Proc Set Rebalance - Issues

the1andonlyskwex

Goregrinder wrote: »

I think the scaling itself is fine, as it forces players to invest less on HP in order to get the same damage out of these sets as they had in Markarth.

I don't really think this is the case. There aren't a ton of trades between HP and SD/WD (particularly SD), because they're sourced from different places. The main way to raise your SD/WD in this game is through jewelry enchants, and they never grant max HP. Instead, people are being forced to sacrifice other things, like mag/stam recovery.

Elo106

Goregrinder wrote: »

I think the scaling itself is fine, as it forces players to invest less on HP in order to get the same damage out of these sets as they had in Markarth. The problem is that there is no cap on these. If having no cap is the intention, then the base damage required to hit their old values should be increased by a lot. It's easy to get 5k weapon damage post CP 2.0. The requirement to hit old damage values needs to be closer to 7-8k weapon damage. Having no cap at that point is fine, because trying to get more WD/SD beyond 8k means you are giving up other things significantly, which should be fine if you are going for a glass cannon build using procs.

Getting 5k weapon damage is easy, but consider getting 5k spell damage. weapon and spell damage cant have the same values, neither can stam and mag. Sets should scale with max stats as well as damage, like skills

Rhaegar75

I fear the day I will have to face a high health high weapon damage warden with Crimson /vomit

fred4

SimonThesis wrote: »

This is a significant buff to pvp ball groups. Uncapped scaling proc sets where every dps in group can get up to 8k Spell damage is extremely broken.

This can't be overstated enough. I think the changes are a bid to make procs relevant in trials, where buffs sourced from other players push up weapon and spell damage. The same will be possible in PvP. It's a kick in the teeth to solo players, especially magicka solo players other than sorc.

SidraWillowsky

Rhaegar75 wrote: »

I fear the day I will have to face a high health high weapon damage warden with Crimson /vomit

If things were to go live as-is, you'd have to do that the second U30 hits. My tooltips in the PTS are UGLY... with even moderate skill,, I think people could achieve actual immortality in PvP. It's going to be a nightmare. .

Sahidom

Anyone checked to see whether Bloodthirsty counts towards the wd/SD target number for effect i.e. as the target gets lower in health the proc set gets stronger

Anyron wrote: »

Canned_Apples wrote: »

Well.. we’ll know in a week if they intend to do anything about it.
I can’t play bgs because of all the cheese and now it’s going to get worse and infest cyrodiil too??

​Last patch they made changes to armor, light and heavy got few buffs but nerfs too.. Light armor user gets more incoming damage while also having less base armor than medium does.
And they didnt change anything. Do you expect change this time?

Your almost better to slot the new conquerer set with a sharpened weapon and go full heavy on a mag character. Toss on the new Gaze of Sithis, remember when Thunderbug and Storm set combo was a pain point since all the person had to do was stand still and heal? Now it's Crimson and Leeching, more so than it is now. Well see how ZOS receives the feedback next PTS notes release.

Tyrobag

Something gets nerfed into uselessness for mag characters, and people ask for more nerfs. Because of course they do.

Most properly built magicka characters (unless you're doing some gimmicky thing, which isn't actually sustainable) can only possibly reach 5k spell damage when fully buffed - and that's still under the value required to keep the sets at their current power, which was already too weak compared to raw stat sets in 90% of cases for PvE. How about instead of making further blanket nerfs and sweeping changes that hurt everyone they just have battle spirit reduce proc set power (we know they can do this, since they blocked them in PvP already), then fix the scaling so it can actually scale right in PvE.

In the end this change seems to have had the exact opposite of the intended effect. PvPers can make their proc sets stronger, whereas mag Dps in PvE can't use them at all.

amir412

Bump, this is truly concerning.

Firstmep

Goregrinder wrote: »

I think the scaling itself is fine, as it forces players to invest less on HP in order to get the same damage out of these sets as they had in Markarth. The problem is that there is no cap on these. If having no cap is the intention, then the base damage required to hit their old values should be increased by a lot. It's easy to get 5k weapon damage post CP 2.0. The requirement to hit old damage values needs to be closer to 7-8k weapon damage. Having no cap at that point is fine, because trying to get more WD/SD beyond 8k means you are giving up other things significantly, which should be fine if you are going for a glass cannon build using procs.

Exept it doesn't, you can go 64 points into hp and still rock 7k wpd, and get more dmg on your procs.
If you don't think that's viable, my stamplar on pts literally did that, and it's not even the best class for this type of build.

olsborg

Decimus wrote: »

Needless to say this requires a lot of attention as it seems to be contrary to what was supposed to happen according to Combat Preview post quoted above.

Yes! Thank you for posting this @Decimus This is my #1 concern too, I didnt rly play before the test started because of all this proccmeta, but if Update 7 just keeps making things worse...then I choose not to play next patch either.

For me personally I would love for most proccs that deal dmg or heal to be gone from pvp, I want it to be mostly skillbased, proccs arent. Thats likely not gonna happen, but as long as proccs are so OP compared to everything else in a build...yea not gonna partake in that.

Can only hope ZOS can realize...there are alot of players likeminded as me.

doesurmindglow

Based on some of my own testing on PTS I'm kinda inclined to agree with the sentiment of the OP. It is extremely easy to get to and in most cases exceed the damage allowed by proc sets on live; and worse still, a couple clearly out of line proc sets allow you to do so by running very high max health pools.

Offensive abilities/procs should not scale with max health. It doesn't make sense: you get both survivability and damage, which is exactly what was called out as the "problem" we're trying to fix. The intention as I understand it is to ask players to make intentional choices and trade-offs, where gaining offensive capability comes at the expense of defensive capability and vice versa.

The change as I've experimented on Crimson is especially alarming. I have changed all my glyphs on my warden tank to health, stacking to 60k or so HP, and my now hitting my friends for upwards of 17k damage on a single proc, and then healing for that entire value.

It's obvious if this goes live and I run this set up, I'll be virtually unkillable, especially to players without access to the DLC and the same set. To me, that's a problem.

olsborg

BohnT2 wrote: »

This can't be stressed enough, the current iteration of proc scaling on PTS is a huge step backwards.

1. increase the required stats by a lot
2. cap the proc damage at their current values on live servers

Yes and yes. It should never, under any circumstances be possible to reach higher tooltips on proccssets then they are on live, ever.

doesurmindglow

Here's two screenshots to further illustrate my concern:




Nearly 70k health. And I can proc for almost 15k. And heal for that amount also, plus another 14k from my (nerfed) Arctic Blast. In PVP there will be few realistically viable alternatives to this build.

The only problems I see are a lack of penetration and sustain, but I'm not really sure that'll matter too much, especially if this becomes a thing large groups are running.

MashmalloMan

I have to say no to adding hard caps or reducing the base values of the sets, the best solution to absurd scaling in a min/max scenario is to not make the scaling linear.. make it have diminishing returns.

Also, don't make it 1 stat, it should be a combination weapon/stam or mag/spell.

As an example. Let's say the threshold is 6k weapon damage still.

• 1.5k weapon damage (25% to threshold) it does 40%.
• 3k weapon damage (50% to threshold) it does 70%.
• 4.5k weapon damage (75% to threshold) it does 85%.
• 6k weapon damage = 100%.
• 7.5k weapon damage (25% over threshold) it does 110%.
• 9k weapon damage (50% over threshold) it does 115%.

This will allow procs to still be usable for lower or under geared players, reduce the extreme power they could get in stacking scenarios, reduce the gap between mag and stam builds all the while continuing to allow PvE to thrive with build diversity due to the potential of scaling procs higher while not completely destroying PvP.

If the threshold is too low following those 2 changes, bump it up to 7k or whatever value they figure out for a combined total between Stam and weapon damage.

Tommy_The_Gun

The other problem I can see are health recovery changes in PvP. 50% reducion makes the stat useless, especially when compared to healing proc sets. Even if healing is also reduced in Cyro, healing sets still are clear winner vs sets that provide health recovery bonus.

Same for health recovery glyphs. It is way better to run Arcane / robust with other glyph rather than infused health recovery, because if you have a healing set, max stam/mag bonus provides more healing boost (which also increases dmg of your skills btw) than a health recovery would.
Also healing done / taken (Ritual mundus or gear set bonus) increase healing from proc sets, but does not affect health recovery...

Wolfchild07

This will be a buff if you're one of the <5% meta chasers. This will be a nerf if you're a filthy casual.

Proc sets should have set amounts so they can be balanced easier and not buffed by stats.

Imagine if you had a health stat on armour (1-4 pieces from sets) that was buffed just for having higher health.

olsborg

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

The other problem I can see are health recovery changes in PvP. 50% reducion makes the stat useless, especially when compared to healing proc sets. Even if healing is also reduced in Cyro, healing sets still are clear winner vs sets that provide health recovery bonus.

Same for health recovery glyphs. It is way better to run Arcane / robust with other glyph rather than infused health recovery, because if you have a healing set, max stam/mag bonus provides more healing boost (which also increases dmg of your skills btw) than a health recovery would.
Also healing done / taken (Ritual mundus or gear set bonus) increase healing from proc sets, but does not affect health recovery...

I agree that the flat 50% nerf to hp recovery was the wrong way to fix these "hp recovery builds" in cyrodiil, there was plenty of us who enjoyed focusing a little into hp recovery just to get a bit more survivability in hard pressed situations, im talking 1500-2500 hp recovery, if you just flat cut it in half, its gonna hurt everyone, not just the builds that used 4000-6000 hp recovery..wich is the problem.

I suggest softcaps, from the days of old. Anything over 2500 gets cut in half, hell gets cut by 75% even, just dont make the entire stat useless unless you focus 100% solely into it on your build.

StarOfElyon

I hate proc sets.

Decimus

Here's my take: if they want to reduce the impact of (yes, nerf) stacking "free damage" from proc sets, why not introduce diminishing returns instead of introducing complicated scaling that seems to be almost impossible to balance?


Keep the values as they are right now on Live, but stacking two proc sets would give you a -20% damage modifier on all procs, stacking three proc sets would give you a -40% damage modifier and so on.


Simple solution that can even be tied to Battle Spirit if unnecessary in PvE.

fred4

Decimus wrote: »

Here's my take: if they want to reduce the impact of (yes, nerf) stacking "free damage" from proc sets, why not introduce diminishing returns instead of introducing complicated scaling that seems to be almost impossible to balance?


Keep the values as they are right now on Live, but stacking two proc sets would give you a -20% damage modifier on all procs, stacking three proc sets would give you a -40% damage modifier and so on.


Simple solution that can even be tied to Battle Spirit if unnecessary in PvE.

I would be much happier with that than with what they're doing.

katorga

They could be planning to remove the free 1K weapon/spell damage they added last patch. Then you are going to have a very difficult time reaching the proc damage threshold.

ealdwin

fred4 wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

Here's my take: if they want to reduce the impact of (yes, nerf) stacking "free damage" from proc sets, why not introduce diminishing returns instead of introducing complicated scaling that seems to be almost impossible to balance?


Keep the values as they are right now on Live, but stacking two proc sets would give you a -20% damage modifier on all procs, stacking three proc sets would give you a -40% damage modifier and so on.


Simple solution that can even be tied to Battle Spirit if unnecessary in PvE.

I would be much happier with that than with what they're doing.

Agreed. As long as it was implemented not using the same definition of proc-set as used in the Cyrodiil tests, and rather focused on only those sets that dealt damage. That way you wouldn't suddenly find yourself with -20% on Overwhelming Surge or your Monster Helm if you combined it with a set like Seducer's or Light of Cyrodiil.

It could also be implemented for healing sets, so stacking two healing sets resulted in a -20% healing modifier, and 3 would give you -40% and so on.

But, keep the healing and damage modifier's separate so stacking Winter's Embrace and Overwhelming Surge wouldn't effect each other's strengths. But, Winter's Embrace + Overwhelming Surge + Grothdarr would result in a -20% damage modifier on OS and Grothdarr.

Either that or having all healing/damage sets scale from the combination of Mag/Stam + SD/WD would be more welcome. Or even just a flat 20% reduction to damage and heals from procs through battle spirit would be okay.

Ocelot9x

How to solve the proc problem: battle spirit should have a line saying "reduce the effectiveness of set damaging/healing abilities by 50%".
Make Procs crit again to lower the ceiling in pve/not make totally useless in pvp so people can still be carried.
Boom, fixed.
Obviously is too late for that and after the amazing pvp we had those few months we will have another unbearable meta

katorga

The following sets now scale off your Max Health:
Crimson Twilight' damage
Frozen Watcher's damage
Leeching Plate's damage

They put all this work in to control proc sets, micromanage what buffs which set, and undo it all with the above.

Faded

StarOfElyon wrote: »

I hate proc sets.

Unfortunately the devs love them.

kalunte

the set listing needs an overlook.

- any dmg proc should scale with max SP/WD
- any healing proc should scale with max stamina/magicka
- if a set have two effects, then each part should scale with respective stats, take crimson for exemple: the dmg would scale with wd/sp and the healing part would scale with max stam/mag.

i know there are some fancy build that will allow to max out some stats, but you shouldnt have everything with one stat.
and i'm not talking about procsets alone.

Stam based char are considered OP because they have max stam allow both more dmg done (skill scaling) and more mitigation (block/dodgeroll), on the other side Mag based char gets everything with max magicka: dmg, healing, shield (+ it regens when you're blocking while stam doesnt).

beside managing the threshold numbers, they should also think about making stats more specified so that you have to manage them properly and not stack only max stat X/max regen X and do everything with just that. if you have to split between stat W / X / Y or Z and associated regens it wont be that easy to cheese.

Tommy_The_Gun

kalunte wrote: »

the set listing needs an overlook.

- any dmg proc should scale with max SP/WD
- any healing proc should scale with max stamina/magicka
- if a set have two effects, then each part should scale with respective stats, take crimson for exemple: the dmg would scale with wd/sp and the healing part would scale with max stam/mag.

Wouldn't it be better to make all healing aspect of the proc sets to scale with max health ?

I mean, if max mag/stam is going to be what it is scaling from, then as a result you will have a good "free" healing from sets, while specking into stat boosting your dmg output (as max offensive stats do).

If it would scale with max health, then builds that spec into dmg would have to hybridize in order to heave decent "free" healing, while if one would decide to make a tanky high health build - they would have great survivability, but 0 dmg potential.

As for the sets that deal dmg & heal - dmg dealt should scale with weapon / spell dmg - but % healing should scale with max health.
For example:
- if you have a very tanky build and you run Crimson, you get "100%" of the damage done as healing, but your dmg dealt by this set will be weak.
- If you would run high weapon / spell dmg build, Crimson would deal more dmg, but healing % would be lower (like 50% for example, since your max health is lower).

Derra

BohnT2 wrote: »

The current values are too low, 5.8k weapon damage sin't hard to reach especially with the 1k weapon damage we've got last patch.
However at the same time for magicka specs it's incredibly hard to reach this number leading to a big discrepancy between magicka and stamina builds and proc sets.

^
Why would i want to play as a magica char next patch.
The distribution of stats with the current scaling blatantly favors stam builds to the point where 3 - 4 procc stamina builds can gain damage while magica builds doing the same will lose dmg.

relentless_turnip

Derra wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

The current values are too low, 5.8k weapon damage sin't hard to reach especially with the 1k weapon damage we've got last patch.
However at the same time for magicka specs it's incredibly hard to reach this number leading to a big discrepancy between magicka and stamina builds and proc sets.

^
Why would i want to play as a magica char next patch.
The distribution of stats with the current scaling blatantly favors stam builds to the point where 3 - 4 procc stamina builds can gain damage while magica builds doing the same will lose dmg.

Well you do have up to 6573 pen passively.... I personally think they should scale with your highest source of damage whether that is your WD, sd or Max resource pool. They definetly should require more than zos are currently proposing. I think at least another 1000 WD/SD or another 5k max resource. No sets with offensive power should scale with health imo.

TankHealz2015

doesurmindglow wrote: »

Here's two screenshots to further illustrate my concern:




Nearly 70k health. And I can proc for almost 15k. And heal for that amount also, plus another 14k from my (nerfed) Arctic Blast. In PVP there will be few realistically viable alternatives to this build.

The only problems I see are a lack of penetration and sustain, but I'm not really sure that'll matter too much, especially if this becomes a thing large groups are running.

Please, could you post exactly your build /how you achieved those stats?

I could use the help.