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Delves, Public dungeons and group delves NEED a "veteran" mode
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Raegwyr✭✭✭✭One of the things I’ll mention to folks who wish for a vet overland mode is that what is working against it is simple - an aversion to making overland appear empty. It was one of the primary actors in why the factions were brought together (they were originally separated) etc.
Pulling us into separate servers for content based on difficulty will get nixed over and over because ghost town syndrome will get brought up and make all the dev hours around balancing/instancing/etc easy to say not worth it. They want us to see one another.
Maybe, maybe companions will change that conversation since it will make overland laughable rather than just trivial
The solution always has been a personal debuff angle....avoids all that. But shrug.
Well argument against world being empty would be that the game is played by many more people then before, according to zos statements. And like many mentioned before, game is already splitting population to different instances, the only change would be to actualy differ instances to normal/veteran instead of just normal. Tbh i don't expect zones to be more empty because of this changes. Even more, because many ppl i know don't play quests because of insulting difficulty i expect to see more familiar and new faces in vet mode where things would be actually interesting2 -
Riptide✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yeah. I’ve long, long wished for it myself. There is such a massive, beautiful, open ended world - and with such mountains of voice acting. In a dangerous world where you had to be on the balls of your feet people would, in my opinion, slow down and take in the content rather than clicking through it as the conversations would feel like a momentary respite rather than just noise to be clicked through. It would shift the dynamic and make use of all of it.
But I’m just so worn out trying to make a case for it that all I’m left with are conjectures on why it all gets brushed aside.Esse quam videri.1 -
Riptide✭✭✭✭✭
✭I mean imagine a world where you see another player and think, “thank goodness, I’m saved” rather than “get off my mobs”
Just makes me sigh, manEsse quam videri.2 -
B0SSzombie✭✭✭✭✭
✭They really don't.
It would just go from "Enemies with no mechanics that you tear through" to "Enemies with no mechanics that are damage sponges."
That's not difficult, just tedious.1 -
Wildberryjack✭✭✭✭✭
✭Nah. That's what group dungeons and trials are for, and they have harder modes too. So if you want a challenge do those.The purpose of art is washing the dust of daily life off our souls. ~Pablo Picasso1 -
Iccotak✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Wildberryjack wrote: »Nah. That's what group dungeons and trials are for, and they have harder modes too. So if you want a challenge do those.
the problem isn’t that there is no hard content in the game, there is plenty of hard content. The problem is that engaging story & engaging gameplay have been made to be completely separate. We would love questing but we are getting tired of it being ridiculously easy. It ruins the story
Nobody is asking for overland content to become like Dark Souls. But at some point well before the game's zillion hours of questing is over, many of us begin to feel that the unchanging, bottom-tier difficulty of the quests makes it harder for us to be immersed in the story. This is a game, after all, not a visual novel.Edited by Iccotak on April 26, 2021 6:13PM1 -
Riptide✭✭✭✭✭
✭My main deal is it just wastes the world. Once you can block, roll dodge, weave etc then what ESO is so special about (a massive off rails overland world) becomes a practically empty and desolate place - with almost no risk and little reward for playing strongly.
And really, One Tamriel was a master stroke. It differentiates ESO from almost the entire market. Go anywhere. The whole world is a frontier.
But if you are a demigod then it falls mostly flat, very sadly.
Be super easy to give minor xp buffs for vet mode, or dyes or achievements or things that don’t make utilizing it feel at all like a necessity.
And to the inevitable just go nekkid stuff, I mean just any little incentives will do.
Heck I’ve also come at this from a first person incentive perspective, to add another angle to overland. Seen heaps of good ideas.
I stopped hoping a while back, they seem completely content with overland just being an almost entirely a very, very large stroll.
I can only hope that with companions it is just too glaring to ignore.Esse quam videri.2 -
kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
You're missing the point.If you think the game is like a job you are not playing right.
If people are given the option of a harder and easier task for the same reward, the average person will pick the easier task because why do something harder if you're gonna get the same as doing an easier thing?
There will be people doing the harder task purely out of a sense of pride, but everyone else will likely take the easier task.
And you know, that's not exactly a good thing, because it doesn't encourage people to improve upon themselves. It is why I would rather see Overland to be just a bit harder baseline than be Beginner-level easy for the entirety of the 70% of the game.
I am not missing the point. People start these threads saying it would be more fun if the content were more of a challenge. More fun would be the reward. This suggestion is about making the game more entertaining and shouldn't be about getting a better drop.and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."2 -
Thechuckage✭✭✭✭✭
You're missing the point.If you think the game is like a job you are not playing right.
If people are given the option of a harder and easier task for the same reward, the average person will pick the easier task because why do something harder if you're gonna get the same as doing an easier thing?
There will be people doing the harder task purely out of a sense of pride, but everyone else will likely take the easier task.
And you know, that's not exactly a good thing, because it doesn't encourage people to improve upon themselves. It is why I would rather see Overland to be just a bit harder baseline than be Beginner-level easy for the entirety of the 70% of the game.
I am not missing the point. People start these threads saying it would be more fun if the content were more of a challenge. More fun would be the reward. This suggestion is about making the game more entertaining and shouldn't be about getting a better drop.
It can be both. More challenge and greater rewards. Not to mention that is inline with the current reward system. Tougher content, better rewards.
Personally don't think it should be anything crazy or unable to get without doing vet OW. IE more gold, purples instead of blues, more mats as expamples.Edited by Thechuckage on April 26, 2021 9:08PM1 -
kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Thechuckage wrote: »
You're missing the point.If you think the game is like a job you are not playing right.
If people are given the option of a harder and easier task for the same reward, the average person will pick the easier task because why do something harder if you're gonna get the same as doing an easier thing?
There will be people doing the harder task purely out of a sense of pride, but everyone else will likely take the easier task.
And you know, that's not exactly a good thing, because it doesn't encourage people to improve upon themselves. It is why I would rather see Overland to be just a bit harder baseline than be Beginner-level easy for the entirety of the 70% of the game.
I am not missing the point. People start these threads saying it would be more fun if the content were more of a challenge. More fun would be the reward. This suggestion is about making the game more entertaining and shouldn't be about getting a better drop.
It can be both. More challenge and greater rewards. Not to mention that is inline with the current reward system. Tougher content, better rewards.
Personally don't think it should be anything crazy or unable to get without doing vet OW. IE more gold, purples instead of blues, more mats as expamples.
I agree it can be both but with new content only. I still think it would be a bad idea to go back and separate base overland into normal and vet with vet dropping additional rewards. We then get into the problem of how much better. If the rewards are quite a bit better players will complain that they are missing out. If the rewards are only slightly better then players will complain there isn't enough difference in rewards to make doing the harder content worth it. Best to just leave the rewards the same for both and let players choose the level of difficulty they want for the fun of it.and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."1 -
Thechuckage✭✭✭✭✭Thechuckage wrote: »
You're missing the point.If you think the game is like a job you are not playing right.
If people are given the option of a harder and easier task for the same reward, the average person will pick the easier task because why do something harder if you're gonna get the same as doing an easier thing?
There will be people doing the harder task purely out of a sense of pride, but everyone else will likely take the easier task.
And you know, that's not exactly a good thing, because it doesn't encourage people to improve upon themselves. It is why I would rather see Overland to be just a bit harder baseline than be Beginner-level easy for the entirety of the 70% of the game.
I am not missing the point. People start these threads saying it would be more fun if the content were more of a challenge. More fun would be the reward. This suggestion is about making the game more entertaining and shouldn't be about getting a better drop.
It can be both. More challenge and greater rewards. Not to mention that is inline with the current reward system. Tougher content, better rewards.
Personally don't think it should be anything crazy or unable to get without doing vet OW. IE more gold, purples instead of blues, more mats as examples.
I agree it can be both but with new content only. I still think it would be a bad idea to go back and separate base overland into normal and vet with vet dropping additional rewards. We then get into the problem of how much better. If the rewards are quite a bit better players will complain that they are missing out. If the rewards are only slightly better then players will complain there isn't enough difference in rewards to make doing the harder content worth it. Best to just leave the rewards the same for both and let players choose the level of difficulty they want for the fun of it.
The major rewards (debatable) for dungeons right now are transmute stones. Both normal and vet offer up the same reward. Where are the majority of the people?
I don't know about you, but I'm not seeing large amounts of people complaining that monster helms won't drop in normals. That they can't get godslayer in a normal. People look at where the rewards are and make the determination to get them or not.
Smaller scaled vet instances -delves, publics and stories should be used as a testing ground. If popular then expand it out. New and old.1 -
Agenericname✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Thechuckage wrote: »Thechuckage wrote: »
You're missing the point.If you think the game is like a job you are not playing right.
If people are given the option of a harder and easier task for the same reward, the average person will pick the easier task because why do something harder if you're gonna get the same as doing an easier thing?
There will be people doing the harder task purely out of a sense of pride, but everyone else will likely take the easier task.
And you know, that's not exactly a good thing, because it doesn't encourage people to improve upon themselves. It is why I would rather see Overland to be just a bit harder baseline than be Beginner-level easy for the entirety of the 70% of the game.
I am not missing the point. People start these threads saying it would be more fun if the content were more of a challenge. More fun would be the reward. This suggestion is about making the game more entertaining and shouldn't be about getting a better drop.
It can be both. More challenge and greater rewards. Not to mention that is inline with the current reward system. Tougher content, better rewards.
Personally don't think it should be anything crazy or unable to get without doing vet OW. IE more gold, purples instead of blues, more mats as examples.
I agree it can be both but with new content only. I still think it would be a bad idea to go back and separate base overland into normal and vet with vet dropping additional rewards. We then get into the problem of how much better. If the rewards are quite a bit better players will complain that they are missing out. If the rewards are only slightly better then players will complain there isn't enough difference in rewards to make doing the harder content worth it. Best to just leave the rewards the same for both and let players choose the level of difficulty they want for the fun of it.
The major rewards (debatable) for dungeons right now are transmute stones. Both normal and vet offer up the same reward. Where are the majority of the people?
I don't know about you, but I'm not seeing large amounts of people complaining that monster helms won't drop in normals. That they can't get godslayer in a normal. People look at where the rewards are and make the determination to get them or not.
Smaller scaled vet instances -delves, publics and stories should be used as a testing ground. If popular then expand it out. New and old.
The rewards being equal in the randoms (the reward from the random) are a bit of issue IMO, and shouldnt be that way. Normals should be where new(er) players go to learn, do the quests, etc. Instead it's more of an XP/crystal farm. Unfortunately ZOS has set that precedence already and I doubt that if we had veteran instances of anything to do with overland that the rewards would scale appropriately until the randoms do as well.1 -
ZOS_ConnorGmodGreetings all,
After review it appears that this thread is beginning to derail somewhat. While no posts have been edited or removed yet and tangents are acceptable remember to get back to the topic at hand so that the thread does not derail.0 -
Thechuckage✭✭✭✭✭Agenericname wrote: »Thechuckage wrote: »Thechuckage wrote: »
You're missing the point.If you think the game is like a job you are not playing right.
If people are given the option of a harder and easier task for the same reward, the average person will pick the easier task because why do something harder if you're gonna get the same as doing an easier thing?
There will be people doing the harder task purely out of a sense of pride, but everyone else will likely take the easier task.
And you know, that's not exactly a good thing, because it doesn't encourage people to improve upon themselves. It is why I would rather see Overland to be just a bit harder baseline than be Beginner-level easy for the entirety of the 70% of the game.
I am not missing the point. People start these threads saying it would be more fun if the content were more of a challenge. More fun would be the reward. This suggestion is about making the game more entertaining and shouldn't be about getting a better drop.
It can be both. More challenge and greater rewards. Not to mention that is inline with the current reward system. Tougher content, better rewards.
Personally don't think it should be anything crazy or unable to get without doing vet OW. IE more gold, purples instead of blues, more mats as examples.
I agree it can be both but with new content only. I still think it would be a bad idea to go back and separate base overland into normal and vet with vet dropping additional rewards. We then get into the problem of how much better. If the rewards are quite a bit better players will complain that they are missing out. If the rewards are only slightly better then players will complain there isn't enough difference in rewards to make doing the harder content worth it. Best to just leave the rewards the same for both and let players choose the level of difficulty they want for the fun of it.
The major rewards (debatable) for dungeons right now are transmute stones. Both normal and vet offer up the same reward. Where are the majority of the people?
I don't know about you, but I'm not seeing large amounts of people complaining that monster helms won't drop in normals. That they can't get godslayer in a normal. People look at where the rewards are and make the determination to get them or not.
Smaller scaled vet instances -delves, publics and stories should be used as a testing ground. If popular then expand it out. New and old.
The rewards being equal in the randoms (the reward from the random) are a bit of issue IMO, and shouldnt be that way. Normals should be where new(er) players go to learn, do the quests, etc. Instead it's more of an XP/crystal farm. Unfortunately ZOS has set that precedence already and I doubt that if we had veteran instances of anything to do with overland that the rewards would scale appropriately until the randoms do as well.
I 100% agree that dungeon randoms are an issue and should be handled differently. While they have set that precedent, Zos has also set a precedent for making sweeping changes. Hope springs eternal and all that jazz
Incentivizing the players to move into a tier of content more inline with their power levels would be a good thing, in dungeon or out. (Notice, nowhere do that say forced.)Edited by Thechuckage on April 27, 2021 3:46PM1 -
Ninrod86✭✭✭Craglorn original concept wasnt a bad idea, it was just ahead of its time and somehow bad implemented.
They can pretty much "test " a new vet mode by just using a few regions like craglorn. Also, the wholle "player nerfs" coming alongside with the companions, it is a pretty much confirmation that we may be getting some harder content.
The companions are for those casuals, so they can actualy do the content aswell.
1 -
cyberjanet✭✭✭✭✭Vanquish.Favourite NPC: Wine-For-All
Mostly PC-EU , with a lonely little guy on NA.0 -
Anonx31st✭✭✭This type of solo content is catered around casual and relaxing game play. It isn't meant to be as challenging as group content like vet hm dlc dungeons or trials.1
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Anonx31st✭✭✭Thechuckage wrote: »
Sure, I can see your point. However, I don't think ZOS should be designating resources to this area of the game when they could be using it somewhere else with more of a priority.2 -
Iccotak✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭This type of solo content is catered around casual and relaxing game play. It isn't meant to be as challenging as group content like vet hm dlc dungeons or trials.
1. This is assuming that everyone find super easy content relaxing AND enjoyable rather than dull & boring. Some of us would find Overland more enjoyable & relaxing if it actually engaged our brains. This is an Action MMORPG not a visual novel - if I wanted a walking simulator then I would play that.
Skyrim was about questing but it still had difficulty settings to spice up the questing experience, made the world threatening and actually more fun.
2. there is a compromise between; Extreme casual for player of any skill - vs - Vet HM content for the very skilled.
Like I said beforethe problem isn’t that there is no hard content in the game, there is plenty of hard content.
The problem is that engaging story & engaging gameplay have been made to be completely separate. We would love questing but we are getting tired of it being ridiculously easy. It ruins the story
Nobody is asking for overland content to become like Dark Souls -- But at some point well before the game's zillion hours of questing is over, many of us begin to feel that the unchanging, bottom-tier difficulty of the quests makes it harder for us to be immersed in the story.
This is a game, after all, NOT a visual novel.Edited by Iccotak on April 27, 2021 11:31PM0 -
Iccotak✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Thechuckage wrote: »
Sure, I can see your point. However, I don't think ZOS should be designating resources to this area of the game when they could be using it somewhere else with more of a priority.
Or they can do both...as they often have to do. Both updating/fixing the system AND implementing new systems.
You, and others, many not think that ZOS should put resources to this, others disagree.0 -
Hapexamendios✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Take off all equipment and skills. You can't equip anything you pick up. Have fun.1 -
Thechuckage✭✭✭✭✭Hapexamendios wrote: »Take off all equipment and skills. You can't equip anything you pick up. Have fun.
Make a full on trial tank, all support no dps sets. Only support skills. Go kill a world boss, tell us how fun it is.1 -
Hapexamendios✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Thechuckage wrote: »Hapexamendios wrote: »Take off all equipment and skills. You can't equip anything you pick up. Have fun.
Make a full on trial tank, all support no dps sets. Only support skills. Go kill a world boss, tell us how fun it is.
Been there. Done that. Was fun.0 -
kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Thechuckage wrote: »Thechuckage wrote: »
You're missing the point.If you think the game is like a job you are not playing right.
If people are given the option of a harder and easier task for the same reward, the average person will pick the easier task because why do something harder if you're gonna get the same as doing an easier thing?
There will be people doing the harder task purely out of a sense of pride, but everyone else will likely take the easier task.
And you know, that's not exactly a good thing, because it doesn't encourage people to improve upon themselves. It is why I would rather see Overland to be just a bit harder baseline than be Beginner-level easy for the entirety of the 70% of the game.
I am not missing the point. People start these threads saying it would be more fun if the content were more of a challenge. More fun would be the reward. This suggestion is about making the game more entertaining and shouldn't be about getting a better drop.
It can be both. More challenge and greater rewards. Not to mention that is inline with the current reward system. Tougher content, better rewards.
Personally don't think it should be anything crazy or unable to get without doing vet OW. IE more gold, purples instead of blues, more mats as examples.
I agree it can be both but with new content only. I still think it would be a bad idea to go back and separate base overland into normal and vet with vet dropping additional rewards. We then get into the problem of how much better. If the rewards are quite a bit better players will complain that they are missing out. If the rewards are only slightly better then players will complain there isn't enough difference in rewards to make doing the harder content worth it. Best to just leave the rewards the same for both and let players choose the level of difficulty they want for the fun of it.
The major rewards (debatable) for dungeons right now are transmute stones. Both normal and vet offer up the same reward. Where are the majority of the people?
I don't know about you, but I'm not seeing large amounts of people complaining that monster helms won't drop in normals. That they can't get godslayer in a normal. People look at where the rewards are and make the determination to get them or not.
Smaller scaled vet instances -delves, publics and stories should be used as a testing ground. If popular then expand it out. New and old.
Players do complain they can't get the Sunspire skin without doing vet mode. And we do see complaints about the difficulty of getting monster sets. Either way it isn't pertinent to my argument. We are talking overland content. The first thing a player sees after finishing the tutorial. People want more difficulty in this content because they say it would be more engaging. Many have offered that opinion and have said they would do that content whether the rewards were increased or not. Increasing rewards could alienate part of the player base so why take that chance with overland content? Again either the rewards are going to be so underwhelming in their difference as to not matter at all leading to complaints or so much better players feel they are being left out if they do not do the harder mode. Leave the rewards out and make the emphasis on enjoying the harder content.and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."0 -
Iccotak✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Hapexamendios wrote: »Take off all equipment and skills. You can't equip anything you pick up. Have fun.
been there done that. Not Fun at all.
EDIT: Also you're telling me the only way to have fun in overland is to not play the game the way it was designed? - That is very poor designEdited by Iccotak on April 28, 2021 12:41AM0 -
Iccotak✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭People want more difficulty in this content because they say it would be more engaging. Many have offered that opinion and have said they would do that content whether the rewards were increased or not. Increasing rewards could alienate part of the player base so why take that chance with overland content?
Like I said before
There are no exceptions to this in the game. You yourself noted this with how ZOS designs events.Some will, sure, but if ZOS wants to maximize participants. (which they would) They will do what they always have done and have added incentive & reward to encourage people to play. This is how they do it.
Because the game is designed around incentive. Everything the game offers is designed around a reward system. Every. Single. Thing.
"Good example of this is the number of players that towards the end of the last event were completely over the crafting on every player they have but made sure not to miss a night because of the boxes."
Further moreIt is also about getting New people interested. not just for old players. Like I said before - You cannot make an activity that satisfies one specific desire, the activity has to have multiple reasons to play again and again and again.
ZOS goes out of their way to make sure the activity incentivizes maximum participation. They have to do that in order to justify investing & developing the feature. Because not everyone is motivated by only challenge, plenty do it for reward.
You keep saying there would be mass alienation if ZOS applies this system + reward to older content, that it could only be applied to the new content that came with the feature. That the supposed alienation would not be worth it - but I very highly doubt this theoretical reality.
It is more likely to incentivize than discourage. It is a goal that people will reach for.this "distinction" between old & new content is irrelevant, and is arbitrary, because the interest that it would raise for the average player is likely far greater than the supposed alienation.
If the features added rewards only applied to the new content that it came with, then you would see a mass concentration in the new content, and not very many participating in the vet content in the rest of the game.
When ZOS adds a feature - a key design point is that it adds value to the whole game and not just the DLC. If it doesn't do that then it is a failed feature.
You keep saying that "if" ZOS were to make Vet Overland, that they shouldn't include higher tier of rewards for participation.
What we are saying is that it is not a matter of "should" or "should not" - ZOS in all likelihood would implement that kind of reward system, because that is how they have designed the whole game so far.
A better and more realistic question is NOT "Should they add rewards?" but rather "What would be an acceptable reward?"1 -
oddbasket✭✭✭✭✭
✭I will never understand the demand for vet overland, overland difficulty is tailored for new/leveling players and first clears. I would never want to spend more time than I have to for repeating content for the nth time, say like I would rather spend 10 mins for public dungeon clear achievement and skill point rather than 20 on an alt character.
Those who seek challenge through overland don't seem to actually want challenge, because there's no challenge clearing trash mobs mindlessly even if they are made more difficult. A challenge is something purposeful, demanding and really puts the player to the test, not simply dragging out casual content which is what overland is. Putting a vet mode to overland will just make players try it once for novelty on a 40mins public dungeon and then never do it again by going back to the 10 mins version because it would be boring as heck.
What I would propose for challenge seekers is a solo challenge dungeon mode for all the try hards. Turn on the mode, and you can only enter the dungeon solo, the mods and bosses including mechanics will be adjusted for solo or with companion (what better time to do this?) based on the veteran difficulty. There can also be achievements and rewards based on the difficulty of the achievements which can bring out of reach rewards for solo players like skins, personalities or mounts which are usually tied to group content achievements to them. This can give solo players some bragging rights too, and can even help ZOS sell dungeon DLCs to solo players.1 -
Iccotak✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I will never understand the demand for vet overland, overland difficulty is tailored for new/leveling players and first clears.
You say will never understand the "Why" when people are telling you why?
Keep in mind we get new zones every year and many of us do that content with our mains, and much of that content is questing.the problem isn’t that there is no hard content in the game, there is plenty of hard content.
The problem is that engaging story & engaging gameplay have been made to be completely separate. We would love questing but we are getting tired of it being ridiculously easy. It ruins the story
Nobody is asking for overland content to become like Dark Souls -- But at some point well before the game's zillion hours of questing is over, many of us begin to feel that the unchanging, bottom-tier difficulty of the quests makes it harder for us to be immersed in the story.
This is a game, after all, NOT a visual novel.
0
This discussion has been closed.