Delves, Public dungeons and group delves NEED a "veteran" mode

ValueDrift

hands0medevil wrote: »

Awesome idea but been discussed many times and probably led us to CP nerf. Because what is the point in making solo content more difficult when we can nerf op players. It's faster, more simple and will satisfy current core client... I mean player base.

A few percent nerfs won't fix this problem. There is a massive gap in difficulty between the hardest and the easiest stuff. If we were to nerf so much that the easiest stuff becomes challenging for best builds, then everything but the easiest stuff becomes impossible, and also the easiest stuff becomes impossible for a large percentage of the player base.

Multiple difficulty options really is the only fix here.

Tommy_The_Gun

No problem with harder content....

...But...

I would absolutely HATE to have to farm overland gear again to add it to collections, just because it will be perfected, with no auto-upgrade.

Remember how literally evrey one who did vMA before the update got screwed, because nMA started dropping MA weapons, but vMA started to drop perfected ones ? And of course, there was no auto-upgrade, even though you had done vMA countless times, just to get that destro staff or bow or whatever... ZOS basically "deleted" that effort.

Lady_Galadhiel

Uhm,no thanks.
For veteran players,the ''veteran'' public dungeons,delves and worldbosses will still be too easy.

What would be nice,for a change,would be if they would add more group dungeons into the base game and make them more difficult with harder mechanics as well as more solo/group arenas.

hafgood

Let's think about this with a bit of logic. Besides the how difficult is veteran level question and the what happens when people of normal and veteran meet at the same boss question there are some other practicalities that need addressing.

For veteran level we want longer more interesting boss fights yes? So more mechanics rather than just extra health? Agreed?

So, looking at base game of 15 zones (3 per alliance) plus Cold Harbour, but ignoring Craglorn and all chapters / dlc.

World bosses 16 * 6 = 96
Delve bosses 16 * 6 = 96
Public dungeon bosses (assuming one per zone) 16 * 5 = 90
Public dungeon group events 16 * 1 = 16

So before looking at overland mobs we have a total of 298 bosses that need additional mechs adding to them.

And then there are those in all the chapters and dlcs as well.

Thats a lot of work to design the mechanics and implement them. Plus I'm assuming that they are having different loot tables to the normal version so that's 298 loot tables to create as well.

So being practical for.a.moment how is this being paid for? It's easy enough to demand it but it's not so easy to see where the money is coming from to allow it to happen.

ValueDrift

Yeah, adding mechanics to all old content isn't realistic, but just boosting the stats of the mobs so that they live long enough to attack, you actually have to roll dodge power attacks, interrupt charges, move out of AOE, all of this would make the gameplay more interesting. Not hard, sure, but it would be more engaging than just running through the delve and deleting everything with a glance.

Sarannah

No, there shouldn't be a veteran mode for those. Especially not with higher rewards. The why is mostly about newer players being able to find help with their delve/public dungeon/group delves. If there would be a veteran mode, this would be harder to do for them.

But lets be honest... you guys don't want a veteran mode. You just want higher rewards for the same content you are doing now. We can already see this in regular dungeons. Both normals and veterans give the same amount of transmutation crystals, and we can see which mode most 'elite' players choose. They still go normal, as the rewards are the same. So this is not about difficulty.

And besides that, most experienced players run through everything in delves/public dungeons/group delves anyways. Dragging the whole area after them. So the difficulty does not matter to them. Veteran or regular mobs following them, they won't stop.

SilverBride

hands0medevil wrote: »

...been discussed many times and probably led us to CP nerf. Because what is the point in making solo content more difficult when we can nerf op players.

Exactly.

I don't know why anyone thinks overland and all its components should be veteran difficulty. No other successful MMO has hard base game zones. These zones are for leveling and telling a story and are not end game.

Iccotak

SilverBride wrote: »

hands0medevil wrote: »

...been discussed many times and probably led us to CP nerf. Because what is the point in making solo content more difficult when we can nerf op players.

Exactly.

I don't know why anyone thinks overland and all its components should be veteran difficulty. No other successful MMO has hard base game zones. These zones are for leveling and telling a story and are not end game.

Classic WoW has hard base game zones. Leveling was actually somewhat challenging. It's a big part as to why its return was such a success.

The problem in ESO is that leveling in these zones is Boring and telling a story should NOT mean that there isn't any engaging gameplay. I am playing a video game - not watching a movie. I am playing a video game about fighting - I don't want my story experience to be a walking simulator, I want fights that are actually fun & memorable which live up to the stake the writers set-up.

But let's play this out - how does asking for Overland to be harder lead to the CP nerf. Tell me - how exactly does a CP nerf make overland harder for the general casual player?

Seeing as how the CP nerf really only affects the top optimal builds in Vet & PvP, how is the average player leveling in Overland affected by this change when you do not need any CP for anything in Overland?

[snip]

[Edit for bait.]

SilverBride

Iccotak wrote: »

Classic WoW has hard base game zones. Leveling was actually somewhat challenging. It's a big part as to why its return was such a success.

No it doesn't. I played WoW from launch, and while it took a lot longer to get around and earn gold and level and be able to ride a mount, the mobs weren't any harder.

Classic WoW may be successful, I haven't looked at the numbers, but for a nostalgic reason. Players wanted to get back to a time before WoW turned into nothing but world quests and reputation grinds for every single thing.

WoW bosses and end game are all in dungeons and raids. There is no base game difficulty.

Iccotak

SilverBride wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Classic WoW has hard base game zones. Leveling was actually somewhat challenging. It's a big part as to why its return was such a success.

No it doesn't. I played WoW from launch, and while it took a lot longer to get around and earn gold and be able to ride a mount, the mobs weren't any harder.

Um yeah they were - they hit a LOT harder and players definitely did less damage & had less resources to spend on abilities - I know because I played it.

[snip]

EDIT: here a guy does an experiment and shows how both play - there is a clear difference between retail & classic
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKCk6ivjWWc

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Agenericname

Sarannah wrote: »

No, there shouldn't be a veteran mode for those. Especially not with higher rewards. The why is mostly about newer players being able to find help with their delve/public dungeon/group delves. If there would be a veteran mode, this would be harder to do for them.

But lets be honest... you guys don't want a veteran mode. You just want higher rewards for the same content you are doing now. We can already see this in regular dungeons. Both normals and veterans give the same amount of transmutation crystals, and we can see which mode most 'elite' players choose. They still go normal, as the rewards are the same. So this is not about difficulty.

And besides that, most experienced players run through everything in delves/public dungeons/group delves anyways. Dragging the whole area after them. So the difficulty does not matter to them. Veteran or regular mobs following them, they won't stop.

How would it make it any harder for them to find a group? In every piece of content of this game there is a separate instance for vet/normal or +/- 50 except overland. In most cases the complaints stem from vets being in the normal content, like speed running normal dungeons.

While that highlights other issues, it also screams that vets arent always a desirable assets in normal content. The life expectancy of a delve boss is around 3-4 seconds at most for vet players. A new player isnt getting anything but a clear, and thats if they get a shot off in time.

Not everyone is on the xp/xmute treadmill in RNDs. Despite being the same rewards (in terms of that one reward) I only do those if my charcater is under 50 or if Im playing with a friend who is. I avoid them and prefer the random vet. I would rather have the uncertainty of getting vMHK, vSG, or vLoM than the boredom of grinding normals.

If I were new, and when I was, I wouldn't want high level characters around typically. I want to play the game, not follow high level players and the trail of dead bodies they leave behind.

Iccotak

Agenericname wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

No, there shouldn't be a veteran mode for those. Especially not with higher rewards. The why is mostly about newer players being able to find help with their delve/public dungeon/group delves. If there would be a veteran mode, this would be harder to do for them.

But lets be honest... you guys don't want a veteran mode. You just want higher rewards for the same content you are doing now. We can already see this in regular dungeons. Both normals and veterans give the same amount of transmutation crystals, and we can see which mode most 'elite' players choose. They still go normal, as the rewards are the same. So this is not about difficulty.

And besides that, most experienced players run through everything in delves/public dungeons/group delves anyways. Dragging the whole area after them. So the difficulty does not matter to them. Veteran or regular mobs following them, they won't stop.

If I were new, and when I was, I wouldn't want high level characters around typically. I want to play the game, not follow high level players and the trail of dead bodies they leave behind.

Exactly!

Where is this idea that everyone wants high-end players around? Or that these endgame players want to play the boringly easy content of Overland?

- It's not fun when an overpowered character slays everything before you get a chance
- a good portion of Vet players find the majority of it boring and will play only if we have to.

EDIT: Many vet/endgame players would like to enjoy the questing & story content - but the gameplay is just not engaging and your victories are practically handed to you on a silver platter. That is Not fun.

Thechuckage

SilverBride wrote: »

hands0medevil wrote: »

...been discussed many times and probably led us to CP nerf. Because what is the point in making solo content more difficult when we can nerf op players.

Exactly.

I don't know why anyone thinks overland and all its components should be veteran difficulty. No other successful MMO has hard base game zones. These zones are for leveling and telling a story and are not end game.

GW2 would like to have a word. Then again they have designated starter zones that ramp up difficulty as you level.

Luke_Flamesword

There should be anything for vet players - special areas, mode, instance - whatever. Just give us some endgame possibility to do it something challenging in every zone. I agree that making just some debuffs for player is pointless, because you will strugle with some delve boss and then other player will just show up, kill it in two seconds and run in other direction.

Doing trials and dungeons need group and fun of it mostly depends of quality of this group. Solo arenas are only two so far and they also have frustrating one-shot mechanics, but Vateshran is step in good direction with more dungeon layout.

We need some kind of new activity, something more than just veteran instance of old zones. Maybe solo, veteran version of public dungeons with some kind daily quest like Craglorn ones? Or some kind of competition where you have mobs and bossess and you clear whole dungeon with timer rewarded with points (less time and deaths = more points) - something like solo trial with leaderboards and some rewards. They can also give couple different difficulties where with every stage eniemies just have more health and make more damage.

It must be something new and refreshing to bring players and give them something fun in every zone. Something like this would be a nice opportunity to test builds and compare players power more acurate than in trial dummy which is stupid, because it's promote glass cannons. ZOS can even add personal records for every character, so you will want to repeat this solo trials just to have higher scores and seeing your progress.

Ii would be something different than solo arenas, because public dungeons are not mechanics heavy - it's pure dps and survival

Thechuckage

Sarannah wrote: »

No, there shouldn't be a veteran mode for those. Especially not with higher rewards. The why is mostly about newer players being able to find help with their delve/public dungeon/group delves. If there would be a veteran mode, this would be harder to do for them.

But lets be honest... you guys don't want a veteran mode. You just want higher rewards for the same content you are doing now. We can already see this in regular dungeons. Both normals and veterans give the same amount of transmutation crystals, and we can see which mode most 'elite' players choose. They still go normal, as the rewards are the same. So this is not about difficulty.

And besides that, most experienced players run through everything in delves/public dungeons/group delves anyways. Dragging the whole area after them. So the difficulty does not matter to them. Veteran or regular mobs following them, they won't stop.

There is a very distinct difference between being helped and carried. A max lvl character is only going to be helping if they rezz the newbie each time they die. Otherwise the high level character is destroying things and the newbie gets a couple hits in.

Normals and vets giving the same rewards IS the problem. If vet dungeons gave better rewards, then people would run those. Its basically zero risk and 100% reward with the current dungeon setup (excluding monster sets). You cannot divorce the risk/reward component from the equation.

If the mobs were tough enough to slap the player down when attempting to drag the entire area, they would absolutely stop.

kargen27

divnyi wrote: »

RedMuse wrote: »

Funny how "we want more difficult content" discussions are so often very badly disguised, "actually we want better rewards" thread instead.

But that is proportional to the time spent, no?

These threads almost always start saying wouldn't it be fun if...

Then it becomes and give us better rewards.

The reward would be the more engaging combat. If you increase rewards much that creates unwanted and not needed animosity among players that are unable or unwilling to do the content. If they are only a bit better then really what is the point of raising them. I wouldn't mind veteran instances of public dungeons but they shouldn't come with better rewards.

Wolfpaw

Plenty of difficult pve content already, overland is fine.

zharkovian

Yes, just add a switch into options to do 50% damage, that'll work.

kargen27

zharkovian wrote: »

Yes, just add a switch into options to do 50% damage, that'll work.

That would make the fight last longer but wouldn't make it more interesting as there would still be little chance of dying.

Iccotak

kargen27 wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

RedMuse wrote: »

Funny how "we want more difficult content" discussions are so often very badly disguised, "actually we want better rewards" thread instead.

But that is proportional to the time spent, no?

These threads almost always start saying wouldn't it be fun if...

Then it becomes and give us better rewards.

The reward would be the more engaging combat. If you increase rewards much that creates unwanted and not needed animosity among players that are unable or unwilling to do the content. If they are only a bit better then really what is the point of raising them. I wouldn't mind veteran instances of public dungeons but they shouldn't come with better rewards.

Like I said before...

Because the game is designed around incentive. They’re not going to implement a difficulty slider without incentive. Just look at Dungeons & Trials

Sure a small population might play it (like myself) because they’d be more engaged - that said - if ZOS is going to get serious in investing resources in this kind of project then they want to maximize participation numbers.

That's the thing when coming up with new activities, there has to be more than one specific appeal to make it worth developing & playing.
Because not everyone is motivated by only challenge, plenty do it for reward. No one is pretending otherwise.
Just like any activity, give various reasons for players to participate.

That’s how the rest of the game works and I seriously doubt they’d make an exception here.

People are proposing a system that is well implemented into the rest of the game, thus operates much like everything else does.

Reward given is appropriate to the difficulty of that activity. That's how the game works.

---

EDIT

Wolfpaw wrote: »

Plenty of difficult pve content already, overland is fine.

There's Easy Overland - and Hardcore Endgame which is predominantly Group Content, with very few being for solo players. Not much of a middle ground.

People are not just asking for "hard content" they are asking that the questing experience be made fun to play for more than just completely New Players. Overland skill peaks at most of lvl 20 - there are a total of 16 normal questing zones in the base game plus Craglorn & Cyrodil

include the Add-On content and there is a total of 24 normal questing zones, all of which anyone of any skill can do. Sure it is very accessible - but that does not mean it is enjoyable.

Because after you've done 4-5 zones with that level of combat - they start to get stale. If they even get that far, because in my (anecdotal) experience they generally don't. They tend to get bored and the only fun they had were in the dungeons, which constitute a small portion of the content. They would have liked questing more - if it actually engaged them.

So it's not just Vets, but also New players saying this.

Along with that there are several major storylines that hype & build up these "End of the World" Big Bad guys that go down like a sack of potatoes. Which just adds to an ever increasing feeling of questing just being a walking simulator where nothing is ever really a threat. Not Fun.

kargen27

Iccotak wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

RedMuse wrote: »

Funny how "we want more difficult content" discussions are so often very badly disguised, "actually we want better rewards" thread instead.

But that is proportional to the time spent, no?

These threads almost always start saying wouldn't it be fun if...

Then it becomes and give us better rewards.

The reward would be the more engaging combat. If you increase rewards much that creates unwanted and not needed animosity among players that are unable or unwilling to do the content. If they are only a bit better then really what is the point of raising them. I wouldn't mind veteran instances of public dungeons but they shouldn't come with better rewards.

Like I said before...

Because the game is designed around incentive. They’re not going to implement a difficulty slider without incentive. Just look at Dungeons & Trials

Sure a small population might play it (like myself) because they’d be more engaged - that said - if ZOS is going to get serious in investing resources in this kind of project then they want to maximize participation numbers.

That's the thing when coming up with new activities, there has to be more than one specific appeal to make it worth developing & playing.
Because not everyone is motivated by only challenge, plenty do it for reward. No one is pretending otherwise.
Just like any activity, give various reasons for players to participate.

That’s how the rest of the game works and I seriously doubt they’d make an exception here.

People are proposing a system that is well implemented into the rest of the game, thus operates much like everything else does.

Reward given is appropriate to the difficulty of that activity. That's how the game works.

I know what was said before and I think it is a bad idea to add tiers of rewards to content that already exists. These threads most always start as a way to increase the enjoyment of the game and within a post or two the caveat of better rewards gets thrown in.
Giving better rewards based on settings on a slider would be really bad. If two players are fighting one boss and one has his slider set to difficult why should he expect a better reward? Could be that the other player does most of the damage so why should he not get an equal reward.
With a vet instance of public dungeons I could see XP being based on the difficulty of the foes you face but no extra rewards beyond that. ZoS doesn't want to make the rewards so much better that players feel they need to go the vet route even if they wouldn't enjoy it for fear of missing out on rewards. That could lead to ill feelings. Giving a reward that is only a bit better would have those doing the harder content complaining that they are not good enough to justify the jump up in difficulty. And you have the players that would try to tag along in the vet content hoping to piggy back others killing things for the better rewards.
Better to leave the rewards out so they don't become a focus of why we do the content. Instead let the challenge and the fun be the focus.

Iccotak

kargen27 wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

RedMuse wrote: »

Funny how "we want more difficult content" discussions are so often very badly disguised, "actually we want better rewards" thread instead.

But that is proportional to the time spent, no?

These threads almost always start saying wouldn't it be fun if...

Then it becomes and give us better rewards.

The reward would be the more engaging combat. If you increase rewards much that creates unwanted and not needed animosity among players that are unable or unwilling to do the content. If they are only a bit better then really what is the point of raising them. I wouldn't mind veteran instances of public dungeons but they shouldn't come with better rewards.

Like I said before...

Because the game is designed around incentive. They’re not going to implement a difficulty slider without incentive. Just look at Dungeons & Trials

Sure a small population might play it (like myself) because they’d be more engaged - that said - if ZOS is going to get serious in investing resources in this kind of project then they want to maximize participation numbers.

That's the thing when coming up with new activities, there has to be more than one specific appeal to make it worth developing & playing.
Because not everyone is motivated by only challenge, plenty do it for reward. No one is pretending otherwise.
Just like any activity, give various reasons for players to participate.

That’s how the rest of the game works and I seriously doubt they’d make an exception here.

People are proposing a system that is well implemented into the rest of the game, thus operates much like everything else does.

Reward given is appropriate to the difficulty of that activity. That's how the game works.

I know what was said before and I think it is a bad idea to add tiers of rewards to content that already exists. These threads most always start as a way to increase the enjoyment of the game and within a post or two the caveat of better rewards gets thrown in.

Giving better rewards based on settings on a slider would be really bad. If two players are fighting one boss and one has his slider set to difficult why should he expect a better reward? Could be that the other player does most of the damage so why should he not get an equal reward.

With a vet instance of public dungeons I could see XP being based on the difficulty of the foes you face but no extra rewards beyond that. ZoS doesn't want to make the rewards so much better that players feel they need to go the vet route even if they wouldn't enjoy it for fear of missing out on rewards.

That could lead to ill feelings. Giving a reward that is only a bit better would have those doing the harder content complaining that they are not good enough to justify the jump up in difficulty. And you have the players that would try to tag along in the vet content hoping to piggy back others killing things for the better rewards.

Better to leave the rewards out so they don't become a focus of why we do the content. Instead let the challenge and the fun be the focus.

Well first off, you are assuming that two players with different difficulty settings (Normal & Veteran) would be in the same instance. - That would never work. - No wonder you think it is a terrible idea. You are thinking of a different system than what others are thinking of.

They would have to be in separate instances.

If the goal is to make overland and delves engaging & challenging then there is no way they could share the same instance. Not only would there have to be changes to enemy stats but also mechanics as well.

Secondly,

"Better to leave the rewards out so they don't become a focus of why we do the content."

Have you been playing? That is a major focus on why people do content. Is Challenge the sole focus for Dungeons & Trials? Depends on the player. Some do it for challenge, many do it for reward. - Like I said it is about making it appealing to more than just one type of player.

Third, to say that ZOS should not implement any kind of reward system for fear that it won't be perfect doesn't really make a whole lot of sense.

If they didn't put anything out unless it was perfect, or for fear of "what could happen", then we wouldn't have a game in the first place.

kargen27

Iccotak wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

RedMuse wrote: »

Funny how "we want more difficult content" discussions are so often very badly disguised, "actually we want better rewards" thread instead.

But that is proportional to the time spent, no?

These threads almost always start saying wouldn't it be fun if...

Then it becomes and give us better rewards.

The reward would be the more engaging combat. If you increase rewards much that creates unwanted and not needed animosity among players that are unable or unwilling to do the content. If they are only a bit better then really what is the point of raising them. I wouldn't mind veteran instances of public dungeons but they shouldn't come with better rewards.

Like I said before...

Because the game is designed around incentive. They’re not going to implement a difficulty slider without incentive. Just look at Dungeons & Trials

Sure a small population might play it (like myself) because they’d be more engaged - that said - if ZOS is going to get serious in investing resources in this kind of project then they want to maximize participation numbers.

That's the thing when coming up with new activities, there has to be more than one specific appeal to make it worth developing & playing.
Because not everyone is motivated by only challenge, plenty do it for reward. No one is pretending otherwise.
Just like any activity, give various reasons for players to participate.

That’s how the rest of the game works and I seriously doubt they’d make an exception here.

People are proposing a system that is well implemented into the rest of the game, thus operates much like everything else does.

Reward given is appropriate to the difficulty of that activity. That's how the game works.

I know what was said before and I think it is a bad idea to add tiers of rewards to content that already exists. These threads most always start as a way to increase the enjoyment of the game and within a post or two the caveat of better rewards gets thrown in.

Giving better rewards based on settings on a slider would be really bad. If two players are fighting one boss and one has his slider set to difficult why should he expect a better reward? Could be that the other player does most of the damage so why should he not get an equal reward.

With a vet instance of public dungeons I could see XP being based on the difficulty of the foes you face but no extra rewards beyond that. ZoS doesn't want to make the rewards so much better that players feel they need to go the vet route even if they wouldn't enjoy it for fear of missing out on rewards.

That could lead to ill feelings. Giving a reward that is only a bit better would have those doing the harder content complaining that they are not good enough to justify the jump up in difficulty. And you have the players that would try to tag along in the vet content hoping to piggy back others killing things for the better rewards.

Better to leave the rewards out so they don't become a focus of why we do the content. Instead let the challenge and the fun be the focus.

Well first off, you are assuming that two players with different difficulty settings (Normal & Veteran) would be in the same instance. - That would never work. - No wonder you think it is a terrible idea. You are thinking of a different system than what others are thinking of.

They would have to be in separate instances.

If the goal is to make overland and delves engaging & challenging then there is no way they could share the same instance. Not only would there have to be changes to enemy stats but also mechanics as well.

Secondly,

"Better to leave the rewards out so they don't become a focus of why we do the content."

Have you been playing? That is a major focus on why people do content. Is Challenge the sole focus for Dungeons & Trials? Depends on the player. Some do it for challenge, many do it for reward. - Like I said it is about making it appealing to more than just one type of player.

Third, to say that ZOS should not implement any kind of reward system for fear that it won't be perfect doesn't really make a whole lot of sense.

If they didn't put anything out unless it was perfect, or for fear of "what could happen", then we wouldn't have a game in the first place.

I mentioned that a slider would not work because players with different settings on their slider could be on the same boss. If you had different instances for vet and normal why would you need a slider. You mentioned the slider and I offered my opinion on why a slider would not work.

I know exactly what others are thinking. You mentioned the slider and a slider is not what others have talked about so I commented on the slider specifically. I have also expressed my opinions on separate instances in many many threads.

You are misconstruing what I am saying. I am not saying same rewards for different levels of difficulty. I am saying adding different tiers of rewards to existing content would be a bad idea. Especially bad for the base content. I never once suggested ZoS should not implement some kind of reward system. Again I said it would be a bad idea to put one in for content that already exists.
Many players enjoy the base content of the game. Some of those players would be compelled to try a more difficult level if it gave better rewards as they would feel they are missing out. This would lead to them not enjoying the game as much as they do now. That is just basic human behavior. The only way to alleviate the bad feelings would be to make the rewards only slightly better to such a level there really is no difference. For instance a 2.5% chance that a piece of armor will drop purple instead of blue. If they do that though players will complain that doing vet isn't worth the smaller increase in rewards. So if better rewards are included the rewards will become the focus and one group of players or another will be upset. If rewards stay the same players that want a better fight get it and players that just want to do the content easy can do that without feeling they are missing something. The fun of the experience is the focus.

If they did give us a vet instance for delves, public dungeons and other content players would join just for the extra challenge. You can read thread after thread of people saying exactly that. Those thread quickly have other players say yeah but with better rewards. So it becomes about the rewards and not the experience.

Any new content outside of overland I am fine with having two tiers of difficulty and the harder one having better rewards.

Another problem with separate instances in the zones themselves is the possibility of zones appearing abandoned and empty. The game needs to appear to be well populated with players for it to remain appealing as an MMO.

Ergele

just give veteran overlandi, no need to beat around the bush

Iccotak

kargen27 wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

RedMuse wrote: »

Funny how "we want more difficult content" discussions are so often very badly disguised, "actually we want better rewards" thread instead.

But that is proportional to the time spent, no?

These threads almost always start saying wouldn't it be fun if...

Then it becomes and give us better rewards.

The reward would be the more engaging combat. If you increase rewards much that creates unwanted and not needed animosity among players that are unable or unwilling to do the content. If they are only a bit better then really what is the point of raising them. I wouldn't mind veteran instances of public dungeons but they shouldn't come with better rewards.

Like I said before...

Because the game is designed around incentive. They’re not going to implement a difficulty slider without incentive. Just look at Dungeons & Trials

Sure a small population might play it (like myself) because they’d be more engaged - that said - if ZOS is going to get serious in investing resources in this kind of project then they want to maximize participation numbers.

That's the thing when coming up with new activities, there has to be more than one specific appeal to make it worth developing & playing.
Because not everyone is motivated by only challenge, plenty do it for reward. No one is pretending otherwise.
Just like any activity, give various reasons for players to participate.

That’s how the rest of the game works and I seriously doubt they’d make an exception here.

People are proposing a system that is well implemented into the rest of the game, thus operates much like everything else does.

Reward given is appropriate to the difficulty of that activity. That's how the game works.

I know what was said before and I think it is a bad idea to add tiers of rewards to content that already exists. These threads most always start as a way to increase the enjoyment of the game and within a post or two the caveat of better rewards gets thrown in.

Giving better rewards based on settings on a slider would be really bad. If two players are fighting one boss and one has his slider set to difficult why should he expect a better reward? Could be that the other player does most of the damage so why should he not get an equal reward.

With a vet instance of public dungeons I could see XP being based on the difficulty of the foes you face but no extra rewards beyond that. ZoS doesn't want to make the rewards so much better that players feel they need to go the vet route even if they wouldn't enjoy it for fear of missing out on rewards.

That could lead to ill feelings. Giving a reward that is only a bit better would have those doing the harder content complaining that they are not good enough to justify the jump up in difficulty. And you have the players that would try to tag along in the vet content hoping to piggy back others killing things for the better rewards.

Better to leave the rewards out so they don't become a focus of why we do the content. Instead let the challenge and the fun be the focus.

Well first off, you are assuming that two players with different difficulty settings (Normal & Veteran) would be in the same instance. - That would never work. - No wonder you think it is a terrible idea. You are thinking of a different system than what others are thinking of.

They would have to be in separate instances.

If the goal is to make overland and delves engaging & challenging then there is no way they could share the same instance. Not only would there have to be changes to enemy stats but also mechanics as well.

Secondly,

"Better to leave the rewards out so they don't become a focus of why we do the content."

Have you been playing? That is a major focus on why people do content. Is Challenge the sole focus for Dungeons & Trials? Depends on the player. Some do it for challenge, many do it for reward. - Like I said it is about making it appealing to more than just one type of player.

Third, to say that ZOS should not implement any kind of reward system for fear that it won't be perfect doesn't really make a whole lot of sense.

If they didn't put anything out unless it was perfect, or for fear of "what could happen", then we wouldn't have a game in the first place.

I mentioned that a slider would not work because players with different settings on their slider could be on the same boss. If you had different instances for vet and normal why would you need a slider. You mentioned the slider and I offered my opinion on why a slider would not work.

I know exactly what others are thinking. You mentioned the slider and a slider is not what others have talked about so I commented on the slider specifically. I have also expressed my opinions on separate instances in many many threads.

So because others said "difficulty slider" you assumed that you would still be in the same instance? Are you in the same instance of dungeons if you pick normal or veteran? No, same thing applies here.

If I am playing on veteran and Bob is playing on normal we would be fighting the same boss - but in separate instances. We would not be sharing a space and not even playing together. I would in fact be playing with Will who also picked the "veteran" difficulty setting.

Very, very few people suggested sharing the same instance with different difficulty settings because most understand that it would not work. Ever.

You are misconstruing what I am saying. I am not saying same rewards for different levels of difficulty. I am saying adding different tiers of rewards to existing content would be a bad idea. Especially bad for the base content. I never once suggested ZoS should not implement some kind of reward system. Again I said it would be a bad idea to put one in for content that already exists.

They already did that with dungeons when they were given Normal & Veteran difficulties

back in the old day the Dungeons with names like I & II - like Ash City were divided into normal & vet by their number.

So Ash City I was Normal while Ash City II was Vet. But now all dungeons have a Normal & Vet setting, and with appropriate rewards for both.

If ZOS were to create an overland difficulty setting then they would have to apply it to all normal questing zones including the base game - not just the latest zone.

if by different tiers you mean blue vs purple, then that is a simple solution - don't make all drops purple but there would be a greater chance that purple gear would drop.

add unique cosmetics for completing certain Vet Overland tasks & achievements. That would actually give people a reason to go back to older content, & try something new!

Many players enjoy the base content of the game.

And many don't because they find it boring overall. Both Vet & New.

The Base Game encompasses the majority of the content - yeah it should absolutely have a veteran mode. It would actually make it quite useless as a feature if it only applied to one new zone.

There is no system that the devs introduced that is isolated to only the new zone.

Some of those players would be compelled to try a more difficult level if it gave better rewards as they would feel they are missing out.

So they would be incentivized to try it out? Ok. it is still a choice.
There is plenty of content with incentives that people choose not to play.

This would lead to them not enjoying the game as much as they do now.

Well that is certainly not true for everyone.

That is just basic human behavior.

What is basic human behavior is enjoying overcoming challenge and resistance.
What is basic human behavior is that players are engaged when they actually have to think about what they are doing. If they are not thinking then they are going to get bored very quickly.

The only way to alleviate the bad feelings would be to make the rewards only slightly better to such a level there really is no difference.

OR the player is now motivated and incentivized to get better at the game to participate in harder difficulties & get better rewards. That is the cycle that the game uses.

If rewards stay the same players that want a better fight get it and players that just want to do the content easy can do that without feeling they are missing something. The fun of the experience is the focus.

Reward & Gameplay go hand-in-hand. You cannot have one without the other. Earning a reward is part of the experience.

You know this because otherwise you would not have talked about how those playing on easier difficulties would not feel like "they are missing out".

If they did give us a vet instance for delves, public dungeons and other content players would join just for the extra challenge.

I'm sorry that is very naive. You cannot make an activity that appeals ONLY to one specific niche. It has to have more than one reason for playing. That's how all activities are designed. There are plenty of us who love challenge and there are plenty that love getting that reward - you have to appeal to both. ZOS knows this because that is how they designed the game.

Another problem with separate instances in the zones themselves is the possibility of zones appearing abandoned and empty. The game needs to appear to be well populated with players for it to remain appealing as an MMO.

1. Where is this idea that everyone wants high-end players around? Or that these endgame players want to play the boringly easy content of Overland? - A good portion of Vet players find the majority of it boring and will play only if we have to. Which means not often. Other players certainly do not care for an OP player going in a killing everything before others have a chance to play.

Many players would like to enjoy the questing & story content - but the gameplay is just not engaging and your victories are practically handed to you on a silver platter. That is Not fun.
Forcing us to share the instance is not going to make us play with you more often.

2. The populace is not miniscule. This is not an indie game, it is a successful MMORPG.
Also zones can often feel empty largely because the developers don’t incentivize players to go there often.

If the developers regularly did events every month or every two weeks to encourage players to participate in other areas of the game like previous chapters then I think that would largely solve Zones feeling empty.

I think it is also worth considering that a reason many players don’t go to the zones or do the story is because they don’t find them fun at all. Again - Forcing us to share the instance is not going to make us play with you more often.

I mean heck WoW has the playerbase in separate servers and that game is doing very well - I am not saying we should just use separate servers - my point being that one separate harder instance is certainly not going to kill the mmo appeal.

kargen27

"So because others said "difficulty slider" you assumed that you would still be in the same instance? Are you in the same instance of dungeons if you pick normal or veteran? No, same thing applies here."

One more time. If you are wanting different instances no slider is needed. Just pick vet or normal.

The absolute only reason to have a slider is to allow players to change difficulties for themselves in the same instance others might choose not to.

"I'm sorry that is very naive."

Except many many players have actually said they would play in a more difficult area even if the rewards for doing so were no better. Not just one or two players.

And you are still ignoring the problems better rewards would create.

"I mean heck WoW has the playerbase in separate servers and that game is doing very well"

WoW was designed with smaller servers in mind. ESO was not so the two can not be honestly compared.

" Where is this idea that everyone wants high-end players around? Or that these endgame players want to play the boringly easy content of Overland? - A good portion of Vet players find the majority of it boring and will play only if we have to. Which means not often. Other players certainly do not care for an OP player going in a killing everything before others have a chance to play."

I don't know. I didn't mention it. I mentioned the separate instances creating the feeling of an empty zone only as a possible problem. As only ZoS knows the number of players that visit these zones at various times and days of the week we can only speculate on if it would be a problem or not. I said it was a possible problem.

And as I have said in this thread and many like it for months if not years. I wouldn't mind if they gave us an option for more difficult content. I would take full advantage of the more difficult levels. I still believe it would be a mistake to give better rewards in content that already exists. Most of what you have argued is pointing to doing the hard stuff for fun and a challenge. So why bring extra rewards and the problems they could cause into it when as you said "Many players would like to enjoy the questing & story content - but the gameplay is just not engaging and your victories are practically handed to you on a silver platter. That is Not fun."

So let players have the fun of harder content. Don't make those who do not want the harder content feel compelled to do it anyway through increased rewards. We all agree the game should be fun for everybody.

Iccotak

Except many many players have actually said they would play in a more difficult area even if the rewards for doing so were no better. Not just one or two players.

Yeah and I would too but I am a niche - and I consider it naive to say that ZOS would make an activity for a specific niche and no reward for either the niche or the average curious player (that goes against their design of the whole game; added difficulty = added reward)

So why bring extra rewards and the problems they could cause

The problems you listed I don't consider problems because that is not how I see things happening. They are non-existent to insignificant "issues".

I do not see people being discouraged by rewards for higher difficulty tiers but rather encouraged, because that is how people work.
You yourself said how gaining rewards is part of the fun and yet you say it should not matter for the sake of focusing on fun - you cannot eat your cake and have it too.

The absolute only reason to have a slider is to allow players to change difficulties for themselves in the same instance others might choose not to.

That is what you assumed - and a rather careless assumption at that - what you did not consider, or ask, was if each setting on that slider transferred the player to a separate instance.

I still believe it would be a mistake to give better rewards in content that already exists.

and I am saying I do not see the problem - in fact it would add value to the overall game and not just specifically new content.

Which is ideal - it is ideal that a new feature adds value to the whole game and not just the new content.

Don't make those who do not want the harder content feel compelled to do it anyway through increased rewards

Do you feel "compelled" to do dungeons? Do people feel compelled for that content - or do they feel incentivized to participate?
Do you feel compelled or incentivized to use antiquities?

Making the content engaging is one important ingredient - incentive is the other important ingredient. ZOS understands this which is why they apply it to all content. Repeatable content especially. They make sure it has engaging gameplay and it actually serves a purpose to the player.

The game is on a loot-loop. Fun & Useful. To make an activity that does not serve that makes no sense. Regardless if that is applied to old content. (Which antiquities was - all new rewards applied to older zones)

I disagree with your reasons because I find them both inaccurate and contradictory.

kargen27

I have never said the rewards are part of the fun. If something I typed suggests that then I was not being clear.

"Do you feel "compelled" to do dungeons? Do people feel compelled for that content - or do they feel incentivized to participate?
Do you feel compelled or incentivized to use antiquities?"

Human nature strongly suggests the majority that are in the fence about making the jump would feel compelled and not incentivized. "Keeping up with the Joneses" is a thing for a reason. Good example of this is the number of players that towards the end of the last event were completely over the crafting on every player they have but made sure not to miss a night because of the boxes.

"Which antiquities was - all new rewards applied to older zones"

All players that participated were able to get the same rewards. There was no tier system put in place.

Antiquities worked the way they do to get player to go back to zones they might not have visited for a while. An MMO needs players to repeat content to survive. Adding a vet instance to more content (especially delves and group dungeons) would help to bring some players back to those zones. Extra rewards wouldn't be needed to bring them back. The experience would be enough. Why alienate a group of people with extra rewards when they are not needed. For the most part the rewards for the players wanting to do the vet content aren't going to be what draws them there whether they be better rewards or not.

There was a comment earlier about even now players want harder content. That is true but not really all that relevant to this conversation. If the content is at a level that new players can do it the difficulty will not be anywhere near high enough to make the more experiences players happy.

"Making the content engaging is one important ingredient - incentive is the other important ingredient. ZOS understands this which is why they apply it to all content."

Agreed to a point. Adding tiers to content that has existed since the beginning isn't a good idea. New content is a different matter and you are failing to see the distinction. People are still bitter about the change to weapons drops in Maelstrom arena. Sure that goes the other direction but same principle applies. People that want the harder content will play it without the better rewards. They will. With better rewards you stand a chance of alienating a certain portion of the player population. Why take that chance when people who want harder content are going to play it anyway even without the awards.

Iccotak

I have never said the rewards are part of the fun. If something I typed suggests that then I was not being clear.

You said that players who don't participate in the vet difficulty will feel that they missed out on the experience because they got a lesser reward compared to those who played the harder difficulty. Therefore you consider earning a reward part of the gameplay experience, and therefore part of the fun.

People are still bitter about the change to weapons drops in Maelstrom arena. Sure that goes the other direction but same principle applies.

No, it doesn't....It is because it went the other direction that it is controversial. That is definitely not the same principle.

All players that participated were able to get the same rewards.

And same can be said for those who play the veteran instance. Nothing is preventing them from playing that content. It is their choice. If their character is not strong enough yet - then now they will have added incentive to get better.

Good example of this is the number of players that towards the end of the last event were completely over the crafting on every player they have but made sure not to miss a night because of the boxes.

This is my point exactly. ZOS designs content to maximize participation. They do not rely solely on fun gameplay - they give an added incentive for players to participate. If they were ever to implement difficulty setting for Overland/Delves you can bet your bottom dollar that they would implement an incentive system across the board.

As like antiquities it would encourage people to player more than just the new content - but all over the game.

If the content is at a level that new players can do it the difficulty will not be anywhere near high enough to make the more experiences players happy.

No one is asking for it to be as hard as a trial. They are asking that it not be mind-numbingly boring. They are asking to be engaged. This "it will never be challenging enough to satisfy" is frankly ridiculous because there is obviously a better difficulty than "Starter Island" which is where basically everything is at.
It is easy enough for a complete novice of video games to beat. There is clearly a better level of difficulty than that.

because trust me when I say that the current overland difficulty is what is truly alienating people. New & Vet alike.

People that want the harder content will play it without the better rewards.

Some will, sure, but if ZOS wants to maximize participants. (which they would) They will do what they always have done and have added incentive & reward to encourage people to play. This is how they do it.

Because the game is designed around incentive. Everything the game offers is designed around a reward system. Every. Single. Thing.

Extra rewards wouldn't be needed to bring them back.

It is not just about bring them back. It is also about getting new people interested. Like I said before - You cannot make an activity that satiates one specific desire, the activity has to have multiple reasons to play again and again and again.

ZOS has to do that in order to justify investing & developing the feature. Because not everyone is motivated by only challenge, plenty do it for reward. No one is pretending otherwise.

Adding tiers to content that has existed since the beginning isn't a good idea. New content is a different matter and you are failing to see the distinction.

What I am telling you is that this "distinction" is irrelevant, and is arbitrary, because the interest that it would raise for the average player is likely far greater than the supposed alienation.

If the features added rewards only applied to the new content that it came with, then you would see a mass concentration in the new content, and not very many participating in the vet content in the rest of the game.

When ZOS adds a feature - a key design point is that it adds value to the whole game and not just the DLC. If it doesn't do that then it is a failed feature.

Amottica

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

No problem with harder content....

...But...

I would absolutely HATE to have to farm overland gear again to add it to collections, just because it will be perfected, with no auto-upgrade.

I think the bigger question is, do we really think the developers want to double the number of sets they need to balance? That is what is at the end of this road since they would likely realize that with this change there would not no stopping until; it was uniform across the board. I see there are perfected weapons with a certain level of content and my guess is that it's probably a good stopping point for game management.

Just my thoughts on it. I already find gearing in ESO crazy with all the choices. I cannot imagine the effort to manage all of that gear for balancing.