XP/CP formula in CP 2.0

Teeba_Shei · February 2021

Horizontal progression is a meme. You spend 3k gold and you get the same horizontal progression.

stefj68 · February 2021

well it seems that its not 1200cp but 1020cp for the new cap

we all hope that we will scale up according to the new table, but watch again the video...

when someone asked, if i got 500 cp in the current system, would i have 500 points to spend on the new system and they answer was yes...

according to the new curved right now, 500cp -> 631cp(new)
but they said you will have the same amount... so you will end up with 500?

its funny how unclear things are with zos

their is 2 things that needs to be clarified

1) is the new cap 1200 like mentionned, or 1020 current on pts right now?
2) will our current cp scales up to the new experience table... according to the video it does'nt

thanks

MashmalloMan · February 2021

stefj68 wrote: »

1) is the new cap 1200 like mentionned, or 1020 current on pts right now?

They never said the cap was 1200, they said 1200 was where they feel you could complete a role (DPS, Healer, Tank) . At least from a DPS perspective (probably over 50% of the playerbase) this seems to be true as of the recent patch.

Blue Tree:

4 slottables = 200
1040 stamina = 40
640 crit = 40
1400 pen = 40
100 weapon damage for martial abilities = 30
+60% status effect chance = 40 (this one is the last one you should add with the least amount of impact, so really, level 1050 would be enough)

Total: 390 blue points (350 without status effect chance)
Level required: 1170

For the red tree, very little of it makes a difference for DPS, but you can get a ton of sustain there... not that it's needed because sustain on PTS is now absurd. The only relevant DPS stars I went for was:

+15% damage to shields = 50 (slottable, gotta spend some points to get to)
+150 stam/mag/hp reg = 50 (slottable, no path to buy)
Health = forget the amount, probably 40, passive.

The rest was just extra, I picked up 1500 stamina return on kill slottable(not needed for pve at all) and health slottable.

stefj68 wrote: »

2) will our current cp scales up to the new experience table... according to the video it does'nt

No. It will not. Unless something changes, they've already confirmed our levels won't change and they didn't change when we logged into the PTS.

This applies to PVE, in PVP, any bonus you get for combat is useful in 1 way or another so in PVP, higher CP can make a difference since you can purchase passives other players won't be able to get until they're 1400..1700, etc. Like someone with more points than level 1170 can get 4% healing done, 1040 magicka, reduced sprint, roll dodge, break free and block cost, bash damage.. from the perspective of a stamina dps.

Duplomancer · February 2021

Huh, I thought they were talking about 1200 being where the exp gain would start to feel like it does now for max lvl (in CP 1.0). Will have to go back and watch that again.

Xebov · February 2021

MashmalloMan wrote: »

They never said the cap was 1200, they said 1200 was where they feel you could complete a role (DPS, Healer, Tank) . At least from a DPS perspective (probably over 50% of the playerbase) this seems to be true as of the recent patch.

That is only true if you focus on passives directly linked to your role (defence for Tanks, offense for DD/Healer) and if you focus on 4 Slotables. So there is no room for extras or choice slotables. Its the base line and getting there is taking you ~2.0-2.5 times the time coimpared to the old max of 810.
For Tanks i can tell you that i wasnt able to get all relevant things with 1350CP. This is also the main problem of the CP system. Technically it would enable players to have several slotables to choose from for their situation and enable them to have more than one role or fill hybrid roles without repecing. However the huge amounts of XP needed to achieve this will make it impossible to do. Even worse its a step back from the current system where it is partially possible.

Ranger209 · February 2021

Every time they raised the cap by 30 points up to 810 it changed the scale at which CP was gained. Every time they changed it a person getting their first CP took less experience to gain that CP 1 than it did for the person the day before they changed it. Every time they changed it a person who was already above cap incurred the 1.5X penalty to gaining his or her next CP.
Some people incurred this penalty in the 500's, some in the 600's, and so on. For others they did not incur that penalty at those levels since they did not go through them while they were capped, but after the cap had been raised beyond that point.
This whole I have this much XP and so I should now get this much CP according to the new scale flies in the face of what they did every time they previously raised the cap. We did not get adjustments each time they raised the cap, and should not at this point either.

My concern is with the curve moving forward and how fast or slow CP will be gained from here on out. I don't know what their mind set is on how fast they want it to be gained. Obviously they don't want everyone setting at 3600 overnight, nor do they want it to take 10 years for the most diligent grinders to get there and 20 years for casuals. They want to build on the system, and actually have people use the new things that they put into the system over time. Putting new things into the system that no one has enough CP to use is fairly pointless. They will be monitoring this very closely and adjusting as needed to meet their goals. This is something that will change over time as it always has since they implemented the very first CP cap.

Being there are now 3600 spendable CP rather than only 810 perhaps they need more than 1 break point with less and more severe penalties than the CP 1.0 incorporates. Maybe something like a 1.1x penalty at 1200, a 1.3x penalty at 1800, a 1.5x penalty at 2400, a 1.7x penalty at 3000, and a 2x penalty at 3600, assuming we will still be able to earn more than 3600 even if the spendable cap is only 3600 will still apply, is a more compatible method of staging XP gain with 3600 usable CP rather than only 810 usable. Changing the value in the formula from 810, or currently 1020 to 3600 would allow the first 1200 CP to be earned very fast. This would get people immersed in the system rather quickly. Then after that happens start incrementally slowing it down so that players don't feel the crunch so hard and so quickly.

I think they need to look at their overall goal and ask the question " how long do we want a day 1 player to take to max out their CP knowing that the CP max will change over time?" Then try to ascertain how fast the average player will gain XP and incorporate an experience curve system that will allow that much XP to be gained in that much time so that the experience is fun and rewarding, and their goal is met. They could also look at decreasing the amount of experience required to hit level 50 as well in the whole grand scheme of things when trying to figure out this long view of a new day 1 player and their quest to become a max level character. More than anything they need to get this right to make it realistic for new players to not feel overwhelmed at developing their characters. If they do that right we veterans will be just fine.

Ekzorka · February 2021

Well

remosito · February 2021

Ranger209 wrote: »

Every time they raised the cap by 30 points up to 810 it changed the scale at which CP was gained. Every time they changed it a person getting their first CP took less experience to gain that CP 1 than it did for the person the day before they changed it. Every time they changed it a person who was already above cap incurred the 1.5X penalty to gaining his or her next CP.
Some people incurred this penalty in the 500's, some in the 600's, and so on. For others they did not incur that penalty at those levels since they did not go through them while they were capped, but after the cap had been raised beyond that point.
This whole I have this much XP and so I should now get this much CP according to the new scale flies in the face of what they did every time they previously raised the cap. We did not get adjustments each time they raised the cap, and should not at this point either.

And if they had gone forward with increasing the cap in the calculations every update our curve would have continually been flattened and a big chunk of our exp would have been gained during flatter curves and we all would be higher CP by now.

ZOS *** up and took almost 30 months to figure something out. Not OUR fault and we shouldnt be punished for their incompetence.

Least they can do is give us back a part of that lost CP. As I have proposed elsewhere. Just a fifty/fifty. ( CPv1.0(MyExp) + CPv2.0(MyExp) ) /2

Ranger209 wrote: »

Being there are now 3600 spendable CP rather than only 810 perhaps they need more than 1 break point with less and more severe penalties than the CP 1.0 incorporates. Maybe something like a 1.1x penalty at 1200, a 1.3x penalty at 1800, a 1.5x penalty at 2400, a 1.7x penalty at 3000, and a 2x penalty at 3600, assuming we will still be able to earn more than 3600 even if the spendable cap is only 3600 will still apply, is a more compatible method of staging XP gain with 3600 usable CP rather than only 810 usable. Changing the value in the formula from 810, or currently 1020 to 3600 would allow the first 1200 CP to be earned very fast. This would get people immersed in the system rather quickly. Then after that happens start incrementally slowing it down so that players don't feel the crunch so hard and so quickly.

I like that non-linear penalty a lot!

Added two new columns to my spreadsheet with 1.2, 1.4, 1.6, 1.8, 2.0, 2.5x penalties....

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1uS2H-elnpVngKOMBqwl3LHytDHSOBwmDfDoQHHOtoh4/edit?usp=sharing

Ranger209 · February 2021

remosito wrote: »

Ranger209 wrote: »

Every time they raised the cap by 30 points up to 810 it changed the scale at which CP was gained. Every time they changed it a person getting their first CP took less experience to gain that CP 1 than it did for the person the day before they changed it. Every time they changed it a person who was already above cap incurred the 1.5X penalty to gaining his or her next CP.
Some people incurred this penalty in the 500's, some in the 600's, and so on. For others they did not incur that penalty at those levels since they did not go through them while they were capped, but after the cap had been raised beyond that point.
This whole I have this much XP and so I should now get this much CP according to the new scale flies in the face of what they did every time they previously raised the cap. We did not get adjustments each time they raised the cap, and should not at this point either.

And if they had gone forward with increasing the cap in the calculations every update our curve would have continually been flattened and a big chunk of our exp would have been gained during flatter curves and we all would be higher CP by now.

ZOS *** up and took almost 30 months to figure something out. Not OUR fault and we shouldnt be punished for their incompetence.

Least they can do is give us back a part of that lost CP. As I have proposed elsewhere. Just a fifty/fifty. ( CPv1.0(MyExp) + CPv2.0(MyExp) ) /2

Ranger209 wrote: »

Being there are now 3600 spendable CP rather than only 810 perhaps they need more than 1 break point with less and more severe penalties than the CP 1.0 incorporates. Maybe something like a 1.1x penalty at 1200, a 1.3x penalty at 1800, a 1.5x penalty at 2400, a 1.7x penalty at 3000, and a 2x penalty at 3600, assuming we will still be able to earn more than 3600 even if the spendable cap is only 3600 will still apply, is a more compatible method of staging XP gain with 3600 usable CP rather than only 810 usable. Changing the value in the formula from 810, or currently 1020 to 3600 would allow the first 1200 CP to be earned very fast. This would get people immersed in the system rather quickly. Then after that happens start incrementally slowing it down so that players don't feel the crunch so hard and so quickly.

I like that non-linear penalty a lot!

Added two new columns to my spreadsheet with 1.2, 1.4, 1.6, 1.8, 2.0, 2.5x penalties....

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1uS2H-elnpVngKOMBqwl3LHytDHSOBwmDfDoQHHOtoh4/edit?usp=sharing

The issue is why have a penalty at all if at some point in time you are just going to give everyone free CP to adjust them to some new scale in the future. I'm fine with the 1200 CP I have, but that is just me. Again I am more concerned with the rate of speed new CP will be gained and that it is at a reasonable level.

Xebov · February 2021

Ranger209 wrote: »

Being there are now 3600 spendable CP rather than only 810 perhaps they need more than 1 break point with less and more severe penalties than the CP 1.0 incorporates. Maybe something like a 1.1x penalty at 1200, a 1.3x penalty at 1800, a 1.5x penalty at 2400, a 1.7x penalty at 3000, and a 2x penalty at 3600, assuming we will still be able to earn more than 3600 even if the spendable cap is only 3600 will still apply, is a more compatible method of staging XP gain with 3600 usable CP rather than only 810 usable. Changing the value in the formula from 810, or currently 1020 to 3600 would allow the first 1200 CP to be earned very fast. This would get people immersed in the system rather quickly. Then after that happens start incrementally slowing it down so that players don't feel the crunch so hard and so quickly.

What would be the goal behind it.

As i see it the huge horizontal progression inside the tree would allow players to spec for several roles or hybrid roles inside the CP system and just switch between them on will. Something the current system only partially provides.

I get the strong feeling when it comes to soft caps what most players look at are simple DD players that simply have their DD setup and are not interested in all the other things. For them everything beyond vertical progression + 4 actives is just eye candy. What about the Tanks that want to be able to fill off tank roles as well and might want to go into a more DPS oriented way to do solo arenas? What about healers that want to go into DD hybrid or PvP roles? For these combinations the new system would provide a way of switching roles on the fly. Except that it cant because we have such horrendous XP needs that most players can be happy if they gather all the relevant stuff for a single role.

exeeter702 · February 2021

Xebov wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

They never said the cap was 1200, they said 1200 was where they feel you could complete a role (DPS, Healer, Tank) . At least from a DPS perspective (probably over 50% of the playerbase) this seems to be true as of the recent patch.

That is only true if you focus on passives directly linked to your role (defence for Tanks, offense for DD/Healer) and if you focus on 4 Slotables. So there is no room for extras or choice slotables. Its the base line and getting there is taking you ~2.0-2.5 times the time coimpared to the old max of 810.
For Tanks i can tell you that i wasnt able to get all relevant things with 1350CP. This is also the main problem of the CP system. Technically it would enable players to have several slotables to choose from for their situation and enable them to have more than one role or fill hybrid roles without repecing. However the huge amounts of XP needed to achieve this will make it impossible to do. Even worse its a step back from the current system where it is partially possible.

Yes, that is correct. A newer player with less cp has the ability to focus on a single role for thier character and not be wildly behind in performance and if they wish to re specialize, they are faced with a respec cost. Players who have invested more time have the freedom to be more flexible with their build without the need to respec.

I realize this is only partially true as the unslotted passives make a difference, especially in pvp, but at some point there is going to be a power gap, but sitting at 1/3 the cp cap now (270cp) as a dps, they are far behind a dps that is at 810cp, whereas I dont believe the power gap between 1200 and 3600 for a dps role for example will be as large.

Ranger209 · February 2021

Xebov wrote: »

Ranger209 wrote: »

Being there are now 3600 spendable CP rather than only 810 perhaps they need more than 1 break point with less and more severe penalties than the CP 1.0 incorporates. Maybe something like a 1.1x penalty at 1200, a 1.3x penalty at 1800, a 1.5x penalty at 2400, a 1.7x penalty at 3000, and a 2x penalty at 3600, assuming we will still be able to earn more than 3600 even if the spendable cap is only 3600 will still apply, is a more compatible method of staging XP gain with 3600 usable CP rather than only 810 usable. Changing the value in the formula from 810, or currently 1020 to 3600 would allow the first 1200 CP to be earned very fast. This would get people immersed in the system rather quickly. Then after that happens start incrementally slowing it down so that players don't feel the crunch so hard and so quickly.

What would be the goal behind it.

As i see it the huge horizontal progression inside the tree would allow players to spec for several roles or hybrid roles inside the CP system and just switch between them on will. Something the current system only partially provides.

I get the strong feeling when it comes to soft caps what most players look at are simple DD players that simply have their DD setup and are not interested in all the other things. For them everything beyond vertical progression + 4 actives is just eye candy. What about the Tanks that want to be able to fill off tank roles as well and might want to go into a more DPS oriented way to do solo arenas? What about healers that want to go into DD hybrid or PvP roles? For these combinations the new system would provide a way of switching roles on the fly. Except that it cant because we have such horrendous XP needs that most players can be happy if they gather all the relevant stuff for a single role.

The goal behind it, assuming they are not moving the 1.5x modifier for experience to after 3600, would be to ease that penalty some on the way there rather than slowing leveling down by 50% in one shot at a CP level reached way before hitting the cap such as 1200.

Xebov · February 2021

exeeter702 wrote: »

Yes, that is correct. A newer player with less cp has the ability to focus on a single role for thier character and not be wildly behind in performance and if they wish to re specialize, they are faced with a respec cost. Players who have invested more time have the freedom to be more flexible with their build without the need to respec.

The amount of CP you need to get in order to use the flexibility is so high that alot of players will take alot of time to get there. This leaves the question: Why have a system that allows for flexibility when the efford to get there is so high that the majority of players has to respec anyways. There is no improvement over the current CP situation in this. Its especially odd when considering that players will get all the passives first so developing into the flexibel area will be by far the slowest part.

exeeter702 · February 2021

Xebov wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Yes, that is correct. A newer player with less cp has the ability to focus on a single role for thier character and not be wildly behind in performance and if they wish to re specialize, they are faced with a respec cost. Players who have invested more time have the freedom to be more flexible with their build without the need to respec.

The amount of CP you need to get in order to use the flexibility is so high that alot of players will take alot of time to get there. This leaves the question: Why have a system that allows for flexibility when the efford to get there is so high that the majority of players has to respec anyways. There is no improvement over the current CP situation in this. Its especially odd when considering that players will get all the passives first so developing into the flexibel area will be by far the slowest part.

I dont disagree.

renne · February 2021

Xebov wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Yes, that is correct. A newer player with less cp has the ability to focus on a single role for thier character and not be wildly behind in performance and if they wish to re specialize, they are faced with a respec cost. Players who have invested more time have the freedom to be more flexible with their build without the need to respec.

The amount of CP you need to get in order to use the flexibility is so high that alot of players will take alot of time to get there. This leaves the question: Why have a system that allows for flexibility when the efford to get there is so high that the majority of players has to respec anyways. There is no improvement over the current CP situation in this. Its especially odd when considering that players will get all the passives first so developing into the flexibel area will be by far the slowest part.

Absolutely this.

And with these kinds of XP requirements, their so-called horizontal progression is out of reach of most people so far that it mightn't exist. You shouldn't have to spend all your time in the game running painful grinds just to get CP in order to progress. I'm not saying it should all be easy like early CP is, but it needs to be reasonable and those XP rates are not IMO reasonable.

ErMurazor · February 2021

renne wrote: »

Xebov wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Yes, that is correct. A newer player with less cp has the ability to focus on a single role for thier character and not be wildly behind in performance and if they wish to re specialize, they are faced with a respec cost. Players who have invested more time have the freedom to be more flexible with their build without the need to respec.

The amount of CP you need to get in order to use the flexibility is so high that alot of players will take alot of time to get there. This leaves the question: Why have a system that allows for flexibility when the efford to get there is so high that the majority of players has to respec anyways. There is no improvement over the current CP situation in this. Its especially odd when considering that players will get all the passives first so developing into the flexibel area will be by far the slowest part.

Absolutely this.

And with these kinds of XP requirements, their so-called horizontal progression is out of reach of most people so far that it mightn't exist. You shouldn't have to spend all your time in the game running painful grinds just to get CP in order to progress. I'm not saying it should all be easy like early CP is, but it needs to be reasonable and those XP rates are not IMO reasonable.

If they just could give us our new CP lvl based on total XP earned in the new system, i would be content.

Xebov · February 2021

renne wrote: »

Xebov wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Yes, that is correct. A newer player with less cp has the ability to focus on a single role for thier character and not be wildly behind in performance and if they wish to re specialize, they are faced with a respec cost. Players who have invested more time have the freedom to be more flexible with their build without the need to respec.

The amount of CP you need to get in order to use the flexibility is so high that alot of players will take alot of time to get there. This leaves the question: Why have a system that allows for flexibility when the efford to get there is so high that the majority of players has to respec anyways. There is no improvement over the current CP situation in this. Its especially odd when considering that players will get all the passives first so developing into the flexibel area will be by far the slowest part.

Absolutely this.

And with these kinds of XP requirements, their so-called horizontal progression is out of reach of most people so far that it mightn't exist. You shouldn't have to spend all your time in the game running painful grinds just to get CP in order to progress. I'm not saying it should all be easy like early CP is, but it needs to be reasonable and those XP rates are not IMO reasonable.

I think it should be as easy because half of it is horizontal. If they ant to raise the cap in future updates and add more horizontal choices (which seems to be the plan) then players have to be able to fill the system to a certain level in a reasonable amount of time.

ErMurazor wrote: »

renne wrote: »

Xebov wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Yes, that is correct. A newer player with less cp has the ability to focus on a single role for thier character and not be wildly behind in performance and if they wish to re specialize, they are faced with a respec cost. Players who have invested more time have the freedom to be more flexible with their build without the need to respec.

The amount of CP you need to get in order to use the flexibility is so high that alot of players will take alot of time to get there. This leaves the question: Why have a system that allows for flexibility when the efford to get there is so high that the majority of players has to respec anyways. There is no improvement over the current CP situation in this. Its especially odd when considering that players will get all the passives first so developing into the flexibel area will be by far the slowest part.

Absolutely this.

And with these kinds of XP requirements, their so-called horizontal progression is out of reach of most people so far that it mightn't exist. You shouldn't have to spend all your time in the game running painful grinds just to get CP in order to progress. I'm not saying it should all be easy like early CP is, but it needs to be reasonable and those XP rates are not IMO reasonable.

If they just could give us our new CP lvl based on total XP earned in the new system, i would be content.

This wouldnt change much. For example, iam slightly above 1350 CP. If i would get my CP recalculated with the new curve i would end up with 1531 CP. Thats a + of 181. Thats 60 points per tree. Given the amounts of CP we need it would be nice, but it wouldnt change much.

virtus753 · February 2021

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Blue Tree:
4 slottables = 200

1040 stamina = 40

640 crit = 40

1400 pen = 40

100 weapon damage for martial abilities = 30

+60% status effect chance = 40 (this one is the last one you should add with the least amount of impact, so really, level 1050 would be enough)

Total: 390 blue points (350 without status effect chance)
Level required: 1170

Keep in mind there are prerequisites, though, so you cannot just skip all those 40 points in Battle Mastery (the status effect chance) and still be able to take Mighty at 30 CP for the 100 weapon damage to martial attacks. You must put in 20 points at least in Battle Mastery to open Mighty.

(I would agree with you that the second set of 20 points in Battle Mastery is secondary to Mighty.)

The green tree is also hampered by a lot of prerequisites, not least the 15 points maxed crafters will waste on Inspiration Boost if they take the most direct path to Meticulous Disassembly. Having to choose between 15 completely wasted points and over 100 on either of the minimally useful alternative paths feels like a lose-lose.

Septimus_Magna · February 2021

End-game players probably have to make a transition from the idea that they're able to min-max everything to min-maxing whats possible with the CP available. After not playing a long while I just hit 1000 CP last night so I have some way to go to 1200 CP where the differences are getting smaller. The power difference in terms of PVE dps between a 1000 CP or 1200 CP character will probably not be that bad. In both cases you pick the most efficient stars first and work your way down until you run out of CP. The difference in the blue tree will only be 66 CP so I dont think that will result in 10% more dps for example.

Meiox · February 2021

exeeter702 wrote: »

Xebov wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

They never said the cap was 1200, they said 1200 was where they feel you could complete a role (DPS, Healer, Tank) . At least from a DPS perspective (probably over 50% of the playerbase) this seems to be true as of the recent patch.

That is only true if you focus on passives directly linked to your role (defence for Tanks, offense for DD/Healer) and if you focus on 4 Slotables. So there is no room for extras or choice slotables. Its the base line and getting there is taking you ~2.0-2.5 times the time coimpared to the old max of 810.
For Tanks i can tell you that i wasnt able to get all relevant things with 1350CP. This is also the main problem of the CP system. Technically it would enable players to have several slotables to choose from for their situation and enable them to have more than one role or fill hybrid roles without repecing. However the huge amounts of XP needed to achieve this will make it impossible to do. Even worse its a step back from the current system where it is partially possible.

Yes, that is correct. A newer player with less cp has the ability to focus on a single role for thier character and not be wildly behind in performance and if they wish to re specialize, they are faced with a respec cost. Players who have invested more time have the freedom to be more flexible with their build without the need to respec.

I realize this is only partially true as the unslotted passives make a difference, especially in pvp, but at some point there is going to be a power gap, but sitting at 1/3 the cp cap now (270cp) as a dps, they are far behind a dps that is at 810cp, whereas I dont believe the power gap between 1200 and 3600 for a dps role for example will be as large.

But its much faster to get to 270cp or even to 810cp now then it will be to get to 1200cp with 2.0, so how will this make it better?

aetherial_heavenn · February 2021

Starlock wrote: »

ApostateHobo wrote: »

Geez they barely adjusted it at all. At this rate it's going to take most people years to get to a decent amount of cp.

This is concerning, and probably intentional. We will know for certain it is intentional if it launches this way.

Potentially more concerning will be how expansions to the CP constellations play into this issue. If they keep adding constellations as suggested, the need for more and more CP may only intensify. Which also is perhaps very intentional - MMOs are designed to be addictive and to trap players in gameplay loops or "grind" as it is sometimes called. One of ESO's strengths is that it has NOT been excessive on that front; what we may be seeing is a reversing of that. That'll have some pretty significant implications for the game. Hmm.

The concept behind the new CP system seems to me to be a great way of levelling newer players' combat and playstyle options more quickly and flexibly while also rewarding progression by achievements/playing for long term players with more options for hybridisation or mini/maxing.

The implementation seems to be to make the game grindy for a big % of the bell curve (long term players/high CP chasers...so more gameplay loops to keep players occupied on the hamster wheel of XP. ie grind) while not compensating enough in XP for the middle of the curve players for them to see the benefits of sticking around. It looks very off putting if you nare 600 for example.

I too hope this doesn't mean a shift to an even grindier churn and burn marketing strategy. I like ESO because it hasn't strayed too far down that path. I'm still burned out from grinding Dol Amroth in LOTRO 6 years ago.

edited because I can't cut and paste

ErMurazor · February 2021

PvP is a totally different ballgame though, there you gonna see a big difference between high and low CP, you need alot more CP there to max out your char.

exeeter702 · February 2021

Meiox wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Xebov wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

They never said the cap was 1200, they said 1200 was where they feel you could complete a role (DPS, Healer, Tank) . At least from a DPS perspective (probably over 50% of the playerbase) this seems to be true as of the recent patch.

That is only true if you focus on passives directly linked to your role (defence for Tanks, offense for DD/Healer) and if you focus on 4 Slotables. So there is no room for extras or choice slotables. Its the base line and getting there is taking you ~2.0-2.5 times the time coimpared to the old max of 810.
For Tanks i can tell you that i wasnt able to get all relevant things with 1350CP. This is also the main problem of the CP system. Technically it would enable players to have several slotables to choose from for their situation and enable them to have more than one role or fill hybrid roles without repecing. However the huge amounts of XP needed to achieve this will make it impossible to do. Even worse its a step back from the current system where it is partially possible.

Yes, that is correct. A newer player with less cp has the ability to focus on a single role for thier character and not be wildly behind in performance and if they wish to re specialize, they are faced with a respec cost. Players who have invested more time have the freedom to be more flexible with their build without the need to respec.

I realize this is only partially true as the unslotted passives make a difference, especially in pvp, but at some point there is going to be a power gap, but sitting at 1/3 the cp cap now (270cp) as a dps, they are far behind a dps that is at 810cp, whereas I dont believe the power gap between 1200 and 3600 for a dps role for example will be as large.

But its much faster to get to 270cp or even to 810cp now then it will be to get to 1200cp with 2.0, so how will this make it better?

I was not making that argument. The exp curve as it stands is an issue. The concept behind reducing throughput and spreading it out more laterally and making it available at lower cp levels is universally better for the game.

lillybit · February 2021

aetherial_heavenn wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

ApostateHobo wrote: »

Geez they barely adjusted it at all. At this rate it's going to take most people years to get to a decent amount of cp.

This is concerning, and probably intentional. We will know for certain it is intentional if it launches this way.

Potentially more concerning will be how expansions to the CP constellations play into this issue. If they keep adding constellations as suggested, the need for more and more CP may only intensify. Which also is perhaps very intentional - MMOs are designed to be addictive and to trap players in gameplay loops or "grind" as it is sometimes called. One of ESO's strengths is that it has NOT been excessive on that front; what we may be seeing is a reversing of that. That'll have some pretty significant implications for the game. Hmm.

The concept behind the new CP system seems to me to be a great way of levelling newer players' combat and playstyle options more quickly and flexibly while also rewarding progression by achievements/playing for long term players with more options for hybridisation or mini/maxing.

The implementation seems to be to make the game grindy for a big % of the bell curve (long term players/high CP chasers...so more gameplay loops to keep players occupied on the hamster wheel of XP. ie grind) while not compensating enough in XP for the middle of the curve players for them to see the benefits of sticking around. It looks very off putting if you nare 600 for example.

I too hope this doesn't mean a shift to an even grindier churn and burn marketing strategy. I like ESO because it hasn't strayed too far down that path. I'm still burned out from grinding Dol Amroth in LOTRO 6 years ago.

edited because I can't cut and paste

I've been playing an alt account recently to encourage my son to play, levelling it some and collecting shinies. It currently sits at 600ish. I sub at the moment while I'm actively playing there and buy stuff I particularly like, along with most of the zone DLC'S. I'll be abandoning it now, it's just too far to go and will need to put in the work on my main account, which suddenly feels like it won't be good enough at 1500! I'm sure I'm not the only one that will be giving up on second accounts.

I'll appreciate all the money I'll save even if ZoS don't care about losing it

Hallothiel · February 2021

@lillybit
Why will you not be ‘good enough’ at 1500? That’s more than most people have.

katorga · February 2021

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

End-game players probably have to make a transition from the idea that they're able to min-max everything to min-maxing whats possible with the CP available. After not playing a long while I just hit 1000 CP last night so I have some way to go to 1200 CP where the differences are getting smaller. The power difference in terms of PVE dps between a 1000 CP or 1200 CP character will probably not be that bad. In both cases you pick the most efficient stars first and work your way down until you run out of CP. The difference in the blue tree will only be 66 CP so I dont think that will result in 10% more dps for example.

I'm min maxing what's possible with the CP available today. 810 is not enough to get all the CP1.0 perks I need at the level I want them at. Nothing changes there.

jaws343 · February 2021

Xebov wrote: »

renne wrote: »

Xebov wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Yes, that is correct. A newer player with less cp has the ability to focus on a single role for thier character and not be wildly behind in performance and if they wish to re specialize, they are faced with a respec cost. Players who have invested more time have the freedom to be more flexible with their build without the need to respec.

The amount of CP you need to get in order to use the flexibility is so high that alot of players will take alot of time to get there. This leaves the question: Why have a system that allows for flexibility when the efford to get there is so high that the majority of players has to respec anyways. There is no improvement over the current CP situation in this. Its especially odd when considering that players will get all the passives first so developing into the flexibel area will be by far the slowest part.

Absolutely this.

And with these kinds of XP requirements, their so-called horizontal progression is out of reach of most people so far that it mightn't exist. You shouldn't have to spend all your time in the game running painful grinds just to get CP in order to progress. I'm not saying it should all be easy like early CP is, but it needs to be reasonable and those XP rates are not IMO reasonable.

I think it should be as easy because half of it is horizontal. If they ant to raise the cap in future updates and add more horizontal choices (which seems to be the plan) then players have to be able to fill the system to a certain level in a reasonable amount of time.

ErMurazor wrote: »

renne wrote: »

Xebov wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Yes, that is correct. A newer player with less cp has the ability to focus on a single role for thier character and not be wildly behind in performance and if they wish to re specialize, they are faced with a respec cost. Players who have invested more time have the freedom to be more flexible with their build without the need to respec.

The amount of CP you need to get in order to use the flexibility is so high that alot of players will take alot of time to get there. This leaves the question: Why have a system that allows for flexibility when the efford to get there is so high that the majority of players has to respec anyways. There is no improvement over the current CP situation in this. Its especially odd when considering that players will get all the passives first so developing into the flexibel area will be by far the slowest part.

Absolutely this.

And with these kinds of XP requirements, their so-called horizontal progression is out of reach of most people so far that it mightn't exist. You shouldn't have to spend all your time in the game running painful grinds just to get CP in order to progress. I'm not saying it should all be easy like early CP is, but it needs to be reasonable and those XP rates are not IMO reasonable.

If they just could give us our new CP lvl based on total XP earned in the new system, i would be content.

This wouldnt change much. For example, iam slightly above 1350 CP. If i would get my CP recalculated with the new curve i would end up with 1531 CP. Thats a + of 181. Thats 60 points per tree. Given the amounts of CP we need it would be nice, but it wouldnt change much.

181 CP is a huge jump considering it is over 1M XP per CP at that point.

Xebov · February 2021

jaws343 wrote: »

Xebov wrote: »

renne wrote: »

Xebov wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Yes, that is correct. A newer player with less cp has the ability to focus on a single role for thier character and not be wildly behind in performance and if they wish to re specialize, they are faced with a respec cost. Players who have invested more time have the freedom to be more flexible with their build without the need to respec.

The amount of CP you need to get in order to use the flexibility is so high that alot of players will take alot of time to get there. This leaves the question: Why have a system that allows for flexibility when the efford to get there is so high that the majority of players has to respec anyways. There is no improvement over the current CP situation in this. Its especially odd when considering that players will get all the passives first so developing into the flexibel area will be by far the slowest part.

Absolutely this.

And with these kinds of XP requirements, their so-called horizontal progression is out of reach of most people so far that it mightn't exist. You shouldn't have to spend all your time in the game running painful grinds just to get CP in order to progress. I'm not saying it should all be easy like early CP is, but it needs to be reasonable and those XP rates are not IMO reasonable.

I think it should be as easy because half of it is horizontal. If they ant to raise the cap in future updates and add more horizontal choices (which seems to be the plan) then players have to be able to fill the system to a certain level in a reasonable amount of time.

ErMurazor wrote: »

renne wrote: »

Xebov wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Yes, that is correct. A newer player with less cp has the ability to focus on a single role for thier character and not be wildly behind in performance and if they wish to re specialize, they are faced with a respec cost. Players who have invested more time have the freedom to be more flexible with their build without the need to respec.

The amount of CP you need to get in order to use the flexibility is so high that alot of players will take alot of time to get there. This leaves the question: Why have a system that allows for flexibility when the efford to get there is so high that the majority of players has to respec anyways. There is no improvement over the current CP situation in this. Its especially odd when considering that players will get all the passives first so developing into the flexibel area will be by far the slowest part.

Absolutely this.

And with these kinds of XP requirements, their so-called horizontal progression is out of reach of most people so far that it mightn't exist. You shouldn't have to spend all your time in the game running painful grinds just to get CP in order to progress. I'm not saying it should all be easy like early CP is, but it needs to be reasonable and those XP rates are not IMO reasonable.

If they just could give us our new CP lvl based on total XP earned in the new system, i would be content.

This wouldnt change much. For example, iam slightly above 1350 CP. If i would get my CP recalculated with the new curve i would end up with 1531 CP. Thats a + of 181. Thats 60 points per tree. Given the amounts of CP we need it would be nice, but it wouldnt change much.

181 CP is a huge jump considering it is over 1M XP per CP at that point.

Yeah, but given the split between the trees and the amount of CP you need to get some of the stars its something between 0.5 and 1 star per tree, which is next to nothing. This combined with your observation is the neck breaker of this rework.

jaws343 · February 2021

Xebov wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Xebov wrote: »

renne wrote: »

Xebov wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Yes, that is correct. A newer player with less cp has the ability to focus on a single role for thier character and not be wildly behind in performance and if they wish to re specialize, they are faced with a respec cost. Players who have invested more time have the freedom to be more flexible with their build without the need to respec.

The amount of CP you need to get in order to use the flexibility is so high that alot of players will take alot of time to get there. This leaves the question: Why have a system that allows for flexibility when the efford to get there is so high that the majority of players has to respec anyways. There is no improvement over the current CP situation in this. Its especially odd when considering that players will get all the passives first so developing into the flexibel area will be by far the slowest part.

Absolutely this.

And with these kinds of XP requirements, their so-called horizontal progression is out of reach of most people so far that it mightn't exist. You shouldn't have to spend all your time in the game running painful grinds just to get CP in order to progress. I'm not saying it should all be easy like early CP is, but it needs to be reasonable and those XP rates are not IMO reasonable.

I think it should be as easy because half of it is horizontal. If they ant to raise the cap in future updates and add more horizontal choices (which seems to be the plan) then players have to be able to fill the system to a certain level in a reasonable amount of time.

ErMurazor wrote: »

renne wrote: »

Xebov wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Yes, that is correct. A newer player with less cp has the ability to focus on a single role for thier character and not be wildly behind in performance and if they wish to re specialize, they are faced with a respec cost. Players who have invested more time have the freedom to be more flexible with their build without the need to respec.

The amount of CP you need to get in order to use the flexibility is so high that alot of players will take alot of time to get there. This leaves the question: Why have a system that allows for flexibility when the efford to get there is so high that the majority of players has to respec anyways. There is no improvement over the current CP situation in this. Its especially odd when considering that players will get all the passives first so developing into the flexibel area will be by far the slowest part.

Absolutely this.

And with these kinds of XP requirements, their so-called horizontal progression is out of reach of most people so far that it mightn't exist. You shouldn't have to spend all your time in the game running painful grinds just to get CP in order to progress. I'm not saying it should all be easy like early CP is, but it needs to be reasonable and those XP rates are not IMO reasonable.

If they just could give us our new CP lvl based on total XP earned in the new system, i would be content.

This wouldnt change much. For example, iam slightly above 1350 CP. If i would get my CP recalculated with the new curve i would end up with 1531 CP. Thats a + of 181. Thats 60 points per tree. Given the amounts of CP we need it would be nice, but it wouldnt change much.

181 CP is a huge jump considering it is over 1M XP per CP at that point.

Yeah, but given the split between the trees and the amount of CP you need to get some of the stars its something between 0.5 and 1 star per tree, which is next to nothing. This combined with your observation is the neck breaker of this rework.

I just wouldn't consider almost a half a year of CP gain a minor thing. That's not to say the 5+ years it could take to get to 3600 isn't also a problem. But granting equalizing XP in the new system would be a good first step, even if it is only 20 CP for some people, 181 for others, and 500 for people who earned more XP in the current system. It's still XP that was used to gain CP in the current system that costs a lot more than the same CP in the new system.

lillybit · February 2021

Hallothiel wrote: »

@lillybit
Why will you not be ‘good enough’ at 1500? That’s more than most people have.

I mostly do everything with one main character -trials, dungeons, pvp, crafting, fishing. About the only thing I don't really do is BG's and I'm sure I'll get to that eventually! There's still alot of vertical progression after that point. It'll make it hard to not specialise in one thing or another.

Probably it won't make much practical difference but that won't change the feeling that I should be higher and that it impacts my gameplay.

Edited because I'm tired and was being snippy, sorry about that!