Delves, Public dungeons and group delves NEED a "veteran" mode

Fhritz

Hi everyone.

Today I want to talk about the difficulty of the "solo" content. This content is actually too easy for someone who know some base mechanic of the game. While delves and public dungeons are actually good and enjoyable, the difficulty make them look like a simple walk around some beautiful places rather than actually dangerous places.

That's why these delves need an optional "veteran" mode, like every group instance in the game. My best memory of the game was vMA. I cried tears and blood, but I finally passed it. It was hard, but that's why this arena is actually "fun" and quite enjoyable. vVH is cool too, even if it's easier. I didn't even do it for the gear (I got the vMA perfected bow first time on my stam character tho) but actually because I wanted a solo "challenging content". The level of craglorn delves are what I exept about a "veteran difficulty" : If every "veteran" delves were as difficult as Shada's tear, I think every delves in the gain may gain in interest for vet player, because for now this content is literally, i think, "wasted"

What are your thoughts ? Feel free to debate !

TwinLamps

would be nice.
As reward, boss would drop purple quality gear.
Also, more XP.

oddbasket

Dang, my first vma clear didn't even get me a perfected anything (or the dozens after that). Still feel shortchanged.

hands0medevil

Awesome idea but been discussed many times and probably led us to CP nerf. Because what is the point in making solo content more difficult when we can nerf op players. It's faster, more simple and will satisfy current core client... I mean player base.

hafgood

No ta. For all the reasons given in every other thread about this topic.

And definitely not for increased rewards.

I would love to see a veteran overland server though, I would love to have the option to transfer accounts from the existing server to the veteran server. You can have the increased rewards you crave, you can have bosses so hard it takes an hour to kill them, you can have the epic content you want.

[snip]

[edited for baiting]

divnyi

hands0medevil wrote: »

Awesome idea but been discussed many times and probably led us to CP nerf. Because what is the point in making solo content more difficult when we can nerf op players.

OP players will still do overland content with closed eyes. I can do pretty much any world boss solo on any of my strong PvP toons.

spartaxoxo

I think they should just put in an enfeeblement potion or something.

hands0medevil

divnyi wrote: »

hands0medevil wrote: »

Awesome idea but been discussed many times and probably led us to CP nerf. Because what is the point in making solo content more difficult when we can nerf op players.

OP players will still do overland content with closed eyes. I can do pretty much any world boss solo on any of my strong PvP toons.

I'm glad

Fhritz

hafgood wrote: »

No ta. For all the reasons given in every other thread about this topic.

And definitely not for increased rewards.

I would love to see a veteran overland server though, I would love to have the option to transfer accounts from the existing server to the veteran server. You can have the increased rewards you crave, you can have bosses so hard it takes an hour to kill them, you can have the epic content you want.

[snip]

Wait, I never talk about increased reward, neither Full overland server. I'm just saying that delve shoud have a "veteran" instance IN OPTION, like any dungeons, trial or arena. Sure, top tier player will still OS everything (as @divnyi said very well), but average player with like 300-600 cp will be able to have, if they want, an experience at their level instead of a point-and-click like. Sure, piece should drop in purple or something, but like dungeons if you want to farm stuff...just do the normal one.

Maybe adding an achievement or something can be a cool reward , but for now this content is too easy to have any interest unless you want to do some quest or, for public dungeon, you want skil point.

VaranisArano

hands0medevil wrote: »

Awesome idea but been discussed many times and probably led us to CP nerf. Because what is the point in making solo content more difficult when we can nerf op players. It's faster, more simple and will satisfy current core client... I mean player base.

I disagree that it led to the CP nerf. Overland content is designed for brand new players with no CP. There's no logical way that the Devs thought that the CP nerf would do anything to make overland content harder for the players complaining about that. Overland content is designed for players with zero CP.

Nerfing players who had CP and optimal builds is going to effect exactly the Content where CP matters: Vet PVE group content, leaderboards, and CP PVP. I'm sure it's a coincidence that this aligns with ZOS' CP 2.0 goal of lowering the ceiling a total of 15-20%.

So please, let's not blame players asking for a Overland to get additional challenging modes for a CP nerf that won't effect Overland difficulty at all. To say otherwise is to suggest that the Devs can't properly distinguish between the various types of game content. I disagree; the Devs seem to have targeted exactly what they said they intended to.

bmnoble

So long as its optional but no to extra rewards maybe purple set drops if it truly ends up being comparable to the other vet difficulty content in the game at most.

My question is making these areas harder going to make them any more fun?

As it is when ever I get a delve daily for instance, I just jog past the mobs, let them aggro and follow me till I reach what ever quest objective I have been given kill any that follow me most will lose aggro and go back to their positions rinse repeat till I have done the quest and am ready to port out to one of my houses or guild games rather than going back through the delve.

Don't even have to cast any healing spells I just slot that star that adds health regen based on the amount of ultimate you have, takes being completely surrounded and doing nothing for the mobs to be able to kill me, true I could do the same in the past wearing plenty of heavy armour sets but I am running around with light armour on.

I would personally prefer something like a hard mode scroll at the bosses, I just don't find that making the trash mobs stronger will in anyway make me feel like fighting them, I would likely do the same as I currently do.

Not to mention the stage 4 vamps who could even more easily cheese the trash mobs by running past them all in stealth.

orion_1981usub17_ESO

Oh look, this thread again.

Once again you can not have two level of difficulties on the public server at the same time and place. Therefore all delves, public dungeons would have to be instanced to you... negating the concept of public domain of overland.

VaranisArano

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

Oh look, this thread again.

Once again you can not have two level of difficulties on the public server at the same time and place. Therefore all delves, public dungeons would have to be instanced to you... negating the concept of public domain of overland.

Or you just have a Vet instance, where everyone who wants the vet difficulty goes. It would still be a public overland, somewhat akin to when Craglorn was a Vet 11 adventure zone.

The problem, of course, is that Craglorn was not exactly successful as a content model for various reasons. And so it's doubtful that ZOS is looking to repeat that model anytime soon.

Kiralyn2000

Ok, now how "Veteran" do you make the new versions?

Hard enough that the you need to be, say, able to run regular vet dungeons? At which point the Pro Players continue to complain that PvE is boring easy, no threat, etc.

Or Hard enough that it 'challenges' the top, say, 5%. At which point the 50%-95% yell "no, that's not what we meant! Too much!"


(i.e, one major issue is that "good" players - who say that overland/delves/etc are boring - covers a very wide range of capability.
The second issue is that no matter how 'hard' you make something, there will still be some fraction of Ub3r D00ds who decry it as Too Easy.)

VaranisArano

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Ok, now how "Veteran" do you make the new versions?

Hard enough that the you need to be, say, able to run regular vet dungeons? At which point the Pro Players continue to complain that PvE is boring easy, no threat, etc.

Or Hard enough that it 'challenges' the top, say, 5%. At which point the 50%-95% yell "no, that's not what we meant! Too much!"


(i.e, one major issue is that "good" players - who say that overland/delves/etc are boring - covers a very wide range of capability.
The second issue is that no matter how 'hard' you make something, there will still be some fraction of Ub3r D00ds who decry it as Too Easy.)

Craglorn is a pretty good indicator of what ZOS already provides in terms of harder difficulty with their group-recommended instances. That has the benefit of matching to something we already have and can judge the balancing by.

I don't think we need to make this super complicated just to shut the idea down.

RedMuse

TwinLamps wrote: »

would be nice.
As reward, boss would drop purple quality gear.
Also, more XP.

Funny how "we want more difficult content" discussions are so often very badly disguised, "actually we want better rewards" thread instead.

divnyi

RedMuse wrote: »

Funny how "we want more difficult content" discussions are so often very badly disguised, "actually we want better rewards" thread instead.

But that is proportional to the time spent, no?

Iccotak

hands0medevil wrote: »

Awesome idea but been discussed many times and probably led us to CP nerf. Because what is the point in making solo content more difficult when we can nerf op players. It's faster, more simple and will satisfy current core client... I mean player base.

CP has no affect on Overland - You don't need CP for Overland content, Cp is for PvP & Endgame

Iccotak

RedMuse wrote: »

TwinLamps wrote: »

would be nice.
As reward, boss would drop purple quality gear.
Also, more XP.

Funny how "we want more difficult content" discussions are so often very badly disguised, "actually we want better rewards" thread instead.

Because the game is designed around incentive. They’re not going to implement a difficulty slider without incentive. Just look at Dungeons & Trials

Sure a small population might play it (like myself) because they’d be more engaged - that said - if ZOS is going to get serious in investing resources in this kind of project then they want to maximize participation numbers.

That's the thing when coming up with new activities, there has to be more than one specific appeal to make it worth developing.
Because not everyone is motivated by only challenge, plenty do it for reward. No one is pretending otherwise.
Just like any activity, give various reasons for players to participate.

That’s how the rest of the game works and I seriously doubt they’d make an exception here.

There is no "Disguised intent" - people are proposing a system that is well implemented into the rest of the game, thus operates much like everything else does.

Reward given is appropriate to the difficulty of that activity. That's how the game works.

Iccotak

VaranisArano wrote: »

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

Oh look, this thread again.

Once again you can not have two level of difficulties on the public server at the same time and place. Therefore all delves, public dungeons would have to be instanced to you... negating the concept of public domain of overland.

Or you just have a Vet instance, where everyone who wants the vet difficulty goes. It would still be a public overland, somewhat akin to when Craglorn was a Vet 11 adventure zone.

The problem, of course, is that Craglorn was not exactly successful as a content model for various reasons. And so it's doubtful that ZOS is looking to repeat that model anytime soon.

I think ZOS can make a more engaging zone without redoing Craglorn

phileunderx2

Vet base game dungeon solo.. Challenging delve.

Agenericname

phileunderx2 wrote: »

Vet base game dungeon solo.. Challenging delve.

Exactly. Seems like a successful model that should be extended to other parts of the game.

joerginger

No, this would be completely pointless.

Iccotak

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

Oh look, this thread again.

Once again you can not have two level of difficulties on the public server at the same time and place. Therefore all delves, public dungeons would have to be instanced to you... negating the concept of public domain of overland.

Overland and delves are already sharded - you think everyone on NA server in Western Skyrim Zone are all sharing the same instance?

It does not work that way.

orion_1981usub17_ESO

Shards are not instances. You won't be able to control who is in your shard aka public. If an area is public then it's mobs must be baseline. Sorry but we've been over this dozens of times. It's silly then, it's silly today and it will be silly tomorrow too.

Lnin0

Why not just offer players a difficulty slider for overland content. Increasing the difficulty increases loot quality. Should not be too hard considering they already scale the player to the world.

warsteheineub17_ESO

Nah, delves and public dungeons are basically trash mobs one after the other.
And bosses, with the exception of some public dungeon ones, are not much more than than a beefy add.

So unless they implement actual mechanics on these intances it will boil down to more hp on enemies and perhaps some one shots from their heavy attacks. Same boring stuff that takes longer to kill. Meh

Iccotak

Lnin0 wrote: »

Why not just offer players a difficulty slider for overland content. Increasing the difficulty increases loot quality. Should not be too hard considering they already scale the player to the world.

What a novel concept - considering ZOS talk about making ESO more like single player TES games, I think this would be something worth adding

warsteheineub17_ESO wrote: »

Nah, delves and public dungeons are basically trash mobs one after the other.
And bosses, with the exception of some public dungeon ones, are not much more than than a beefy add.

So unless they implement actual mechanics on these intances it will boil down to more hp on enemies and perhaps some one shots from their heavy attacks. Same boring stuff that takes longer to kill. Meh

This is true - a Veteran instance would need an increase in mechanics to actually make trash mobs interesting - same goes for quest bosses

Indigogo

All you'd get is adds with 10 types of snares, couple of fears, maybe a negate and extra high hp.
No ty.

Nirntrotter

If well done I would absolutely for it. At least things that are already a separate instance could be scaled.

orion_1981usub17_ESO

Lnin0 wrote: »

Why not just offer players a difficulty slider for overland content. Increasing the difficulty increases loot quality. Should not be too hard considering they already scale the player to the world.

You cant have the public mobs being two different difficulties at the same time. Imagine if your in "harder mode" and the guy next to you is in "easy mode", what they mob your both attacking going to do?

The reason all mobs in public areas were homogenized is because each zone was level locked. Now they're all scaled to a single baseline because the developer can not lock out a level three player from the area.

Ask for new harder zones with better more difficult mobs that are not for new players. Maybe you could have that, but they can't and won't change previous public content difficulty.