Delves, Public dungeons and group delves NEED a "veteran" mode

Alurria · April 2021

Iccotak wrote: »

Alurria wrote: »

It's nice that a few people want a new world and all but then where does it end once you beat the harder content what then? Another instance? It will never end.

There is clearly a level above "beginner" that most people would find acceptable.

Like it was said by someone who played for 4 months

I feel that the outdoor world is a bit too easy about 90% of the time and way too tedious the other 10%.
What I mean is the majority of the mobs you’re gonna fight in this game in the outside world are pathetically simple to slaughter.

You can cut them down by the dozens no problem but then you’ll encounter bigger NPCs every so often that take a little bit of time to kill because they have these big large health pools.

If you’re gonna have tougher NPCs in the open world, you gotta make them Tougher - more mechanics, more ways that they can kill you, and so on and so forth.

So yes there is clearly an acceptable level of increase and I don't find much basis in this "it will never end" argument.

Cherry picking my comment doesn't answer my question of why do the devs create veteran content such as trials and vet dungeons? Where will the money and man power come from reworking content? Are you willing to rebuy the content because it has to be paid for in order to be reworked that costs time and money? Seriously, it would be better asking for new veteran content instead of trying to get them to remake old content. What is it that is trying to be accomplished here something for everyone or only a few?

Agenericname · April 2021

SilverBride wrote: »

Claiming that veteran rewards is so ZoS will seriously consider this proposition as worthy of their time does not hold water. In fact, it would be a deterrent because it would cause more problems that it's worth.

Can you imagine how someone who geared up for veteran trials, and trained their rotations, and prepared by learning all the fights would feel to see someone who never stepped foot in a trial wearing veteran gear they got from doing overland content?

That would cause complete conflict among the player base, and totally render veteran dungeons and trials as not worth anyone's time and effort.

However, regardless of anyone's thoughts on that, there is just not enough support to justify something that very few players would ever utilize.

There is no conflict now and there's no reason to believe there would be. In fact, evidence suggests that there would not be a conflict. Players can already acquire gear from normal instances such as Cloudrest, Sunspire, Blackrose Prison, vMA, vDSA, with a negligible decrease in power. The overland sets are the same for everyone. A player new to trials can be within a few % (as far as gear is concerned) of a maxed out player now with considerably less effort. There is no outcry. Nobody cares.

SilverBride · April 2021

Agenericname wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Claiming that veteran rewards is so ZoS will seriously consider this proposition as worthy of their time does not hold water. In fact, it would be a deterrent because it would cause more problems that it's worth.

Can you imagine how someone who geared up for veteran trials, and trained their rotations, and prepared by learning all the fights would feel to see someone who never stepped foot in a trial wearing veteran gear they got from doing overland content?

That would cause complete conflict among the player base, and totally render veteran dungeons and trials as not worth anyone's time and effort.

However, regardless of anyone's thoughts on that, there is just not enough support to justify something that very few players would ever utilize.

There is no conflict now and there's no reason to believe there would be. In fact, evidence suggests that there would not be a conflict. Players can already acquire gear from normal instances such as Cloudrest, Sunspire, Blackrose Prison, vMA, vDSA, with a negligible decrease in power. The overland sets are the same for everyone. A player new to trials can be within a few % (as far as gear is concerned) of a maxed out player now with considerably less effort. There is no outcry. Nobody cares

There is no conflict now because nothing has happened.

Iccotak · April 2021

SilverBride wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

However, regardless of anyone's thoughts on that, there is just not enough support to justify something that very few players would ever utilize.

You keep saying that yet I have not seen an data to back this claim

Nor have we seen any to the contrary.

As far as all these new players who quit because it was too easy... where are they? Stating what someone else said is hearsay. If these players have something to say they need to speak for themselves.

Well I literally provided a video and a text of player's feedback after four months of playing - who described the specific problem they had with overland content. Sure, that is an example of one individual but they exist nonetheless - and let us not discount the people amongst these forums and on reddit who described similar criticisms.

Seems disingenuous to say they don't exist.

Iccotak · April 2021

Alurria wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Alurria wrote: »

It's nice that a few people want a new world and all but then where does it end once you beat the harder content what then? Another instance? It will never end.

There is clearly a level above "beginner" that most people would find acceptable.

Like it was said by someone who played for 4 months

I feel that the outdoor world is a bit too easy about 90% of the time and way too tedious the other 10%.
What I mean is the majority of the mobs you’re gonna fight in this game in the outside world are pathetically simple to slaughter.

You can cut them down by the dozens no problem but then you’ll encounter bigger NPCs every so often that take a little bit of time to kill because they have these big large health pools.

If you’re gonna have tougher NPCs in the open world, you gotta make them Tougher - more mechanics, more ways that they can kill you, and so on and so forth.

So yes there is clearly an acceptable level of increase and I don't find much basis in this "it will never end" argument.

Cherry picking my comment doesn't answer my question of;

- why do the devs create veteran content such as trials and vet dungeons?
- Where will the money and man power come from reworking content?
- Are you willing to rebuy the content because it has to be paid for in order to be reworked that costs time and money?

Seriously, it would be better asking for new veteran content instead of trying to get them to remake old content. What is it that is trying to be accomplished here something for everyone or only a few?

1. Why does ZOS develop challenging content? because people enjoy it. The devs also give that content rewards to further incentivize participation. Which leads to different people trying it out and maybe finding out along the way that they like that kind of content

2. ESO is not an indie game, they are a successful MMORPG backed by Bethesda & Microsoft. They have the resources.

3. ZOS did not ask players to "re-buy content" when they gave ALL old dungeons a normal & veteran setting. Or when they overhauled Craglorn. They certainly did not ask the player to pay for all the small visual changes to the base game that happened over time with each new content release. Or the CP overhaul. There are alot of free updates & overhauls that the player did not have to pay for all over again.
Did WoW players have to buy the latest expansion in order to experience the overhauled & updated base game zones for Cataclysm?

4. What is trying to be accomplished?
Well, many of us have been asking ZOS to make Overland questing Fun for more than just fresh beginners or extreme casuals. New players who have voiced the same complaint, not just Vet players. We'd like the Main Story Boss to actually live up to the hype. We'd like questing and story to be fun for our ongoing characters and not only be for new characters.

We also generally understand that such an project / activity would have to satisfy the interests of those apart from the people who'd just like a challenge.
It just seems silly to have an activity/mode that only satisfies the desires of only one very specific audience. Maximizing participation justifies the investment on such projects.

That's my take on it but I have found others that agree with me, mostly.

edited to further clarify point 4

kargen27 · April 2021

Iccotak wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

However, regardless of anyone's thoughts on that, there is just not enough support to justify something that very few players would ever utilize.

You keep saying that yet I have not seen an data to back this claim

Nor have we seen any to the contrary.

As far as all these new players who quit because it was too easy... where are they? Stating what someone else said is hearsay. If these players have something to say they need to speak for themselves.

Well I literally provided a video and a text of player's feedback after four months of playing - who described the specific problem they had with overland content. Sure, that is an example of one individual but they exist nonetheless - and let us not discount the people amongst these forums and on reddit who described similar criticisms.

Seems disingenuous to say they don't exist.

Overland content isn't going to change. Your best hope is for public dungeons. ZoS would have to rework mechanics on all the creatures we encounter to make a challenging vet content. All those new mechanics would need to be balanced and tested before they go live. No matter what level of difficulty they provide there will be players that say it isn't hard enough and other players saying it is to hard. Where the game is now there is no reason for ZoS to create vet instances for overland. Would be a waste of their resources.

The best way to handle overland content is follow the stories for a while if you enjoy the stories and when it seems the least bit tedious head to some of the harder content for a while. When you are ready to relax go back to following the story.

SilverBride · April 2021

Iccotak wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

As far as all these new players who quit because it was too easy... where are they? Stating what someone else said is hearsay. If these players have something to say they need to speak for themselves.

Well I literally provided a video and a text of player's feedback after four months of playing - who described the specific problem they had with overland content. Sure, that is an example of one individual but they exist nonetheless - and let us not discount the people amongst these forums and on reddit who described similar criticisms.

Seems disingenuous to say they don't exist.

I never said these players don't exist... I just don't think there are very many of them. But the ones who do exist need to speak for themselves.

I actually watched some of that video on YouTube so I could read the comments. The narrator was pretty complimentary of ESO in general. And the comments... never saw a single one even mentioning that overland was too easy, let alone agreeing with that part.

As far as what players are saying on reddit, I'm not going to search outside forums for feedback on ESO.

Sanguinor2 · April 2021

SilverBride wrote: »

I never said these players don't exist... I just don't think there are very many of them. But the ones who do exist need to speak for themselves.

Why would a new player that quit the game after a short while be on the forums to talk about why he quit? Should be pretty obvious why you dont see them writing on the forums.

Hallothiel · April 2021

Another thread on this?
With the usual suspects asking?

1) The Cost.
This will cost. I would imagine that budgets are decided way in advance, as are time & resources. Just because they are a big company now does not mean they have access to infinite funds.

Which leads to my second point:
2) How many people actually want this? You may be vocal on the forums, but ZOS can see the metrics of players, what level they are, what they are mainly doing etc. Even I can see some of that, on the ps trophy page for the game - and seeing as ps is about 1/3 of the player base, it shows that the majority do not even attempt the ‘harder’ stuff in the game as it is.

So why would they waste time & resources & money on something very very few people would actually play?

Yes, overland is not particularly difficult. Nor are some delves. Group dungeons less so - just because some are so awesome at the game they can defeat anything with one button press, don’t forget that the vast majority cannot, and probably will not ever, solo group things.

To be honest, this is the one aspect of MMOs I dislike intensely; the need for some to somehow validate themselves by being able to press buttons better than others. Surely these games should be about co-operation rather than being so ‘awesome’ you can solo whatever?

There are other games that are there to test this kind of thing; please stop trying to make ESO like them, and enjoy it for what it is.

(See, I like Assassins Creed games, and would love to be able to parkour around Tamriel. But that would require huge changes to the game design just to fulfil my desires and I know that would never happen as it is a different game. And I can accept that.)

Supertonicbaker · April 2021

This would be interesting to try out if ever implemented but I really play this game to relax and have fun. Harder mechanics and all that is fun too, not saying it’s not, but I like running around like the demigod the Vestige is, annihilate everything around me while thinking “POWER!! UNLIMITED POWER!!!”

RedMuse · April 2021

Supertonicbaker wrote: »

This would be interesting to try out if ever implemented but I really play this game to relax and have fun. Harder mechanics and all that is fun too, not saying it’s not, but I like running around like the demigod the Vestige is, annihilate everything around me while thinking “POWER!! UNLIMITED POWER!!!”

Suggestion: Play a sorc, choose Overload as ulti. Instant Palpatine, lol.

SilverBride · April 2021

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I never said these players don't exist... I just don't think there are very many of them. But the ones who do exist need to speak for themselves.

Why would a new player that quit the game after a short while be on the forums to talk about why he quit? Should be pretty obvious why you dont see them writing on the forums.

If a new player quit and didn't bring their issue to the forum they are no longer a factor. They aren't playing or following the game, so anything they said or did a year or more ago is irrelevant to what is going on in ESO today.

And the narrator of that YouTube didn't quit. In fact he encouraged others to give ESO a chance.

I'd also like to point out that the mobs the YouTube player found too easy were in a starter zone.

Raegwyr · April 2021

Hallothiel wrote: »

Another thread on this?
With the usual suspects asking?

1) The Cost.
This will cost. I would imagine that budgets are decided way in advance, as are time & resources. Just because they are a big company now does not mean they have access to infinite funds.

Which leads to my second point:
2) How many people actually want this? You may be vocal on the forums, but ZOS can see the metrics of players, what level they are, what they are mainly doing etc. Even I can see some of that, on the ps trophy page for the game - and seeing as ps is about 1/3 of the player base, it shows that the majority do not even attempt the ‘harder’ stuff in the game as it is.

So why would they waste time & resources & money on something very very few people would actually play?

Yes, overland is not particularly difficult. Nor are some delves. Group dungeons less so - just because some are so awesome at the game they can defeat anything with one button press, don’t forget that the vast majority cannot, and probably will not ever, solo group things.

To be honest, this is the one aspect of MMOs I dislike intensely; the need for some to somehow validate themselves by being able to press buttons better than others. Surely these games should be about co-operation rather than being so ‘awesome’ you can solo whatever?

There are other games that are there to test this kind of thing; please stop trying to make ESO like them, and enjoy it for what it is.

(See, I like Assassins Creed games, and would love to be able to parkour around Tamriel. But that would require huge changes to the game design just to fulfil my desires and I know that would never happen as it is a different game. And I can accept that.)

Based on https://psnprofiles.com/trophies/3610-the-elder-scrolls-online we can see that only 17% of players even reach level 50. By your logic all of the created content is done by small 17% of all buyers.
4,07% of players completed vMA. I can assure you that most players who completed vMA find overland trivial (not all of them tho). That around 25% of all players that have char above level 50.
Overall when you check achievements for vet dungeons it looks like around 20-25% of players who reached level 50 participate in end game (dlc vet dungeons). If even half of them are not happy with current state of overland (don't know about PS but on PC EU in my end game guilds 90%+ players dont care about overland because it is just boring for them and difficulty destroys all stakes that quests try to reach) then we can talk about big need for that kind of overhaul.
Second question is, how many players didn't even reach level 50 becaause they find the game to easy and blant (while playing mostly overland as new players?). I invited a lot of ppl to eso during last 5 years, most of them didn't stay because three main reasons:
1. Bugs and problems with servers (remember 2020 and pc eu not working for couple days in month being a standard? Yeah, I remember)
2. Combat was dull to them, animations were clunky, you couldn't feel the hits
3. Game is so easy it became boring after couple hours
We (or more ZOS) should ask how statistic for this level 50 achi would look like with additional difficulty? It wouldn't be lower that for sure as ppl who enjoy current one could still play it on normal mode. But I'm pretty sure it would be much highier then mere 17%.

Jeremy · April 2021

Fhritz wrote: »

Hi everyone.

Today I want to talk about the difficulty of the "solo" content. This content is actually too easy for someone who know some base mechanic of the game. While delves and public dungeons are actually good and enjoyable, the difficulty make them look like a simple walk around some beautiful places rather than actually dangerous places.

That's why these delves need an optional "veteran" mode, like every group instance in the game. My best memory of the game was vMA. I cried tears and blood, but I finally passed it. It was hard, but that's why this arena is actually "fun" and quite enjoyable. vVH is cool too, even if it's easier. I didn't even do it for the gear (I got the vMA perfected bow first time on my stam character tho) but actually because I wanted a solo "challenging content". The level of craglorn delves are what I exept about a "veteran difficulty" : If every "veteran" delves were as difficult as Shada's tear, I think every delves in the gain may gain in interest for vet player, because for now this content is literally, i think, "wasted"

What are your thoughts ? Feel free to debate !

A Veteran mode would be nice. Hopefully the addition of companions will make that possible, since it will round things out and give players who are not good at soloing some help if they need it. Because currently you're right, the landscape content on this game is just pitifully easy for experienced players right now to the point it's becoming dull. And considering how much of this game revolves around the landscape content, that's a real problem.

SilverBride · April 2021

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

[Quoted post was removed]

[Quoted post was removed]

They are speaking for themselves here. I've never claimed that anyone told me anything. I am basing my opinion on the amount of unique posters who are stating in these multiple threads that they find overland fine just as it is. And on my experiences in game, where in all my years of playing not one other player ever mentioned in zone chat or guild chat or anywhere that they find overland too easy... let alone that they were quitting because of it.

ZOS_ConnorG · April 2021

Greetings all,

After review we have had to edit or remove several posts for Baiting. Ensure when engaging in a discussion that you keep said discussion civil, constructive, and within the rules. If you see a post that is baiting in nature do not engage it with further hostility and instead report it for the moderators to review.

You are welcome to review the Community Rules here.

Iccotak · April 2021

SilverBride wrote: »

They are speaking for themselves here. I've never claimed that anyone told me anything. I am basing my opinion on the amount of unique posters who are stating in these multiple threads that they find overland fine just as it is.

All the while ignoring those who disagree and have experiences different from you.

And on my experiences in game, where in all my years of playing not one other player ever mentioned in zone chat or guild chat or anywhere that they find overland too easy... let alone that they were quitting because of it.

Ok, your anecdotal experience does not invalidate ours. You have never seen it - ok - we have. Just because you have never seen it does not mean it doesn't happen. It does not invalidate the existence of these people.

Consider the possibility that the people who are voicing this complaint are the ones who stuck around despite their criticism of overland. Consider that the average player who leaves the game due to overland being too easy does not care enough, or is not invested enough, to get on the forums to voice this complaint. They'll probably tell their friends and leave it at that.
(that has often been my experience)

It is on the game to engage the players consistently. If it can’t keep players engaged through overland content then don’t expect them to stick around long enough to get to endgame, let alone voice their opinion in the forums.

There are numerous threads from different people who have stated their problems with overland & story, quite a few of them mention either
- Just not playing overland anymore because it is not fun
- leaving the game for an extended period of time because of it, returning and still finding the same problem is there.

There are also threads & comments made by new players who voiced similar critiques of overland.

These posts are common on these forums & other online communities like reddit, youtube, and podcasts - and they are made by the people who care enough to voice their feedback.

Riptide · April 2021

We’ve been asking since the alpha. Good luck.

Daraklus · April 2021

RedMuse wrote: »

Funny how "we want more difficult content" discussions are so often very badly disguised, "actually we want better rewards" thread instead.

You are familiar with how incentives work, right? An added bit of difficulty should warrant better quality rewards, it's the reason why people do dungeons and raids on Veteran after all.

Say if you are given two jobs, one is harder while the other is easier (Lifting boxes versus folding paper), that offer the same payment. Would you really say that you'd be willing to lift and carry boxes around, when you could just as well go and fold paper and get the same payment?

Take these Endeavors as well for an example: If they're worth doing people will do them, if they reward for doing them is going to be more or less worthless, then I doubt people will do them.

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

I would absolutely HATE to have to farm overland gear again to add it to collections, just because it will be perfected, with no auto-upgrade.

You are the first person who mentioned Perfected gear. Don't think anyone is asking for that.

If anything people would like to have a better chance of getting higher quality gear, which I don't see anything wrong with that.

Sarannah wrote: »

But lets be honest... you guys don't want a veteran mode. You just want higher rewards for the same content you are doing now. We can already see this in regular dungeons. Both normals and veterans give the same amount of transmutation crystals, and we can see which mode most 'elite' players choose. They still go normal, as the rewards are the same. So this is not about difficulty.

Please, don't presume what people want, and don't go down the "You think you do but you don't" route. Last time that happened, the person who said it had to deliver the news of what people exactly wanted.

Oh, and I am one of those players who does the daily dungeon on Veteran. Why? Because I also want purple gear, and because Normals are insultingly easy to me.

Iccotak wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Classic WoW has hard base game zones. Leveling was actually somewhat challenging. It's a big part as to why its return was such a success.

No it doesn't. I played WoW from launch, and while it took a lot longer to get around and earn gold and be able to ride a mount, the mobs weren't any harder.

Um yeah they were - they hit a LOT harder and players definitely did less damage & had less resources to spend on abilities - I know because I played it.
EDIT: here a guy does an experiment and shows how both play - there is a clear difference between retail & classic
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKCk6ivjWWc

I can confirm, I found myself enjoying Classic WoW a lot more than Retail. Part being the world itself, part being that it's not a confusing mess like Retail is.

And this isn't "Nostalgia", because I've played with people who didn't play WoW in the old days, who found themselves preferring the old vs the new. How do you explain that?

Wolfpaw wrote: »

Plenty of difficult pve content already, overland is fine.

Why is it that whenever someone wants a bit of challenge in their gameplay, they should be relegated to doing only Dungeons or Raids?

Dungeons are good and all, but you know I actually HATE doing dungeons repeatedly, and would prefer to do something else in the game.

Raids don't interest me, PvP is something that I find to be boring, what else is there for me to do? Quests? I'd love to do them but I don't have fun killing things in a single blow and to then have a great and powerful boss monster die in ten seconds.

What happens then is that I play for around three months, get sick of dungeons and then quit for about six months because thegame has nothing challenging to offer outside of dungeons. And I highly doubt anyone would consider this to be a good thing.

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

YOU CAN DO THAT YOURSELF ALREADY! What's actually stopping you?

Because I don't collect and hoard countless sets, work on figuring out methods to make my character be more powerful, just so I can then throw it aside and run around naked just so I can feel a false sense of danger outside of dungeons.

SilverBride wrote: »

Some players are asking for it to be harder. Harder doesn't make it more fun for most players. Harder doesn't make it fresh and new again. Harder won't cure burnout.

Harder would be fun For Me.
It might not make it "Fresh and new", but it would be fun to go through, For Me
It might not cure burnout, but it'll prolong the time I spend with the game, which is good For My Enjoyment.

Riptide · April 2021

Eh, folks who haven’t done vMA may not understand. If you are heavy attacking and mashing three years into playing then vet overland seems superfluos and maybe even elitist. And the truth is that is the majority of people. And I don’t mean that at all ugly, it is just reality.

Again, in alpha and early closed beta overland seemed trivial to lots of us after the 100th or so remake. Because, well, it is trivial. We were vocal then and have been vocal off and on for years about a vet overland mode.

Nada.

kargen27 · April 2021

"Say if you are given two jobs, one is harder while the other is easier (Lifting boxes versus folding paper), that offer the same payment. Would you really say that you'd be willing to lift and carry boxes around, when you could just as well go and fold paper and get the same payment?"

If you think the game is like a job you are not playing right.

Daraklus · April 2021

kargen27 wrote: »

If you think the game is like a job you are not playing right.

You're missing the point.

If people are given the option of a harder and easier task for the same reward, the average person will pick the easier task because why do something harder if you're gonna get the same as doing an easier thing?

There will be people doing the harder task purely out of a sense of pride, but everyone else will likely take the easier task.

And you know, that's not exactly a good thing, because it doesn't encourage people to improve upon themselves. It is why I would rather see Overland to be just a bit harder baseline than be Beginner-level easy for the entirety of the 70% of the game.

Riptide · April 2021

One of the things I’ll mention to folks who wish for a vet overland mode is that what is working against it is simple - an aversion to making overland appear empty. It was one of the primary actors in why the factions were brought together (they were originally separated) etc.

Pulling us into separate servers for content based on difficulty will get nixed over and over because ghost town syndrome will get brought up and make all the dev hours around balancing/instancing/etc easy to say not worth it. They want us to see one another.

Maybe, maybe companions will change that conversation since it will make overland laughable rather than just trivial

The solution always has been a personal debuff angle....avoids all that. But shrug.

Iccotak · April 2021

Riptide wrote: »

One of the things I’ll mention to folks who wish for a vet overland mode is that what is working against it is simple - an aversion to making overland appear empty. It was one of the primary actors in why the factions were brought together (they were originally separated) etc.

Pulling us into separate servers for content based on difficulty will get nixed over and over because ghost town syndrome will get brought up and make all the dev hours around balancing/instancing/etc easy to say not worth it. They want us to see one another.

Maybe, maybe companions will change that conversation since it will make overland laughable rather than just trivial

The solution always has been a personal debuff angle....avoids all that. But shrug.

Comparing one separate instance based on difficulty is not the same as the player base being split 9 Different Ways based on Alliance choice & Zone progression.
If you want zones to not be empty than implement more incentives to participate like an event every month or two weeks.

Besides being completely backwards in terms of progression - It has already been explained more than enough times why a personal de-buff would not work, at all.

If that would have worked then being naked with no skills, or just a mediocre build, would have worked - it hasn't.

Riptide · April 2021

Oh I agree mate, it is just my opinion of why we haven’t seen it implemented from an instance perspective in the last 8 years.

And the debuff approach I think scares them from an exploit/balancing nightmare perspective.

I mean it is such an old issue *shrug

edit - and by debuff approach I mean, up the xp and/or reward and debuff the player sort of approach, which precludes needing to instance out - but hey, whatever

Hallothiel · April 2021

This is a game that most people play to relax, to enjoy & have fun. Why does it have to involve ‘pride’ and ‘improvement’?

Sanguinor2 · April 2021

Hallothiel wrote: »

This is a game that most people play to relax, to enjoy & have fun. Why does it have to involve ‘pride’ and ‘improvement’?

No one has to enter content where improvement actually matters. Everyone is free to choose which parts of the game they want to play.
There are people that enjoy overcoming challenges and have a lot of fun doing so and if people have fun overcoming challenges then improvement does have to be involved.
And pride depends on each individual so not even getting into that.

Daraklus · April 2021

Hallothiel wrote: »

This is a game that most people play to relax, to enjoy & have fun. Why does it have to involve ‘pride’ and ‘improvement’?

I don't know, why are there Veteran Dungeons and Raids with Hardmode settings and achievements, why is there PvP, an activity that is competitive in nature?

I too would like to "Relax, enjoy & have fun" with this game, but I can't really relax with a game that is extremely easy. In fact I find it more relaxing to run Maelstrom Arena than to go into a zone to do quests... But I've already ran Maelstrom Arena a hundred times now and I am sick of looking at it.

Ippokrates · April 2021

If you need challenge, you can always try to run solo one of few dozens of dungeons we already have, in veteran mode.

I did it last week few times with few chars at Arx Corinium and not only get a lot of fun, but also some precious medusa stuffs

All Hail Grinding! XD

Daraklus · April 2021

Ippokrates wrote: »

If you need challenge, you can always try to run solo one of few dozens of dungeons we already have, in veteran mode.

I did it last week few times with few chars at Arx Corinium and not only get a lot of fun, but also some precious medusa stuffs

All Hail Grinding! XD

Already did.
Regular dungeons are designed with more than one player in mind. So while the damage output is there to pose a danger to you, the health values are inflated so the fights end up dragging along.