Oversight: One Shot Builds Still Possible

ManDraKE

Sanctum74 wrote: »

And you proved my point it’s only op when paired with certain sets so we agree there is no reason for a nerf.

Edit: No class should ever be nerfed because of proc sets or you end up like magnb. [snip]

is busted paried with a plethora of sets. Just wait till remove the "cyro with 10 sets" thing and you will see it far more clear. And i'm not flexing anything, but if you are playing cyrodril you are not aware of what the meta is, what is broker or what not, because cyrodril is currently a bubble with everyone runing *** sets like hundings rage lol.

You cant just ignore sets and balance skills in a vacuum. For better or worse, ZoS decided that builds are defined by sets a long time ago, so we need to balance accordingly.

xylena_lazarow

ManDraKE wrote: »

but if you are playing cyrodril you are not aware of what the meta is... You cant just ignore sets and balance skills in a vacuum.

Crystal Weapon wasn't a problem in u28 malaproc Cyro meta either. Hey I got a compromise, how about we leave abilities alone, instead Vatesh 2h gets gutted and never seen in PvP again?

xylena_lazarow

BTW back to OP, here's 18.9k burst in 0.45sec from my stamsorc using an Infiltrator+MDW heavy malaproc build, in a duel against a friend on a 27k armor sdk. My other 5pc was Pariah, so I had over 30k hp and armor.

Arcanasx

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

BTW back to OP, here's 18.9k burst in 0.45sec from my stamsorc using an Infiltrator+MDW heavy malaproc build, in a duel against a friend on a 27k armor sdk. My other 5pc was Pariah, so I had over 30k hp and armor.

Undaunted Infiltrator dual wield heavy attack adds 1685x2 = 3370 x 0.56 (Battle spirits 44% damage reduction) = 1887
mDW Direct damage adds 1635x2 = 3270 x 0.56 = 1831
mDW DOT tick damage adds 1635 x 0.56 = 915

Adding UI and mDW's direct damage together becomes 3718
Adding UI, and both the mDW direct damage and DOT tick together (delaying your ability after a heavy attack and spreading out your burst, which gives your opponent some time to block or dodge your ability) is 4633.

Assuming best case scenario of 4633, this is how much damage UI and mDW gives you without any other modifiers. You can have malacath to increase that by 16%, but there's also mitigation to consider and is highly varied. Just to simplify it, we're going to assume 2 maces with both having the sharpened trait (1650+1638 x2 = 6576), 700 from CP, and we'll even add both major and minor breach from a SnB pierce armor which is another 8922. Add another 1000 from crystal weapon, and the total would be 17198 armor pen. Against a target with exactly 27k resistance, their armor after your pen becomes 9802, or 14.85% resistance leftover.

Then using updated malacath, 4633 x 1.16 = 5374 damage, then 5374 x 0.86 (14.85% armor resistance rounded down) = 4621.

So using UI and mdw buffed with malacath, after charging a delayed, telegraphed heavy attack, and then waiting to cast your blood craze only after you get a dot tick(further delaying and spreading out the burst), you add approximately 4621 extra damage to your burst combo.

Your burst without UI and mDW goes from 18.9k to about 14.3k; its increased your burst a little over 32%. Lets also take into consideration the opportunity costs of using both UI and mDW (which have mediocre set bonuses for stam btw), and how the damage gap in practice would be smaller than 4621 if you were to replace those sets with other stat or some other damage proc sets. In fact, there's still other set combinations you could use that would give you greater burst potential over using UI and mDW.

I'm not sure about you, but adding 4621 damage (with malacath and stacking pen at the expense of your other stats) after what takes about 2.2 seconds (around 1.8s for dw heavy attack and waiting 0.4 seconds for blood craze) and managing to land it on someone who doesn't block or dodge that attack, is hardly "one shot enabling potential" as the OP claims, or "broken", especially considering the unreliability of landing that attack. It's also quite ridiculous when people conflate things that inherently have nothing to do the sets themselves in order to exaggerate the effectiveness of the sets in question.

relentless_turnip

ManDraKE wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

ManDraKE wrote: »

Arcanasx wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

I really think ull once again hurt PvE more than PvP with this change

Almost all sets that provide bonus damage in one form or another were made to scale except for master DW, undaunted infiltrator, and a few others that still provide large amounts of upfront burst with no stat investments. I personally don't care if this changes or not, but it should definitely brought to attention on the "public test forums"

I've already said this before, but UI and mDW don't work the same way as sets such as red mountain, caluurions, unleashed terror, sheer venom, crimson, etc because the other sets are off your GCD and act as a separate source of damage. Unlike the others, UI and mDW adds damage to the existing damage of abilities/actions themselves, (similar to what weapon/spell damage/max resources does) and outside of the buffed DOT damage from rendings, you'll need to actively attack to get the most use out of these sets, while with the other sets you can play more passively and defensive (including "proc and kite") during their cooldowns and still receive much of the benefit.

all good until you pair them with cristal weapon and can have 4 things proc from a LA that can crit and don't need stats to scale, and that can be pre-buffed outside your combo, so from the reciving end is all burst in a single GCD withouth any counters. The whole "you need to use GCDs to buff them" doesn't hold when i can come around the corner and instant proc everything on you, that is why most of the people already do on BGs anyway, is not like fights are frontal 1v1 duels.

I dont mind these sets in general, they add build diversity and never had a problem with them, i dont think they need to be nerfed, maybe just reducing a little the damage of master's DW that i think is a bit overtune since the last buff, but there are some ways to combine these sets that makes really toxic gameplay imo. If they are to remain like these, then we need to ask for changes to cristal weapon. Having the fastest and most maneuverable class in the game coming in an out of combat with pre-buffed oneshoots (plus undoggeable AoE execute damage) is really not good gameplay, it forces everyone to be above 32k HP or get bursted instantly.

Asking for set nerfs is one thing but doubling-down and trying to sneak in a backdoor nerf to Stamina Sorcerers is quite another.

There is nothing at all wrong with Crystal Weapon - please direct your crusade for a nerf elsewhere.

"there is nothing wrong because i say so", solid arguments right there. Everyone who has ever set foot in a high MMR BG match knows that Crystal weapon is overtuned, specially given the current meta.

Crystal weapon is the main reason why everyone is forced to run high HP builds

There is one specific build that is over tuned not the skill and it probably isn't a suprise to anyone that the build in question utilises a proc set. It actually does less damage than shalks and blastbones. You take this skill to cyrodill where proc sets are disabled and no one even notices crystal weapon.

divnyi

Imagine saying crystal weapon is op when we have blastbones and subassault.

Stamsorc is only annoying because unblockable streak into 2h vate crystal execute combo. Which is an issue of unblockable streak and 2h vate more than crystal.

xylena_lazarow

If you guys don't think 19k burst from a 35k armor Pariah tank is good, don't use it. There's probably better versions of this that haven't been figured out yet. If your point was that it's actually not broken or nerf-worthy, then I will agree. You should also note that anyone who can consistently land Dawnbreaker with its excruciating cast time can easily land a dw heavy.

@Arcanasx does your math account for Infiltrator+MDW applying to the base damage before all other multipliers take effect? There's no way that build is hitting 14k burst on HA+Rending without those sets. I personally wasn't as interested in the BGs one shot potential so much as the cp cyro heavy malaproc potential.

ManDraKE

relentless_turnip wrote: »

There is one specific build that is over tuned not the skill and it probably isn't a suprise to anyone that the build in question utilises a proc set. It actually does less damage than shalks and blastbones. You take this skill to cyrodill where proc sets are disabled and no one even notices crystal weapon.

i can think like 10 variations of that build without too much effort. And no, the no proc cyrodril is not measure of anything, is a sandbox thing that is going to be gone in a few weeks, you cant balance skills in a vacuum, builds in this game are a combination of sets and synergies with the class toolkits, so yes, if a skill allows busted gameplay with a plethroa of set combinations, then the skill must be tuned down.

And the argument of "does less dmg than shakls and blastbones" is kinda dumb, they are mechical different skills, and class combos are completely diferrent. I explained the advantages of cristal weapon working outside the GCD on a high mobile class in my previous post. Also blastbones, as half of the necro kit, is overtuend af, but i wont even bother to argue that in a forum where there are posts asking to buff magnecro LOL.

Many people is for a big weak up call when the cydoril noproc test ends, they have no idea the impact of the CP 2.0 changes had on a proc-enabled PvP, but my mark my words, you will see a wave of complains about crystal weapon once the mayority of playerbase catches up with the meta.

xylena_lazarow

ManDraKE wrote: »

you will see a wave of complains about crystal weapon once the mayority of playerbase catches up with the meta.

You nerf Crystal Weapon and players just move to similar obnoxious combos on a warden, which they are all already playing in cyro anyway. You want this gone, delete Vatesh 2h, not stamsorcs.

Waffennacht

You know?

No, 19k burst isnt impressive when I have screen shots of 11k Frags on BG recaps

ManDraKE

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

ManDraKE wrote: »

you will see a wave of complains about crystal weapon once the mayority of playerbase catches up with the meta.

You nerf Crystal Weapon and players just move to similar obnoxious combos on a warden, which they are all already playing in cyro anyway. You want this gone, delete Vatesh 2h, not stamsorcs.

no, there is no combo on the warden that has the burst potential and reliability of the infamous one shoot stamsroc build. The stamsorc burst is taking down players above 30k health in a single weave, that is 100% undoggeable, and given the molibity of the class toolking you can consistently catch people from the back so realisticaly you cant block it neither (and if you see it comming, they have an unblockeable CC on streak LOL). Is the most broken build in the game atm, even worse than the 40k hp wardens with vathe destro+2h vma+unleash. The combination of the stamsorc mobiliy, with a burst combo that lands in a single GCD is the most broken thing we had in years.

Again, you are talking withouth understanding of the current state of the meta outside the crydroill test sandbox, once this builds get into cyrodrill next patch is going to be chaotic. Is literally the viper+tremorscale meta build all over again, just with a different flavor.

Sanctum74

So it makes sense to adjust the sets, not nerf an underperforming class skill.

xylena_lazarow

Waffennacht wrote: »

You know? No, 19k burst isnt impressive when I have screen shots of 11k Frags on BG recaps

I haven't touched BGs in years. We are playing completely different games. Time to pick one, cp or nocp, do not care which, just end this nonsense. They will absolutely never be able to balance two different PvP rulesets, they can't even balance them on their own, let alone against each other and PvE at the same time.

ManDraKE wrote: »

Again, you are talking withouth understanding of the current state of the meta outside the crydroill test sandbox

I'm talking from the point of view of u28 malaproc cp cyro meta + u30 cp pts testing. The problem still isn't Crystal Weapon, it's Vatesh 2h giving free stat buffs and burst procs with nigh zero opportunity cost.

gariondavey

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Time to pick one, cp or nocp, do not care which, just end this nonsense. They will absolutely never be able to balance two different PvP rulesets, they can't even balance them on their own, let alone against each other and PvE at the same time.

I agree with this, and have said this for years

Arcanasx

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

If you guys don't think 19k burst from a 35k armor Pariah tank is good, don't use it. There's probably better versions of this that haven't been figured out yet. If your point was that it's actually not broken or nerf-worthy, then I will agree. You should also note that anyone who can consistently land Dawnbreaker with its excruciating cast time can easily land a dw heavy.

@Arcanasx does your math account for Infiltrator+MDW applying to the base damage before all other multipliers take effect? There's no way that build is hitting 14k burst on HA+Rending without those sets. I personally wasn't as interested in the BGs one shot potential so much as the cp cyro heavy malaproc potential.

I added the tooltip values of both UI and mDW together when you do a dual wield heavy attack, weaved with a delayed blood craze so you get the buffed DOT tick of a previous cast before you land another direct blood craze (which is what happened according to the metrics you posted). I then modified that with malacath, then reduced it with battle spirit and armor resistance (assuming around 17k pen vs 27k armor).

Assuming a dual wield heavy attack buffed with UI and weaved with mDW blood craze, the UI and mDW base values without any modifiers before battle spirit would be 6440, or 8275 if you also delayed your blood craze cast to let its previous DOT tick first (more risky). You can get those numbers somewhat higher with the right CP, which I didn't take into account to simplify, but that in turn can get diminished/countered by the opponents defensive CP choices.

The final value of UI+mDW comes to about 4600 considering the variables I previously mentioned, which when you look at the metrics you posted crystal weapons is around 4550 which is basically doing as much as both UI and mDW in this scenario. Without these buffs, you could expect your dual wield heavy attack damage (both main and off hand) to go from around 5600 to 3700, your blood craze DOT damage from 1750 to 850, and your direct damage blood craze (adding both hits together) from 4500 to 2700. Concerning those abilities that would get buffed from UI and mDW, you'd go from approximately 11800 damage to around 7250 (100 more or less). The set buffs would work as a nearly 64% increase for the affected abilities.

So you should be able to reach a 14k burst without UI and mDW, because that's what you get when you add everything in your 0.45 second burst window together if you didn't have UI and mDW. The unbuffed heavy attack weaved into delayed blood craze alone is around 7250, and crystal weapon adds another 4550. The rest of the damage is basically status effects and a hurricane armor tick (2550), which all adds up to be over 14k. Of course this would be higher if you were using another damage stat or proc set instead of UI and mDW.

Edit: The unbuffed dual wield heavy attack with blood craze damage may be closer to 6400-6800 damage, meaning the buffed attack is doing maybe 400-800 more damage (simplified) than 4600 since I'm not taking CP slottables into account, but again I don't know for certain which CP buffs you were using and what your opponent was using as well for your metrics post. So your burst without the buffs may be closer to 13.5k.

WreckfulAbandon

Crystal Weapon's bugged damage was fixed thankfully, but I'm surprised Vate 2h specifically hasn't received a nerf.

sabresandiego_ESO

Rending slashes has significantly higher burst damage than blood craze Xylena since the bonus dmg is applied twice. Blood craze is good on an attrition build or dueling build but this type of setup is all about burst damage and not necessarily sustained dps and healing.

Ideally you either burst, cc, burst as Stam dk or cc, burst, then run away as Stam sorc. These are the two best classes for this setup although it works well on any class.

Arcanasx

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Rending slashes has significantly higher burst damage than blood craze Xylena since the bonus dmg is applied twice. Blood craze is good on an attrition build or dueling build but this type of setup is all about burst damage and not necessarily sustained dps and healing.

Ideally you either burst, cc, burst as Stam dk or cc, burst, then run away as Stam sorc. These are the two best classes for this setup although it works well on any class.

Rendings adds 25% more to the direct damage portion compared to the base skill of twin slashes, and does not effect the mDW bonus. Assuming xylena's example again, the unbuffed blood craze of 2700 would become 3375 if it were rendings, a damage increase of 675. The buffed blood craze of 4500 would be 5175 with rendings instead. This is hardly "significantly higher burst damage" (yet more hyperbole), and if anything, I would actually compare mDW being more so a sustained damage set rather than a "burst" set.

Speaking of "significantly higher burst", you should take a look at vate 2h, ashen grip, caluurions, red mountain, etc to see what burst tooltips look like, and dont give me "but the scaling" nonsense. Its not difficult for stam to invest a little to reach at least 5k weapon damage (especially with vate 2h), which should be just over a 20% nerf compared to live, and it'll still provide a good amount more burst than mDW.

xylena_lazarow

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Rending slashes has significantly higher burst damage than blood craze Xylena since the bonus dmg is applied twice.

Am I missing something here? I swear I tested both and Rending was about 10% more damage as expected, no uneven application of bonus damage. Guess I should've posted that in the proc tank thread. Do you think this combo will be used to one shot in cp cyro too, or just BGs?

sabresandiego_ESO

Arcanasx wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Rending slashes has significantly higher burst damage than blood craze Xylena since the bonus dmg is applied twice. Blood craze is good on an attrition build or dueling build but this type of setup is all about burst damage and not necessarily sustained dps and healing.

Ideally you either burst, cc, burst as Stam dk or cc, burst, then run away as Stam sorc. These are the two best classes for this setup although it works well on any class.

Rendings adds 25% more to the direct damage portion compared to the base skill of twin slashes, and does not effect the mDW bonus. Assuming xylena's example again, the unbuffed blood craze of 2700 would become 3375 if it were rendings, a damage increase of 675. The buffed blood craze of 4500 would be 5175 with rendings instead. This is hardly "significantly higher burst damage" (yet more hyperbole), and if anything, I would actually compare mDW being more so a sustained damage set rather than a "burst" set.

Speaking of "significantly higher burst", you should take a look at vate 2h, ashen grip, caluurions, red mountain, etc to see what burst tooltips look like, and dont give me "but the scaling" nonsense. Its not difficult for stam to invest a little to reach at least 5k weapon damage (especially with vate 2h), which should be just over a 20% nerf compared to live, and it'll still provide a good amount more burst than mDW.

That’s a good argument for why master DW and undaunted infiltrator should scale based on weapon damage like other sets that add massive bonus burst damage.

I understand you think that adding bonus damage directly to an ability is somehow different than free damage gained in other ways, but in my opinion its really not.

sabresandiego_ESO

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Rending slashes has significantly higher burst damage than blood craze Xylena since the bonus dmg is applied twice.

Am I missing something here? I swear I tested both and Rending was about 10% more damage as expected, no uneven application of bonus damage. Guess I should've posted that in the proc tank thread. Do you think this combo will be used to one shot in cp cyro too, or just BGs?

It’s extra dmg on each hit. Every bit of extra dmg counts in a burst setup because you are basically trying to kill someone before they can react or heal up. It’s so good on Stam sorcs because they stun you with streak before landing the burst and so good on Stam dks because of molten weapons modifying a good portion of the damage up by 50% and combining it with petrify.

Sets like master DW and undaunted infiltrator shouldn’t be “nerfed”. They are unique and interesting sets, but the fact that they don’t have scaling requirements while other bonus dmg sets do is extremely abusable.

Xylena wearing pariah and having 30k health and armor while still doing 20k instant bursts in duels is the perfect example as she showed in her logs. She’s not forced to stack weapon damage like with other proc sets and therefore can play as a tank instead while retaining incredible burst damage.

The whole goal of making proc sets scale was to avoid this type of scenario so that you have to invest in weapon dmg in order to have hard hitting procs. Master DW and undaunted infiltrator completely sidesteps that requirement and allows you to play as anything (including a tank) and retain massive burst damage

Arcanasx

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Arcanasx wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Rending slashes has significantly higher burst damage than blood craze Xylena since the bonus dmg is applied twice. Blood craze is good on an attrition build or dueling build but this type of setup is all about burst damage and not necessarily sustained dps and healing.

Ideally you either burst, cc, burst as Stam dk or cc, burst, then run away as Stam sorc. These are the two best classes for this setup although it works well on any class.

Rendings adds 25% more to the direct damage portion compared to the base skill of twin slashes, and does not effect the mDW bonus. Assuming xylena's example again, the unbuffed blood craze of 2700 would become 3375 if it were rendings, a damage increase of 675. The buffed blood craze of 4500 would be 5175 with rendings instead. This is hardly "significantly higher burst damage" (yet more hyperbole), and if anything, I would actually compare mDW being more so a sustained damage set rather than a "burst" set.

Speaking of "significantly higher burst", you should take a look at vate 2h, ashen grip, caluurions, red mountain, etc to see what burst tooltips look like, and dont give me "but the scaling" nonsense. Its not difficult for stam to invest a little to reach at least 5k weapon damage (especially with vate 2h), which should be just over a 20% nerf compared to live, and it'll still provide a good amount more burst than mDW.

That’s a good argument for why master DW and undaunted infiltrator should scale based on weapon damage like other sets that add massive bonus burst damage.

I understand you think that adding bonus damage directly to an ability is somehow different than free damage gained in other ways, but in my opinion its really not.

Not really, I'm not arguing that it should scale based on weapon damage, in fact I dont agree with the proc scaling in general because its organized groups stacking different buff sets that are receiving the greatest benefit here, and they are already advantaged enough. Also, stop trying to conflate real burst sets with sustained damage sets like mDW. It does not add massive burst damage. That is just false. It is sustained damage more than anything, considering much of the bonus adds to the DOT.

With that said, you mentioned earlier in this thread that you just wanted to "raise awareness". How it was odd that these sets were an outlier and that you're actually indifferent whether it should get changed or not. And then you just said how it should scale like the other sets. Pretty clear what you're trying to do here.

sabresandiego_ESO

Arcanasx wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Arcanasx wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Rending slashes has significantly higher burst damage than blood craze Xylena since the bonus dmg is applied twice. Blood craze is good on an attrition build or dueling build but this type of setup is all about burst damage and not necessarily sustained dps and healing.

Ideally you either burst, cc, burst as Stam dk or cc, burst, then run away as Stam sorc. These are the two best classes for this setup although it works well on any class.

Rendings adds 25% more to the direct damage portion compared to the base skill of twin slashes, and does not effect the mDW bonus. Assuming xylena's example again, the unbuffed blood craze of 2700 would become 3375 if it were rendings, a damage increase of 675. The buffed blood craze of 4500 would be 5175 with rendings instead. This is hardly "significantly higher burst damage" (yet more hyperbole), and if anything, I would actually compare mDW being more so a sustained damage set rather than a "burst" set.

Speaking of "significantly higher burst", you should take a look at vate 2h, ashen grip, caluurions, red mountain, etc to see what burst tooltips look like, and dont give me "but the scaling" nonsense. Its not difficult for stam to invest a little to reach at least 5k weapon damage (especially with vate 2h), which should be just over a 20% nerf compared to live, and it'll still provide a good amount more burst than mDW.

That’s a good argument for why master DW and undaunted infiltrator should scale based on weapon damage like other sets that add massive bonus burst damage.

I understand you think that adding bonus damage directly to an ability is somehow different than free damage gained in other ways, but in my opinion its really not.

Not really, I'm not arguing that it should scale based on weapon damage, in fact I dont agree with the proc scaling in general because its organized groups stacking different buff sets that are receiving the greatest benefit here, and they are already advantaged enough. Also, stop trying to conflate real burst sets with sustained damage sets like mDW. It does not add massive burst damage. That is just false. It is sustained damage more than anything, considering much of the bonus adds to the DOT.

With that said, you mentioned earlier in this thread that you just wanted to "raise awareness". How it was odd that these sets were an outlier and that you're actually indifferent whether it should get changed or not. And then you just said how it should scale like the other sets. Pretty clear what you're trying to do here.

Xylena just shared a log of landing a 20k instant burst on a heavily armored opponent in a duel while herself being a 30k health/armor tank.

That’s only possible because of the fact that these sets aren’t subject to scaling, allowing players to do things like run swift, stack armor/pen/regen, wear heavy armor, or basically build any way they want.

Other proc sets force players to stack weapon damage which means there is an opportunity cost.

Arcanasx

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Rending slashes has significantly higher burst damage than blood craze Xylena since the bonus dmg is applied twice.

Am I missing something here? I swear I tested both and Rending was about 10% more damage as expected, no uneven application of bonus damage. Guess I should've posted that in the proc tank thread. Do you think this combo will be used to one shot in cp cyro too, or just BGs?

It’s extra dmg on each hit. Every bit of extra dmg counts in a burst setup because you are basically trying to kill someone before they can react or heal up. It’s so good on Stam sorcs because they stun you with streak before landing the burst and so good on Stam dks because of molten weapons modifying a good portion of the damage up by 50% and combining it with petrify.

Sets like master DW and undaunted infiltrator shouldn’t be “nerfed”. They are unique and interesting sets, but the fact that they don’t have scaling requirements while other bonus dmg sets do is extremely abusable.

Xylena wearing pariah and having 30k health and armor while still doing 20k instant bursts in duels is the perfect example as she showed in her logs. She’s not forced to stack weapon damage like with other proc sets and therefore can play as a tank instead while retaining incredible burst damage.

The whole goal of making proc sets scale was to avoid this type of scenario so that you have to invest in weapon dmg in order to have hard hitting procs. Master DW and undaunted infiltrator completely sidesteps that requirement and allows you to play as anything (including a tank) and retain massive burst damage

What is instant about delayed and telegraphed, fully charged heavy attacks? You can do more burst damage by using vate 2h weaved with a quicker medium attack while still building "tanky". Its much easier for someone to dodge, block, sprint away out of range, and to LOS someone trying to do a full heavy attack against you than it is to avoid someone's medium attack.

Arcanasx

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Arcanasx wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Arcanasx wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Rending slashes has significantly higher burst damage than blood craze Xylena since the bonus dmg is applied twice. Blood craze is good on an attrition build or dueling build but this type of setup is all about burst damage and not necessarily sustained dps and healing.

Ideally you either burst, cc, burst as Stam dk or cc, burst, then run away as Stam sorc. These are the two best classes for this setup although it works well on any class.

Rendings adds 25% more to the direct damage portion compared to the base skill of twin slashes, and does not effect the mDW bonus. Assuming xylena's example again, the unbuffed blood craze of 2700 would become 3375 if it were rendings, a damage increase of 675. The buffed blood craze of 4500 would be 5175 with rendings instead. This is hardly "significantly higher burst damage" (yet more hyperbole), and if anything, I would actually compare mDW being more so a sustained damage set rather than a "burst" set.

Speaking of "significantly higher burst", you should take a look at vate 2h, ashen grip, caluurions, red mountain, etc to see what burst tooltips look like, and dont give me "but the scaling" nonsense. Its not difficult for stam to invest a little to reach at least 5k weapon damage (especially with vate 2h), which should be just over a 20% nerf compared to live, and it'll still provide a good amount more burst than mDW.

That’s a good argument for why master DW and undaunted infiltrator should scale based on weapon damage like other sets that add massive bonus burst damage.

I understand you think that adding bonus damage directly to an ability is somehow different than free damage gained in other ways, but in my opinion its really not.

Not really, I'm not arguing that it should scale based on weapon damage, in fact I dont agree with the proc scaling in general because its organized groups stacking different buff sets that are receiving the greatest benefit here, and they are already advantaged enough. Also, stop trying to conflate real burst sets with sustained damage sets like mDW. It does not add massive burst damage. That is just false. It is sustained damage more than anything, considering much of the bonus adds to the DOT.

With that said, you mentioned earlier in this thread that you just wanted to "raise awareness". How it was odd that these sets were an outlier and that you're actually indifferent whether it should get changed or not. And then you just said how it should scale like the other sets. Pretty clear what you're trying to do here.

Xylena just shared a log of landing a 20k instant burst on a heavily armored opponent in a duel while herself being a 30k health/armor tank.

That’s only possible because of the fact that these sets aren’t subject to scaling, allowing players to do things like run swift, stack armor/pen/regen, wear heavy armor, or basically build any way they want.

Other proc sets force players to stack weapon damage which means there is an opportunity cost.

And as I proved most of that 19k burst wasn't even from UI and mDW, less than one third of it was, so you could use other sets to reach that burst or even exceed it.

If you want it subjected to scaling, that's what you should have said before instead of falsely claiming to be indifferent. And I've already outlined my reasons why it probably hasn't been changed to make it scale with weapon damage.

xylena_lazarow

Arcanasx wrote: »

You can do more burst damage by using vate 2h weaved with a quicker medium attack while still building "tanky"

This can be done in 5 heavy Pariah without stacking WD?

sabresandiego_ESO

Arcanasx wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Rending slashes has significantly higher burst damage than blood craze Xylena since the bonus dmg is applied twice.

Am I missing something here? I swear I tested both and Rending was about 10% more damage as expected, no uneven application of bonus damage. Guess I should've posted that in the proc tank thread. Do you think this combo will be used to one shot in cp cyro too, or just BGs?

It’s extra dmg on each hit. Every bit of extra dmg counts in a burst setup because you are basically trying to kill someone before they can react or heal up. It’s so good on Stam sorcs because they stun you with streak before landing the burst and so good on Stam dks because of molten weapons modifying a good portion of the damage up by 50% and combining it with petrify.

Sets like master DW and undaunted infiltrator shouldn’t be “nerfed”. They are unique and interesting sets, but the fact that they don’t have scaling requirements while other bonus dmg sets do is extremely abusable.

Xylena wearing pariah and having 30k health and armor while still doing 20k instant bursts in duels is the perfect example as she showed in her logs. She’s not forced to stack weapon damage like with other proc sets and therefore can play as a tank instead while retaining incredible burst damage.

The whole goal of making proc sets scale was to avoid this type of scenario so that you have to invest in weapon dmg in order to have hard hitting procs. Master DW and undaunted infiltrator completely sidesteps that requirement and allows you to play as anything (including a tank) and retain massive burst damage

What is instant about delayed and telegraphed, fully charged heavy attacks? You can do more burst damage by using vate 2h weaved with a quicker medium attack while still building "tanky". Its much easier for someone to dodge, block, or sprint away out of range, and to LOS someone trying to do a full heavy attack against you than it is to avoid someone's medium attack.

The damage lands instantly and is not easily avoidable in an actual pvp setting where CC, immobilizes, snares, lag, and other confounding factors like the game ignoring player inputs happens. Burst setups are defined as damage landing in a very short window, and that’s what all these builds are.

Arcanasx

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Arcanasx wrote: »

You can do more burst damage by using vate 2h weaved with a quicker medium attack while still building "tanky"

This can be done in 5 heavy Pariah without stacking WD?

Point is you don't even have to reach the new 6.5k requirement, you can still do more burst damage with vate 2h builds than using UI or mDW while still wearing 5 heavy pariah. They may not be able to hit as hard next update if you want some tankiness, so it is mostly getting a nerf, but I'm arguing against the OP's claim that using UI and mDW is going to have the "greatest most massive instant burst one shot potential", when that is most definitely false.

On whether UI and mDW should scale with weapon damage, I've already mentioned my reasons why I think it doesn't, or shouldn't either, mostly due to how the GCD works. And again, I don't even agree with the scaling changes, it would be better to just nerf the values of the most offending proc sets.

Arcanasx

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Arcanasx wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Rending slashes has significantly higher burst damage than blood craze Xylena since the bonus dmg is applied twice.

Am I missing something here? I swear I tested both and Rending was about 10% more damage as expected, no uneven application of bonus damage. Guess I should've posted that in the proc tank thread. Do you think this combo will be used to one shot in cp cyro too, or just BGs?

It’s extra dmg on each hit. Every bit of extra dmg counts in a burst setup because you are basically trying to kill someone before they can react or heal up. It’s so good on Stam sorcs because they stun you with streak before landing the burst and so good on Stam dks because of molten weapons modifying a good portion of the damage up by 50% and combining it with petrify.

Sets like master DW and undaunted infiltrator shouldn’t be “nerfed”. They are unique and interesting sets, but the fact that they don’t have scaling requirements while other bonus dmg sets do is extremely abusable.

Xylena wearing pariah and having 30k health and armor while still doing 20k instant bursts in duels is the perfect example as she showed in her logs. She’s not forced to stack weapon damage like with other proc sets and therefore can play as a tank instead while retaining incredible burst damage.

The whole goal of making proc sets scale was to avoid this type of scenario so that you have to invest in weapon dmg in order to have hard hitting procs. Master DW and undaunted infiltrator completely sidesteps that requirement and allows you to play as anything (including a tank) and retain massive burst damage

What is instant about delayed and telegraphed, fully charged heavy attacks? You can do more burst damage by using vate 2h weaved with a quicker medium attack while still building "tanky". Its much easier for someone to dodge, block, or sprint away out of range, and to LOS someone trying to do a full heavy attack against you than it is to avoid someone's medium attack.

The damage lands instantly and is not easily avoidable in an actual pvp setting where CC, immobilizes, snares, lag, and other confounding factors like the game ignoring player inputs happens. Burst setups are defined as damage landing in a very short window, and that’s what all these builds are.

The damage from different sources when it lands may happen within a short window, but to land that damage is not instant when you're trying to weave it with a heavy attack, which is what you're trying to do to maximize the burst. Also I wouldn't try using lag and the game ignoring player input as a reason why you think two specific sets should be changed.

sabresandiego_ESO

Arcanasx wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Rending slashes has significantly higher burst damage than blood craze Xylena since the bonus dmg is applied twice. Blood craze is good on an attrition build or dueling build but this type of setup is all about burst damage and not necessarily sustained dps and healing.

Ideally you either burst, cc, burst as Stam dk or cc, burst, then run away as Stam sorc. These are the two best classes for this setup although it works well on any class.

Rendings adds 25% more to the direct damage portion compared to the base skill of twin slashes, and does not effect the mDW bonus. Assuming xylena's example again, the unbuffed blood craze of 2700 would become 3375 if it were rendings, a damage increase of 675. The buffed blood craze of 4500 would be 5175 with rendings instead. This is hardly "significantly higher burst damage" (yet more hyperbole), and if anything, I would actually compare mDW being more so a sustained damage set rather than a "burst" set.

Speaking of "significantly higher burst", you should take a look at vate 2h, ashen grip, caluurions, red mountain, etc to see what burst tooltips look like, and dont give me "but the scaling" nonsense. Its not difficult for stam to invest a little to reach at least 5k weapon damage (especially with vate 2h), which should be just over a 20% nerf compared to live, and it'll still provide a good amount more burst than mDW.

This math is wrong because rending slash hits twice. In xylenas logs there are actually three hits of bloodcraze within a .45 second window.

Master DW and Undaunted Infiltrator clearly allow Xylena to land nearly 20k burst damage on an armored target in actual pvp while she herself is wearing a tank set. If you did this with any proc build that is now forced to scale with weapon damage you'd hit like a wet noodle when building to be tanky.