SilverBride wrote: »

hands0medevil wrote: »

...been discussed many times and probably led us to CP nerf. Because what is the point in making solo content more difficult when we can nerf op players.

Exactly.

I don't know why anyone thinks overland and all its components should be veteran difficulty. No other successful MMO has hard base game zones. These zones are for leveling and telling a story and are not end game.

GW2 would like to have a word. Then again they have designated starter zones that ramp up difficulty as you level.

Sarannah wrote: »

No, there shouldn't be a veteran mode for those. Especially not with higher rewards. The why is mostly about newer players being able to find help with their delve/public dungeon/group delves. If there would be a veteran mode, this would be harder to do for them.

But lets be honest... you guys don't want a veteran mode. You just want higher rewards for the same content you are doing now. We can already see this in regular dungeons. Both normals and veterans give the same amount of transmutation crystals, and we can see which mode most 'elite' players choose. They still go normal, as the rewards are the same. So this is not about difficulty.

And besides that, most experienced players run through everything in delves/public dungeons/group delves anyways. Dragging the whole area after them. So the difficulty does not matter to them. Veteran or regular mobs following them, they won't stop.

There is a very distinct difference between being helped and carried. A max lvl character is only going to be helping if they rezz the newbie each time they die. Otherwise the high level character is destroying things and the newbie gets a couple hits in.

Normals and vets giving the same rewards IS the problem. If vet dungeons gave better rewards, then people would run those. Its basically zero risk and 100% reward with the current dungeon setup (excluding monster sets). You cannot divorce the risk/reward component from the equation.

If the mobs were tough enough to slap the player down when attempting to drag the entire area, they would absolutely stop.

Plenty of difficult pve content already, overland is fine.

kargen27 wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

RedMuse wrote: »

Funny how "we want more difficult content" discussions are so often very badly disguised, "actually we want better rewards" thread instead.

But that is proportional to the time spent, no?

These threads almost always start saying wouldn't it be fun if...

Then it becomes and give us better rewards.

The reward would be the more engaging combat. If you increase rewards much that creates unwanted and not needed animosity among players that are unable or unwilling to do the content. If they are only a bit better then really what is the point of raising them. I wouldn't mind veteran instances of public dungeons but they shouldn't come with better rewards.

Like I said before...

Because the game is designed around incentive. They’re not going to implement a difficulty slider without incentive. Just look at Dungeons & Trials

Sure a small population might play it (like myself) because they’d be more engaged - that said - if ZOS is going to get serious in investing resources in this kind of project then they want to maximize participation numbers.

That's the thing when coming up with new activities, there has to be more than one specific appeal to make it worth developing & playing.
Because not everyone is motivated by only challenge, plenty do it for reward. No one is pretending otherwise.
Just like any activity, give various reasons for players to participate.

That’s how the rest of the game works and I seriously doubt they’d make an exception here.

People are proposing a system that is well implemented into the rest of the game, thus operates much like everything else does.

Reward given is appropriate to the difficulty of that activity. That's how the game works.

I know what was said before and I think it is a bad idea to add tiers of rewards to content that already exists. These threads most always start as a way to increase the enjoyment of the game and within a post or two the caveat of better rewards gets thrown in.

Giving better rewards based on settings on a slider would be really bad. If two players are fighting one boss and one has his slider set to difficult why should he expect a better reward? Could be that the other player does most of the damage so why should he not get an equal reward.

With a vet instance of public dungeons I could see XP being based on the difficulty of the foes you face but no extra rewards beyond that. ZoS doesn't want to make the rewards so much better that players feel they need to go the vet route even if they wouldn't enjoy it for fear of missing out on rewards.

That could lead to ill feelings. Giving a reward that is only a bit better would have those doing the harder content complaining that they are not good enough to justify the jump up in difficulty. And you have the players that would try to tag along in the vet content hoping to piggy back others killing things for the better rewards.

Better to leave the rewards out so they don't become a focus of why we do the content. Instead let the challenge and the fun be the focus.

Well first off, you are assuming that two players with different difficulty settings (Normal & Veteran) would be in the same instance. - That would never work. - No wonder you think it is a terrible idea. You are thinking of a different system than what others are thinking of.

They would have to be in separate instances.

If the goal is to make overland and delves engaging & challenging then there is no way they could share the same instance. Not only would there have to be changes to enemy stats but also mechanics as well.

Secondly,

"Better to leave the rewards out so they don't become a focus of why we do the content."

Have you been playing? That is a major focus on why people do content. Is Challenge the sole focus for Dungeons & Trials? Depends on the player. Some do it for challenge, many do it for reward. - Like I said it is about making it appealing to more than just one type of player.

Third, to say that ZOS should not implement any kind of reward system for fear that it won't be perfect doesn't really make a whole lot of sense.

If they didn't put anything out unless it was perfect, or for fear of "what could happen", then we wouldn't have a game in the first place.

I mentioned that a slider would not work because players with different settings on their slider could be on the same boss. If you had different instances for vet and normal why would you need a slider. You mentioned the slider and I offered my opinion on why a slider would not work.

I know exactly what others are thinking. You mentioned the slider and a slider is not what others have talked about so I commented on the slider specifically. I have also expressed my opinions on separate instances in many many threads.

So because others said "difficulty slider" you assumed that you would still be in the same instance? Are you in the same instance of dungeons if you pick normal or veteran? No, same thing applies here.

If I am playing on veteran and Bob is playing on normal we would be fighting the same boss - but in separate instances. We would not be sharing a space and not even playing together. I would in fact be playing with Will who also picked the "veteran" difficulty setting.

Very, very few people suggested sharing the same instance with different difficulty settings because most understand that it would not work. Ever.

You are misconstruing what I am saying. I am not saying same rewards for different levels of difficulty. I am saying adding different tiers of rewards to existing content would be a bad idea. Especially bad for the base content. I never once suggested ZoS should not implement some kind of reward system. Again I said it would be a bad idea to put one in for content that already exists.

They already did that with dungeons when they were given Normal & Veteran difficulties

back in the old day the Dungeons with names like I & II - like Ash City were divided into normal & vet by their number.

So Ash City I was Normal while Ash City II was Vet. But now all dungeons have a Normal & Vet setting, and with appropriate rewards for both.

If ZOS were to create an overland difficulty setting then they would have to apply it to all normal questing zones including the base game - not just the latest zone.

if by different tiers you mean blue vs purple, then that is a simple solution - don't make all drops purple but there would be a greater chance that purple gear would drop.

add unique cosmetics for completing certain Vet Overland tasks & achievements. That would actually give people a reason to go back to older content, & try something new!

Many players enjoy the base content of the game.

And many don't because they find it boring overall. Both Vet & New.

The Base Game encompasses the majority of the content - yeah it should absolutely have a veteran mode. It would actually make it quite useless as a feature if it only applied to one new zone.

There is no system that the devs introduced that is isolated to only the new zone.

Some of those players would be compelled to try a more difficult level if it gave better rewards as they would feel they are missing out.

So they would be incentivized to try it out? Ok. it is still a choice.
There is plenty of content with incentives that people choose not to play.

This would lead to them not enjoying the game as much as they do now.

Well that is certainly not true for everyone.

That is just basic human behavior.

What is basic human behavior is enjoying overcoming challenge and resistance.
What is basic human behavior is that players are engaged when they actually have to think about what they are doing. If they are not thinking then they are going to get bored very quickly.

The only way to alleviate the bad feelings would be to make the rewards only slightly better to such a level there really is no difference.

OR the player is now motivated and incentivized to get better at the game to participate in harder difficulties & get better rewards. That is the cycle that the game uses.

If rewards stay the same players that want a better fight get it and players that just want to do the content easy can do that without feeling they are missing something. The fun of the experience is the focus.

Reward & Gameplay go hand-in-hand. You cannot have one without the other. Earning a reward is part of the experience.

You know this because otherwise you would not have talked about how those playing on easier difficulties would not feel like "they are missing out".

If they did give us a vet instance for delves, public dungeons and other content players would join just for the extra challenge.

I'm sorry that is very naive. You cannot make an activity that appeals ONLY to one specific niche. It has to have more than one reason for playing. That's how all activities are designed. There are plenty of us who love challenge and there are plenty that love getting that reward - you have to appeal to both. ZOS knows this because that is how they designed the game.

Another problem with separate instances in the zones themselves is the possibility of zones appearing abandoned and empty. The game needs to appear to be well populated with players for it to remain appealing as an MMO.

1. Where is this idea that everyone wants high-end players around? Or that these endgame players want to play the boringly easy content of Overland? - A good portion of Vet players find the majority of it boring and will play only if we have to. Which means not often. Other players certainly do not care for an OP player going in a killing everything before others have a chance to play.

Many players would like to enjoy the questing & story content - but the gameplay is just not engaging and your victories are practically handed to you on a silver platter. That is Not fun.
Forcing us to share the instance is not going to make us play with you more often.

2. The populace is not miniscule. This is not an indie game, it is a successful MMORPG.
Also zones can often feel empty largely because the developers don’t incentivize players to go there often.

If the developers regularly did events every month or every two weeks to encourage players to participate in other areas of the game like previous chapters then I think that would largely solve Zones feeling empty.

I think it is also worth considering that a reason many players don’t go to the zones or do the story is because they don’t find them fun at all. Again - Forcing us to share the instance is not going to make us play with you more often.

I mean heck WoW has the playerbase in separate servers and that game is doing very well - I am not saying we should just use separate servers - my point being that one separate harder instance is certainly not going to kill the mmo appeal.

Except many many players have actually said they would play in a more difficult area even if the rewards for doing so were no better. Not just one or two players.

Yeah and I would too but I am a niche - and I consider it naive to say that ZOS would make an activity for a specific niche and no reward for either the niche or the average curious player (that goes against their design of the whole game; added difficulty = added reward)

So why bring extra rewards and the problems they could cause

The problems you listed I don't consider problems because that is not how I see things happening. They are non-existent to insignificant "issues".

I do not see people being discouraged by rewards for higher difficulty tiers but rather encouraged, because that is how people work.
You yourself said how gaining rewards is part of the fun and yet you say it should not matter for the sake of focusing on fun - you cannot eat your cake and have it too.

The absolute only reason to have a slider is to allow players to change difficulties for themselves in the same instance others might choose not to.

That is what you assumed - and a rather careless assumption at that - what you did not consider, or ask, was if each setting on that slider transferred the player to a separate instance.

I still believe it would be a mistake to give better rewards in content that already exists.

and I am saying I do not see the problem - in fact it would add value to the overall game and not just specifically new content.

Which is ideal - it is ideal that a new feature adds value to the whole game and not just the new content.

Don't make those who do not want the harder content feel compelled to do it anyway through increased rewards

Do you feel "compelled" to do dungeons? Do people feel compelled for that content - or do they feel incentivized to participate?
Do you feel compelled or incentivized to use antiquities?

Making the content engaging is one important ingredient - incentive is the other important ingredient. ZOS understands this which is why they apply it to all content. Repeatable content especially. They make sure it has engaging gameplay and it actually serves a purpose to the player.

The game is on a loot-loop. Fun & Useful. To make an activity that does not serve that makes no sense. Regardless if that is applied to old content. (Which antiquities was - all new rewards applied to older zones)

I disagree with your reasons because I find them both inaccurate and contradictory.

I have never said the rewards are part of the fun. If something I typed suggests that then I was not being clear.

You said that players who don't participate in the vet difficulty will feel that they missed out on the experience because they got a lesser reward compared to those who played the harder difficulty. Therefore you consider earning a reward part of the gameplay experience, and therefore part of the fun.

People are still bitter about the change to weapons drops in Maelstrom arena. Sure that goes the other direction but same principle applies.

No, it doesn't....It is because it went the other direction that it is controversial. That is definitely not the same principle.

All players that participated were able to get the same rewards.

And same can be said for those who play the veteran instance. Nothing is preventing them from playing that content. It is their choice. If their character is not strong enough yet - then now they will have added incentive to get better.

Good example of this is the number of players that towards the end of the last event were completely over the crafting on every player they have but made sure not to miss a night because of the boxes.

This is my point exactly. ZOS designs content to maximize participation. They do not rely solely on fun gameplay - they give an added incentive for players to participate. If they were ever to implement difficulty setting for Overland/Delves you can bet your bottom dollar that they would implement an incentive system across the board.

As like antiquities it would encourage people to player more than just the new content - but all over the game.

If the content is at a level that new players can do it the difficulty will not be anywhere near high enough to make the more experiences players happy.

No one is asking for it to be as hard as a trial. They are asking that it not be mind-numbingly boring. They are asking to be engaged. This "it will never be challenging enough to satisfy" is frankly ridiculous because there is obviously a better difficulty than "Starter Island" which is where basically everything is at.
It is easy enough for a complete novice of video games to beat. There is clearly a better level of difficulty than that.

because trust me when I say that the current overland difficulty is what is truly alienating people. New & Vet alike.

People that want the harder content will play it without the better rewards.

Some will, sure, but if ZOS wants to maximize participants. (which they would) They will do what they always have done and have added incentive & reward to encourage people to play. This is how they do it.

Because the game is designed around incentive. Everything the game offers is designed around a reward system. Every. Single. Thing.

Extra rewards wouldn't be needed to bring them back.

It is not just about bring them back. It is also about getting new people interested. Like I said before - You cannot make an activity that satiates one specific desire, the activity has to have multiple reasons to play again and again and again.

ZOS has to do that in order to justify investing & developing the feature. Because not everyone is motivated by only challenge, plenty do it for reward. No one is pretending otherwise.

Adding tiers to content that has existed since the beginning isn't a good idea. New content is a different matter and you are failing to see the distinction.

What I am telling you is that this "distinction" is irrelevant, and is arbitrary, because the interest that it would raise for the average player is likely far greater than the supposed alienation.

If the features added rewards only applied to the new content that it came with, then you would see a mass concentration in the new content, and not very many participating in the vet content in the rest of the game.

When ZOS adds a feature - a key design point is that it adds value to the whole game and not just the DLC. If it doesn't do that then it is a failed feature.