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Thanks for ruining heavy armor
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Scardan✭✭✭✭✭[snip] I dont PvP at all but I do run a magic theiving heavy armor orc. Yeah its not going to win awards for maxing out stats but I made it work well for pve and it was fun.
Now with these insane nerfs (added detection range??? Extra sprint cost??? Oh yeah I forgot ESO is a realistic sim of a game) im going to just have to abandon heavy completely in favor or medium or light as well the majority of pve players (thanks for nerfing the overall armor bonus as well).
[snip]
[edited for baiting]
Detection range: put armor away, that's all. Nothing insane here imho.
Extra sprint cost: 7% is minor one, nothing insane. 70%, that would be insane, but only 7% - imho not worth to worry about it. Plus you get a lot of stamina from CP and base stats.
Realistic sim of a game: yeah, heavy armor makes noise without a muffle spell
.
Also heavy armor will still be the best in damage mitigation.Edited by Scardan on March 3, 2021 6:29PMLet's be extremely precise in our use of terms.0 -
DreadDaedroth✭✭✭✭✭
✭[snip] I dont PvP at all but I do run a magic theiving heavy armor orc. Yeah its not going to win awards for maxing out stats but I made it work well for pve and it was fun.
Now with these insane nerfs (added detection range??? Extra sprint cost??? Oh yeah I forgot ESO is a realistic sim of a game) im going to just have to abandon heavy completely in favor or medium or light as well the majority of pve players (thanks for nerfing the overall armor bonus as well).
[snip]
[edited for baiting]
Detection range: put armor away, that's all. Nothing insane here imho.
Extra sprint cost: 7% is minor one, nothing insane. 70%, that would be insane, but only 7% - imho not worth to worry about it. Plus you get a lot of stamina from CP and base stats.
Realistic sim of a game: yeah, heavy armor makes noise without a muffle spell.
Also heavy armor will still be the best in damage mitigation.
When sneaking if you stay still like a statue it does not matter if you wear metal, leather or silk otherwise tell me what's sneaky about a giant glowing fire staff or a bunch of arrows rattling in their quarry.2 -
Scardan✭✭✭✭✭DreadDaedroth wrote: »[snip] I dont PvP at all but I do run a magic theiving heavy armor orc. Yeah its not going to win awards for maxing out stats but I made it work well for pve and it was fun.
Now with these insane nerfs (added detection range??? Extra sprint cost??? Oh yeah I forgot ESO is a realistic sim of a game) im going to just have to abandon heavy completely in favor or medium or light as well the majority of pve players (thanks for nerfing the overall armor bonus as well).
[snip]
[edited for baiting]
Detection range: put armor away, that's all. Nothing insane here imho.
Extra sprint cost: 7% is minor one, nothing insane. 70%, that would be insane, but only 7% - imho not worth to worry about it. Plus you get a lot of stamina from CP and base stats.
Realistic sim of a game: yeah, heavy armor makes noise without a muffle spell.
Also heavy armor will still be the best in damage mitigation.
When sneaking if you stay still like a statue it does not matter if you wear metal, leather or silk otherwise tell me what's sneaky about a giant glowing fire staff or a bunch of arrows rattling in their quarry.
While standing, does not matter yet. Will change after patch xD.
About second point: arrows aren't rattling in the quarry and a giant glowing stuff or even better, giant glowing flying pet following you while you sneak behind a person are not noticed by that person for whatever game mechanic reason. Breaks every immersion possible.
Let's be extremely precise in our use of terms.0 -
amgame308_ESO✭✭✭I dunno I think it is thematically correct. If you are in metal shock, burning, etc is going to impact you more. Also you are going to run slower and tire out faster.
I do like there are no longer any more 5 piece requirements to get the bonuses.
We'll see how it goes.4 -
Grimlok_S✭✭✭✭✭WOW. Now it looks like my Heavy armour light attack hybrid fishing/housing decorator is useless too.
Beyond words right now.Light Attack Hero
Class contextStamplar
StamDK
Stamsorc
MagDK
StamMAGStamden
Magplar
Stam NB
Bomb NB3 -
Kurat✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭milllaurie wrote: »And again pvp sets getting nerfs because of pve players. Shall we talk about seventh legion?
[snip] would you check new cp system? Have you noticed everyone gets 5k hp now? Maybe you can turn that into stam? Have you noticed an extra 1k weapon damage incomming? Have you seen the cp that gives you resources back when enemies die?
And, most importantly, have you even logged on to the pts to check how it affects your gameplay at all?
[edited for baiting]
No one uses seventh legion in pve lmao
All nerfs in this game, including these heavy armor ones are because of PVPers whining.6 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭milllaurie wrote: »And again pvp sets getting nerfs because of pve players. Shall we talk about seventh legion?
[snip] would you check new cp system? Have you noticed everyone gets 5k hp now? Maybe you can turn that into stam? Have you noticed an extra 1k weapon damage incomming? Have you seen the cp that gives you resources back when enemies die?
And, most importantly, have you even logged on to the pts to check how it affects your gameplay at all?
[edited for baiting]
No one uses seventh legion in pve lmao
All nerfs in this game, including these heavy armor ones are because of PVPers whining.
PVE players where using seventh as a prebuff set, it literally says it in the patch notes...2 -
Sangwyne✭✭✭✭✭
✭relentless_turnip wrote: »
I have combed through the patch notes quite extensively and have not seen where it says that Seventh Legion was being used specifically in PvE. The changes noted are
in PTS 6.3.0 andIn efforts to combat against the effectiveness of “pre-buff” sets, or sets that retain their effect after activating and unequipping them, we’ve made the following adjustments:
These sets now require you to be in combat for their 5-piece bonuses to activate:
All Halls of Fabrication unique sets
Armor Master
Meritorious Service
Moon Dancer
Shroud of the Lich
Spectre’s Eye
Tooth of Lokkestiiz
Undaunted Infiltrator and Weaver
in 6.3.2. Nowhere in there does it say anything about PvE. If anything, the changeIn accordance with the recent change to item sets to not be usable while outside of combat to be manipulated as "pre-buff" sets, the following sets now only grant their effects/activate while in combat:
Elf Bane
Jorvuld's Guidance
Seventh Legion
under Senche's Bite seems to indicate the opposite, that these changes were done to nerf the sets specifically because people were using them to deal a large amount of burst damage right as combat began- guess which aspect of the game features "alpha strike" damage prominently. PvE has always focused on sustained damage to bosses, and while sure, there might be some trial groups cheesing certain fights by prebuffing to get the absolute most DPS they possibly could in order to push their score, it would seem like PvP was the root cause of these sets being nerfed. As is tradition.This change was done to help decrease the amount of alpha strike potential it has before combat has begun3 -
ExistingRug61✭✭✭✭relentless_turnip wrote: »
I have combed through the patch notes quite extensively and have not seen where it says that Seventh Legion was being used specifically in PvE. The changes noted are
in PTS 6.3.0 andIn efforts to combat against the effectiveness of “pre-buff” sets, or sets that retain their effect after activating and unequipping them, we’ve made the following adjustments:
These sets now require you to be in combat for their 5-piece bonuses to activate:
All Halls of Fabrication unique sets
Armor Master
Meritorious Service
Moon Dancer
Shroud of the Lich
Spectre’s Eye
Tooth of Lokkestiiz
Undaunted Infiltrator and Weaver
in 6.3.2. Nowhere in there does it say anything about PvE. If anything, the changeIn accordance with the recent change to item sets to not be usable while outside of combat to be manipulated as "pre-buff" sets, the following sets now only grant their effects/activate while in combat:
Elf Bane
Jorvuld's Guidance
Seventh Legion
under Senche's Bite seems to indicate the opposite, that these changes were done to nerf the sets specifically because people were using them to deal a large amount of burst damage right as combat began- guess which aspect of the game features "alpha strike" damage prominently. PvE has always focused on sustained damage to bosses, and while sure, there might be some trial groups cheesing certain fights by prebuffing to get the absolute most DPS they possibly could in order to push their score, it would seem like PvP was the root cause of these sets being nerfed. As is tradition.This change was done to help decrease the amount of alpha strike potential it has before combat has begun
"there might be some trial groups cheesing certain fights by prebuffing to get the absolute most DPS they possibly could in order to push their score"
Evidence would suggest this, not pvp, was the reason for these specific changes.
When referring to "pre buff" sets, the part you quoted from the patch notes directly defines these as "sets that retain their effect after activating and unequipping them"
This is in the context of PvE as this is where score pushers were doing things like buffing with certain sets and swapping them out before combat started to their normal trial gear. This was not something that was generally done in PvP to my knowledge.
It is further discussed in this thread, initially focused on Elf Bane, but also in the context of the other sets changed, including seventh legion.:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/561168/elf-bane-needs-to-be-reverted
Realistically, things get nerfed sometimes for PvE reasons, and sometimes for PvP reasons, and sometimes for both. Saying its all one way or the other would be counter to what I have observed in past history.Edited by ExistingRug61 on March 4, 2021 5:34AM6 -
Sangwyne✭✭✭✭✭
✭ExistingRug61 wrote: »"there might be some trial groups cheesing certain fights by prebuffing to get the absolute most DPS they possibly could in order to push their score"
Evidence would suggest this, not pvp, was the reason for these specific changes.
It is further discussed in this thread, initially focused on Elf Bane, but also in the context of the other sets changed, including seventh legion.:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/561168/elf-bane-needs-to-be-reverted
...WHAT evidence??? I cited the PTS notes written by the actual developers, which literally said that the sets were nerfed to reduce their alpha strike potential (i.e. in PvP) but did not once mention trials or PvE, and you cited... me? And some thread written by a random guy on the forums that didn't even make it to two pages? How is that evidence?ExistingRug61 wrote: »Evidence would suggestExistingRug61 wrote: »When referring to "pre buff" sets, the part you quoted from the patch notes directly defines these as "sets that retain their effect after activating and unequipping them"
This is in the context of PvE as this is where score pushers were doing things like buffing with certain sets and swapping them out before combat started to their normal trial gear. This was not something that was generally done in PvP to my knowledge.
Realistically, things get nerfed sometimes for PvE reasons, and sometimes for PvP reasons, and sometimes for both. Saying its all one way or the other would be counter to what I have observed in past history.
Nowhere in there is PvE insinuated to be the context, and nowhere in the PTS patch notes regarding those changes do the words trial, overland, PvE, or anything even tangentially related to those topics even come up, I have absolutely zero idea where you got that notion. The PTS notes do mention that "alpha strike potential" needed to be addressed with these sets and that's why they were nerfed; dealing huge amounts of burst damage at the start of a fight is generally regarded as a PvP thing, where gankers pop out from invisibility and burst someone down by surprise before they are able to mount a defense. In PvE, the ability to put out sustained damage is regarded as much more valuable. Look, I'm not saying that sets used in PvP have never been nerfed because people in PvE were abusing/exploiting some unforeseen aspect of them to push score in progression groups, but seriously, you're grasping at straws here. This ain't it chief.4 -
Brrrofski✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Really appreciate it ZOS and you complaining PvP bunch. I dont PvP at all but I do run a magic theiving heavy armor orc. Yeah its not going to win awards for maxing out stats but I made it work well for pve and it was fun.
Now with these insane nerfs (added detection range??? Extra sprint cost??? Oh yeah I forgot ESO is a realistic sim of a game) im going to just have to abandon heavy completely in favor or medium or light as well the majority of pve players (thanks for nerfing the overall armor bonus as well).
This is why I despise pve games that include PvP because they are always changed to facor the PvP players and never the pve players.
So because something is too good in oneExistingRug61 wrote: »"there might be some trial groups cheesing certain fights by prebuffing to get the absolute most DPS they possibly could in order to push their score"
Evidence would suggest this, not pvp, was the reason for these specific changes.
It is further discussed in this thread, initially focused on Elf Bane, but also in the context of the other sets changed, including seventh legion.:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/561168/elf-bane-needs-to-be-reverted
...WHAT evidence??? I cited the PTS notes written by the actual developers, which literally said that the sets were nerfed to reduce their alpha strike potential (i.e. in PvP) but did not once mention trials or PvE, and you cited... me? And some thread written by a random guy on the forums that didn't even make it to two pages? How is that evidence?ExistingRug61 wrote: »Evidence would suggestExistingRug61 wrote: »When referring to "pre buff" sets, the part you quoted from the patch notes directly defines these as "sets that retain their effect after activating and unequipping them"
This is in the context of PvE as this is where score pushers were doing things like buffing with certain sets and swapping them out before combat started to their normal trial gear. This was not something that was generally done in PvP to my knowledge.
Realistically, things get nerfed sometimes for PvE reasons, and sometimes for PvP reasons, and sometimes for both. Saying its all one way or the other would be counter to what I have observed in past history.
Nowhere in there is PvE insinuated to be the context, and nowhere in the PTS patch notes regarding those changes do the words trial, overland, PvE, or anything even tangentially related to those topics even come up, I have absolutely zero idea where you got that notion. The PTS notes do mention that "alpha strike potential" needed to be addressed with these sets and that's why they were nerfed; dealing huge amounts of burst damage at the start of a fight is generally regarded as a PvP thing, where gankers pop out from invisibility and burst someone down by surprise before they are able to mount a defense. In PvE, the ability to put out sustained damage is regarded as much more valuable. Look, I'm not saying that sets used in PvP have never been nerfed because people in PvE were abusing/exploiting some unforeseen aspect of them to push score in progression groups, but seriously, you're grasping at straws here. This ain't it chief.
It's for PVE. Nobody is prebuffing then removing sets in pvp. Look at the other sets it's lumped in with.
And nobody uses senche's bite in pvp, so no idea what they devs are on about.
Nobody complained about using 7th before entering combat.2 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭relentless_turnip wrote: »
I have combed through the patch notes quite extensively and have not seen where it says that Seventh Legion was being used specifically in PvE. The changes noted are
in PTS 6.3.0 andIn efforts to combat against the effectiveness of “pre-buff” sets, or sets that retain their effect after activating and unequipping them, we’ve made the following adjustments:
These sets now require you to be in combat for their 5-piece bonuses to activate:
All Halls of Fabrication unique sets
Armor Master
Meritorious Service
Moon Dancer
Shroud of the Lich
Spectre’s Eye
Tooth of Lokkestiiz
Undaunted Infiltrator and Weaver
in 6.3.2. Nowhere in there does it say anything about PvE. If anything, the changeIn accordance with the recent change to item sets to not be usable while outside of combat to be manipulated as "pre-buff" sets, the following sets now only grant their effects/activate while in combat:
Elf Bane
Jorvuld's Guidance
Seventh Legion
under Senche's Bite seems to indicate the opposite, that these changes were done to nerf the sets specifically because people were using them to deal a large amount of burst damage right as combat began- guess which aspect of the game features "alpha strike" damage prominently. PvE has always focused on sustained damage to bosses, and while sure, there might be some trial groups cheesing certain fights by prebuffing to get the absolute most DPS they possibly could in order to push their score, it would seem like PvP was the root cause of these sets being nerfed. As is tradition.This change was done to help decrease the amount of alpha strike potential it has before combat has begun
Unless you live under a rock you know what prebuff means. You're purposely being pedantic. It was described in previous patch notes what they meant by "prebuff" and where it was used when clever alchemist etc... Got the same treatment.2 -
Sangwyne✭✭✭✭✭
✭It's for PVE. Nobody is prebuffing then removing sets in pvp. Look at the other sets it's lumped in with.
And nobody uses senche's bite in pvp, so no idea what they devs are on about.
Nobody complained about using 7th before entering combat.
Senche's Bite was nerfed specifically because of its burst potential, it's right in the patch notes, and I'm sure the Devs do actually know what they're on about, because they have the data in front of them to show that it was either being abused or had the potential to be so. Regarding Seventh Legion, as Kurat above me so eloquently put it,
I also took a look at the other sets it's lumped in with and believe you missed something. The only two sets that were changed because people were equipping then unequipping them were Balorgh and StygianNo one uses seventh legion in pve lmao
All nerfs in this game, including these heavy armor ones are because of PVPers whining.
whereas the other 11 sets + all of the Hall of Fabrication sets were nerfed because they were being manipulated as pre-buff sets. No, seriously, check the quotes I cited above. Look, I'm sorry, but all this was clearly just a misunderstanding; I read that entire Elf Bane thread and noticed that people were automatically making assumptions that the sets were being nerfed specifically because trial groups were using them, when nothing in the patch notes backs that statement up.These buffs are no longer retained if you unequip the number of pieces required to activate them:
Balorg
Stygian
This comment in that thread got 15 people to agree, despite none of the comments beforehand even mentioning trials, nothing in the PTS patch notes reflecting that statement, and started a whole chain of conversation about how PvE "score pushing cheese mongers" were getting sets nerfed, with nothing to back it up. Now all of a sudden everyone seems to be in agreement that it's PvE that has gotten these sets nerfed, when all signs point to it being PvP! Look, only the Devs actually know what elements of the game made them decide to nerf these sets in this way, and they haven't told us yet (outside of Senche's Bite). Could I be wrong? Could PvE be at fault for ruining these sets, creating lag in PvP and causing bone cancer in children? Maybe, and if so I will eat crow (sorry Nocturnal), but until then every indication seems to be that PvP players were abusing these sets to nova players from stealth before they could react ("alpha strike potential"). And it's a little frustrating that the thread has been derailed so far off topic; the OP created this thread to discuss how PvP players on the forums had inadvertently (or perhaps intentionally) gotten Heavy armor nerfed, and instead of discussing that, people started pointing fingers at PvE and saying "well they did it first!" and then brought up a set that was most likely nerfed because of PvP as an example! I think this illustrates the whole issue best and hopefully gets us back on track.NeillMcAttack wrote: »Seventh Legion and Dead-water Guile. Two of my favorite sets for Cyro, are getting ruined for the sake of these score pushers.
ZOS, nobody cares about these score pushing cheese mongers! Maybe try not to ruin sets for the majority because you can't figure out a way to fix the actual "problem".
4 -
milllaurie✭✭✭✭It's for PVE. Nobody is prebuffing then removing sets in pvp. Look at the other sets it's lumped in with.
And nobody uses senche's bite in pvp, so no idea what they devs are on about.
Nobody complained about using 7th before entering combat.
Senche's Bite was nerfed specifically because of its burst potential, it's right in the patch notes, and I'm sure the Devs do actually know what they're on about, because they have the data in front of them to show that it was either being abused or had the potential to be so. Regarding Seventh Legion, as Kurat above me so eloquently put it,
I also took a look at the other sets it's lumped in with and believe you missed something. The only two sets that were changed because people were equipping then unequipping them were Balorgh and StygianNo one uses seventh legion in pve lmao
All nerfs in this game, including these heavy armor ones are because of PVPers whining.
whereas the other 11 sets + all of the Hall of Fabrication sets were nerfed because they were being manipulated as pre-buff sets. No, seriously, check the quotes I cited above. Look, I'm sorry, but all this was clearly just a misunderstanding; I read that entire Elf Bane thread and noticed that people were automatically making assumptions that the sets were being nerfed specifically because trial groups were using them, when nothing in the patch notes backs that statement up.These buffs are no longer retained if you unequip the number of pieces required to activate them:
Balorg
Stygian
This comment in that thread got 15 people to agree, despite none of the comments beforehand even mentioning trials, nothing in the PTS patch notes reflecting that statement, and started a whole chain of conversation about how PvE "score pushing cheese mongers" were getting sets nerfed, with nothing to back it up. Now all of a sudden everyone seems to be in agreement that it's PvE that has gotten these sets nerfed, when all signs point to it being PvP! Look, only the Devs actually know what elements of the game made them decide to nerf these sets in this way, and they haven't told us yet (outside of Senche's Bite). Could I be wrong? Could PvE be at fault for ruining these sets, creating lag in PvP and causing bone cancer in children? Maybe, and if so I will eat crow (sorry Nocturnal), but until then every indication seems to be that PvP players were abusing these sets to nova players from stealth before they could react ("alpha strike potential"). And it's a little frustrating that the thread has been derailed so far off topic; the OP created this thread to discuss how PvP players on the forums had inadvertently (or perhaps intentionally) gotten Heavy armor nerfed, and instead of discussing that, people started pointing fingers at PvE and saying "well they did it first!" and then brought up a set that was most likely nerfed because of PvP as an example! I think this illustrates the whole issue best and hopefully gets us back on track.NeillMcAttack wrote: »Seventh Legion and Dead-water Guile. Two of my favorite sets for Cyro, are getting ruined for the sake of these score pushers.
ZOS, nobody cares about these score pushing cheese mongers! Maybe try not to ruin sets for the majority because you can't figure out a way to fix the actual "problem".
So you are saying pvp players were abusing senche, seventh, balorgh and stygian by prebuffing?4 -
ThePedge✭✭✭✭✭It's for PVE. Nobody is prebuffing then removing sets in pvp. Look at the other sets it's lumped in with.
And nobody uses senche's bite in pvp, so no idea what they devs are on about.
Nobody complained about using 7th before entering combat.
Senche's Bite was nerfed specifically because of its burst potential, it's right in the patch notes, and I'm sure the Devs do actually know what they're on about, because they have the data in front of them to show that it was either being abused or had the potential to be so. Regarding Seventh Legion, as Kurat above me so eloquently put it,
I also took a look at the other sets it's lumped in with and believe you missed something. The only two sets that were changed because people were equipping then unequipping them were Balorgh and StygianNo one uses seventh legion in pve lmao
All nerfs in this game, including these heavy armor ones are because of PVPers whining.
whereas the other 11 sets + all of the Hall of Fabrication sets were nerfed because they were being manipulated as pre-buff sets. No, seriously, check the quotes I cited above. Look, I'm sorry, but all this was clearly just a misunderstanding; I read that entire Elf Bane thread and noticed that people were automatically making assumptions that the sets were being nerfed specifically because trial groups were using them, when nothing in the patch notes backs that statement up.These buffs are no longer retained if you unequip the number of pieces required to activate them:
Balorg
Stygian
This comment in that thread got 15 people to agree, despite none of the comments beforehand even mentioning trials, nothing in the PTS patch notes reflecting that statement, and started a whole chain of conversation about how PvE "score pushing cheese mongers" were getting sets nerfed, with nothing to back it up. Now all of a sudden everyone seems to be in agreement that it's PvE that has gotten these sets nerfed, when all signs point to it being PvP! Look, only the Devs actually know what elements of the game made them decide to nerf these sets in this way, and they haven't told us yet (outside of Senche's Bite). Could I be wrong? Could PvE be at fault for ruining these sets, creating lag in PvP and causing bone cancer in children? Maybe, and if so I will eat crow (sorry Nocturnal), but until then every indication seems to be that PvP players were abusing these sets to nova players from stealth before they could react ("alpha strike potential"). And it's a little frustrating that the thread has been derailed so far off topic; the OP created this thread to discuss how PvP players on the forums had inadvertently (or perhaps intentionally) gotten Heavy armor nerfed, and instead of discussing that, people started pointing fingers at PvE and saying "well they did it first!" and then brought up a set that was most likely nerfed because of PvP as an example! I think this illustrates the whole issue best and hopefully gets us back on track.NeillMcAttack wrote: »Seventh Legion and Dead-water Guile. Two of my favorite sets for Cyro, are getting ruined for the sake of these score pushers.
ZOS, nobody cares about these score pushing cheese mongers! Maybe try not to ruin sets for the majority because you can't figure out a way to fix the actual "problem".
Seventh was nerfed because of PvE.3 -
Sangwyne✭✭✭✭✭
✭milllaurie wrote: »So you are saying pvp players were abusing senche, seventh, balorgh and stygian by prebuffing?
Possibly. The PTS specifically calls out Senche's "alpha strike potential", which I don't see as being of much use in PvE, Balorgh for sure is a common sight in PvP, Seventh Legion is hardly a set used in PvE (as Kurat and others pointed out), and Stygian's weapon/spell damage after exiting stealth definitely looks like a targeted nerf at gankers and Nightblades specifically, and I'm sure many NB players are well aware that ZOS has gone after that aspect of the class in the past repeatedly. What I am saying is that there is literally nothing in the PTS notes to support the argument that these sets were nerfed for PvE, only the Devs know the full story, and yet people are outraged because they're 100% sure that it's PvE to blame for nerfing these sets that are pretty much only used in PvP. And this thread, which was intended to discuss the changes to Heavy armor brought about as a result of PvP players, has been hijacked by PvP players pointing fingers at PvE and saying "see? they started it by getting our sets nerfed" and then using sets that were likely nerfed because PvP players were exploiting them as examples.
Seventh was nerfed because of PvE.
Cite your sources. Or don't, actually, because there's nothing to support that argument, and this thread is supposed to discuss Heavy armor changes on the PTS and not why PvE players are at fault for nerfing your favorite PvP sets.
Regarding the OP: While magic-wielding orc thieves in Heavy armor are... certainly not the first character concept I'd make, I've always supported the idea that games should allow players of all stripes to craft their own playstyle and enjoy it as they like. I doubt you'd be able to take that into trials, but the game has always been setup so that practically anything goes in overland content, given that even 3k DPS is probably sufficient to complete the main questline and the Story quests in each zone, and it's a little unfortunate that with this change, Heavy armor users are effectively locked out from doing Vvardenfell main Story quests, alongside content from the Dark Brotherhood and Thieves Guild. If ZOS wants to make tanking vet trials in anything but Heavy armor impossible, require Magicka users to wear Light armor to output sufficient DPS for the various DPS checks in dungeons, and demand that Stamina players wear Medium to be able to compete with Magicka builds in vet DLC content, that's fine, but overland should be flexible enough to allow for any build to complete its content.Edited by Sangwyne on March 4, 2021 10:23AM3 -
ThePedge✭✭✭✭✭milllaurie wrote: »So you are saying pvp players were abusing senche, seventh, balorgh and stygian by prebuffing?
Possibly. The PTS specifically calls out Senche's "alpha strike potential", which I don't see as being of much use in PvE, Balorgh for sure is a common sight in PvP, Seventh Legion is hardly a set used in PvE (as Kurat and others pointed out), and Stygian's weapon/spell damage after exiting stealth definitely looks like a targeted nerf at gankers and Nightblades specifically, and I'm sure many NB players are well aware that ZOS has gone after that aspect of the class in the past repeatedly. What I am saying is that there is literally nothing in the PTS notes to support the argument that these sets were nerfed for PvE, only the Devs know the full story, and yet people are outraged because they're 100% sure that it's PvE to blame for nerfing these sets that are pretty much only used in PvP. And this thread, which was intended to discuss the changes to Heavy armor brought about as a result of PvP players, has been hijacked by PvP players pointing fingers at PvE and saying "see? they started it by getting our sets nerfed" and then using sets that were likely nerfed because PvP players were exploiting them as examples.
Seventh was nerfed because of PvE.
Cite your sources. Or don't, actually, because there's nothing to support that argument, and this thread is supposed to discuss Heavy armor changes on the PTS and not why PvE players are at fault for nerfing your favorite PvP sets.
Regarding the OP: While magic-wielding orc thieves in Heavy armor are... certainly not the first character concept I'd make, I've always supported the idea that games should allow players of all stripes to craft their own playstyle and enjoy it as they like. I doubt you'd be able to take that into trials, but the game has always been setup so that practically anything goes in overland content, given that even 3k DPS is probably sufficient to complete the main questline and the Story quests in each zone, and it's a little unfortunate that with this change, Heavy armor users are effectively locked out from doing Vvardenfell main Story quests, alongside content from the Dark Brotherhood and Thieves Guild. If ZOS wants to make tanking vet trials in anything but Heavy armor impossible, require Magicka users to wear Light armor to output sufficient DPS for the various DPS checks in dungeons, and demand that Stamina players wear Medium to be able to compete with Magicka builds in vet DLC content, that's fine, but overland should be flexible enough to allow for any build to complete its content.
The PTS patch notes. 6.3.0 where they define pre-buffing, then expand on it in later patch by adding those sets.
Each Armour type is balanced and designed a purpose, you are not locked out from any content, just change your armour.
You claim to be a tank, a tank takes the aggression and taunts enemies, not sneak past them.Edited by ThePedge on March 4, 2021 10:58AM1 -
Scardan✭✭✭✭✭Heavy armor users are effectively locked out from doing Vvardenfell main Story quests, alongside content from the Dark Brotherhood and Thieves Guild.
Nobody is locked out from any content by the game itself. it is all about the desire and unwillingness to adapt and use different opportunities to achieve their goals.
Let's be extremely precise in our use of terms.3 -
Sangwyne✭✭✭✭✭
✭
The PTS patch notes. 6.3.0 where they define pre-buffing, then expand on it in later patch by adding those sets.
Each Armour type is balanced and designed a purpose, you are not locked out from any content, just change your armour.
You claim to be a tank, a tank takes the aggression and taunts enemies, not sneak past them.
Then again based on your recent argument of "these patch notes which directly support your claim, do not support your claim", I doubt there is any chance of changing your mind.
Simply saying something repeatedly does not make it true. I have quoted directly from the PTS notes multiple times to back up my statements, but have yet to see any evidence, quotes, or official statements, PTS or otherwise, to support your argument, just the same claim that pre-buffing means PvE; gankers could easily prebuff to burst someone from stealth. So why don't we try a different track? Let's look at other changes in the PTS to see if we can get a glimpse of where the Devs are going with this. In the same PTS 6.3.0 where they mention changing sets due to "pre-buffing", they also change Solar Flare to be "less bursty".
So they want to reduce burst, but help the DPS go up. HMMMM. Now let's look at Snipe.Solar Flare:
Reduced the cast time of this ability and the Dark Flare morph to 0.8 seconds, down from 1 second.
Reduced the damage done by approximately 21%.
Reduced the cost of all versions of this ability to 2700, down from 2970.
Developer Comment:
Spoiler
Similar to other cast time abilities, we’ve taken the approach for a quicker cast time to help make this ability easier to weave within the 1 second global cooldown. This should also help reduce burst, potentially when combined with other high hitting attacks, but help the DPS go up by making it smoother to use and easier to sustain.
Let me ask you a question, where do you mostly see Snipe being used? And why is it used there? Because it has delayed damage and sometimes bugs out, allowing for multiple hits in the same interval. Also, note the same intent is to reduce burst but help their usage in a rotation. HMMM. They even use the same language as when they nerfed Senche's Bite: "alpha strike attacks". Why would they want to make the skills more potent while used in a rotation if PvE players are abusing Snipe, Solar Flare and the sets to min-max their DPS, but only at the start of the fight? Fights in trials can sometimes last several minutes, wouldn't the additional DPS be BETTER against a boss than the small amount of burst they lost? Which aspect of the game cares more about burst than sustained DPS? Look, PvE might be really convenient as a scapegoat for all these changes, but all the evidence is pointing the other direction.Snipe:
Reduced the cast time of these abilities to 0.8 seconds, down from 1 second.
This ability and its morphs now have a much faster, smoother animation to support their new cast time.
Reduced the damage done by approximately 21%.
Reduced the base cost to 2700, down from 3240.
Increased the travel speed slightly to help reduce the ability to fire off multiple projectiles before the original projectile landed.
Focused Aim (morph): This morph now ranks up in cost reduction, rather than 1.1% damage per rank. The final cost is now 2430.
Developer Comment:
Spoiler
Similar to the Solar Flare changes this update and Crystal Shards a few updates ago, we wanted to make these abilities less bursty in nature while helping their fluid usage in rapid succession, making them less potent at combining into deadly alpha strike attacks and more potent while used in a rotation.4 -
ExistingRug61✭✭✭✭ExistingRug61 wrote: »"there might be some trial groups cheesing certain fights by prebuffing to get the absolute most DPS they possibly could in order to push their score"
Evidence would suggest this, not pvp, was the reason for these specific changes.
It is further discussed in this thread, initially focused on Elf Bane, but also in the context of the other sets changed, including seventh legion.:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/561168/elf-bane-needs-to-be-reverted
...WHAT evidence??? I cited the PTS notes written by the actual developers, which literally said that the sets were nerfed to reduce their alpha strike potential (i.e. in PvP) but did not once mention trials or PvE, and you cited... me? And some thread written by a random guy on the forums that didn't even make it to two pages? How is that evidence?ExistingRug61 wrote: »Evidence would suggestExistingRug61 wrote: »When referring to "pre buff" sets, the part you quoted from the patch notes directly defines these as "sets that retain their effect after activating and unequipping them"
This is in the context of PvE as this is where score pushers were doing things like buffing with certain sets and swapping them out before combat started to their normal trial gear. This was not something that was generally done in PvP to my knowledge.
Realistically, things get nerfed sometimes for PvE reasons, and sometimes for PvP reasons, and sometimes for both. Saying its all one way or the other would be counter to what I have observed in past history.
Nowhere in there is PvE insinuated to be the context, and nowhere in the PTS patch notes regarding those changes do the words trial, overland, PvE, or anything even tangentially related to those topics even come up, I have absolutely zero idea where you got that notion. The PTS notes do mention that "alpha strike potential" needed to be addressed with these sets and that's why they were nerfed; dealing huge amounts of burst damage at the start of a fight is generally regarded as a PvP thing, where gankers pop out from invisibility and burst someone down by surprise before they are able to mount a defense. In PvE, the ability to put out sustained damage is regarded as much more valuable. Look, I'm not saying that sets used in PvP have never been nerfed because people in PvE were abusing/exploiting some unforeseen aspect of them to push score in progression groups, but seriously, you're grasping at straws here. This ain't it chief.
I would counter that by saying that nowhere in the patch notes does it indicate that pre-buffing is related to PvP either.
That link was one you have drawn based on the fact that Senche was also changed, and that the list of pre buff sets must have been changed for the same reason as Senche, even though they were in different sections of the patch notes with different explanations (thus indicating that it was likely that the reasons for Senche's change was not the same as the reasons for the pre buff sets change).
As such, citing the patch notes in isolation does not clearly indicate one way or the other.
Thus we must look to further outside context, and this is where I believe the evidence supports the idea that pre-buffing is a PvE thing.
This evidence is things such as the following PvE guide on pre buffing and its use for score pushing:
https://eso-u.com/articles/prebuff_sets_what_are_they_and_how_do_they_work
Given that the affected sets in the "Pre Buff" list in the patch notes include all the sets explicitly described in the linked endgame PvE guide using those sets for score pushing and also calls them "Pre Buff" sets, that would suggest to me the changes to sets in that list is targeted at stopping that practice in PvE.
Yes there are cases for using sets for alpha strikes in PvP as well for ganking, Clever Alchemist being a likely example of this.
Senche's Bite could also be an an example of this, like you identify. But note that in the patch notes Senches bite wasn't described as a "pre buff" set and wasn't included in the pre-buff list like all the others, suggesting that the motivation for its change was different (ie: Senche for one reason being alpha strike in PvP, and the pre buff sets for another reason being pre buffing in PvE). So using it to draw a link from the pre-buff sets to alpha strike to PvP I feel is a bit of a long bow to draw.
Edited by ExistingRug61 on March 4, 2021 11:30AM3 -
ThePedge✭✭✭✭✭
The PTS patch notes. 6.3.0 where they define pre-buffing, then expand on it in later patch by adding those sets.
Each Armour type is balanced and designed a purpose, you are not locked out from any content, just change your armour.
You claim to be a tank, a tank takes the aggression and taunts enemies, not sneak past them.
Then again based on your recent argument of "these patch notes which directly support your claim, do not support your claim", I doubt there is any chance of changing your mind.
Simply saying something repeatedly does not make it true. I have quoted directly from the PTS notes multiple times to back up my statements, but have yet to see any evidence, quotes, or official statements, PTS or otherwise, to support your argument, just the same claim that pre-buffing means PvE; gankers could easily prebuff to burst someone from stealth. So why don't we try a different track? Let's look at other changes in the PTS to see if we can get a glimpse of where the Devs are going with this. In the same PTS 6.3.0 where they mention changing sets due to "pre-buffing", they also change Solar Flare to be "less bursty".
So they want to reduce burst, but help the DPS go up. HMMMM. Now let's look at Snipe.Solar Flare:
Reduced the cast time of this ability and the Dark Flare morph to 0.8 seconds, down from 1 second.
Reduced the damage done by approximately 21%.
Reduced the cost of all versions of this ability to 2700, down from 2970.
Developer Comment:
Spoiler
Similar to other cast time abilities, we’ve taken the approach for a quicker cast time to help make this ability easier to weave within the 1 second global cooldown. This should also help reduce burst, potentially when combined with other high hitting attacks, but help the DPS go up by making it smoother to use and easier to sustain.
Let me ask you a question, where do you mostly see Snipe being used? And why is it used there? Because it has delayed damage and sometimes bugs out, allowing for multiple hits in the same interval. Also, note the same intent is to reduce burst but help their usage in a rotation. HMMM. They even use the same language as when they nerfed Senche's Bite: "alpha strike attacks". Why would they want to make the skills more potent while used in a rotation if PvE players are abusing Snipe, Solar Flare and the sets to min-max their DPS, but only at the start of the fight? Fights in trials can sometimes last several minutes, wouldn't the additional DPS be BETTER against a boss than the small amount of burst they lost? Which aspect of the game cares more about burst than sustained DPS? Look, PvE might be really convenient as a scapegoat for all these changes, but all the evidence is pointing the other direction.Snipe:
Reduced the cast time of these abilities to 0.8 seconds, down from 1 second.
This ability and its morphs now have a much faster, smoother animation to support their new cast time.
Reduced the damage done by approximately 21%.
Reduced the base cost to 2700, down from 3240.
Increased the travel speed slightly to help reduce the ability to fire off multiple projectiles before the original projectile landed.
Focused Aim (morph): This morph now ranks up in cost reduction, rather than 1.1% damage per rank. The final cost is now 2430.
Developer Comment:
Spoiler
Similar to the Solar Flare changes this update and Crystal Shards a few updates ago, we wanted to make these abilities less bursty in nature while helping their fluid usage in rapid succession, making them less potent at combining into deadly alpha strike attacks and more potent while used in a rotation.
So you keep reading the PTS notes, but can not understand them. That's OK.1 -
Sangwyne✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Woah there Nelly, I'm not trying to pin all this on PvP. This thread started as a discussion on how Heavy armor passives were nerfed because of PvP, which goes without saying, as the armor passives were specifically set up to try and create a rock-paper-scissors effect between Light, Medium, and Heavy, and has more than enough official documentation. Rather than accept that PvP has caused issues for players in PvE by getting certain playstyles nerfed, somehow the conversation shifted to blaming PvE for getting 7th legion and multiple other sets nerfed, which simply had no basis. I have no stake in the fight regarding PvP sets being nerfed because of PvE and am perfectly willing to admit that there are almost certainly times that it has happened; I just don't like when PvP players coopt threads regarding stuff that pertains to changes in PvE with bad-faith arguments about how PvE players are somehow actually the ones at fault for a completely different set of changes, and wanted to clarify what was almost certainly actually happening instead.ExistingRug61 wrote: »I would counter that by saying that nowhere in the patch notes does it indicate that pre-buffing is related to PvP either.ExistingRug61 wrote: »That link was one you have drawn based on the fact that Senche was also changed, and that the list of pre buff sets must have been changed for the same reason as Senche, even though they were in different sections of the patch notes with different explanations (thus indicating that it was likely that the reasons for Senche's change was not the same as the reasons for the pre buff sets change).
As such, citing the patch notes in isolation does not clearly indicate one way or the other.
Thus we must look to further outside context, and this is where I believe the evidence supports the idea that pre-buffing is a PvE thing.
This evidence is things such as the following PvE guide on pre buffing and its use for score pushing:
https://eso-u.com/articles/prebuff_sets_what_are_they_and_how_do_they_work
Given that the affected sets in the "Pre Buff" list in the patch notes include all the sets explicitly described in the linked endgame PvE guide using those sets for score pushing and also calls them "Pre Buff" sets, that would suggest to me the changes to sets in that list is targeted at stopping that practice in PvE.
Yes there are cases for using sets for alpha strikes in PvP as well for ganking, Clever Alchemist being a likely example of this.
Senche's Bite could also be an an example of this, like you identify. But note that in the patch notes Senches bite wasn't described as a "pre buff" set and wasn't included in the pre-buff list like all the others, suggesting that the motivation for its change was different (ie: Senche for one reason being alpha strike in PvP, and the pre buff sets for another reason being pre buffing in PvE). So using it to draw a link from the pre-buff sets to alpha strike to PvP I feel is a bit of a long bow to draw.
I did look to outside context, specifically in the case of Snipe and Solar Flare, which used almost the exact same language to describe the "alpha strike" preemptive strike damage capabilities that were referenced in many other sets in the same PTS. Also, there is usually a general theme behind changes taking place in patch notes aimed at addressing problematic aspects of the meta, which we can use to extrapolate that changes to Snipe and Solar Flare were part of a larger effort that also happened to encompass these changes to sets. It's abundantly clear that ZOS specifically targeted burst, preemptive buffing, players getting a small boost for a small duration of time before entering combat, whatever you want to call it, but the fact remains those strategies remain of limited use in trial and dungeon environments and considerably more use in PvP. ZOS has gone after gankers, Nightblades, and one-shots in PvP before, with nerfs to Nightblade Weapon/Spell damage while flanking specifically to cut down on their ability to burst from stealth and 100-0 their targets with no counterplay. Just look at the nerf to Stygian. And I don't believe that citing random threads about Elf Bane or ESO-U articles on the potential for these sets to be used in trial environments is a fair avenue to take, as it's simply speculation; the players making those threads aren't the ones making these changes, the Devs are, and the Devs have clearly stated in these patch notes that the changes were made to address "pre-buffing" and "burst". We are all well aware of which aspect of the game utilizes those particular playstyles more. There's really not much more that can be proved without an actual Developer coming into the thread to chime in with knowledge regarding their intent behind the changes. @ZOS_GinaBruno? Would you care to comment and clear up all this confusion for us please?0 -
Vizirith✭✭✭✭All pre-buffing is only ever done in pve. Nobody prebuffs in pvp. The only very theoretical situation would be in duels and a bomber. But people in duels would obviously see what you are doing and never duel you again. Bombers are so very niche and most I've seen don't prebuff anyway.
Stygian was a pve nerf. It falls under the same pre-buff nerf. Seventh Legion was a pre-buff nerf.
It is pretty obvious you have never pvp'd before, nobody in their right mind would use pre-buff sets what with staying in combat and randomly entering it. I can't tell you how many times I've had rapids stuck on my bar because I randomly entered combat and never got out. Pre-buffing sets would end up being the main sets you'd enter fights with around 1/3rd the time, as you'd enter combat with them on. Longer pvp fights can last over an hour. Stygian and seventh legion would be able to pre-buff you for 0.4% of the duration of an hour fight, what an amazingly op mechanic.
PVP will nearly always be more sensitive to balance than pve. For 95% of the pve content gear/builds don't matter all that much. I have around 10 characters I play and sometimes don't want to swap around to get the pve gear, so I just do content in my pvp gear. Can solo all solo-able vet non-dlc dungeons on pretty much any toon in pvp gear. Is a 2h/SnB stamsorc in stuhns/unfathomable/engine guardian / malacath rocking not a single aoe besides streak meta in pve (don't even change abilities most of the time)? No but it works for most pve content.2 -
Sangwyne✭✭✭✭✭
✭So you keep reading the PTS notes, but can not understand them. That's OK.
To the contrary, I think I've managed to sum up the gist of the patch notes quite well, but I'm not so sure the same can be said regarding your grasp of my comments. I'll try to include a TLDR for you next time.All pre-buffing is only ever done in pve. Nobody prebuffs in pvp.
Stygian was a pve nerf. It falls under the same pre-buff nerf. Seventh Legion was a pre-buff nerf.
It is pretty obvious you have never pvp'd before, nobody in their right mind would use pre-buff sets
Bombers, gankers, and many other types of players in PvP use pre-buff sets, these are literally names for entire archetypes of players whose only goal it is to pre-buff as much as possible before unloading as much damage as possible in a single rotation. Saying "noone" pre-buffs in PvP makes me think that either we haven't played the same game, or perhaps I've simply had a little bit more experience dealing with those types of players in recent memory. Either way, claiming I've never played PvP and "nobody in their right mind would use pre-buff sets" contributes nothing to the discussion; obviously some people were abusing them this way, or they would not have been changed.0 -
Vizirith✭✭✭✭So you keep reading the PTS notes, but can not understand them. That's OK.
To the contrary, I think I've managed to sum up the gist of the patch notes quite well, but I'm not so sure the same can be said regarding your grasp of my comments. I'll try to include a TLDR for you next time.All pre-buffing is only ever done in pve. Nobody prebuffs in pvp.
Stygian was a pve nerf. It falls under the same pre-buff nerf. Seventh Legion was a pre-buff nerf.
It is pretty obvious you have never pvp'd before, nobody in their right mind would use pre-buff sets
Bombers, gankers, and many other types of players in PvP use pre-buff sets, these are literally names for entire archetypes of players whose only goal it is to pre-buff as much as possible before unloading as much damage as possible in a single rotation. Saying "noone" pre-buffs in PvP makes me think that either we haven't played the same game, or perhaps I've simply had a little bit more experience dealing with those types of players in recent memory. Either way, claiming I've never played PvP and "nobody in their right mind would use pre-buff sets" contributes nothing to the discussion; obviously some people were abusing them this way, or they would not have been changed.
Yeah I've never seen anybody pre-buff in pvp outside true gankers or bombers and even then it's rare. And yeah I agree some people are abusing them but my guess is it's the people who have very clear in/out of combat times, shorter fights, no surprise enemies, enemies who don't play defensive or los, enemies who don't pressure you as the bigger threat etc. All of which make pre-buffing much better. That tends to happen more in pve, but please let me know if a dungeon boss starts to adapt and learn, because then we've got a problem.2 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭There is no point arguing with him. He knows what prebuff sets are, when and why they are primarily used. He is using recent patch notes to be pedantic, even though zos have previously described when prebuffing happens and why they feel the adjustment is necessary.
Instead of calming PVE/PvP tensions this actually perpetuates it. Some stuff gets nerfed for PvP and some for PVE. Prebuff sets(described as such when used in a PVE context) are undoubtedly being adjusted because of unintended use in trials. That isn't to say many things haven't been adjusted due to their use or over use in PvP... You are simply quoting the patch notes out of context to perpetuate an argument, when I have no doubt you understand why they were adjusted.3 -
ThePedge✭✭✭✭✭Just realised it's not even OP, it's the guy who thinks Medium Armour is going to be meta.
So on topic: armour archetypes are a thing and if you want to be stealthy you are advised to change armour. I don't go to work meetings in a tracksuit.
Off-topic: Sets were changed due to strength in pre-buffing for PvE.4 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Just realised it's not even OP, it's the guy who thinks Medium Armour is going to be meta.
So on topic: armour archetypes are a thing and if you want to be stealthy you are advised to change armour. I don't go to work meetings in a tracksuit.
Off-topic: Sets were changed due to strength in pre-buffing for PvE.
Haha I enjoyed this response! Nicely done sir 😂0
