Delves, Public dungeons and group delves NEED a "veteran" mode

SilverBride

Amottica wrote: »

I cannot imagine the effort to manage all of that gear for balancing.

I agree. But I really can't imagine all the work to manage this on not just 4 worlds, but 8...

NA normal, NA veteran, EU normal, EU veteran, Xbox normal, Xbox veteran, PS4 normal, PS4 veteran.

It would be a patch day nightmare.

PizzaCat82

Fhritz wrote: »

Hi everyone.

Today I want to talk about the difficulty of the "solo" content. This content is actually too easy for someone who know some base mechanic of the game. While delves and public dungeons are actually good and enjoyable, the difficulty make them look like a simple walk around some beautiful places rather than actually dangerous places.

That's why these delves need an optional "veteran" mode, like every group instance in the game. My best memory of the game was vMA. I cried tears and blood, but I finally passed it. It was hard, but that's why this arena is actually "fun" and quite enjoyable. vVH is cool too, even if it's easier. I didn't even do it for the gear (I got the vMA perfected bow first time on my stam character tho) but actually because I wanted a solo "challenging content". The level of craglorn delves are what I exept about a "veteran difficulty" : If every "veteran" delves were as difficult as Shada's tear, I think every delves in the gain may gain in interest for vet player, because for now this content is literally, i think, "wasted"

What are your thoughts ? Feel free to debate !

No one goes and does the Cragslorn delves. So increasing the difficulty doesn't make them more popular from what I can see.

MirandaSharp

Just give us a difficulty setting that nerfs our character so we can enjoy the quests. No need for any rewards(they're already there). For me it's really about enjoying the quest story and feel like you actually accomplished something when you beat that big bad end boss in the quest line. Now I don't even notice the difference between the boss and trash mobs. Sometimes I have to hit twice, so that was probably a boss then.... ?

Even the now ancient Skyrim had a difficulty setting..

MirandaSharp

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

You cant have the public mobs being two different difficulties at the same time. Imagine if your in "harder mode" and the guy next to you is in "easy mode", what they mob your both attacking going to do?

Of course you can! A difficulty setting will only nerf your character, that's all. Lets say "hard mode" simply cuts all your stats in half and a "nightmare" mode may cut them down by 75%. Nothing needs to change in zones or monsters or whatever.

Mrtoobyy

I would love this. Make delves/public dungeons "instances" where we can choose veteran difficulty. I reeealllyyy miss the days when they game game out and exploring/leveling really felt evolving

Raegwyr

SilverBride wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

I cannot imagine the effort to manage all of that gear for balancing.

I agree. But I really can't imagine all the work to manage this on not just 4 worlds, but 8...

NA normal, NA veteran, EU normal, EU veteran, Xbox normal, Xbox veteran, PS4 normal, PS4 veteran.

It would be a patch day nightmare.

Multiple ppl already told you that world is splited into different instances and only thing that would change is that instances would be grouped into normal/vet category instead of all going into normal category.
The only cost for devs is development, not a maintenance.
[snip] for you the difficulty is okay. Which in reality for many players it is not.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

g_linked

As a mostly solo, casual player over the years it would be nice to have the option of privately instanced delves, public dungeons, and quests that have instanced portions or phasing elements. It stinks to walk into some boss part of a quest only to see another player has basically nearly killed it, causing the quest to just progress. It also stinks to have everything in a dungeon or delve blasted away before it can be touched.

Difficulty is another issue and could definitely use a bump up, even if it's just more hp and damage. I doubt that will do much for max-tier geared raiders, but it would definitely make things less of a snoozefest for someone like me in the 500 cp range. For example I've been trying to get more skill points for my crafting character and he has zero combat passives and training gear but I've had no problem with delves, public dungeons and overland. He probably can't solo a world boss yet though. It's actually a quite a bit more fun to fight with him in overland/delves/pub dungeons because he lacks the passives and gear that would make everything a too weak like it is for my more combat-oriented main. I think separate instances and a difficulty slider or harder/veteran mode would be best. Perhaps some percentage increase on xp and gold as well as an increased chance for a higher color of gear to drop?

SilverBride

The only aspects of the game that need veteran levels are dungeons, trials and arenas, and we already have these.

I understand that some players may not enjoy grouping with others. Or maybe they don't have the dps or meet the other requirements to be accepted into these groups. But that is a different issue.

Regardless, it is unreasonable to expect that a completely separate instance of the game be created so players have a way to farm veteran drops without having to group with others and run the actual veteran content that is already provided.

Sevn

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

Fhritz wrote: »

Hi everyone.

Today I want to talk about the difficulty of the "solo" content. This content is actually too easy for someone who know some base mechanic of the game. While delves and public dungeons are actually good and enjoyable, the difficulty make them look like a simple walk around some beautiful places rather than actually dangerous places.

That's why these delves need an optional "veteran" mode, like every group instance in the game. My best memory of the game was vMA. I cried tears and blood, but I finally passed it. It was hard, but that's why this arena is actually "fun" and quite enjoyable. vVH is cool too, even if it's easier. I didn't even do it for the gear (I got the vMA perfected bow first time on my stam character tho) but actually because I wanted a solo "challenging content". The level of craglorn delves are what I exept about a "veteran difficulty" : If every "veteran" delves were as difficult as Shada's tear, I think every delves in the gain may gain in interest for vet player, because for now this content is literally, i think, "wasted"

What are your thoughts ? Feel free to debate !

No one goes and does the Cragslorn delves. So increasing the difficulty doesn't make them more popular from what I can see.

This has been my experience. I spend so much time farming in Craglorn and lemme tell you, it's just us farmers.

I know I'm better than the average eso player and find myself utterly alone there, time and time again. Craglorn is my go to zone whenever I'm looking for a challenge in the openworld.

No add rewards, in fact the rewards in the delves are garbage but it's the only zone that has enemies that will definitely challenge you and kill you, and it's usually a ghost town and it has nothing to do with quests requiring a group because they changed all that.

I think we get why Craglorn failed yesteryear, it's been repeated quite often, but someone explain why Craglorn is still unpopular today since those restrictions no longer exist and the challenging content is still there?

orion_1981usub17_ESO

MirandaSharp wrote: »

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

You cant have the public mobs being two different difficulties at the same time. Imagine if your in "harder mode" and the guy next to you is in "easy mode", what they mob your both attacking going to do?

Of course you can! A difficulty setting will only nerf your character, that's all. Lets say "hard mode" simply cuts all your stats in half and a "nightmare" mode may cut them down by 75%. Nothing needs to change in zones or monsters or whatever.

YOU CAN DO THAT YOURSELF ALREADY! What's actually stopping you?

Iccotak

MirandaSharp wrote: »

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

You cant have the public mobs being two different difficulties at the same time. Imagine if your in "harder mode" and the guy next to you is in "easy mode", what they mob your both attacking going to do?

Of course you can! A difficulty setting will only nerf your character, that's all. Lets say "hard mode" simply cuts all your stats in half and a "nightmare" mode may cut them down by 75%. Nothing needs to change in zones or monsters or whatever.

That would be awful and ineffective just as nerfing yourself has already shown to be a poor solution.

SilverBride

Sevn wrote: »

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

No one goes and does the Cragslorn delves. So increasing the difficulty doesn't make them more popular from what I can see.

This has been my experience. I spend so much time farming in Craglorn and lemme tell you, it's just us farmers.

I know I'm better than the average eso player and find myself utterly alone there, time and time again. Craglorn is my go to zone whenever I'm looking for a challenge in the openworld.

No add rewards, in fact the rewards in the delves are garbage but it's the only zone that has enemies that will definitely challenge you and kill you, and it's usually a ghost town and it has nothing to do with quests requiring a group because they changed all that.

I think we get why Craglorn failed yesteryear, it's been repeated quite often, but someone explain why Craglorn is still unpopular today since those restrictions no longer exist and the challenging content is still there?

This has been my experience, too.

I have avoided Craglorn because of the bad experience I had with it before. But it's the last zone I had to clear on my main so I gave it a try. I was able to complete the story quests and all the single player content but was unable to solo the group quest and delve bosses.

I thought I'd try to find some groups to complete these but I couldn't because no one was running them. There is just not enough interest. Why would a veteran delve in any other zone be any different?

Iccotak

Sevn wrote: »

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

Fhritz wrote: »

Hi everyone.

Today I want to talk about the difficulty of the "solo" content. This content is actually too easy for someone who know some base mechanic of the game. While delves and public dungeons are actually good and enjoyable, the difficulty make them look like a simple walk around some beautiful places rather than actually dangerous places.

That's why these delves need an optional "veteran" mode, like every group instance in the game. My best memory of the game was vMA. I cried tears and blood, but I finally passed it. It was hard, but that's why this arena is actually "fun" and quite enjoyable. vVH is cool too, even if it's easier. I didn't even do it for the gear (I got the vMA perfected bow first time on my stam character tho) but actually because I wanted a solo "challenging content". The level of craglorn delves are what I exept about a "veteran difficulty" : If every "veteran" delves were as difficult as Shada's tear, I think every delves in the gain may gain in interest for vet player, because for now this content is literally, i think, "wasted"

What are your thoughts ? Feel free to debate !

No one goes and does the Cragslorn delves. So increasing the difficulty doesn't make them more popular from what I can see.

This has been my experience. I spend so much time farming in Craglorn and lemme tell you, it's just us farmers.

I know I'm better than the average eso player and find myself utterly alone there, time and time again. Craglorn is my go to zone whenever I'm looking for a challenge in the openworld.

No add rewards, in fact the rewards in the delves are garbage but it's the only zone that has enemies that will definitely challenge you and kill you, and it's usually a ghost town and it has nothing to do with quests requiring a group because they changed all that.

I think we get why Craglorn failed yesteryear, it's been repeated quite often, but someone explain why Craglorn is still unpopular today since those restrictions no longer exist and the challenging content is still there?

The quests don't require a group - but the delves still do.
Much of the zone is covered in patches of "Group Areas" & other group orientated activities.

The zone definitely still pushes grouping on the players and is just covered with more enemies.

What people have asked for in a "Veteran Zone" is different. They are asking the general enemy populace to not be super bad at their job, to actually be engaging on some level to fight. Seeing as how there are over 20 zones to play & level through - they would like the experience to have more engaging gameplay and not for everything to be equally mediocre.

because once you have become just merely adequate at overland - the content becomes stale, the enemies are all useless.

And it is not just Vet players asking for this - it has actually been a common point of feedback amongst new players trying out the game.

SilverBride wrote: »

The only aspects of the game that need veteran levels are dungeons, trials and arenas, and we already have these.

I understand that some players may not enjoy grouping with others. Or maybe they don't have the dps or meet the other requirements to be accepted into these groups. But that is a different issue.

Regardless, it is unreasonable to expect that a completely separate instance of the game be created so players have a way to farm veteran drops without having to group with others and run the actual veteran content that is already provided.

It actually is not the issues you listed - but more so that the lack of engaging gameplay makes almost the entirety of overland boring and feel more like a chore. Something to get over with. We'd like to enjoy the questing & story experience but it is just not very engaging on a gameplay level - which is actually pretty important for a game about killing & looting.

It also makes for a very disappointing main story experience - and overall makes the content feel less of value.
So those wanting the story & quest experience to actually be fun should just go to the little corner of group/endgame and be happy?
Yeah tell that to new players. I had friends who found that very unappealing and left. They liked the dungeons & arenas, but questing was just painfully "meh". - The Journey is just as important as the destination -

It lacked any excitement because nothing was a threat. Nothing made them think about what they were doing. It was like dealing with speed bumps - and the main story kept on resulting in the feeling "That's it?" - not good. If the Journey is often boring then people are not going to stick around till the destination.

Me? I cannot get excited about a new storyline when it's basically a walking simulator, a point-and-click adventure. Nothing against those games but ESO is an action oriented MMORPG, its all about overcoming challenge - there is no challenge in ESO main storylines. There is no sense of actually earning your victory, they're practically handed to you on a silver platter - and the "hero" compliments ring hollow when there was no effort to beat them. Engaging Gameplay & Engaging Story have become mutually exclusive and I think it is a major flaw of the game.

and no self nerf does not work because it does not address the issue of mechanics - boring fight is now just longer & more tedious.

Also it is not entirely unreasonable as ZOS themselves know that overland is extremely beginner friendly which is why they had worked on a "Veteran" setting for overland.
If they will ever pick that up again - who knows.

I thought I'd try to find some groups to complete these but I couldn't because no one was running them. There is just not enough interest. Why would a veteran delve in any other zone be any different?

This is framing it as if people are asking for delves to become group content, like Craglorn - which is not the case.
People are asking for Solo content to be more fun.

SilverBride

Iccotak wrote: »

Yeah tell that to new players. I had friends who found that very unappealing and left. They liked the dungeons & arenas, but questing was just painfully "meh". It lacked any excitement because nothing was a threat. Nothing made them think about what they were doing. It was like dealing with speed bumps - and the main story kept on resulting in the feeling "That's it?" - not good.

Also it is not entirely unreasonable as ZOS themselves know that overland is extremely beginner friendly which is why they had worked on a "Veteran" setting for overland.
If they will ever pick that up again - who knows.

ESO isn't for everyone. There are some gamers who aren't going to find it their cup of tea. But changing ESO into something it isn't is not reasonable for something that is just a fact.

Where is the proof that ZoS ever worked on a veteran overland? If you are referring to the reddit post where they mentioned they had originally considered implementing such with One Tamriel, that was several years ago. And they only mentioned they considered it, not that they had actually worked on it.

Iccotak wrote: »

People are asking for Solo content to be more fun.

No. Some players are asking for it to be harder. Harder doesn't make it more fun for most players. Harder doesn't make it fresh and new again. Harder won't cure burnout.

Iccotak

SilverBride wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Yeah tell that to new players. I had friends who found that very unappealing and left. They liked the dungeons & arenas, but questing was just painfully "meh". It lacked any excitement because nothing was a threat. Nothing made them think about what they were doing. It was like dealing with speed bumps - and the main story kept on resulting in the feeling "That's it?" - not good.

Also it is not entirely unreasonable as ZOS themselves know that overland is extremely beginner friendly which is why they had worked on a "Veteran" setting for overland.
If they will ever pick that up again - who knows.

ESO isn't for everyone. There are some gamers who aren't going to find it their cup of tea. But changing ESO into something it isn't is not reasonable for something that is just a fact. [/b]

Change it into something it is not? We are not asking for Dark Souls, or any other game. We are asking the general combat experience to be more engaging, challenging, and to actually utilize its tools - because we know it is perfectly able of doing that. We are asking for a version of Overland that is NOT a cake walk.

We are asking for a separate instance as to not affect the experience for fresh beginners or people like you whom are perfectly happy with where they are at.

Where is the proof that ZoS ever worked on a veteran overland?

If you are referring to the reddit post where they mentioned they had originally considered implementing such with One Tamriel, that was several years ago. And they only mentioned they considered it, not that they had actually worked on it.

Incorrect.

From Reddit about 1 year ago
Link: https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/bwdb0r/comment/epwrb9x
Text of answer

ZOS_MattF
Hello! We have no plans on implementing spears, but we have talked off and on about cool ways to do the one hand magic/one hand weapon thing. That's not on our roadmap anywhere, but we have been brainstorming.

There are so many cool things we could do! Seriously, we love these ideas too, but it all comes down to a matter of time and priorities.

EDIT: to respond to your edit. Yes, we've talked about this, in fact we tried to get that into the game as part of One Tamriel, but we just couldn't get it done. So we have ideas on how to have difficulty settings for overland content, but it's not currently planned. It's a great idea.

SilverBride

@Iccotak Without requoting all that, I will just address this part.

"Yes, we've talked about this, in fact we tried to get that into the game as part of One Tamriel, but we just couldn't get it done. So we have ideas on how to have difficulty settings for overland content, but it's not currently planned."

Talking about it and having ideas does not mean they actually started implementing it. One Tamriel was 5 years ago. This idea is obviously not a priority.

I'm sorry if some players don't enjoy the game any more, but it's not because the game is too easy. It's just burnout and that happens to a lot of players over time. That is why players take breaks and do something different now and then. Making the base game harder won't change that.

And some players new to ESO won't enjoy it, because not everyone is going to find it to their liking.

Thechuckage

How is someone new to the game getting burned out? And how exactly do you determine why people stop playing? I could leverage the heck out of that superpower.

Furthermore, I thought the overland should be welcoming to everyone. How is expanding the ways to do overland in any way detrimental?

Giving players more options most often leads to higher player retention. High retention -> better cost/benefit.

Cryptor

"need" is a strong word but it would be nice.

Iccotak

SilverBride wrote: »

Without requoting all that, I will just address this part.

"Yes, we've talked about this, in fact we tried to get that into the game as part of One Tamriel, but we just couldn't get it done. So we have ideas on how to have difficulty settings for overland content, but it's not currently planned."

Talking about it and having ideas does not mean they actually started implementing it. One Tamriel was 5 years ago. This idea is obviously not a priority.

I'm sorry if some players don't enjoy the game any more, but it's not because the game is too easy. It's just burnout and that happens to a lot of players over time. That is why players take breaks and do something different now and then. Making the base game harder won't change that.

1. They Tried to get it into the game - it is not planned as far as we know but they actually did work on it. It did go beyond "Just Ideas". Which they clearly stated, as I pointed to.

2. It is not burnout - because it is not just longtime players making this criticism, but also New Players as well.

It is perfectly fine that you enjoy your questing experience the way it is, and no one is trying to take it from you, however that does not make it perfect for everyone else. Nor does your enjoyment of the way things are invalidate others criticism.

[Edit to remove bait]

Iccotak

No. Some players are asking for it to be harder. Harder doesn't make it more fun for most players. Harder doesn't make it fresh and new again. Harder won't cure burnout.

Why would people be asking for it to be harder? Could it be because it being harder is a variable in what makes it fun? Could it be that tougher enemies who are actually tougher (more stats & more abilities) actually do make the experience more exciting & fun?

Could it also be that maybe, just maybe, that it is not a case of burnout when this is a point of criticism also made by new players.

In fact - here is Player Feedback after 4 months of playing

https://youtu.be/Vf-X7Deb--I

Around 8:25

I feel that the outdoor world is a bit too easy about 90% of the time and way too tedious the other 10%.
What I mean is the majority of the mobs you’re gonna fight in this game in the outside world are pathetically simple to slaughter.

You can cut them down by the dozens no problem but then you’ll encounter bigger NPCs every so often that take a little bit of time to kill because they have these big large health pools.

Now this wouldn’t be a big deal but the “Big NPCs” usually don’t have any mechanics aside from the basic ones that pretty much all NPCs have.

A forward cone attack, a leap-over-strike, and so on. That means you end up fighting tougher regular NPCs with a larger health pool, it just takes a while to kill them and just slows things down. I don’t think that’s fun.

If you’re gonna have tougher NPCs in the open world, you gotta make them Tougher - more mechanics, more ways that they can kill you, and so on and so forth.

kargen27

Creating vet instances of overland would take a complete rework of all encounters to make the fights interesting. Just bumping up the damage enemies can do and give them more health/resistances wouldn't do it. Without new mechanics to make the fights interesting the battles would be just as boring to those that find them boring now. All that would change is that the boring fights would last longer.
I would like to see vet instances of more content but overland content is probably way beyond what is feasible. Public dungeons might be doable though? Again with no extra rewards because this is about excitement and fun as you stated above when you said, "Why would people be asking for it to be harder? Could it be because it being harder is a variable in what makes it fun? Could it be that tougher enemies who are actually tougher (more stats & more abilities) actually do make the experience more exciting & fun?"

Iccotak

kargen27 wrote: »

Creating vet instances of overland would take a complete rework of all encounters to make the fights interesting. Just bumping up the damage enemies can do and give them more health/resistances wouldn't do it. Without new mechanics to make the fights interesting the battles would be just as boring to those that find them boring now. All that would change is that the boring fights would last longer.

I would like to see vet instances of more content but overland content is probably way beyond what is feasible. Public dungeons might be doable though?

Again with no extra rewards because this is about excitement and fun as you stated above when you said, "Why would people be asking for it to be harder? Could it be because it being harder is a variable in what makes it fun? Could it be that tougher enemies who are actually tougher (more stats & more abilities) actually do make the experience more exciting & fun?"

Because there are multiple variables that go into making something fun - have an incentive for more than one type of player. Different players are incentivized by different things, even multiple things.

One thing that entices players does not invalidate the other thing that entices players.

You cannot make an activity that fulfills just one very specific and niche desire. The activity has to have multiple reasons for different players to play again and again and again.

like I said before: when it comes to activities, ZOS wants to maximize participants because they have to do that in order to justify investing & developing an activity / feature. Because not everyone is motivated by only challenge, plenty do it for reward, and plenty do it for both.

Give them more than just one very specific reason to play that content - that's how ZOS does it.

MirandaSharp

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

MirandaSharp wrote: »

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

You cant have the public mobs being two different difficulties at the same time. Imagine if your in "harder mode" and the guy next to you is in "easy mode", what they mob your both attacking going to do?

Of course you can! A difficulty setting will only nerf your character, that's all. Lets say "hard mode" simply cuts all your stats in half and a "nightmare" mode may cut them down by 75%. Nothing needs to change in zones or monsters or whatever.

YOU CAN DO THAT YOURSELF ALREADY! What's actually stopping you?

No I can't. It's a massive hassle to try doing this just because I want to enjoy a quest after running a pledge. I'd rather hop on to a lowbie character with no CP than trying to nerf my main. I'd love to use my main for questing to collect achievements etc, but it's just not enjoyable when you're high level.

kargen27

"You cannot make an activity that fulfills just one very specific and niche desire."

True but that has little to nothing to do with increased rewards. Players doing a vet version of a public dungeon would still get the rewards they normally would and have the added bonus of the content being more fun.

"like I said before: when it comes to activities, ZOS wants to maximize participants because they have to do that in order to justify investing & developing an activity / feature. Because not everyone is motivated by only challenge, plenty do it for reward, and plenty do it for both.

Give them more than just one very specific reason to play that content - that's how ZOS does it."

And the rewards would not be taken away. They simply wouldn't increase. Either way I really doubt ZoS is going to put resources into creating new instances of already created content. Simply isn't worth their time as it isn't a matter of just making things hit harder.

SilverBride

Claiming that veteran rewards is so ZoS will seriously consider this proposition as worthy of their time does not hold water. In fact, it would be a deterrent because it would cause more problems that it's worth.

Can you imagine how someone who geared up for veteran trials, and trained their rotations, and prepared by learning all the fights would feel to see someone who never stepped foot in a trial wearing veteran gear they got from doing overland content?

That would cause complete conflict among the player base, and totally render veteran dungeons and trials as not worth anyone's time and effort.

However, regardless of anyone's thoughts on that, there is just not enough support to justify something that very few players would ever utilize.

Fata1moose

I'd like the whole overland to receive a veteran mode but this would be better than nothing.

Alurria

You have to ask yourself at this point in the conversation, why do devs create veteran content? I have never seen them go back and make a whole separate overland harder for a a small portion of any community. But ask yourself why we have vet content such as dungeons trials raids there is pvp also. Overland was meant for new players and people making alts. So what you want is a whole separate world to wander around in so the player base would be split. I don't think they want the player base split. Again even reworking all the bosses in dungeons and delves would require more time and effort for little return. Unless you want to subscribe and rebuy why would they spend the man power and money? Everything in this thread has been hashed and rehashed. It's nice that a few people want a new world and all but then where does it end once you beat the harder content what then? Another instance? It will never end.

Iccotak

SilverBride wrote: »

However, regardless of anyone's thoughts on that, there is just not enough support to justify something that very few players would ever utilize.

You keep saying that yet I have not seen an data to back this claim

Iccotak

Alurria wrote: »

It's nice that a few people want a new world and all but then where does it end once you beat the harder content what then? Another instance? It will never end.

There is clearly a level above "beginner" that most people would find acceptable.

Like it was said by someone who played for 4 months

I feel that the outdoor world is a bit too easy about 90% of the time and way too tedious the other 10%.
What I mean is the majority of the mobs you’re gonna fight in this game in the outside world are pathetically simple to slaughter.

You can cut them down by the dozens no problem but then you’ll encounter bigger NPCs every so often that take a little bit of time to kill because they have these big large health pools.

If you’re gonna have tougher NPCs in the open world, you gotta make them Tougher - more mechanics, more ways that they can kill you, and so on and so forth.

So yes there is clearly an acceptable level of increase and I don't find much basis in this "it will never end" argument.

SilverBride

Iccotak wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

However, regardless of anyone's thoughts on that, there is just not enough support to justify something that very few players would ever utilize.

You keep saying that yet I have not seen an data to back this claim

Nor have we seen any to the contrary.

As far as all these new players who quit because it was too easy... where are they? Stating what someone else said is hearsay. If these players have something to say they need to speak for themselves.