Normal and Veteran Overland

SilverBride · April 2021

Stevie6 wrote: »

This mmo has gotten off track. DPS, CMX, and the CP trees should be removed.

And it would no longer be ESO. I don't know what it would be, but I do know it wouldn't be anything I'd want to play.

CP5 wrote: »

So, issue not solved and ZOS has the tools to fix it.

There is no issue to solve. Overland is working exactly as intended.

Thechuckage · April 2021

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

@CP5

because I can detect duplicity in the arguments of others and understand the limitation of the mechanics of the game. I ask how many would play vet overland content for the same reward and watch the "crowd" evaporate. I ask what exactly makes would make overland bosses difficult that can be actually mechanically implemented and crickets. The content and the rewards people are asking for are already in existence behind instanced encounters. Greater rewards and greater difficulty. There is a natural progression from the difficulty of overland (which was railroaded content long ago) to dungeons, to vet dungeons to trial to vet trails. Going backwards to easier content and wishing it was more difficult is just that... WISHFUL THINKING.

You take one persons statement about gold rewards and project that onto the entirety of the pro-vet crowd while talking about duplicity. Pot and kettle comes to mind. Same reward for more work makes absolutely no sense. It is basic human nature to want more reward for more effort spent.

As for mechanics to make things more difficult: heavy damage casts that need to be interrupted, CCs that require breakfree, boss dodging, adds when HP drops below a percentage.

A large part of the "Natural progression from overland to dungeons" is that isn't natural. It's actually a steep plateau from overland into normals. Interrupts, CCs, using more than 1 damage ability, various buffs; all the little things that become second nature to an experienced dungeon crawler or raider have no need in current overland.

@SilverBride Stories need weight. If the hero never has to struggle, never has to overcome challenges then it is a poor story. "Going to save the world from an evil god" loses all meaning when the difficulty curve makes the Great Plains look mountainous by comparison.

Sevn · April 2021

skooma_dealer wrote: »

The playerbase is already split. It's just one half is happy and other is not.

I mean you no offense, but simply put you guys really are delusional if you think it's anywhere near half the playerbase that wants this or would utilize this.

Even here on the forums, a tiny picture of the population, there's a poll showing overwhelming numbers that are against this.

I mean seriously, if it was anywhere near the number of players you are suggesting Zos, who has ALL the data, would be fools for ignoring this group, year after year mind you.

orion_1981usub17_ESO · April 2021

"All they need to do is..." Those are really cute words don't actually understand the nature of game design and coding. It would take a ton of work to rewrite or even copy and paste new lines of code for old MOBs. Its not worth it, you are not worth that amount of investment.

Look, overland is a snorefest, and with out a significant AI upgrade it will always be a snorefest. But if you did upgrade it, what then once you mastered that? They have to upgrade it again? and again? and again? Where does your demands for improved overland difficulty end? Because here's the thing, they are doing this, and we master that difficulty too.

Think back to when original dungeons were hard. When the vet originals wiped groups and made folks sweat and get gud? Now we laugh at those too. I assume you'll be asking for vet vet vet HM fungal grotto next?

Your living in the past with nostalgia glasses, you can go back there but I assure you will be bored no matter what; much in the same way that watching old Saturday morning cartoons makes folks realize how actually horrible they were.

Daraklus · April 2021

Decided to log onto one of my old mid-30's, played for about half an hour through the start of the Western Skyrim Storyline... Let's just say I am more interested on being in the forums than actually playing, and it ain't the design of the quests that is at fault for that. In fact playing The Lost Vikings is a more desirable idea, and that is a 28 year old game.

[snip]

" Folks have a natural habit of talking big, just look at "wildstar"."
What does Wildstar have to do with anything?

When I say that I would play in a Veteran Overland zone, this ain't "Talking big" as you seem to think. I've made it very clear that I had a good time playing Cadwell's Silver and Gold, and would like that experience back.

"Overland quest content is for new players and story, that's it."
Is this any different from a Veteran Dungeon runner saying "Veteran dungeons are only for good players"? The elitism is staggering, and people have no self-awareness to it.

This sentiment also seems to actively deny the presence of new players who get bored of the game because the Overland difficulty gives the false impression of "Is this what the game is like?", likely ending up making them leave, outside of the super duper casuals who's gaming experience consists of Pop Cap games.

"its good that it feels dull after you mastered it... its time to grow up as a player and move to more challenging content. "
How is it any good that people find the Overland to be boring? You do realize that it's the majority of the game, right? So you are telling me that it is good that people get bored of the majority, and should actively avoid playing it.... So what is the point of anyone buying any future expansions or non-dungeon Content Packs, then?

Sorry, already doing Veteran dungeons. But believe it or not, I don't want that to be the ONLY fun thing for me to do in the game. I tried doing only dungeons multiple times, it ended up getting me bored, burned out and not playing for an extended period.

"Now one silly counter arguement is that other players "suck" in harder content and the answer is yes! That part of the process of improvement is creating group to play with and lifting up your fellow gamers to take on content that you can not do alone"
No, it is not a silly argument, neither is it the obligation of other players to teach newer players how to do "Basic Combat 101". It's the game's job to give people the basics and to also encourage them to practice upon them so that it becomes second nature for them.

I mean, people can take people under their wing... But more often than not they don't want to because it's often rejected. I should know, I tend to be like that sometime (In my defense I prefer to be self-reliant and the people who promise me big deeps are often unpleasant people)

It's already well-known that people don't take kindly to being told what to do, so it leads to scenarios where you are playing a game that does not encourage you to do anything to "Boost your performance" and is perfectly content with you to doing the bare minimum (And with the upcoming companions; Encourage you to not play with other players), and then when there is anything that poses a bit more of a challenge, or has players tell you things that could help with the performance boost... Well, you got a volatile cascade.

Not to mention that it's because of the volatile cascade that people became lazy and just started linking guides and say "Read that" instead of taking people under their wing.

"I wonder if these players simply fear their inability to play harder group content, and instead of self improvement in game play and social interactions, they hide back in the cave of solo play, away from their fellow gamers."
Yes and no. I may be alright with playing with other players, but more often than not they feel like a burden.

90% of my playtime is spent playing with my girlfriend, and we prefer to play by ourselves rather than have other players latch on to our party. Sure we could do dungeons by ourselves.... Just they often are designed with four players in mind rather than two, and there aren't any Arenas in the game that you can do with two players. Would love to do Maelstrom Arena with her, but it's solo so... No doing that I guess.

I would also like to mention that she likes to play games with stories, and finds the game fun, but notes that it really is the easiest MMO ever, something that I guess she is not a big fan of.

"If they add more rewards to overland content, the developers would be encouraging the stagnation of player growth and skill."
Dude. They're already encouraging this with the very easy Overland. And encourage it even further with Companions. In fact when they were announced, they specifically said that it is for those people who don't feel confident with playing in groups of other players.

Also I don't see how it would "Stagnate" anything if there are added rewards (Or at least a bit of a higher chance at better rewards) within the Veteran Overland, where people would have a bit of a proper challenge and would be encouraged to effectively "Git gut".

"they are seeing nostalgia glasses for the early days they played. Safe easy bosses that only have a hard attack or two and wont be tough no matter the hitpoints added. This is the wrong mindset and leads to player stagnation."
As someone who had to utilize stealth attacks and consumables when doing Cadwell's Silver and Gold, I firmly reject the notion that my desire to play in those olden days is because of "Nostalgia Glasses".

[Edited to remove Baiting]

SilverBride · April 2021

Thechuckage wrote: »

@SilverBride Stories need weight. If the hero never has to struggle, never has to overcome challenges then it is a poor story. "Going to save the world from an evil god" loses all meaning when the difficulty curve makes the Great Plains look mountainous by comparison.

I don't need to struggle to enjoy the story. In fact I find the opposite to be true. I can only believe I am really a hero if I am strong enough to crush my enemies.

The story is fine just as it is.

CP5 · April 2021

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

"All they need to do is..." Those are really cute words don't actually understand the nature of game design and coding. It would take a ton of work to rewrite or even copy and paste new lines of code for old MOBs. Its not worth it, you are not worth that amount of investment.

Look, overland is a snorefest, and with out a significant AI upgrade it will always be a snorefest. But if you did upgrade it, what then once you mastered that? They have to upgrade it again? and again? and again? Where does your demands for improved overland difficulty end? Because here's the thing, they are doing this, and we master that difficulty too.

Think back to when original dungeons were hard. When the vet originals wiped groups and made folks sweat and get gud? Now we laugh at those too. I assume you'll be asking for vet vet vet HM fungal grotto next?

Your living in the past with nostalgia glasses, you can go back there but I assure you will be bored no matter what; much in the same way that watching old Saturday morning cartoons makes folks realize how actually horrible they were.

The original dungeons were hard when I didn't know how to play. I didn't learn how to play when doing silver or gold zones, even resorted to using a resto staff on my main stamina character given how willing I was to just brute force through things. Even after doing the Wrothgar main quest line I still didn't. Only after a rather harsh response from my group about the low damage, with their eyes firmly on my back, did I commit to never touching vet content again until I beat vMA. Only after I did that did I really know what I was doing but ever since then I've been more able to actually enjoy the content in game that engages me because ESO has a pretty good combat system, a system that overland fails on every front to realize.

And as an added fact, I did plenty of game design, maybe put a couple of years into it, and I know full well that if ESO has a combat system that involves many different types of enemies (which it does) then they have a simple work flow for making new AI packages so designers can worry about making interesting enemies and encounters while the programmers focus on things like developing new tools for the designers to use the future and the like. Tweaking AI packages would be time consuming only because of the number of enemy types in the game, the animations and visuals are already made.

Like I said, threads like this will continue because people like me want to enjoy the vast majority of the content ZOS puts out but can't because the narratives die the second we try to engage with them, and getting a good chunk of the player base to become invested in the lions share of the content they produce would be a worthwhile investment. Having enemies that think, even if they aren't dark souls-esque difficult (which isn't what is being asked for), at least would provide meaningful and memorable encounters, and that's what matters.

skooma_dealer · April 2021

Sevn wrote: »

skooma_dealer wrote: »

The playerbase is already split. It's just one half is happy and other is not.

I mean you no offense, but simply put you guys really are delusional if you think it's anywhere near half the playerbase that wants this or would utilize this.

Even here on the forums, a tiny picture of the population, there's a poll showing overwhelming numbers that are against this.

I mean seriously, if it was anywhere near the number of players you are suggesting Zos, who has ALL the data, would be fools for ignoring this group, year after year mind you.

Nobody's saying the halves are even. I think, there are more casuals than hardcore players, and yet vet trials and other vet content exist. So there is no reason not to make vet overland apart from being maybe technically difficult. If casuals do not like it, then they free not to play it. I want to enjoy more engaging battle in quests like casuals enjoy to press 1-2 buttons standing in every aoe they see and emerge victorious in the end. I mean, for every vet content there is a "normal" counterpart. Normal and vet dungeons, normal and vet arenas, normal and vet trials. And only overland has one option.

SilverBride · April 2021

CP5 wrote: »

Having enemies that think, even if they aren't dark souls-esque difficult (which isn't what is being asked for), at least would provide meaningful and memorable encounters, and that's what matters.

Keeping the majority of players happy is what matters. ZoS not going to put in the time and manpower to "fix" something that is working as intended, just to please a few.

skooma_dealer wrote: »

Nobody's saying the halves are even. I think, there are more casuals than hardcore players, and yet vet trials and other vet content exist. So there is no reason not to make vet overland apart from being maybe technically difficult.

There is a reason. One of the reasons they introduced One Tamriel was to unite the player base. They are not going to turn around now and split it up again.

orion_1981usub17_ESO · April 2021

@chuckage

the progression from overland is normal and natural because we all did it through the original play through. I remember questing through stone falls and advancing to fungal grotto. I remember mastering those mechanics and advancing to mazzateum.

You can't go backwards, you cant unlearn experience. The path is forward, to master greater difficulty and that path is natural. Folks wishing to capture the new difficulty and place it in old path ways just hope in vain to recapture the magic of the natural learning progression.

I assure you, beyond the "I want leet rewards for easy work crowd" (and they exist, they are here as always), there are two other crowds, nostalgia goggles crowd that want the same rush of beating molag bal again as they did the first time, or the I'm so bored having done everything in the game and in life crowd. None of them will ever be happy.

@Daraklus

1. Wildstar failed because it lobbied itself as a hard mode game with 40 man raid bosses and no actually showed up to play the harder content. That is one of my points against wasting resources for vet overland... no one will actually show up.

2. There many players who never advance into vet dungeons, its too difficult and they quit, likely because they didn't find any folks (like myself) who would be willing to teach them. Instead they go folks that decided it wasn't their responsibility to help and encourage new players. And yes I spent countless hours teaching new player the intricacies of roll dodge, blocking and cancelling and I would say that was that game time that I find the most enjoyable apart from getting a good vet HM score or helping a friend get EMP.

If you wish to remain a duo with your girl in easy land, that fine... Go kill world bosses in dlc zones, most should give two folks enough challenge to satisfy themselves. But you are the one choosing not to engage others to do more challenging content. So I just want you to understand that ZOS is putting veteran content out and you are choosing not to do it.

orion_1981usub17_ESO · April 2021

@CP5

look at what your saying, you didn't learn anything until you played with others. Now imagine if you had vet overland content, folks wouldn't learn anything and then because they didn't play with other that critiqued them, they would quit. That does happen now today. It irks me when I see a group trying to kick a poor performer with out comment on their performance.

Now you want to add to that burden? This game does have a proper natural progression and you are actively seeking to potentially disrupt it. Much like starting new characters in DLC zones. Folks have forgotten how they learned, when and where they learned it. I use to save the recordings of boss fight to learn the mechanics and when I was cleaning out my files years back I watched them all and it amazed me the natural progression of how I mastered most of the game.

I swear to you all now, you don't realize what asking for, you don't remember the progression. Its natural to forget the nuts and bolts. You will delegitimize all you will potentially accomplish by creating a safe space in overland content. If you wish for personal stagnation, that acceptable, play at your level of content you enjoy but it would be irresponsible to try to gain greater rewards for overland content than what is currently given.

Overland is for story and new players and those who just want to sail through. If you want to "make it challenging" then wear crafted non set gear and no cp and pretend that you never learned how to block or step out of the fire. You wont have fun, I assure you.

skooma_dealer · April 2021

SilverBride wrote: »

skooma_dealer wrote: »

Nobody's saying the halves are even. I think, there are more casuals than hardcore players, and yet vet trials and other vet content exist. So there is no reason not to make vet overland apart from being maybe technically difficult.

There is a reason. One of the reasons they introduced One Tamriel was to unite the player base. They are not going to turn around now and split it up again.

As far as I know before One Tamriel you couldn't even quest with a friend from another Alliance. And population was divided not in 2, but in 3. But vet overland is not supposed to divide people in that fashion. It's just an option. A switch you could always flip back and enjoy the game with your casual friends. I, for example, will never cooperate with others while doing story quests. I assume, people who ask vet overland think the same way. You and others will lose nothing anyway, since people advocating for vet overland will not play with you in the first place. That's why I don't really get this argument about dividing player base.

orion_1981usub17_ESO · April 2021

Pre-pre one tamriel, zones were level locked so population wasn't just divided by faction, but by level too. And a mob in stone fall was easier to defeat than a mob in the rift by a wide margin. Folks rarely remember this but rift mobs will still do their mobs actions faster than a stonefall mob. Noticeable? Not to a veteran but to a new player yes.

And you hit the nail on the head, folks asking for vet overland content do not wish to play with others. And yet is remarkable how often they wish for the same rewards as those who must team up with groups to master content.

Iccotak · April 2021

SilverBride wrote: »

Thechuckage wrote: »

@SilverBride Stories need weight. If the hero never has to struggle, never has to overcome challenges then it is a poor story. "Going to save the world from an evil god" loses all meaning when the difficulty curve makes the Great Plains look mountainous by comparison.

I don't need to struggle to enjoy the story. In fact I find the opposite to be true. I can only believe I am really a hero if I am strong enough to crush my enemies.

The story is fine just as it is.

It’s not fun when it practically hands you the victory on a silver platter.

It doesn’t feel earned and that can directly hamper one’s enjoyment.

I regularly participated in Vet content and played Overland casually - (though I am currently taking a break due to life circumstances) the problem is that the vast majority of the content simply doesn’t attempt to be engaging.

Engaging Gameplay and Engaging Story have been made mutually exclusive.

The only reason I am playing the chapter this year because it is a heavily Argonian themed zone.

For me my primary issue is just how lackluster Overland and main story encounters are. Don’t get me wrong they’re very visually appealing it and it has decent writing, but the gameplay is so lackluster.

The only places to find engaging gameplay are endgame, which I have to get a group together for, and PVP.

The rest of it feels more like a walking simulator, which doesn’t make it worth very much to me - in my opinion.

I would like to be able to enjoy the solo questing experience - However, I cannot get excited for a story that I know is going to be a breeze to beat. Even if I do Nerf myself, that just makes it longer & tedious - not actually fun.

(I know because I tried it)

CP5 · April 2021

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

@CP5

look at what your saying, you didn't learn anything until you played with others. Now imagine if you had vet overland content, folks wouldn't learn anything and then because they didn't play with other that critiqued them, they would quit. That does happen now today. It irks me when I see a group trying to kick a poor performer with out comment on their performance.

Now you want to add to that burden? This game does have a proper natural progression and you are actively seeking to potentially disrupt it. Much like starting new characters in DLC zones. Folks have forgotten how they learned, when and where they learned it. I use to save the recordings of boss fight to learn the mechanics and when I was cleaning out my files years back I watched them all and it amazed me the natural progression of how I mastered most of the game.

I swear to you all now, you don't realize what asking for, you don't remember the progression. Its natural to forget the nuts and bolts. You will delegitimize all you will potentially accomplish by creating a safe space in overland content. If you wish for personal stagnation, that acceptable, play at your level of content you enjoy but it would be irresponsible to try to gain greater rewards for overland content than what is currently given.

Overland is for story and new players and those who just want to sail through. If you want to "make it challenging" then wear crafted non set gear and no cp and pretend that you never learned how to block or step out of the fire. You wont have fun, I assure you.

I didn't learn anything until I applied myself and did vMA to actually learn because overland failed to give me the tools I needed to succeed, not because I joined a group and magically learned, it was because of a negative experience I hat where many would have quit. I remember one of my first dungeons and before a boss one of the people in the group offered me food because they saw how low my health was. Prior to this I didn't need to even know what food was, let alone use it. If overland doesn't even ask you to try you will never feel the need to learn, hence why I didn't.

Asking for enemies to do anything beyond a simple single attack every 5s, while standing still, and spending the rest of their time ogling at your amazing abilities isn't doing new players any favors and is dull content for anyone who has learned how to play. Asking for the game to live up to its potential isn't to much and isn't asking to make content inaccessible. And again, self nerfing does nothing for challenge because again, all it does is lengthen fights against enemies who don't know how. The story fails as well because how can I invest myself in a story when I know the only thing protecting the main antagonist is plot armor, and my own patience.

SilverBride · April 2021

Iccotak wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Thechuckage wrote: »

@SilverBride Stories need weight. If the hero never has to struggle, never has to overcome challenges then it is a poor story. "Going to save the world from an evil god" loses all meaning when the difficulty curve makes the Great Plains look mountainous by comparison.

I don't need to struggle to enjoy the story. In fact I find the opposite to be true. I can only believe I am really a hero if I am strong enough to crush my enemies.

The story is fine just as it is.

It’s not fun when it practically hands you the victory on a silver platter.

It may not be fun for you, but it is for me, and many others. I love that I've gotten strong enough that I can enjoy the base story without struggling.

Not everyone feels that way, and that is why we have veteran dungeons and trials. They exist exclusively to provide a challenge for those who choose more than the base game.

It is not reasonable to expect them to change the base game for the small amount of players who would actually utilize a veteran overland.

CP5 wrote: »

I didn't learn anything until I applied myself and did vMA to actually learn because overland failed to give me the tools I needed to succeed, not because I joined a group and magically learned...

Overland tells the story. It is not there to teach how to run dungeons and trials. Those can only be learned by running dungeons and trials. And yes, when you join a group you do learn, not by magic but by figuring out your role in a group dynamic, and experience.

CP5 · April 2021

Silver, I'm glad you are able to fully enjoy the stories the game has to offer and that they are accessible to everyone, but for people who are more capable the combat sections of these stories, of which there are many, not only pull any sense of tension out of them, but turn them into a joke. I can't take a plot about some ancient evil rising to destroy the world when at every turn I meet no resistance, with the only thing preventing me from ending the threat being several secessions of listening to npcs wine about it being the end of the world only to eventually give me the address of the off switch so I can go flip it. Those quest aren't memorable and are more of a chore for those looking for a satisfying combat situation in their combat heavy stories. And yes, you can learn things outside of group, but it's a shame the majority of those areas still have the expectation that you have a base level of game sense which you never learn until it is required.

SilverBride · April 2021

CP5 wrote: »

for people who are more capable the combat sections of these stories, of which there are many, not only pull any sense of tension out of them, but turn them into a joke.

I do not choose to do veteran content because it is not what I enjoy any more. But that does not mean I am not capable. I have played several MMOs, and done a lot of raiding, and I am quite capable of doing so again if I choose, because I know how to prepare myself.

CP5 wrote: »

you can learn things outside of group, but it's a shame the majority of those areas still have the expectation that you have a base level of game sense which you never learn until it is required.

You can't play any MMO and immediately know everything you will ever need to learn. This means you will step foot into content, such as your first dungeon or trial, and not immediately know the boss mechanics, etc.. And you may encounter players who expect more than you are ready for, but that is a completely different topic, and one of the reasons companions are being introduced. But it is not something that veteran overland will resolve. That is not its purpose.

orion_1981usub17_ESO · April 2021

@CP5 you not applying yourself and blaming others for a bad dungeon experience is a cop-out. Your telling me, you went x amount of time and never questioned why there was food and what it was for?

I've met several players in dungeons that didn't know what food was for, but that tells me they are not inquisitive, they don't read tool tips and they don't bother to investigate or improve until someone gives them a swift kick to the rear and sets them straight. And I don't mind teach such folks either, and they all have thanked me from saving them from ignorance while you curse those who called you out?

Now I see a little clearer why you wish to remain
in solo content.

CP5 · April 2021

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

@CP5 you not applying yourself and blaming others for a bad dungeon experience is a cop-out. Your telling me, you went x amount of time and never questioned why there was food and what it was for?

I've met several players in dungeons that didn't know what food was for, but that tells me they are not inquisitive, they don't read tool tips and they don't bother to investigate or improve until someone gives them a swift kick to the rear and sets them straight. And I don't mind teach such folks either, and they all have thanked me from saving them from ignorance while you curse those who called you out?

Now I see a little clearer why you wish to remain
in solo content.

Aside from the fact I clearly said I am actively in two weekly trial groups, kind of nullifying that point entirely, during the first year I played ESO I never needed food, or potions for that matter, because overland is so disengaging. Heck, the 3rd zone I went through (Greenshade) I did so without any armor on because in my mind repairing the gear I had was to much of a cost. If people meet challenges they will look for tools to overcome them, if they don't have enough health to stand a blow they will either learn to avoid the hit or investigate means of getting more health, again an issue of overland not preparing people to play. But please, as is clear form all of these responses, broad pictures of 'us elitist' wanting to 'ruin overland' when all we want is to enjoy the quest content in a way that's worth our time, rather than having every major storyline watered down so much that even expecting one memorable encounter is to much to ask over a year long story line.

Also, a quick thing about people "thanking you for saving them from ignorance", you know how many randoms I ran with when I used to tank for pugs on the daily? They would either ignore me or call me out for trying to tell them how to play, reinforcing the elitist image that you seem to have of me. Wouldn't it instead be great for people to learn and figure these things out on their own? Video games teach people by action, not hand holding tutorials whose lessons are dropped the second they leave the tutorial itself.

martinhpb16_ESO · April 2021

I'm totally all for introducing more difficulty into overland for those that want it.

I stopped playing in overland years ago because it became just too easy and therefore not interesting to me.

I will not be buying Blackwood on release for this reason.

I would be paying full price if I knew I could have some adventures in overland again

martinhpb16_ESO · April 2021

Abelon wrote: »

I am a hundred percent for some version of more difficult overland/bosses, whatever. But this thread is going downhill fast, maybe it should get closed already.

These threads always go downhill because people get immediately defensive and start throwing elitism accusations around

The key to the original post and what some people miss is that it is about introducing a choice - normal or vet in overland

If you like it how it is now then fine, you can have it. There is a portion of the games population who don't enjoy it how it is now, why would you want to deny them the option to play something they would enjoy?

Iccotak · April 2021

SilverBride wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Thechuckage wrote: »

@SilverBride Stories need weight. If the hero never has to struggle, never has to overcome challenges then it is a poor story. "Going to save the world from an evil god" loses all meaning when the difficulty curve makes the Great Plains look mountainous by comparison.

I don't need to struggle to enjoy the story. In fact I find the opposite to be true. I can only believe I am really a hero if I am strong enough to crush my enemies.

The story is fine just as it is.

It’s not fun when it practically hands you the victory on a silver platter.

It may not be fun for you, but it is for me, and many others. I love that I've gotten strong enough that I can enjoy the base story without struggling.

Not everyone feels that way, and that is why we have veteran dungeons and trials. They exist exclusively to provide a challenge for those who choose more than the base game.

It is not reasonable to expect them to change the base game because a few players don't want to play the content they prepared their characters for.

CP5 wrote: »

I didn't learn anything until I applied myself and did vMA to actually learn because overland failed to give me the tools I needed to succeed, not because I joined a group and magically learned...

Overland tells the story. It is not there to teach how to run dungeons and trials. Those can only be learned by running dungeons and trials. And yes, when you join a group you do learn, not by magic but by figuring out your role in a group dynamic, and experience.

And we’re back to;

1. You’re version of fun is more important than my version of fun.

2. engaging gameplay & engaging story being mutually exclusive.

Two extremes with no middle ground.

——————————————————

Even when discussed as an optional instance for just the Main Story Bosses.

So then there’d be something for everyone when it comes to the Story

Because not everyone has the same experience and some people would like to be able Solo questing experience, perhaps even with a friend they invited.

(Just because it is universally accessible does not make it universally enjoyable)

And to make it clear on “Self Nerf”

Prolonging fights against incompetent enemies doesn't solve the core problem.

SilverBride · April 2021

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

If you like it how it is now then fine, you can have it. There is a portion of the games population who don't enjoy it how it is now, why would you want to deny them the option to play something they would enjoy?

My opposition to this idea has nothing to do with denying anyone something they would enjoy. It is just not feasible to put the time and manpower and resources into changing overland into something it was never intended to be. Especially since it would not be widely used.

skooma_dealer · April 2021

SilverBride wrote: »

It is just not feasible to put the time and manpower and resources into changing overland into something it was never intended to be.

How you can be so sure about this? They revamped character progression after 50 what... third or fourth time already? And no guarantee there will be no new version of CP or entire new system in the future. There was no chance of getting apex mounts by in-game means for the entire lifespan of this game, and yet they will change it in Blackwood. Apparently they can change their minds, and nothing is set in stone.

CP5 · April 2021

SilverBride wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

If you like it how it is now then fine, you can have it. There is a portion of the games population who don't enjoy it how it is now, why would you want to deny them the option to play something they would enjoy?

My opposition to this idea has nothing to do with denying anyone something they would enjoy. It is just not feasible to put the time and manpower and resources into changing overland into something it was never intended to be. Especially since it would not be widely used.

ZOS spent quite a few months updating zone delves one batch of 3 at a time, stopping on the last zone of each faction. These locations, once one way loops, are now far more sprawling and interesting to explore. Do players go there often? Not at all, but enhancing the quality of pre-existing content has been done before and has merit to be done. ZOS has added extra frills to each expansion for the base game update and something like this would be right in line. The ability to make separate instances is already there, making new abilities isn't resource intensive, and updating pre-existing AI packages which will then update all mobs who use them while time consuming isn't hard. Shooting down every idea because you feel it is to much for ZOS to handle won't stop these threads form showing up.

SilverBride · April 2021

skooma_dealer wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

It is just not feasible to put the time and manpower and resources into changing overland into something it was never intended to be.

How you can be so sure about this? They revamped character progression after 50 what... third or fourth time already? And no guarantee there will be no new version of CP or entire new system in the future. There was no chance of getting apex mounts by in-game means for the entire lifespan of this game, and yet they will change it in Blackwood. Apparently they can change their minds, and nothing is set in stone.

No one can be sure. But I do know they need a good reason and/or a wide audience wanting any change before they would consider it. There is neither with this request.

skooma_dealer · April 2021

SilverBride wrote: »

skooma_dealer wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

It is just not feasible to put the time and manpower and resources into changing overland into something it was never intended to be.

How you can be so sure about this? They revamped character progression after 50 what... third or fourth time already? And no guarantee there will be no new version of CP or entire new system in the future. There was no chance of getting apex mounts by in-game means for the entire lifespan of this game, and yet they will change it in Blackwood. Apparently they can change their minds, and nothing is set in stone.

No one can be sure. But I do know they need a good reason and/or a wide audience wanting any change before they would consider it. There is neither with this request.

I wonder then, how they come up with the ideas for new things. There is no way to know what majority wants, since most people just play the game and do not communicate with devs.

orion_1981usub17_ESO · April 2021

Wow someone must have the worse luck with others, I rarely see anyone upset that you helped them improve. Maybe you did it wrong? And I do not hold an elitist opinion of anyone wishing for veteran overland content, quite the opposite. I believe those that desire this are secretly afraid of social interaction and self improvement... those are not the skills of an "elite" player.

And no, in game is not where you learn about mmos... you learn mmos on websites dedicated to that mmo. Long ago there was the tamriel foundry where folks like myself speculated for years before the first beta. I know this seems countertuitive but it's not new for mmo games where most the information is found elsewhere.

Imagine if everyone simply stayed in their comfort zones.

CP5 · April 2021

You shouldn't have to leave a game to learn about it. For the nuanced math sure, but for things like using consumables, applying a dot then using other attacks while it ticks, moving out of aoes, those things should be taught in game and overland doesn't. I've done my fair share of pugs where I've tried to help others, some with success, some with silence, and some with hostility, depending on the kindness of some players to teach and some to be taught, doesn't happen both ways nearly enough.

Having overland provide obstacles that need to be overcome encourages people to search for tools to do so, when I first fought Doshia I had no clue the orbs healed her when they reached her, but when I saw that if I killed them I got a visual buff on me and she didn't get healed I learned, now you can kill her before she even gets a chance to turn around. Feel free to go and search for videos about her, years ago people were doing guides to beating her which boiled down to 'kill the orbs' and now you have the "you have failed me doshia" video where someone two taps her. Obstacles teach, having every zone and every quest in those zones being so easy doesn't.