@Tommy_The_Gun

i think they should change how magicka and stamina affects ALL abilities the same way they are going to do with "procsets":

- mag/stam for heal, shields and utility.
- sp/wd for dmg
- health for survival

they tried to do this with armor penetration but they are struggling because it is caped.

reduce ppl's multitasking is the only way to balance the game around different playstyle. right now there's only one proper way to pvp at cheesy lvls. the same setups dominates all kind of battleground for exemple.

if we manage to have proper glasscanons, pressure brawlers and supports, either tanks or healer (not magsorcs with 20k hp shielding for eternity+2, foreverrollers that oneshots when then are not rolling or overbrawlers that stand still forever until they decided to turnarround and instablowyouup) then we could end up with a less obvious meta at least.

Wolfchild07 wrote: »

This will be a buff if you're one of the <5% meta chasers. This will be a nerf if you're a filthy casual.

I do love some of the hyperbole. My Farm characters are hitting, with full weapon damage CP and their standard jewel traits (all fully gold, which they dont have on live because im not ever sinking the plating into that), a whopping... 4532 weapon damage and 3824 spell damage [4164 with full target dummy buffs].

Which puts the mag build at roughly ~70% (85% with buffs) of the live proc damage, and the sta build a bit higher.

I'm sure though, if you sacrifice significant amounts of anything that isnt weapon damage, you can get those sets to be slightly above where they are on live, which for most of them is "this is still pretty bad" most of the time.

Firstmep wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Well you do have up to 6573 pen passively....

And that gets counteracted in practice by stamina having almost exclusive access to minor breach accompanied by weapon choices providing penetration (which coincidentally everybody uses).

I don´t even know why i´m arguing. It takes 5 minutes of testing on pts to realize the discrepancy between stamina and magica proccs. There´s no real debate. A stam character will literally do more dmg with vateshran staff than a mag one.

And yet this penetration created a chasm of difference between mag and stam in Pve, in the exact opposite way.
I do think procs should scale like abilities, with a mix of spd /wpd and mag /stam.
I'm not even sure why they went with the current scaling method. It just seems lazy.

It seems like they're trying to make people choose between damage, healing, and durability, but it's not really working because of the way stat sourcing works. There are very few ways to trade off health or magicka for spell damage, because they usually come from different places. Spell damage mostly comes from weapon type, weapon traits, and jewelry enchants, while health and magicka come from attribute points and armor enchants. The result is that nobody is really trading away health for more spell damage, they're trading away mag recovery, range, or crit/status effect chance.

relentless_turnip wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Well you do have up to 6573 pen passively....

And that gets counteracted in practice by stamina having almost exclusive access to minor breach accompanied by weapon choices providing penetration (which coincidentally everybody uses).

I don´t even know why i´m arguing. It takes 5 minutes of testing on pts to realize the discrepancy between stamina and magica proccs. There´s no real debate. A stam character will literally do more dmg with vateshran staff than a mag one.

And yet this penetration created a chasm of difference between mag and stam in Pve, in the exact opposite way.
I do think procs should scale like abilities, with a mix of spd /wpd and mag /stam.
I'm not even sure why they went with the current scaling method. It just seems lazy.

It seems like they're trying to make people choose between damage, healing, and durability, but it's not really working because of the way stat sourcing works. There are very few ways to trade off health or magicka for spell damage, because they usually come from different places. Spell damage mostly comes from weapon type, weapon traits, and jewelry enchants, while health and magicka come from attribute points and armor enchants. The result is that nobody is really trading away health for more spell damage, they're trading away mag recovery, range, or crit/status effect chance.

An argument could be made for performance reasons. Given the additional calculation to equate a mix of stats. I dunno though...

Scaling proc sets on stats throws the entire performance issue out the window.

When ZOS started the proc-acolypse it was for performance reasons that they changed all of the random or percentage based proc conditions in favor of fixed proc conditions and set cool downs. After that one light attack would proc all three sets on demand.

Now, they are going to continually calculate the value of the proc based on ever-changing stat sheets? That is a huge computational increase. It makes a mockery of all the previous statements about making things more "performant".

katorga wrote: »

When ZOS started the proc-acolypse it was for performance reasons that they changed all of the random or percentage based proc conditions in favor of fixed proc conditions and set cool downs. After that one light attack would proc all three sets on demand.

Now, they are going to continually calculate the value of the proc based on ever-changing stat sheets? That is a huge computational increase. It makes a mockery of all the previous statements about making things more "performant".

For the life of me, I still don't understand why procs weren't simply nerfed commensurate with the percentage chance buff, ie: Proc used to have a 25% chance to do 10k damage? Now it has a 100% chance to do 2.5k damage.

It wouldn't have been a perfect solution either, but it would have spared a lot of the nightmare they're now managing and apparently attempting to correct.

Lets rephrase all of this -

NERF Proc sets for PVP -- stay the heck away from PVE k thnxs.

katorga wrote: »

kalunte wrote: »

@Tommy_The_Gun

i think they should change how magicka and stamina affects ALL abilities the same way they are going to do with "procsets":

- mag/stam for heal, shields and utility.
- sp/wd for dmg
- health for survival

I really think this is the direction they are heading, to be honest.

I for one hope that is not the direction they decide to go.

Considering that it is easier to stack Weapon Damage than it is to stack Spell Damage, which would result in Stamina builds having more overall power potential than Magicka builds. Keeping it so that skills, damage and healing, to scale from both W/S Damage and Stamina/Magicka helps alleviate that discrepancy. Also keep in mind that because Weapon Damage is easier to stack, it's also easier for Stamina builds to stack Weapon Damage + Health than it is for Magicka builds to stack Spell Damage + Health (since Magicka is more crucial for them). This would mean that in PVP specifically, Stam builds would be able to gain more power and defense that Magicka builds could.

From a PVE perspective, I honestly don't see the problem with healers or tanks being able to do okay damage or dds having access to decent heals. As long as healers have better (or rather, the best) access to group buffs, tanks to debuffs and CCs, and dds to damage potential, those roles will be desired. Nerfing the potential of a DD to heal or a Healer to deal damage won't make the healer role more important. What will is making sure that healer-focused skills are the ones that provide crucial buffs to the group to help with damage or sustain.

From a PVP perspective, the way I see it, there are two types of defense. Passive defense obtained through methods such as Max Health, Health Regen, Armor/Resistances, and Damage Mitigation. And, Reactive defense obtained through Heals, Shields, Positioning, Dodging, and Mobility. Passive defense is about being able to take a hit, while active defense is about being able to respond to a hit. Builds being able to do damage while having good reactive defense is, IMO, not as much a problem as builds being able to do damage or have while having passive defense.

Also consider that Stamina's reactive defense options—mobility, dodge rolling, etc.—don't scale from anything, while Magicka's—heals, shields—do. Putting Magicka reactive defense and damage on opposing scaling mechanics that don't apply to Stamina's reactive defense and damage, is a further nerf for Magicka builds.

If healing is too strong in PVP, it would be far better to slightly nerf all heals across the board, and then buff all sources of % Healing Done—the already existing stat that effects healing. That way, Magicka specs don't face quite as devastating a nerf, but obtaining stronger heals across the board requires a little more work.

Canned_Apples wrote: »

Rhaegar75 wrote: »

Any comments from the Devs yet?

Nope.
Have to wait for the patch notes this coming Monday, or no later than the following, if they intend to revise anything.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

Hopefully they actually nerf these sets and not make things worse than they actually are.
As it is now, I can only play in Cyrodiil because every other player is running multiple procs in BGs.

Indeed I hope that the intention to nerf procs will be fulfilled...fingers crossed

They best not make proc sets not worth running is all I'm saying.

Too many people would rather them just gone than find an actual compromise

I think if damage and healing scaled with max offensive stats universally, we'd be a lot closer to a balance most players could live with. I 'd have some issues with the discrepancies others have pointed out with regard to stamina vs magicka, and perhaps the "target number" of around 5k WD/SD is too low, but there'd be less obviously imbalanced potential for high survivability paired with high damage, which seems like the setup they're explicitly trying to avoid.

The problem is the remaining handful of proc sets scaling from max health: doing this gives us a handful of proc sets that allow you to hit harder as you become harder to kill, instead of the other way around.

Those sets will obviously become the meta, find their way onto builds used by 20-man groups, generate reasonable player frustration, and ultimately be nerfed in a future patch. I think it's best we skip over that whole circus and just get the numbers right on this PTS cycle.

ealdwin wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

kalunte wrote: »

@Tommy_The_Gun

i think they should change how magicka and stamina affects ALL abilities the same way they are going to do with "procsets":

- mag/stam for heal, shields and utility.
- sp/wd for dmg
- health for survival

I really think this is the direction they are heading, to be honest.

I for one hope that is not the direction they decide to go.

Considering that it is easier to stack Weapon Damage than it is to stack Spell Damage, which would result in Stamina builds having more overall power potential than Magicka builds. Keeping it so that skills, damage and healing, to scale from both W/S Damage and Stamina/Magicka helps alleviate that discrepancy. Also keep in mind that because Weapon Damage is easier to stack, it's also easier for Stamina builds to stack Weapon Damage + Health than it is for Magicka builds to stack Spell Damage + Health (since Magicka is more crucial for them). This would mean that in PVP specifically, Stam builds would be able to gain more power and defense that Magicka builds could.

i love when mag based setups forget that they have 7k "free" spell penetration when they do their maths about dmg output.

reaching or not the treshold and therefore the supposedly dmg output forgeting 7k armor pen while counting 700pôtential WD is awesome.

kalunte wrote: »

ealdwin wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

kalunte wrote: »

@Tommy_The_Gun

i think they should change how magicka and stamina affects ALL abilities the same way they are going to do with "procsets":

- mag/stam for heal, shields and utility.
- sp/wd for dmg
- health for survival

I really think this is the direction they are heading, to be honest.

I for one hope that is not the direction they decide to go.

Considering that it is easier to stack Weapon Damage than it is to stack Spell Damage, which would result in Stamina builds having more overall power potential than Magicka builds. Keeping it so that skills, damage and healing, to scale from both W/S Damage and Stamina/Magicka helps alleviate that discrepancy. Also keep in mind that because Weapon Damage is easier to stack, it's also easier for Stamina builds to stack Weapon Damage + Health than it is for Magicka builds to stack Spell Damage + Health (since Magicka is more crucial for them). This would mean that in PVP specifically, Stam builds would be able to gain more power and defense that Magicka builds could.

i love when mag based setups forget that they have 7k "free" spell penetration when they do their maths about dmg output.

reaching or not the treshold and therefore the supposedly dmg output forgeting 7k armor pen while counting 700pôtential WD is awesome.

Ugh, nobody's forgetting. Everybody is talking about the SD needed to get back to the proc damage they already have in u29, which already benefits from the exact same penetration.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

kalunte wrote: »

ealdwin wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

kalunte wrote: »

@Tommy_The_Gun

i think they should change how magicka and stamina affects ALL abilities the same way they are going to do with "procsets":

- mag/stam for heal, shields and utility.
- sp/wd for dmg
- health for survival

I really think this is the direction they are heading, to be honest.

I for one hope that is not the direction they decide to go.

Considering that it is easier to stack Weapon Damage than it is to stack Spell Damage, which would result in Stamina builds having more overall power potential than Magicka builds. Keeping it so that skills, damage and healing, to scale from both W/S Damage and Stamina/Magicka helps alleviate that discrepancy. Also keep in mind that because Weapon Damage is easier to stack, it's also easier for Stamina builds to stack Weapon Damage + Health than it is for Magicka builds to stack Spell Damage + Health (since Magicka is more crucial for them). This would mean that in PVP specifically, Stam builds would be able to gain more power and defense that Magicka builds could.

i love when mag based setups forget that they have 7k "free" spell penetration when they do their maths about dmg output.

reaching or not the treshold and therefore the supposedly dmg output forgeting 7k armor pen while counting 700pôtential WD is awesome.

Well don't forget that maces also give a fair amount of pen, and minor breach is pretty much only sourced from Stam skills/debuffs.
Your average light armor build with a destro staff isn't going to get much more pen, than most Stam users running maces or a maul.
Also it's not really 7k pen, Beacuse no one is going to wear 7 light pieces, let's be realistic here.

Also don't forget that there's nothing stopping certain Magicka classes from running DW or Mauls either now that their bonuses are unified.

A Magicka character might also benefit from the Staff 10% Penetration passive if they're using Force Pulse, Pulsar or Destro.

The staff penetration passive isn't exactly useful, because it's a 10% reduction to remaining resistances after all other resistance reduction and penetration have been applied.