Proc Set Rebalance - Issues

Decimus

With that stated, in Update 30 we are making all item sets that deal damage or heal scale with player stats. You will need to make a conscious build choice when looking at which item sets to include in your build, rather than simply equipping three proc sets for that aforementioned “free damage”.

-Brian Wheeler


Didn't take too much testing on PTS to find out that not only do 3-4 proc set full damage setups deal more damage than they do on Live (easy to reach 6,2k weapon dmg even on an Imperial with swift traits), but now it's also possible to run just one or two procs and get absolutely ridiculous tooltips on those.

The real losers of this rebalancing seem to be the balanced builds that built for both survivability and damage, as they have to spread their stats (where a triple dmg proc build can just stack weapon/spell dmg to buff everything) - these builds will wind up with worse tooltips on everything compared to Live, where as triple proc "free damage" builds improve on their Live server tooltips.

For a quick example this combination gets you way above 5,5k weapon damage on any class: DW/2H Deadland's Assassin, 3 Agility, 2 Zaan, Vateshran 2H, Trainee & any mythic - 3 weapon dmg glyphs on jewelry & warrior mundus.

Bloodthirsty jewelry & vamp toggle can also be used to reach way higher proc set damage than was previously possible, especially with sets like Sheer Venom (up to +100% dmg on the base tooltip) & Zaan (increases base tooltip dmg every second).

...and in group play there are also buffs such as Powerful Assault, Spell Power Cure, Minor Sorcery/Brutality etc that further increase the proc tooltips.


This is not going to be a pleasant experience, especially combined with the nerf to survivability from the (pointless) nerf to health regen.


Needless to say this requires a lot of attention as it seems to be contrary to what was supposed to happen according to Combat Preview post quoted above.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_BrianWheeler

Ocelot9x

I noticed that as well, i was trying builds around and i did a duel vs a nightblade stamina wearing vate 2h, with vampire+40k resistances i got hit for 4900. Why can't they just leave Procs outside of pvp ?

Irfind

They need to cap the sets, no more gain after (X) mag/stam, wd/md and health.

BohnT2

This can't be stressed enough, the current iteration of proc scaling on PTS is a huge step backwards.
Procs will now be even more the focus of your build because they can be buffed so easily.

The issues are on multiple levels:
The current values are too low, 5.8k weapon damage sin't hard to reach especially with the 1k weapon damage we've got last patch.
However at the same time for magicka specs it's incredibly hard to reach this number leading to a big discrepancy between magicka and stamina builds and proc sets.

The next issue is that procs only scale with 1 single stat in order to determine their tooltip, this was a big issue before when they were only affected by penetration.
This iteration has now added only a single stat that people have to focus on to increase the power of their procs, and in most cases it's a stat you will already focus on and one that isn't hard to come by.

This is worsened by sets like crimson who now award you for stacking HP, the thing that has been complained about for so long was that people could still have good damage from procs while being insanely tanky.
38k HP isn't much, stamina warden and necros run that all the time here on PC EU and the change will now result in those with a little more Hp to have even stronger crimson procs than this patch, with absolutely no loss at all.


The proc set scaling has to be reworked in the following way:
1. increase the required stats by a lot
2. cap the proc damage at their current values on live servers
3. have procs scale just like regular abilities with both resources and damage
4. never ever let offensive abilities scale with resistance or max Hp again it's unbalanced and healthy for the game

Waffennacht

Dont pigeonhole me bro

Faded

BohnT2 wrote: »

2. cap the proc damage at their current values on live servers

4. never ever let offensive abilities scale with resistance or max Hp again it's unbalanced and healthy for the game

Hard to believe it needs to be said.

ESO is never leaving the weak classes + OP gear meta I guess.

Sangwyne

BohnT2 wrote: »

4. never ever let offensive abilities scale with resistance or max Hp again it's unbalanced and healthy for the game

Please never ever let defensive abilities scale with offensive stats again, it's also unbalanced and unhealthy for the game. Currently Stamina scales the amount of damage, healing, and shielding on skills, sprinting, blocking, rolling, breaking free, and now healing from proc sets that players can achieve, why is one stat so dominant? Stamina players get damage, mobility, mitigation (from blocking/rolling), and healing from both skills and proc sets with the same stat they use for everything else. No other build in PvP is allowed to just get away with only stacking their main stat, all require some Stamina for breaking free, rolling, blocking and sprinting, Magicka builds are taking Well-Fitted on armor at this point.

This is on top of Stamina skills being 15% cheaper than Magicka equivalents, Medium armor having zero penalties and granting more armor, damage, and mobility than Light armor, on top of defensive passives that Light doesn't have. Add to that the fact that Medium has a much better armor skill; Magicka builds can't access Major Evasion but Stamina builds can easily get shields like Brawler, Shielded Assault, Bone Shield and Defensive Posture, along with Stamina heals like Vigor that eclipse anything Magicka has to offer. Where's the downside? Just stack damage and get everything else for free, it's the exact same meta we just had but dialed up to 11.

Brrrofski

Irfind wrote: »

They need to cap the sets, no more gain after (X) mag/stam, wd/md and health.

I thought this was their plan.

I assume that hitting the 5.8k weapon damage was max, and it was what procs were on live.

Not continue to add damage.

[snip]

[edited for bashing]

Canned_Apples

I was really looking forward to this change but this turned out to be a massive buff to free damage sets. I really hope @ZOS_BrianWheeler doesn’t let them go live as is, but I wouldn’t be surprised if they did.

Elo106

I dont understand how Zos didnt see this, the required Weapon damage was so easy to get they basically buffed proc sets for stam builds, stam builds that didnt need procs to be good.

Mag builds got nerfed and are now even further behind stam.

Brederode

BohnT2 wrote: »

The proc set scaling has to be reworked in the following way:
1. increase the required stats by a lot

Increasing the required stat will just mean the gap between the floor and ceiling gets raised again, even though ZOS wanted to close the gap with previous updates.

BohnT2 wrote: »

4. never ever let offensive abilities scale with resistance or max Hp again it's unbalanced and healthy for the game

So what should these sets scale with instead of HP / resistances? The current sets that will scale with HP / resistances are (selfish, heavy) tank sets. If you make those scale with stamina, magicka, weapon or spell damage you will basically nerf them significantly for PvE tanks. Current proc set changes already made enough light/medium sets that could be used on a (off-meta) PvE tank (hybrid) build pointless if you ask me (see Alkosh, Almalexia’s Mercy, Winters Respite, Hithis Hearth, Earthgore, Azureblight).

Pepegrillos

We went through the whole Cyrodiil fiasco so they could have enough time to tone down procsets. Apparently, the solution was to change the way they work. Yet it seems like the solution goes against the initial aim.

dinokstrunz

I don't get why ZoS went through this method of trying to balance procs when all they've done is just make the biggest oppressive procs even more deadly lol. Why is it so hard for ZoS just to simply select the most used/abusive proc sets and adjust them one by one instead of this "one bad apple" mentality. Got to do it the hard way I suppose...

YandereGirlfriend

Definitely NOT a fan of capping proc set damage. Like at all. Allowing sets to scale higher than their listed values is one of the more inspired design choices from this change. It's a fantastic change for PvE but obviously it's a problem in PvP.

The single best solution is to globally nerf proc set damage by 50% via Battle Spirit and call it a day.

Easy, breezy, beautiful and no need to globally nerf sets or tinker with scaling values. It solves the problem for the venue where it is actually a problem and leaves them alone everywhere else.

SidraWillowsky

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Definitely NOT a fan of capping proc set damage. Like at all. Allowing sets to scale higher than their listed values is one of the more inspired design choices from this change. It's a fantastic change for PvE but obviously it's a problem in PvP.

The single best solution is to globally nerf proc set damage by 50% via Battle Spirit and call it a day.

Easy, breezy, beautiful and no need to globally nerf sets or tinker with scaling values. It solves the problem for the venue where it is actually a problem and leaves them alone everywhere else.

Except, after some PTS testing, it's clear that this will be a huge buff to stam in some cases and a nerf to mag. I clear the weapon damage numbers that bring the power of the sets up to live on my stam characters just by running my normal setup. My mag characters aren't even close. Monster sets aren't worth using, and you can forget about using any other proc set unless you build for serious spell damage, and when you do that you lose so much crit that it's not worth it.

They've managed to achieve the exact opposite of their state goal with this.

YandereGirlfriend

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Definitely NOT a fan of capping proc set damage. Like at all. Allowing sets to scale higher than their listed values is one of the more inspired design choices from this change. It's a fantastic change for PvE but obviously it's a problem in PvP.

The single best solution is to globally nerf proc set damage by 50% via Battle Spirit and call it a day.

Easy, breezy, beautiful and no need to globally nerf sets or tinker with scaling values. It solves the problem for the venue where it is actually a problem and leaves them alone everywhere else.

Except, after some PTS testing, it's clear that this will be a huge buff to stam in some cases and a nerf to mag. I clear the weapon damage numbers that bring the power of the sets up to live on my stam characters just by running my normal setup. My mag characters aren't even close. Monster sets aren't worth using, and you can forget about using any other proc set unless you build for serious spell damage, and when you do that you lose so much crit that it's not worth it.

They've managed to achieve the exact opposite of their state goal with this.

Bringing Stamina up in PvE is hardly a crisis considering they are hardly tearing up the leaderboards.

And in a raid environment any magDPS should have no issue whatsoever reaching the scaling target considering you're receiving the m/M Courages, Minor Sorcery, Bloodthirsty, likely Siroria, etc.

As for not actually choosing to run a monster set that's pretty par for the course in an environment where everyone is starved for Critical Chance yet ZOS keeps stacking Critical Damage higher and higher and higher. Players will do whatever it takes to find that Critical Chance and it already involves the Slimecraw x Zaan one-piece stack. While I would like to, as a general principle, see monster sets used over one-piece bonuses, that is a design problem external to proc set scaling rather than a problem with the scaling itself.

the1andonlyskwex

From a mag standpoint I'm really baffled by these changes. Specifically, it seems like a massive nerf to everybody who isn't running golded out weapons and infused jewelry with spell damage enchants, which isn't exactly a class of player that needed more nerfs in the first place. I thought ZOS was trying to lower the ceiling without significantly hurting the floor.

I'm sure it's a niche build, but my Argonian magDK healer (for vet dungeons, not trials) is currently running purple rarity Spell Power Cure and Overwhelming Surge (both of which have spell damage set bonuses), and only has about 3700 spell damage (self-buffed). I might be able to get close to 5800 spell damage by golding everything out (+400ish), re-enchanting and transmuting my jewelry (+1000ish), swapping my mundus stone (+300ish to +500ish depending on my armor traits), and changing my race (+300ish), but that's a lot of changes just to get my proc damage back to the (not exactly overpowering) state it's in now. Furthermore, the main reason I'm running Overwhelming Surge at all is for the sustain, so swapping out mag recovery for spell damage on my jewelry (which accounts for most of the delta) seems rather counterproductive.

SidraWillowsky

I built for health and put on Leeching + Crimson + whatever that new head is, and the tooltips are absolutely insane even after I factor in Battle Spirit. Between the absurd tooltip for Arctic Blast (I've apparently overcome the nerf), Crimson's healing, and the damage done by Crimson and Leeching, I can pretty much stand in place and kill people. Even with all of the nerfs. I think that the unkillable tank meta is about to get SO much worse if this stuff goes live.

And I absolutely suck at PvP.

jaws343

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

I built for health and put on Leeching + Crimson + whatever that new head is, and the tooltips are absolutely insane even after I factor in Battle Spirit. Between the absurd tooltip for Arctic Blast (I've apparently overcome the nerf), Crimson's healing, and the damage done by Crimson and Leeching, I can pretty much stand in place and kill people. Even with all of the nerfs. I think that the unkillable tank meta is about to get SO much worse if this stuff goes live.

And I absolutely suck at PvP.

And it gets even worse if you do the necro or vamp transformation.

Health scaling for procs was a bad decision and really misses the point if the problem: people stacking health and defense and relying on procs for damage.

Urzigurumash

Let me wear a Hot Oil like a helmet, and dumping it can be a synergy

Let me see those agrees

SimonThesis

This is a significant buff to pvp ball groups. Uncapped scaling proc sets where every dps in group can get up to 8k Spell damage is extremely broken. The Dps can be glass cannons since these groups have 6 healers each wearing 2 buff sets with 6 earthgores in group while purge spamming. And every dps has the max number of Aoe hots on them at all times. All this has accomplished is nerfing the newer and poorer player and buffed the rich and more experienced.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert

Canned_Apples

Well.. we’ll know in a week if they intend to do anything about it.
I can’t play bgs because of all the cheese and now it’s going to get worse and infest cyrodiil too??

Anyron

Canned_Apples wrote: »

Well.. we’ll know in a week if they intend to do anything about it.
I can’t play bgs because of all the cheese and now it’s going to get worse and infest cyrodiil too??

​Last patch they made changes to armor, light and heavy got few buffs but nerfs too.. Light armor user gets more incoming damage while also having less base armor than medium does.
And they didnt change anything. Do you expect change this time?

Firstmep

Scaling definetly needs to be adjusted, to be a mix of wpd/spd and magicka/stamina.
That way it won't be so easy to reach those high values, while mag specs will have an easier time to actually scale a proc or two.
And in general the scaling rn is too generous.
And as mentioned above, sets like crimson should Not scale with max hp, you can reach some insane values with the right builds, like Goliath necro.

Nerhesi

If Proc sets do not outperform non-proc sets at their single target dps purpose, then proc sets are a trap.

Proc sets have to clearly out damage base stats or else they will disappear again, and the big problem of terrible class and general skill balancing will be more pronounced. The problem are the classes with over-performing skill using proc-sets as well because you can use proc sets while having really high base damage on non-proc abilities.

Proc sets basically have to make you less optimal in class skills/abilities - not be a free bonus on top of awsome hard hitting skills. Compare for example the magcro running double proc vs the magdk running double proc. While stacking spellpower, the inferior kit of the magcro does not see the same ludicrous spike that the magdk sees.

You need to separate what scales procs, from what scales spammables, from heals, from sustain, etc. The underlying problem with ESO is the concept of doing everything well... Procs are a very good step in the right direction in helping deal with the problem, but you have to keep pushing the "meaningful choice" agenda or else the game will continue with the raw-stat stacking that it has enjoyed for 5+ years now (with procs and other setups ranging from poor to alright but always a clear loser).

Nerhesi

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

From a mag standpoint I'm really baffled by these changes. Specifically, it seems like a massive nerf to everybody who isn't running golded out weapons and infused jewelry with spell damage enchants, which isn't exactly a class of player that needed more nerfs in the first place. I thought ZOS was trying to lower the ceiling without significantly hurting the floor.

The changes now and before do not support that unfortunately.

When single target dots (a normal MMO/RPG staple) were nerfed after a single patch - it didnt benefit the casual player. It further ensured the super-tight meta geared, and 1vXers could continue to safely kite and fighter many people.

If a system allows you to solo 3, 4, 5+ people simultaneously - you're not magically skilled or an amazing player. The system is flawed. The biggest evidence of this, is not only how the system suddenly changes with no CP (no free mitigation, no free sustain), but as to how the history of changes that have been rolled back have been from the loud minority.

To measure skill, this game would need gear neutral, mirror-matches - anything else is a useless exercise in pretending capitalizing on bad game design is an indication of one's skill.

Moonsorrow

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Let me wear a Hot Oil like a helmet, and dumping it can be a synergy

Let me see those agrees

I hope it would look a bit like the Infernal Guardian helmet, so there would be hot sauce flying out of the hole over everyone near you.

Firstmep

Make them scale of a mix of offensive stats, rather than just wpd/spd.

Also i said this before but arena weapons and monster sets shouldnt have the same scaling values as 5 pc sets, as they require far less gear slot investment.

Also this current iteration heavily favors stamina, where you can naturally reach the break even points even in solo play, whereas its a lot more investment for magicka.
And generally, the scaling after these sets reach the break even point should be lowered, in group play, where support sets can push your stats to insane values, these sets can get disgusting values very quickly.

And again, hp based scaling needs to go, same with resistance.

The whole point of this scaling change was that people shouldnt be able to benefit from these sets with mininal investment while building stupid tanky and dishing out huge dmg.

How is a 30k+ Explosive rebuke or crimson tooltip on a toon with 70k+hp or resistances a good thing?
These sets are not actually used by any pve tank anyway, they should not be considered tank sets, regardless of them being heavy armor.

Also the new Deadlands Assasin set. Why does it have 200 wpd? Its clear that it was added after the decision to make the scaling was made, and it looks like its trying very hard to sell itself.
The set gives more wpd than 5pc hundings rage, on top of having 2 separate procs as well. Bit too much mabye?

RatchetKaar

Capping the sets would be boring from a theory-crafting perspective. Scaling is a good idea but some procs are really overtuned in their "normal" values.
From testings looks like they made scaling values a bit unbalanced in each other.
Comparing:
5,478 Weapon or Spell Damage
38,350 Max Magicka or Stamina
38,350 Max Health
27,890 Physical or Spell Resistance

Being "normal" tooltip requirements.
Max values you can get for these are not balanced, while you "only" double wpn/spll dmg/magicka/stam values to build for max proc dmg, you triple the health and resistance values to get high value from procs. Not necessarily a bad thing but some of the procs should be excluded from this like "explosive rebuke".

For other "high dmg" builds the scaling will buff the dmg even more than the live dmg of the procs, if you nerf the scaling you will still hurt "balanced" builds more than the "high dmg" builds. I think the best solution would be to take away 1k wpn/spll dmg using the battle spirit. You should only be able to get higher than the "normal" values from the pros if you put everything on them.

ManDraKE

There are 2 main issues:

- Baseline wpn/spell damage is too high after the CP 2.0 changes. Without procsets you can oneshoot pretty much any non-blocking player, specially on nonCP/BGs, is funny for a while to run on full damage builds and nuke people but it gets old after a while, this feels like call of duty. Procsets scaling with this high level of weapon damage will only exarcebate the problem, full wpndmg+1proc set will be even more burst.

- The scaling curve seems to be to forgiving. We need some dimish returns at the top end of the curve, is too easy to stack high wpn damage in some specs.

Every time we get a high burst patch like this, we endup with a new tank meta 6-12 months later to compensate and we can probably agree that nobody likes tank metas, is boring and stale gameplay. They need to cut this vicious cycle and make conscious balance changes now in the few weeks we have on the PTS.

And PLEASE dont let that new mythic helmet go live, we dont want to have another 6 months of broken PvP just because they want to have one complete broken item to sell the expansion. We will buy it anyway, dont ruin gameplay just for greed.

Goregrinder

I think the scaling itself is fine, as it forces players to invest less on HP in order to get the same damage out of these sets as they had in Markarth. The problem is that there is no cap on these. If having no cap is the intention, then the base damage required to hit their old values should be increased by a lot. It's easy to get 5k weapon damage post CP 2.0. The requirement to hit old damage values needs to be closer to 7-8k weapon damage. Having no cap at that point is fine, because trying to get more WD/SD beyond 8k means you are giving up other things significantly, which should be fine if you are going for a glass cannon build using procs.