Normal and Veteran Overland

orion_1981usub17_ESO · April 2021

But you just proved my point, lots of folks had to go look it up and doshia was one a the biggest learning curves in the early game. The game did teach people. And yet you still didn't question what more you could be getting until someone said a mean thing to you. The game does teach, we all learned some of us were simply more receptive and better prepared for the education. Others are stubborn or need their hand held for them with a big neon sign that says press X now.

You can never go back to that point, you mastered it, they can never make doshia hard again as she was at the games start. They can never make overland as engaging as you wish it to be. Your beyond that now and you need to accept that and grow. Now matter what they do to the mobs, make them trial mobs, you won't get the same feeling.

Iccotak · April 2021

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

Wow someone must have the worse luck with others, I rarely see anyone upset that you helped them improve. Maybe you did it wrong? And I do not hold an elitist opinion of anyone wishing for veteran overland content, quite the opposite. I believe those that desire this are secretly afraid of social interaction and self improvement... those are not the skills of an "elite" player.

And no, in game is not where you learn about mmos... you learn mmos on websites dedicated to that mmo. Long ago there was the tamriel foundry where folks like myself speculated for years before the first beta. I know this seems countertuitive but it's not new for mmo games where most the information is found elsewhere.

Imagine if everyone simply stayed in their comfort zones.

Uh No.

Like I said previously, I regularly participated in endgame content. It’s a goal I made to get stronger and get better in game - and I have no issue playing those activities.

Many people who have criticized the state of Overland also have no issue with endgame content.

There is no secret insecurity or underlying agenda.

I find the gameplay for much of overland, and definitely the main story, to be so unengaging, boring, and immersion breaking that it takes all my enjoyment out of the story experience.

- Overland has its issues with all enemies being the same difficulty, all equally incompetent & incapable.
- Main Story problem is that it doesn’t live up to its own hype.

We’d like to be able to enjoy this Solo Questing content. Perhaps even enjoy it with one friend.

That’s what we’ve asked for.

Thechuckage · April 2021

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

@chuckage

the progression from overland is normal and natural because we all did it through the original play through. I remember questing through stone falls and advancing to fungal grotto. I remember mastering those mechanics and advancing to mazzateum.

The main storyline didn't lead to the dungeon, the fighters guild did. Regardless it was not required to move on to Deshaan. Originally there was no GF, which left a bunch of people out of the dungeons because we didn't want to form a PUG.

If you cleared the dungeons in the order they were released/by zones IE Fungal, Darkshade etc then that would be natural progression as they become more demanding as you move further into the alliance zone.

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

You can't go backwards, you cant unlearn experience. The path is forward, to master greater difficulty and that path is natural. Folks wishing to capture the new difficulty and place it in old path ways just hope in vain to recapture the magic of the natural learning progression.

So someone is having too easy of a time and they move onto the harder overland. That would be a natural path. I find your assessment that it is a matter of "chasing nostalgia" inaccurate.

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

I assure you, beyond the "I want leet rewards for easy work crowd" (and they exist, they are here as always), there are two other crowds, nostalgia goggles crowd that want the same rush of beating molag bal again as they did the first time, or the I'm so bored having done everything in the game and in life crowd. None of them will ever be happy.

Of course there are people who want max rewards for minimum input, but attempting to paint a large part of the opposition with that brush is flat out disingenuous. Same as trying to paint us as nostalgia chasers.

Now anyone experienced who has ran an alt has noticed you can easily be a walking woodchipper with little effort. Having the option to face foes with a bit resistance and umph to them would make the experience more enjoyable. And no, this is not looking thru rose tinted glasses. I know the stories, there are no surprises left. But I would like to have more resistance than a few cobwebs strung across the path.

Iccotak · April 2021

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

But you just proved my point, lots of folks had to go look it up and doshia was one a the biggest learning curves in the early game. The game did teach people. And yet you still didn't question what more you could be getting until someone said a mean thing to you. The game does teach, we all learned some of us were simply more receptive and better prepared for the education. Others are stubborn or need their hand held for them with a big neon sign that says press X now.

You can never go back to that point, you mastered it, they can never make doshia hard again as she was at the games start. They can never make overland as engaging as you wish it to be. Your beyond that now and you need to accept that and grow. Now matter what they do to the mobs, make them trial mobs, you won't get the same feeling.

So if I master a veteran dungeon, does that make the content no longer engaging?

The argument is that as soon as I get good at something, I will then therefore become bored of it.

There are plenty of games that prove that wrong, this game itself proves that sentiment wrong.

There can still be engaging gameplay despite player mastery, in fact the player getting better at the game and having an understanding could actually serve to keep them engaged.

Because right now I think there is a better compromise between “starter island easy“ vs “endgame hard core”

BlueRaven · April 2021

I find it funny that this thread is arguing for a harder overland, saying how so many players find it too easy. And that they want more complex overland mobs.

Yet at the same time there is another thread arguing that overland mobs have too many annoying abilities, in this case snares.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/570105/remove-all-snares-from-the-game#latest

And that mobs should no longer have snares. AND that thread’s OP has more likes then this one.

So we have two threads asking for overland to go in two different directions in terms of difficulty, and the one asking for easier overland is more popular.

Personally I don’t think it should be more difficult, AND I think the amount of snares mobs have currently is appropriate.

Thechuckage · April 2021

SilverBride wrote: »

Thechuckage wrote: »

@SilverBride Stories need weight. If the hero never has to struggle, never has to overcome challenges then it is a poor story. "Going to save the world from an evil god" loses all meaning when the difficulty curve makes the Great Plains look mountainous by comparison.

I don't need to struggle to enjoy the story. In fact I find the opposite to be true. I can only believe I am really a hero if I am strong enough to crush my enemies.

The story is fine just as it is.

Are you familiar with the Heroes Journey narrative? (For anyone not familiar) It is extremely common in writing and story telling. And not in the modern sense. This predates (AFAIK) Greek and other ancient civilizations. The Hero must overcome some obstacle, trial, enemy what have you. Regardless of how powerful the hero is, the struggle remains.

Hercules( a demigod for cripes sake) taking on the 7 tasks which challenged him greatly. John Henry literally killing himself to beat a drilling machine. Spiderman going from weak nerd to superpowers and learning to control them, himself and take on new responsibilities. The common thread is they all have to work to succeed.

Now if you specifically SilverBride enjoy just being super OP. Fine, but the centuries of story telling has shown people like the hero to work for their success. Not have it handed to them.

Thechuckage · April 2021

BlueRaven wrote: »

I find it funny that this thread is arguing for a harder overland, saying how so many players find it too easy. And that they want more complex overland mobs.

Yet at the same time there is another thread arguing that overland mobs have too many annoying abilities, in this case snares.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/570105/remove-all-snares-from-the-game#latest

And that mobs should no longer have snares. AND that thread’s OP has more likes then this one.

So we have two threads asking for overland to go in two different directions in terms of difficulty, and the one asking for easier overland is more popular.

Personally I don’t think it should be more difficult, AND I think the amount of snares mobs have currently is appropriate.

You mean there are multiple view points?

Say it isn't so!

You have demonstrated three in your single post. Could you demonstrate a time when there has been a mass consensus for a feature or direction for the game to move? You'll pardon me if I don't hold my breath.

BlueRaven · April 2021

Thechuckage wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

I find it funny that this thread is arguing for a harder overland, saying how so many players find it too easy. And that they want more complex overland mobs.

Yet at the same time there is another thread arguing that overland mobs have too many annoying abilities, in this case snares.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/570105/remove-all-snares-from-the-game#latest

And that mobs should no longer have snares. AND that thread’s OP has more likes then this one.

So we have two threads asking for overland to go in two different directions in terms of difficulty, and the one asking for easier overland is more popular.

Personally I don’t think it should be more difficult, AND I think the amount of snares mobs have currently is appropriate.

You mean there are multiple view points? Say it isn't so!

You have demonstrated three in your single post. Could you demonstrate a time when there has been a mass consensus for a feature or direction for the game to move? You'll pardon me if I don't hold my breath.

Yes. That the green CP tree have less slottable passives.

Arwende · April 2021

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

I often ponder the motivations those asking for vet content overland. In most cases they just want rewards from harder content in the easier content zones. But I don't feel this is the true deep motivations. I wonder if these players simply fear their inability to play harder group content, and instead of self improvement in game play and social interactions, they hide back in the cave of solo play, away from their fellow gamers.

Self improvement in gameplay is a goal for many people, whether they're playing solo or in a group. But with the lack of difficult solo content a lot of people are then forced to decide if they want to try getting involved in group content or keep banging their head against a wall and falling asleep to the ridiculously easy overland. I'm not saying people aren't afraid of the harder content, but generally the reason they stay away from group content is because they have a preference for doing content solo or possibly even undermanned. As far as the people that are afraid to do harder content go, a lot of them are afraid of it because the game hasn't taught them in it's overland content, which makes up the majority of the game. They haven't learned to adapt or advance past the easy mode, and so when they do finally jump into the hard stuff, they have no idea what's going on. Either that or they never get involved because they couldn't get past the stage of light attacking everything. Overland unfortunately doesn't do a good job of teaching players how to improve.
Finally, those of us who are pro vet overland, we are simply looking for the option for a more engaging experience in 80% of the game's content.

SilverBride · April 2021

Thechuckage wrote: »

Are you familiar with the Heroes Journey narrative? (For anyone not familiar) It is extremely common in writing and story telling. And not in the modern sense. This predates (AFAIK) Greek and other ancient civilizations. The Hero must overcome some obstacle, trial, enemy what have you. Regardless of how powerful the hero is, the struggle remains.

Hercules( a demigod for cripes sake) taking on the 7 tasks which challenged him greatly. John Henry literally killing himself to beat a drilling machine. Spiderman going from weak nerd to superpowers and learning to control them, himself and take on new responsibilities. The common thread is they all have to work to succeed.

Now if you specifically SilverBride enjoy just being super OP. Fine, but the centuries of story telling has shown people like the hero to work for their success. Not have it handed to them.

That is all interesting from a story telling perspective, but it doesn't carry over to ESO. It's apples and oranges.

There is not enough interest in veteran overland to justify something that very few players would ever use. And since so few would be using it, it would soon become a ghost town. No one will be able to progress in a veteran difficulty overland with no one to group with for world bosses and harrowstorms and dragons etc.. And there would be no way you could solo them. Pretty soon everyone would be gone.

All that time and work for nothing.

orion_1981usub17_ESO · April 2021

I hate to break it to you but you don't seem to appreciates the game. Overland is not 80% of the game, not even close. The overland content your focusing on is three things:
quest,
world bosses,
public dungeon.

Of game content these are the three easiest facets of the game, and no matter the zone they are relatively the same thing.

But the game is a mulitfacted that you fail to appreciate.
Instanced content:
Faction quest
dungeon/vet
Trials/ vet

Pvp content:
Cyro,
BGs
Imp city
Dueling

Social content
Housing
Fashion
Collectibles
Guilds,
Mercantile
RP.

The game is huge and you'll never learn and you'll always be afraid if you don't step outside you comfort content. And look when I was doing normal trials for the first times they took hours of explaining and even watching YouTube videos pre run to learn the mechanics, but the folks were there for me every step of the way. Most People aren't some scary shadows trying to mentally hurt folks with elitist attitudes of git gud, they want to play...WITH YOU! And I feel folks would love it if they just gave other folks a chance.

Either way, difficulty is there but you have to go to it, it's not gonna come to you.

CP5 · April 2021

SilverBride wrote: »

Thechuckage wrote: »

Are you familiar with the Heroes Journey narrative? (For anyone not familiar) It is extremely common in writing and story telling. And not in the modern sense. This predates (AFAIK) Greek and other ancient civilizations. The Hero must overcome some obstacle, trial, enemy what have you. Regardless of how powerful the hero is, the struggle remains.

Hercules( a demigod for cripes sake) taking on the 7 tasks which challenged him greatly. John Henry literally killing himself to beat a drilling machine. Spiderman going from weak nerd to superpowers and learning to control them, himself and take on new responsibilities. The common thread is they all have to work to succeed.

Now if you specifically SilverBride enjoy just being super OP. Fine, but the centuries of story telling has shown people like the hero to work for their success. Not have it handed to them.

That is all interesting from a story telling perspective, but it doesn't carry over to ESO. It's apples and oranges.

There is not enough interest in veteran overland to justify something that very few players would ever use. And since so few would be using it, it would soon become a ghost town. No one will be able to progress in a veteran difficulty overland with no one to group with for world bosses and harrowstorms and dragons etc.. And there would be no way you could solo them. Pretty soon everyone would be gone.

All that time and work for nothing.

ESO is a video game, being engaging for the people playing it is applicable. Having a narrative that on one hand says this guys a threat, but form a gameplay perspective says hes a chump, either the narrative failed, the gameplay failed, or you play the role of a demi god. The first two options are a disconnect between the game (which eso is a video game) and the narrative, and the last is boring for many players. And clearly by people continuing to ask there is enough interest in this.

And orion, some people want to actually practice to some meaningful capacity before going in front of a group and you can't bank on the kind hearts of randoms to welcome people with open arms. It isn't the job of players to teach players the bare bones basics, things like trial fights and builds sure, but things like how to block, or move out of red, the game should be able to teach them these and if it doesn't that is a failure of game design.

Faulgor · April 2021

It's so comforting to know that even in these uncertain times, there will always be a thread on the front page asking for higher difficulty overland.

Keep it up, never stop dreaming! Maybe one day. ZOS will actually listen.

Arwende · April 2021

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

I hate to break it to you but you don't seem to appreciates the game. Overland is not 80% of the game, not even close. The overland content your focusing on is three things:
quest,
world bosses,
public dungeon.

Of game content these are the three easiest facets of the game, and no matter the zone they are relatively the same thing.

But the game is a mulitfacted that you fail to appreciate.
Instanced content:
Faction quest
dungeon/vet
Trials/ vet

Pvp content:
Cyro,
BGs
Imp city
Dueling

Social content
Housing
Fashion
Collectibles
Guilds,
Mercantile
RP.

The game is huge and you'll never learn and you'll always be afraid if you don't step outside you comfort content. And look when I was doing vet normals for the first times they took hours of explaining and even watching YouTube videos pre run to learn the mechanics. Most People aren't some scary shadows trying to mentally hurt folks with elitist attitudes of git gud, they want to play...WITH YOU! And I feel folks would love it if they just gave other folks a chance.

I have done all of this content you listed. I've given trials a go, vet dungeons, and solo arenas. I've pvp'd a LOT in both cyrodiil and battlegrounds and even got emperor. I used to RP, and now I'm currently in a trading guild. I've fully decorated multiple houses, played dress up with my main and alts regularly, completed holiday questing events, and so on. How exactly am I not appreciating the game if I've done all of this content you listed? The content I haven't done that I would "appreciate" a lot more would be the overland content if it had some level of difficulty added to it.
Social content is mostly player made, RP especially. That is not content made by the devs. I'm talking about content specifically made for the game.
The game is huge, yes. It's largest part consists of the overland content.

orion_1981usub17_ESO · April 2021

You need to understand that there are mechanical limitations to the difficulty that a solo encounter can experience. A single player only has soo many options and mechanics and are bound by their APM capacity. There is a point that no single player can pass.

This is why the most difficult content will always in group setting because you can increase the mechanics of the game exponentially for each player. Mechanics are what make difficulty. A dungeon can have four players doing four objectives. And a trial can have twelve. No solo player in my knowledge can solo a normal trial.

This is what I mean by game progression. You progress by become part of team capable of doing content that you can not accomplish on your own.

orion_1981usub17_ESO · April 2021

@Arwende my apologies, I thought you were talking for other people, since you last post referenced other gamers fearful of harder content a few times. I too was referencing these hypothetical players... sorry if you didn't register that. But if you too have "beaten" the game. Then you should understand the severe limitations of how to create difficult open world content that someone level 3 can still beat if they wonder into the fight.

SilverBride · April 2021

CP5 wrote: »

It isn't the job of players to teach players the bare bones basics, things like trial fights and builds sure, but things like how to block, or move out of red, the game should be able to teach them these and if it doesn't that is a failure of game design.

Actually it is. I have played several MMOs and not a single one of them taught group mechanics in their version of overland.

ESO isn't supposed to hold our hands and show us every single thing we will need to know for dungeons and trials because they want us to learn these things ourselves.

One of my fondest gaming memories was doing a new raid boss in another game that there wasn't much info online about yet. But we went in anyway, and by trial and error and many many wipes we finally figured it out. And not one single player said "This game failed us by not preparing us for this raid boss while we were still questing and leveling."

Arwende · April 2021

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

@Arwende my apologies, I thought you were talking for other people, since you last post referenced other gamers fearful of harder content a few times. I too was referencing these hypothetical players... sorry if you didn't register that. But if you too have "beaten" the game. Then you should understand the severe limitations of how to create difficult open world content that someone level 3 can still beat if they wonder into the fight.

Nowhere in my previous post was I discussing other games nor talking for other people. When I mentioned 'other people' I was giving examples of situations I've seen. I never said I've "beaten" the game either. I just listed the content I had completed because you said I didn't appreciate the game. I also said that I haven't finished the overland content.

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

Then you should understand the severe limitations of how to create difficult open world content that someone level 3 can still beat if they wonder into the fight.

This is exactly why people are asking for the option for vet overland, that way the normal overland can remain unchanged.

CP5 · April 2021

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

You need to understand that there are mechanical limitations to the difficulty that a solo encounter can experience. A single player only has soo many options and mechanics and are bound by their APM capacity. There is a point that no single player can pass.

This is why the most difficult content will always in group setting because you can increase the mechanics of the game exponentially for each player. Mechanics are what make difficulty. A dungeon can have four players doing four objectives. And a trial can have twelve. No solo player in my knowledge can solo a normal trial.

This is what I mean by game progression. You progress by become part of team capable of doing content that you can not accomplish on your own.

Sure the complexity one player can manage is less than what twelve could, but anything more than enemies who literally stand around for 6s intervals doing nothing is an improvement.

SilverBride wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

It isn't the job of players to teach players the bare bones basics, things like trial fights and builds sure, but things like how to block, or move out of red, the game should be able to teach them these and if it doesn't that is a failure of game design.

Actually it is. I have played several MMOs and not a single one of them taught group mechanics in their version of overland.

ESO isn't supposed to hold our hands and show us every single thing we will need to know for dungeons and trials because they want us to learn these things ourselves.

One of my fondest gaming memories was doing a new raid boss in another game that there wasn't much info online about yet. But we went in anyway, and by trial and error and many many wipes we finally figured it out. And not one single player said "This game failed us by not preparing us for this raid boss while we were still questing and leveling."

Not group mechanics, basics one step higher than walking. The ability to block heavy attacks, the combat awareness to walk out of aoe's, the foresight to use food, the capacity to maintain a single dot to add damage to an enemy or sustain a single buff. I'm not asking for amazing skills, I'm asking for the place for players to actually practice these core, bare bones abilities that are applicable regardless of role. This, is what overland does nothing for, this is where it fails. You need none of this to progress through any of overland because all of overland is a starter zone, and every main quest line is set to this bar.

orion_1981usub17_ESO · April 2021

Hmmm... so listing hypothetical situations and experiences of other gamers is not speaking for other gamers? And having done all the content is not the entire game. You might forgive me for not understand your point of view with such confusing terms you use.

Overland content isn't gated by level anymore its for everyone ALL THE TIME! But let's for theory sake overland vet content did exist. What level of mob difficulty would be required to make the story engaging and meaningful? Vet fungal grotto level? Vet direfrost? Vet falkreach hold? Vet castle thorn? Truth is, most Vet mobs are still a joke that take a couple of moments longer to kill.

So let's go to the bosses, do you want Vet lord warden for your delve boss or maybe Vet scp hm fight for the quest boss in stonefalls.

But wait there is a place that does have relatively the same difficulty... its called Vet arena, is that the level of difficulty that you desire every quest to have in overland? I mean that is the pinnacle of Vet solo content.

Just trying yo understand what actual difficulty folks want for chasing down lost guar.

Sylvermynx · April 2021

"orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

Just trying yo understand what actual difficulty folks want for chasing down lost guar.

"Dusty! Damn it - where are you son? Please come home - here's your dinner...."

Eh;. Sorry, couldn't resist.

SilverBride · April 2021

CP5 wrote: »

Not group mechanics, basics one step higher than walking. The ability to block heavy attacks, the combat awareness to walk out of aoe's, the foresight to use food, the capacity to maintain a single dot to add damage to an enemy or sustain a single buff. I'm not asking for amazing skills, I'm asking for the place for players to actually practice these core, bare bones abilities that are applicable regardless of role. This, is what overland does nothing for, this is where it fails. You need none of this to progress through any of overland because all of overland is a starter zone, and every main quest line is set to this bar.

It's a pretty widely known concept in gaming that you use food, potions and elixirs, or other similar ways to buff. And it is basic intuition that you don't stand in fire, or red circles, and try to block or avoid attacks.

If there is an Ogrim staring you down and you see a wide red line appear in front of him pointing to you, and you fail to move out of the way or block, you will learn very quickly not to just stand there the next time. How is that not teaching you something?

Sylvermynx · April 2021

SilverBride wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

Not group mechanics, basics one step higher than walking. The ability to block heavy attacks, the combat awareness to walk out of aoe's, the foresight to use food, the capacity to maintain a single dot to add damage to an enemy or sustain a single buff. I'm not asking for amazing skills, I'm asking for the place for players to actually practice these core, bare bones abilities that are applicable regardless of role. This, is what overland does nothing for, this is where it fails. You need none of this to progress through any of overland because all of overland is a starter zone, and every main quest line is set to this bar.

It's a pretty widely known concept in gaming that you use food, potions and elixirs, or other similar ways to buff. And it is basic intuition that you don't stand in fire, or red circles, and try to block or avoid attacks.

If there is an Ogrim staring you down and you see a wide red line appear in front of him pointing to you, and you fail to move out of the way or block, you will learn very quickly not to just stand there the next time. How is that not teaching you something?

*giggling* Yep. But - y'know.... with 750+ ms ping.... I never actually manage to "move out of red" before.... Usually I just block, and feel REALLY lucky if it works.

Arwende · April 2021

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

Overland content isn't gated by level anymore its for everyone ALL THE TIME! But let's for theory sake overland vet content did exist. What level of mob difficulty would be required to make the story engaging and meaningful? Vet fungal grotto level? Vet direfrost? Vet falkreach hold? Vet castle thorn? Truth is, most Vet mobs are still a joke that take a couple of moments longer to kill.

So let's go to the bosses, do you want Vet lord warden for your delve boss or maybe Vet scp hm fight for the quest boss in stonefalls.

But wait there is a place that does have relatively the same difficulty... its called Vet arena, is that the level of difficulty that you desire every quest to have in overland? I mean that is the pinnacle of Vet solo content.

Just trying yo understand what actual difficulty folks want for chasing down lost guar.

Something a little more intense than pressing a single ability on an enemy while they take 6 seconds to charge up an attack that feels like someone threw a napkin at me would already be an upgrade. I'll take any one of those options you listed.

Arwende · April 2021

SilverBride wrote: »

It's a pretty widely known concept in gaming that you use food, potions and elixirs, or other similar ways to buff. And it is basic intuition that you don't stand in fire, or red circles, and try to block or avoid attacks.

If there is an Ogrim staring you down and you see a wide red line appear in front of him pointing to you, and you fail to move out of the way or block, you will learn very quickly not to just stand there the next time. How is that not teaching you something?

It isn't teaching, because you can still get away with ignoring the mechanics. How is anyone going to learn anything if the game isn't telling them they're doing something wrong or punishing them? You can stand in everything, never dodge roll, never block and you'll still breeze through the overland.

SilverBride · April 2021

Arwende wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

It's a pretty widely known concept in gaming that you use food, potions and elixirs, or other similar ways to buff. And it is basic intuition that you don't stand in fire, or red circles, and try to block or avoid attacks.

If there is an Ogrim staring you down and you see a wide red line appear in front of him pointing to you, and you fail to move out of the way or block, you will learn very quickly not to just stand there the next time. How is that not teaching you something?

It isn't teaching, because you can still get away with ignoring the mechanics. How is anyone going to learn anything if the game isn't telling them they're doing something wrong or punishing them? You can stand in everything, never dodge roll, never block and you'll still breeze through the overland.

No, you can't. If you continue to stand in red and not move or dodge, you will suffer consequences.

If a player stands in red in overland they are likely to stand in red in veteran overland. Just making the mob stronger doesn't automatically make the player wiser.

CP5 · April 2021

SilverBride wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

Not group mechanics, basics one step higher than walking. The ability to block heavy attacks, the combat awareness to walk out of aoe's, the foresight to use food, the capacity to maintain a single dot to add damage to an enemy or sustain a single buff. I'm not asking for amazing skills, I'm asking for the place for players to actually practice these core, bare bones abilities that are applicable regardless of role. This, is what overland does nothing for, this is where it fails. You need none of this to progress through any of overland because all of overland is a starter zone, and every main quest line is set to this bar.

It's a pretty widely known concept in gaming that you use food, potions and elixirs, or other similar ways to buff. And it is basic intuition that you don't stand in fire, or red circles, and try to block or avoid attacks.

If there is an Ogrim staring you down and you see a wide red line appear in front of him pointing to you, and you fail to move out of the way or block, you will learn very quickly not to just stand there the next time. How is that not teaching you something?

Do some random dungeons, watch new players during world boss fights, I've been playing this game for years and I've seen many amazing things. Once saw a dps magnum shot himself almost off a ledge during a frost vault run, but while that was amusing, also once saw someone try to spam volley in a trial to kill different groups of enemies, only to refresh the skill before it did any damage, list goes on.

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

...

Overland content isn't gated by level anymore its for everyone ALL THE TIME! But let's for theory sake overland vet content did exist. What level of mob difficulty would be required to make the story engaging and meaningful? Vet fungal grotto level? Vet direfrost? Vet falkreach hold? Vet castle thorn? Truth is, most Vet mobs are still a joke that take a couple of moments longer to kill.

So let's go to the bosses, do you want Vet lord warden for your delve boss or maybe Vet scp hm fight for the quest boss in stonefalls.

But wait there is a place that does have relatively the same difficulty... its called Vet arena, is that the level of difficulty that you desire every quest to have in overland? I mean that is the pinnacle of Vet solo content.

Just trying yo understand what actual difficulty folks want for chasing down lost guar.

Because the whole point of making overland more engaging is to make the questing not bore people to death. Telling experienced players to shove off and stay 'where they belong' in arenas, dungeons, and trials, we've been doing those for years. They have engaging encounters yes but they pale in comparison to the amount of content spread throughout the world. Having enemies that work together, use more abilities more rapidly, to pose a thread and actually act like they are trying to survive, literally anything is an improvement from what we have now with enemies literally standing still doing nothing for 5-10s straight while the dial up sound plays out of their ears.

Arwende · April 2021

SilverBride wrote: »

No, you can't. If you continue to stand in red and not move or dodge, you will suffer consequences.

If a player stands in red in overland they are likely to stand in red in veteran overland. Just making the mob stronger doesn't automatically make the player wiser.

A player standing in red in normal overland will not die and barely be hurt.

A player standing in red in vet overland will either suffer a lot of damage or get one-shot.
Making mobs stronger may not make a player wiser, but it will show them proper consequence.

FrancisCrawford · April 2021

I only favor versions of this idea that let you dial difficulty up or down on a fight-by-fight basis.

In particular, some people enjoy blowing through trash mobs like tissue paper, but would like boss fights to be nontrivial.

merpins · April 2021

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

I only favor versions of this idea that let you dial difficulty up or down on a fight-by-fight basis.

In particular, some people enjoy blowing through trash mobs like tissue paper, but would like boss fights to be nontrivial.

People have recommended a scroll for hard mode delve bosses, similar to veteran dungeon bosses having a hard mode. Though I'd advocate for both the overworld hardmode and the scroll (on normal mode) for those that just want the bosses to be harder.