Proc Set Rebalance - Issues

jaws343

kalunte wrote: »

ealdwin wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

kalunte wrote: »

@Tommy_The_Gun

i think they should change how magicka and stamina affects ALL abilities the same way they are going to do with "procsets":

- mag/stam for heal, shields and utility.
- sp/wd for dmg
- health for survival

I really think this is the direction they are heading, to be honest.

I for one hope that is not the direction they decide to go.

Considering that it is easier to stack Weapon Damage than it is to stack Spell Damage, which would result in Stamina builds having more overall power potential than Magicka builds. Keeping it so that skills, damage and healing, to scale from both W/S Damage and Stamina/Magicka helps alleviate that discrepancy. Also keep in mind that because Weapon Damage is easier to stack, it's also easier for Stamina builds to stack Weapon Damage + Health than it is for Magicka builds to stack Spell Damage + Health (since Magicka is more crucial for them). This would mean that in PVP specifically, Stam builds would be able to gain more power and defense that Magicka builds could.

i love when mag based setups forget that they have 7k "free" spell penetration when they do their maths about dmg output.

reaching or not the treshold and therefore the supposedly dmg output forgeting 7k armor pen while counting 700pôtential WD is awesome.

The problem is that Mag in general is running less resistance on their own armor to gain that Pen, when compared to Heavy and Med armors. On top of that, Mag takes more damage from Med armor. So sure, mag can gain some Pen, but they are even more fragile when doing so than the Med builds that can stack weapon damage. And since mag as less armor to Penetrate, Stam is less effected by having less penetration.

ManDraKE

Derra wrote: »

I don´t even know why i´m arguing. It takes 5 minutes of testing on pts to realize the discrepancy between stamina and magica proccs. There´s no real debate. A stam character will literally do more dmg with vateshran staff than a mag one.

and it takes less than that to realize that magika procs hit way harder on live than stamina procs, or that magika proc sets are plain better (or show me stamina equivalents to calurions, zaans, etc). Feel free to link me to your post complaing about that

And i havent seen your numbers actually showing real builds to prove that stamina procs hit harder on the PTS compared to magika (not meme builds with 0 mitigation and 0 sustaion stacking all in wpn dmg). You are only watching tooltips screenshots, not testing the actual damage output on real builds.

Please, show me a single target stamina proc on the PTS hitting harder than a magblade calurions.

Joy_Division

Just have to laugh at all the people who claim there are easy fixes.

No there isn't. Three times we have had PvP dominated by procs and once this patch hits, that will be the 4th.

If balance was so easy, why is it after 7 years ZOS can't still attain a reasonable balance between the classes in PvP and why is it every 6 or 8 months, the top PvE guilds figure out what's mathematically best and fill their raid with 8 of the same spc?

We just think it's so easy. It wasn't their idea to base procs off stats, it was ours. And when they announced they were doing it, many clapped and cheered and just assumed that such an easy solution to a very complex problem would work itself out.

How exactly do you intend on finding that perfect line of balance where proc sets aren't either totally useless such that nobody wears them (and thus the current Cyrodiil PvP settings) or gamebreaking strong such that they are overbearing (Cyrodiil before procs were turned off)? You aren't going to be able to find that because under the current mechanics of the game that has no soft caps, the better theory-crafters can easily push weapon damage and health stats far beyond what the game orginally. To not make them gamebreaking in the hands of the strongest players, they are going to have to be useless in the vast majority of players because the disparity of power between a good theory-crafted build and one that's not is way wider than should have ever been possible.

And this problem will continue because ZOs still insists on using gear as a selling point. I have zero interest in companions, which is the main feature of this chapter. There isn't anything in it for me, I'm only getting this because I am competitive and I'd rather fork over $50 to get the busted gear they offer than throw my computer out the window trying to fight players who have it.

kalunte

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

kalunte wrote: »

ealdwin wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

kalunte wrote: »

@Tommy_The_Gun

i think they should change how magicka and stamina affects ALL abilities the same way they are going to do with "procsets":

- mag/stam for heal, shields and utility.
- sp/wd for dmg
- health for survival

I really think this is the direction they are heading, to be honest.

I for one hope that is not the direction they decide to go.

Considering that it is easier to stack Weapon Damage than it is to stack Spell Damage, which would result in Stamina builds having more overall power potential than Magicka builds. Keeping it so that skills, damage and healing, to scale from both W/S Damage and Stamina/Magicka helps alleviate that discrepancy. Also keep in mind that because Weapon Damage is easier to stack, it's also easier for Stamina builds to stack Weapon Damage + Health than it is for Magicka builds to stack Spell Damage + Health (since Magicka is more crucial for them). This would mean that in PVP specifically, Stam builds would be able to gain more power and defense that Magicka builds could.

i love when mag based setups forget that they have 7k "free" spell penetration when they do their maths about dmg output.

reaching or not the treshold and therefore the supposedly dmg output forgeting 7k armor pen while counting 700pôtential WD is awesome.

Ugh, nobody's forgetting. Everybody is talking about the SD needed to get back to the proc damage they already have in u29, which already benefits from the exact same penetration.

saying that you're assuming that procset were basically benefiting more to mag than to stam and you are now complaining that they are on par now?

the1andonlyskwex

kalunte wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

kalunte wrote: »

ealdwin wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

kalunte wrote: »

@Tommy_The_Gun

i think they should change how magicka and stamina affects ALL abilities the same way they are going to do with "procsets":

- mag/stam for heal, shields and utility.
- sp/wd for dmg
- health for survival

I really think this is the direction they are heading, to be honest.

I for one hope that is not the direction they decide to go.

Considering that it is easier to stack Weapon Damage than it is to stack Spell Damage, which would result in Stamina builds having more overall power potential than Magicka builds. Keeping it so that skills, damage and healing, to scale from both W/S Damage and Stamina/Magicka helps alleviate that discrepancy. Also keep in mind that because Weapon Damage is easier to stack, it's also easier for Stamina builds to stack Weapon Damage + Health than it is for Magicka builds to stack Spell Damage + Health (since Magicka is more crucial for them). This would mean that in PVP specifically, Stam builds would be able to gain more power and defense that Magicka builds could.

i love when mag based setups forget that they have 7k "free" spell penetration when they do their maths about dmg output.

reaching or not the treshold and therefore the supposedly dmg output forgeting 7k armor pen while counting 700pôtential WD is awesome.

Ugh, nobody's forgetting. Everybody is talking about the SD needed to get back to the proc damage they already have in u29, which already benefits from the exact same penetration.

saying that you're assuming that procset were basically benefiting more to mag than to stam and you are now complaining that they are on par now?

I'm not making a judgement on that one way or another. I haven't done all that much PvP since before Malacath became a thing. That said, the impression I get from these forums is that most of the OP builds are health/stam builds with stam proc damage, not mag builds.

What I do know for sure is that my PvE mag procs are getting a lot weaker in u30, while PvE stam procs are either getting stronger or are getting weaker by a much smaller amount.

TheAlphaRaider

https://discord.com/channels/620089391326429185/620089391326429187/834968399486386196


HELLO! DEVS! LOOK!

Crimson! You NEED to nerf CRIMSON directly not with a hammerstroke fix! Crimson is the one set you NEEDED to nerf and you buffed it. Don't let this patch go live without a Crimson rework. I don't know where else to post this. PLEASE NOTICE ME SENPAI!

Merforum

Crimson is perfectly fine now or on PTS, tanks have no viable sets in PVE that give a tiny bit of damage on PTS I know for a fact crimson in PVP is terrible because only the worst players do not roll out of it. With the longest cast time of any skill or set of 2 full seconds I can not believe all these complaints. Maybe instead of NERFing AGAIN the only thing left to help Tanks do a bit of damage when stuck with pug in DF, either ban the set from PVP or make cast time 4 seconds or hopefully you are just ignoring these threads.

GreenHere

Joy_Division wrote: »

Just have to laugh at all the people who claim there are easy fixes.

No there isn't. Three times we have had PvP dominated by procs and once this patch hits, that will be the 4th.

If balance was so easy, why is it after 7 years ZOS can't still attain a reasonable balance between the classes in PvP and why is it every 6 or 8 months, the top PvE guilds figure out what's mathematically best and fill their raid with 8 of the same spc?

We just think it's so easy. It wasn't their idea to base procs off stats, it was ours. And when they announced they were doing it, many clapped and cheered and just assumed that such an easy solution to a very complex problem would work itself out.

How exactly do you intend on finding that perfect line of balance where proc sets aren't either totally useless such that nobody wears them (and thus the current Cyrodiil PvP settings) or gamebreaking strong such that they are overbearing (Cyrodiil before procs were turned off)? You aren't going to be able to find that because under the current mechanics of the game that has no soft caps, the better theory-crafters can easily push weapon damage and health stats far beyond what the game orginally. To not make them gamebreaking in the hands of the strongest players, they are going to have to be useless in the vast majority of players because the disparity of power between a good theory-crafted build and one that's not is way wider than should have ever been possible.

And this problem will continue because ZOs still insists on using gear as a selling point. I have zero interest in companions, which is the main feature of this chapter. There isn't anything in it for me, I'm only getting this because I am competitive and I'd rather fork over $50 to get the busted gear they offer than throw my computer out the window trying to fight players who have it.

@Joy_Division , I won't even pretend to be on your level of understanding balance and PvP at large or anything like that, but I would like to ask a knowledgeable long-time ESO PvP goer such as yourself:

Wouldn't just adding a -50% modifier to all Proc Damage into Battle Spirit go miles toward solving the problems?


Procs aren't a problem in PvE as far as I can tell, and if they all universally did half as much damage in PvP than they currently do it kinda seems to me (as an admitted dummy) that most/all the PvP Procpocalypse issues would quickly become non-issues... right? Is there a good (or super obvious) reason this isn't a workable solution that I'm just missing? I've never seen any real counter-argument, not that I recall. And ZOS has never even acknowledged the suggestion as far as I've seen.

I remember people asking for exactly this back in the Morrowind era when Proc Sets were becoming overbearing, but they decided to instead hammer CP & take away crits... then proceeded to later add in Malacath's Band, because ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ lol



As far as your question, "If balance was so easy, why is it after 7 years ZOS can't [...]" well, the forum rules about bashing prevent me from sharing my unfiltered opinion. :P

To put it politely, I don't think we face unsolvable or impossibly complex problems -- but my faith in the people in charge of finding the solutions leaves a lot to be desired. There are a lot of questionable choices sprinkled literally everywhere throughout ESO by many's standards. I don't wanna be Mr Armchair Dev Guy over here, but I can't help but wonder why the more simple / obvious stuff isn't tested on the Test Servers, or at least discussed frankly with the community now and then by the people who make those calls. The communication from ZOS is often poor or entirely lacking, and without it we're kind of left to assume incompetence might be a likely answer for the game's problems.

Joy_Division

GreenHere wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Just have to laugh at all the people who claim there are easy fixes.

No there isn't. Three times we have had PvP dominated by procs and once this patch hits, that will be the 4th.

If balance was so easy, why is it after 7 years ZOS can't still attain a reasonable balance between the classes in PvP and why is it every 6 or 8 months, the top PvE guilds figure out what's mathematically best and fill their raid with 8 of the same spc?

We just think it's so easy. It wasn't their idea to base procs off stats, it was ours. And when they announced they were doing it, many clapped and cheered and just assumed that such an easy solution to a very complex problem would work itself out.

How exactly do you intend on finding that perfect line of balance where proc sets aren't either totally useless such that nobody wears them (and thus the current Cyrodiil PvP settings) or gamebreaking strong such that they are overbearing (Cyrodiil before procs were turned off)? You aren't going to be able to find that because under the current mechanics of the game that has no soft caps, the better theory-crafters can easily push weapon damage and health stats far beyond what the game orginally. To not make them gamebreaking in the hands of the strongest players, they are going to have to be useless in the vast majority of players because the disparity of power between a good theory-crafted build and one that's not is way wider than should have ever been possible.

And this problem will continue because ZOs still insists on using gear as a selling point. I have zero interest in companions, which is the main feature of this chapter. There isn't anything in it for me, I'm only getting this because I am competitive and I'd rather fork over $50 to get the busted gear they offer than throw my computer out the window trying to fight players who have it.

@Joy_Division , I won't even pretend to be on your level of understanding balance and PvP at large or anything like that, but I would like to ask a knowledgeable long-time ESO PvP goer such as yourself:

Wouldn't just adding a -50% modifier to all Proc Damage into Battle Spirit go miles toward solving the problems?


Procs aren't a problem in PvE as far as I can tell, and if they all universally did half as much damage in PvP than they currently do it kinda seems to me (as an admitted dummy) that most/all the PvP Procpocalypse issues would quickly become non-issues... right? Is there a good (or super obvious) reason this isn't a workable solution that I'm just missing? I've never seen any real counter-argument, not that I recall. And ZOS has never even acknowledged the suggestion as far as I've seen.

I remember people asking for exactly this back in the Morrowind era when Proc Sets were becoming overbearing, but they decided to instead hammer CP & take away crits... then proceeded to later add in Malacath's Band, because ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ lol



As far as your question, "If balance was so easy, why is it after 7 years ZOS can't [...]" well, the forum rules about bashing prevent me from sharing my unfiltered opinion. :P

To put it politely, I don't think we face unsolvable or impossibly complex problems -- but my faith in the people in charge of finding the solutions leaves a lot to be desired. There are a lot of questionable choices sprinkled literally everywhere throughout ESO by many's standards. I don't wanna be Mr Armchair Dev Guy over here, but I can't help but wonder why the more simple / obvious stuff isn't tested on the Test Servers, or at least discussed frankly with the community now and then by the people who make those calls. The communication from ZOS is often poor or entirely lacking, and without it we're kind of left to assume incompetence might be a likely answer for the game's problems.

There's a lot to unpack here. While I do spend most of my time PvPing, that doesn;t mean I don't care about PvE. In fact, I find it frustrating that the vast majority of this proc gear isn't considered viable in PvE. How ridiculous it is that many people in PvE won;t even wear a complete monster set because in their damage parses, two different critical hit chance bonuses is more efficient? That's crazy. And we are stuck with that because years ago, another oversimplified "fix" to procs was implemented: preventing them from critically striking.

Do you know I have been PvEing with the same Maelstrom Destruction staff I got back in 2015? I don't know why ZOs caters procs to PvP when many PvP players don;t even like them, which shuts out most of the community who plays the game (PvE) from effective gear.

Yes, if Battlespirt reduces their effectiveness by 50%, then that will pretty much solve the main objection that players have: fighting against proc sets is too overbearing. But this would make them so ineffective for players who did not perfectly min-max builds that hardly anybody would use them, which pretty much is just re-creating the environment currently in place in cyrodiil where they are disabled. Plus I suspect that such a 50% reduction would not be so easy to apply. ZOS's coding seems to think a set like Clever Alchemist is a "proc set" and thus there would have to be an awful lot of testing and checking to ensure only the "real" procs are affected.

So if we use Battlespirt, I'll still be only using my 2015 Maelstrom staff, PvE parsers will still opt not to use complete Monster sets, people who PvE are disadvantaged because their procs can;t critically hit, and most proc gear in cyrodiil will have their values so small that most people won't use them. I don;t like getting hit with 4 procs that do 20K in a single Global cooldown, but I did go through the trouble of acquiring this gear, I'd like to use it. Preferably, not just in PvP.

Way way way back when procs first came up (2016 with the whole Red Mountain, Viper, Velidreth infamous combo), I argued that the easiest way to handle the situation is that in a PvP environment, players get 1 proc set. I still think that's the best way to go. That way proc gear can still be powerful, provide options unavailable to our classes, and yet not overwhelm other players with multiple procs. Players will still have to use actual abilities and ensure they have well rounded builds since they are relying on said abilities. Some of the proc gear is still too strong and needs to be adjusted, but generally I'm OK dealing with one of them.

This isn't even close to an ideal solution, but it's not too bad of a band-aid until the deeper rooted issues can be addressed. Some of these sets need adjusted. The scaling ZOS is proposing need adjusting. The philosophy that mechanics should proc off health I think needs serious re-evaluation. Lot of stuff needs rethinking

GreenHere

Joy_Division wrote: »

GreenHere wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Just have to laugh at all the people who claim there are easy fixes.

No there isn't. Three times we have had PvP dominated by procs and once this patch hits, that will be the 4th.

If balance was so easy, why is it after 7 years ZOS can't still attain a reasonable balance between the classes in PvP and why is it every 6 or 8 months, the top PvE guilds figure out what's mathematically best and fill their raid with 8 of the same spc?

We just think it's so easy. It wasn't their idea to base procs off stats, it was ours. And when they announced they were doing it, many clapped and cheered and just assumed that such an easy solution to a very complex problem would work itself out.

How exactly do you intend on finding that perfect line of balance where proc sets aren't either totally useless such that nobody wears them (and thus the current Cyrodiil PvP settings) or gamebreaking strong such that they are overbearing (Cyrodiil before procs were turned off)? You aren't going to be able to find that because under the current mechanics of the game that has no soft caps, the better theory-crafters can easily push weapon damage and health stats far beyond what the game orginally. To not make them gamebreaking in the hands of the strongest players, they are going to have to be useless in the vast majority of players because the disparity of power between a good theory-crafted build and one that's not is way wider than should have ever been possible.

And this problem will continue because ZOs still insists on using gear as a selling point. I have zero interest in companions, which is the main feature of this chapter. There isn't anything in it for me, I'm only getting this because I am competitive and I'd rather fork over $50 to get the busted gear they offer than throw my computer out the window trying to fight players who have it.

@Joy_Division , I won't even pretend to be on your level of understanding balance and PvP at large or anything like that, but I would like to ask a knowledgeable long-time ESO PvP goer such as yourself:

Wouldn't just adding a -50% modifier to all Proc Damage into Battle Spirit go miles toward solving the problems?


Procs aren't a problem in PvE as far as I can tell, and if they all universally did half as much damage in PvP than they currently do it kinda seems to me (as an admitted dummy) that most/all the PvP Procpocalypse issues would quickly become non-issues... right? Is there a good (or super obvious) reason this isn't a workable solution that I'm just missing? I've never seen any real counter-argument, not that I recall. And ZOS has never even acknowledged the suggestion as far as I've seen.

I remember people asking for exactly this back in the Morrowind era when Proc Sets were becoming overbearing, but they decided to instead hammer CP & take away crits... then proceeded to later add in Malacath's Band, because ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ lol



As far as your question, "If balance was so easy, why is it after 7 years ZOS can't [...]" well, the forum rules about bashing prevent me from sharing my unfiltered opinion. :P

To put it politely, I don't think we face unsolvable or impossibly complex problems -- but my faith in the people in charge of finding the solutions leaves a lot to be desired. There are a lot of questionable choices sprinkled literally everywhere throughout ESO by many's standards. I don't wanna be Mr Armchair Dev Guy over here, but I can't help but wonder why the more simple / obvious stuff isn't tested on the Test Servers, or at least discussed frankly with the community now and then by the people who make those calls. The communication from ZOS is often poor or entirely lacking, and without it we're kind of left to assume incompetence might be a likely answer for the game's problems.

There's a lot to unpack here. While I do spend most of my time PvPing, that doesn;t mean I don't care about PvE. In fact, I find it frustrating that the vast majority of this proc gear isn't considered viable in PvE. How ridiculous it is that many people in PvE won;t even wear a complete monster set because in their damage parses, two different critical hit chance bonuses is more efficient? That's crazy. And we are stuck with that because years ago, another oversimplified "fix" to procs was implemented: preventing them from critically striking.

Do you know I have been PvEing with the same Maelstrom Destruction staff I got back in 2015? I don't know why ZOs caters procs to PvP when many PvP players don;t even like them, which shuts out most of the community who plays the game (PvE) from effective gear.

Yes, if Battlespirt reduces their effectiveness by 50%, then that will pretty much solve the main objection that players have: fighting against proc sets is too overbearing. But this would make them so ineffective for players who did not perfectly min-max builds that hardly anybody would use them, which pretty much is just re-creating the environment currently in place in cyrodiil where they are disabled. Plus I suspect that such a 50% reduction would not be so easy to apply. ZOS's coding seems to think a set like Clever Alchemist is a "proc set" and thus there would have to be an awful lot of testing and checking to ensure only the "real" procs are affected.

So if we use Battlespirt, I'll still be only using my 2015 Maelstrom staff, PvE parsers will still opt not to use complete Monster sets, people who PvE are disadvantaged because their procs can;t critically hit, and most proc gear in cyrodiil will have their values so small that most people won't use them. I don;t like getting hit with 4 procs that do 20K in a single Global cooldown, but I did go through the trouble of acquiring this gear, I'd like to use it. Preferably, not just in PvP.

Way way way back when procs first came up (2016 with the whole Red Mountain, Viper, Velidreth infamous combo), I argued that the easiest way to handle the situation is that in a PvP environment, players get 1 proc set. I still think that's the best way to go. That way proc gear can still be powerful, provide options unavailable to our classes, and yet not overwhelm other players with multiple procs. Players will still have to use actual abilities and ensure they have well rounded builds since they are relying on said abilities. Some of the proc gear is still too strong and needs to be adjusted, but generally I'm OK dealing with one of them.

This isn't even close to an ideal solution, but it's not too bad of a band-aid until the deeper rooted issues can be addressed.

Thanks for the thoughtful and well-written response! I always enjoy getting your take on things.

I could get onboard with a one-proc-set only rule! That does sound pretty elegant as far as solutions ago. As a weird in-between of casual and hardcore player, I just prefer things that are simple and effective. This scaling solution currently on the PTS is just not buttering my muffin.

YandereGirlfriend

The single proc scheme would work only if the set of "procs" only included direct damage and healing procs while leaving buff- and stat-based "procs" completely alone.

Otherwise, there is extreme danger if "proc" sets are defined in their current absurdly expansive fashion and you would be straight back to the current era of mindless build constriction.

IMO, Nerfing proc damage via Battle Spirit remains the obvious front-runner solution.