Delves, Public dungeons and group delves NEED a "veteran" mode

oddbasket

Iccotak wrote: »

You say will never understand the "Why" when people are telling you why?

Keep in mind we get new zones every year and many of us do that content with our mains, and much of that content is questing.

No, I still don't. People say they want vet overland, but they don't want it to be Dark Souls, VMA level, yet they don't realise anything less isn't posing enough of a challenge for anyone. Hence, I said it seems to me those asking for challenge, don't seem to actually want any.

There is no realistic difficulty in between that is going to satisfy the range of vet players' skill level. You want it, but you can't define it, even if you can, that is a difficulty that may suit just you, but if you're accommodating, then the difficulty is going to yet still be too easy for you.

It is much easier to ask for it, and then let ZOS try to satisfy the wide range of players which puts them in a difficult position to have it readily backfire on them. Vet overland is a fantastical ideal which doesn't work out realistically. Challenge can be had, but it doesn't necessarily have to be overland. The dungeons challenge mode could be one, dungeons already have a degree of difficulty designed into them, and it's repeatable content, probably easier to rebalance for solo challenge than public dungeons and better use of resources on a targeted implementation than a progressive game wide rebalance with questionable reception.

spartaxoxo

Thechuckage wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

Thechuckage wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

Daraklus wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

If you think the game is like a job you are not playing right.

You're missing the point.

If people are given the option of a harder and easier task for the same reward, the average person will pick the easier task because why do something harder if you're gonna get the same as doing an easier thing?

There will be people doing the harder task purely out of a sense of pride, but everyone else will likely take the easier task.

And you know, that's not exactly a good thing, because it doesn't encourage people to improve upon themselves. It is why I would rather see Overland to be just a bit harder baseline than be Beginner-level easy for the entirety of the 70% of the game.

I am not missing the point. People start these threads saying it would be more fun if the content were more of a challenge. More fun would be the reward. This suggestion is about making the game more entertaining and shouldn't be about getting a better drop.

It can be both. More challenge and greater rewards. Not to mention that is inline with the current reward system. Tougher content, better rewards.
Personally don't think it should be anything crazy or unable to get without doing vet OW. IE more gold, purples instead of blues, more mats as examples.

I agree it can be both but with new content only. I still think it would be a bad idea to go back and separate base overland into normal and vet with vet dropping additional rewards. We then get into the problem of how much better. If the rewards are quite a bit better players will complain that they are missing out. If the rewards are only slightly better then players will complain there isn't enough difference in rewards to make doing the harder content worth it. Best to just leave the rewards the same for both and let players choose the level of difficulty they want for the fun of it.

The major rewards (debatable) for dungeons right now are transmute stones. Both normal and vet offer up the same reward. Where are the majority of the people?

Those aren't the people who want a challenge. They want to do stuff quickly. That far less people want to do vet when the rewards are the same shows that the interest in the increased difficulty for purely it's own sake for simple content is low. People want them rewards.

Iccotak

oddbasket wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

You say will never understand the "Why" when people are telling you why?

Keep in mind we get new zones every year and many of us do that content with our mains, and much of that content is questing.

No, I still don't. People say they want vet overland, but they don't want it to be Dark Souls, VMA level, yet they don't realise anything less isn't posing enough of a challenge for anyone. Hence, I said it seems to me those asking for challenge, don't seem to actually want any.

There is no realistic difficulty in between that is going to satisfy the range of vet players' skill level. You want it, but you can't define it, even if you can, that is a difficulty that may suit just you, but if you're accommodating, then the difficulty is going to yet still be too easy for you.

It is much easier to ask for it, and then let ZOS try to satisfy the wide range of players which puts them in a difficult position to have it readily backfire on them. Vet overland is a fantastical ideal which doesn't work out realistically. Challenge can be had, but it doesn't necessarily have to be overland.

The dungeons challenge mode could be one, dungeons already have a degree of difficulty designed into them, and it's repeatable content, probably easier to rebalance for solo challenge than public dungeons and better use of resources on a targeted implementation than a progressive game wide rebalance with questionable reception.

1. The problem is not the dungeons or trials - it is the general questing experience in Overland. This is not just about Challenge - It is about making story & questing content actually enjoyable and engaging. I think people have been very clear on that.

2. So unless it is on par with the Very Top Vet HM level difficulty - There is no reasonable raise in level of difficulty that would satisfy people asking for a Vet Overland? That is your position? Well I very much disagree with that.

Take dungeons for example; just because I have gotten better at dungeon mechanics does that mean I am less engaged to a point of being bored - only if I am burnt out, which is NOT the problem. I can still be engaged in dungeons because they actually make me think about what I am doing.

So when discussing engagement & difficulty for overland I would like mobs and more importantly the Quest Bosses to actually use mechanics that make me think about what I am doing. When I am thinking I am engaged, if I am engaged then I am having fun. This also vastly improves the story experience.

There is clearly a better baseline than one that is for people have never played a video game before. Do I know exactly what that vet baseline is? No but I am certain that the current baseline is not fun at all for many people.

maybe instead of telling people what you think they desire - you could ask them what they want and figure out a good compromise for what a Vet Overland difficulty baseline would look like.

edited for spelling & grammar.

Anonx31st

Reivax wrote: »

Fight naked with nothing but an iron dagger

oddbasket

Iccotak wrote: »

1. The problem is not the dungeons or trials - it is the general questing experience in Overland. This is not just about Challenge - It is about making story & questing content actually enjoyable and engaging. I think people have been very clear on that.

That's the issue I have when I say vet overland is an unrealistic idea, that players so strongly believe it's the fix to suddenly finding story mode enjoyable or engaging when by itself it isn't to them. I believe a lot of these players clear them for the completion and skill points but feel like they want to be engaged instead of drowning away their time to make their time spent seem more worthwhile. But bottomline bringing vet mode to them doesn't change the main aspect which these players don't like about them, that is spending more time clicking dialogue and running around the map before you spend just 1 minute fighting a mini boss. Sure, making the boss fight more epic is an improvement and definitely less anti-climatic, but it's a small part of the time spent. Making story mode interesting doesn't have to be about difficulty, and it's much harder, sometimes the scope of the quests are too small and uninteresting, sometimes the ending after beating an interesting boss is a let down...

Like the rest of this post, other posts don't dwell on the concrete of how to cater this vet overland difficulty for the players because even those who want it may not want it for the same reasons, nor the what of tangible benefits to the content it is tied to ie. story mode or questing. Your anecdotes in your own words read like you're doing something you find not fun, and would like a different aspect of the game, vet difficulty from dungeons and boss mechanics to compensate for doing something you don't enjoy. That is a personal desire and no pros provided for ZOS to implement this.

hafgood

Please can someone define exactly.how difficult vet overland should be? I hear lots about wanting a harder overland but no one seems able to come up with a definition of how difficult it should be.

Obviously it has to be challenging but it needs to be completable by the majority of those that want it. So, by making it completable by the majority that clamour for it it will still be too easy and boring for some after all they are amazing players who can best the hardest world bosses with their hands tied behind their backs.

So vet overland which has engaged a small percentage of the player base is still not sufficient for some. So an ubervet overland is also needed for the "elite" as they need it be engaged with the world.

So we go from one overland to 3, amd even then there will be those wanting it to be harder and harder.

Now how do you get the majority to move from normal to vet to ubervet? You have to add achievements, you have to add better rewards, maybe perfected versions of overland sets. After all of there is no incentive to do it why would the player base move to it? Speaking for myself I like achievements so they would incentivise me, maybe, to repeat content I've already done at a harder level. I could do it, however I have no interest in it unless the rewards are sufficient to make the extra time I spend killing things worthwhile.

As we are talking separate instances I'm assuming you choose when you log on whether you are going vet, ubervet or normal? So to swap between instances you would need to log out and back in? What if you then want to group with a friend who is at a different setting? It works at the moment as they can travel to you to get into the same instance, but if they are normal and you are uber I assume one will have to sign out to then log into the same difficulty as the other?

Instead of just shouting we want a harder overland all the time start thinking of how it would work. Start thinking of how it's going to be paid for (remember about 300 bosses in base game alone, so 300 mechs needing updating for vet and again for ubervet). Plus all the mobs need updating and all the loot tables. Where is the money coming from to pay for it?

In other words - let's see your proposal and a business plan instead of just saying I want it.

Sanguinor2

hafgood wrote: »

In other words - let's see your proposal and a business plan instead of just saying I want it.

Its not our job to make a business plan or detailed proposal for it. We dont have the numbers, data and tools for it either. We are the customers not the game designers.
[snip]

[edited for baiting]

ZOS_Lunar

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