magsorc, Stamsorc, StamDK, MagDK, Stamblade, Magblade, Magden, Stamden0 -
YandereGirlfriend✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I love seeing these click-bait Youtubers get shot down as they call for their nerfs.
They have to step up their game now that they're getting fact-checked and people aren't blindly accepting their videos as fact.2 -
katorga✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭xylena_lazarow wrote: »
Fair enough, in that case give it a couple weeks after it goes live, and the GOD MODE ONE SHOT 1VX OUTNUMBERED videos featuring this sort of build will come. Will it actually be a problem in a meta where Vatesh 2h builds also do this, and the Vatesh Destro still kills people through walls? That's harder to answer. These things may congeal into one single horrifying god build, and ZOS will nuke the meta yet again.I'm not saying they do or don't carry any weight, but one can derive a lot about what is going on scanning through the streamer builds. Just like you can by scanning throught the eso forum thread titles you can get a general "feel" about what is working.
There will definitely be some congealing going on. Someone always comes up with something. ZOS has been pretty extreme about pre-nerfing most of the new stuff though so we'll see. I'm still salty about my Necro losing its execute crit passive.
But this seems like a fun thing to blow some transmutes on to see what it can do.
1 -
Arcanasx✭✭✭✭✭sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »Also curious as to why the OP has omitted the more burstier sets such as vate 2h, ashen grip and even calurians on his list of "one shot" combo sets. Stacking further penetration at the expense of weapon damage and sustain, on top of sets that provide you barely any weapon damage, some max resources, and no sustain, is going to make your healing weak and your resources dry out fast. Trying to rely entirely on heavy attacks for sustain is risky and unreliable considering the amount of dodge roll spam these days.
And even then, this "one shot" rhetoric seems like a bunch of hyperbole. I would like to see the OP post some numbers to back his claim that using these sets somehow results in easy one shots.
All of the sets you listed are part of one shot builds on live but on PTS are now subject to proc scaling through weapon/spell damage. Master DW and undaunted infiltrator are not affected by scaling, thus allowing you to skip stacking wpn dmg and instead stack penetration with things like maces and krag.
This type of setup has been powerful for years because of how much front loaded burst is on every hit and so it’s funny that the devs let these sets escape the proc scaling changes. Personally, I will likely be running these sets myself. And to those who think master DW + undaunted infiltrator isn’t good -> don’t use it then.
The sets Im talking about are still going to provide more burst potential even if you don't reach the new 6.5k requirements to meet the current live values, as long you have some investment into weapon dmg. Especially with vate 2h, which itself will give you more weapon dmg just for getting stacks.
"This type of setup has been powerful for years...". What? Both UI and masters DW were buffed only last year in august. UI is a medium set that once gave you 2 lines of max magicka (before it was changed to max stamina) and the buff was about 33% weaker. Masters DW direct damage buff was added at the same time during the ongoing "set standardization" audit that was going on. The final value that was added was to make it more aligned with other "spammables" DPS-wise. How could this setup be powerful for "years" when it has been working the way it currently does for only 8 months?
I'm not saying this setup is bad, it can be quite good if you know what you're doing, but its nowhere near the "one shot players by simply heavy attacking + rending's weave" fantasy that you're alluding too, even with full pen. That's hyperbole.
And I'm quite sure the reason why the new scaling changes aren't affecting those sets is because they provide a flat damage modifier to the base damage of the actions/abilities themselves rather than acting as an additional, separate source of damage that works outside of the GCD, like how the various proc dot sets work for example.
As for this setup potentially becoming more common next update I don't really care, because I can confidently say after fighting people (although rarely) using this setup in no way did I get the feeling that it was "broken" or overly unfair to fight against when I compare it to all the other various builds I've fought over the years, especially considering the inherent weaknesses in builds such as these.Edited by Arcanasx on May 8, 2021 12:59AM1 -
sabresandiego_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »Also curious as to why the OP has omitted the more burstier sets such as vate 2h, ashen grip and even calurians on his list of "one shot" combo sets. Stacking further penetration at the expense of weapon damage and sustain, on top of sets that provide you barely any weapon damage, some max resources, and no sustain, is going to make your healing weak and your resources dry out fast. Trying to rely entirely on heavy attacks for sustain is risky and unreliable considering the amount of dodge roll spam these days.
And even then, this "one shot" rhetoric seems like a bunch of hyperbole. I would like to see the OP post some numbers to back his claim that using these sets somehow results in easy one shots.
All of the sets you listed are part of one shot builds on live but on PTS are now subject to proc scaling through weapon/spell damage. Master DW and undaunted infiltrator are not affected by scaling, thus allowing you to skip stacking wpn dmg and instead stack penetration with things like maces and krag.
This type of setup has been powerful for years because of how much front loaded burst is on every hit and so it’s funny that the devs let these sets escape the proc scaling changes. Personally, I will likely be running these sets myself. And to those who think master DW + undaunted infiltrator isn’t good -> don’t use it then.
The sets Im talking about are still going to provide more burst potential even if you don't reach the new 6.5k requirements to meet the current live values, as long you have some investment into weapon dmg. Especially with vate 2h, which itself will give you more weapon dmg just for getting stacks.
"This type of setup has been powerful for years...". What? Both UI and masters DW were buffed only last year in august. UI is a medium set that once gave you 2 lines of max magicka (before it was changed to max stamina) and the buff was about 33% weaker. Masters DW direct damage buff was added at the same time during the ongoing "set standardization" audit that was going on. The final value that was added was to make it more aligned with other "spammables" DPS-wise. How could this setup be powerful for "years" when it has been working the way it currently does for only 8 months?
I'm not saying this setup is bad, it can be quite good if you know what you're doing, but its nowhere near the "one shot players by simply heavy attacking + rending's weave" fantasy that you're alluding too, even with full pen. That's hyperbole.
And I'm quite sure the reason why the new scaling changes aren't affecting those sets is because they provide a flat damage modifier to the base damage of the actions/abilities themselves rather than acting as an additional, separate source of damage that works outside of the GCD, like how the various proc dot sets work for example.
As for this setup potentially becoming more common next update I don't really care, because I can confidently say after fighting people (although rarely) using this setup in no way did I get the feeling that it was "broken" or overly unfair to fight against when I compare it to all the other various builds I've fought over the years, especially considering the inherent weaknesses in builds such as these.
If you didn’t think it’s as good as I’ve described then you wouldn’t use it. But you do use it because it’s too good not to.Edited by sabresandiego_ESO on May 8, 2021 1:20AMAli Dreadsabre -Necromancer
Ali Sabre -Nightblade0 -
SirAndy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Simple solution:
- Make gear sets cosmetic
- Give everyone the same base stats through battle spirit
- Make weapons all work the same with the same damage and without using magicka or stamina
- No block, no dodge, no mitigation, no CP, no nothing
- Rename Cyrodiil to "Quake Team Arena"
Edited by SirAndy on May 8, 2021 1:17AM2
