CP Overhaul Doesn't Make Sense to Me

Mashille · January 2021

The main problem with Champion System 1.0 was that more points simply made you stronger, the more points you had, the stronger you were meaning in scenarios like PvP, lower CP players really didn't have a chance vs higher CP players. This is why the caps were introduced so that the power level difference would not be as major.

I thought the whole point of the new CP system 2.0 was to remove this problem? To make it so that, earning more CP simply allows you to choose new different options rather than simply making you stronger. The implementation of the "You can only slot 4 passives from each tree at a time" is clearly meant for this type of ideology, where, when you have more points, you can unlock more interesting and unique Champion Passives to have in your 12 slots, replacing passives you used to use with ones that might be used differently or alter how you play without objectively making you stronger.

This all makes sense until you see that there are so many passives in the tree that do not require slotting, meaning they have the exact same problem as the original system where putting points into them makes you objectively more powerful than a player who cannot afford to spend as many points as you. Passives like:

Increase healing over time / direct / AOE
Reduce cost of break free
Reduce cost of dodge rolling
Reduce duration of status effects
Increase max health / mag / stam
Increase offensive penetration
Reduce damage taken
And a load of others...

I am thoroughly confused, surely all these passives that don't require slotting and only require having points put into them, completely negates the whole reason why the CP system was reworked in the first place?

theCampeR_ · January 2021

New System > More grinding > More exp scrolls and Re-specs sold > More money

What unbalance?

Elo106 · January 2021

Agreed I had hoped the new CP would close the gap between low and high CP so we could finally do away with No CP Content... this new system was a good idea but it seems half way through they forgot why they are reworking the system in the first place...

killingspreeb16_ESO · January 2021

Yep this is like the alpha version of what CP 2.0 should be.

They either put a cap on the CP that increase every DLC with a good catch up system so new player or even vet player that don't grind zombie 24h a day can still be competitive and still give a needed progression and can balance point and stuff better.

Or no cap and remove most of the passive choice and add more slottable one so people can grind as much as they want and will be able to swap point and be more versatile all around.

This version that was supposed to be more horizontal progression is just a worse vertical progression than what we got now.

Zpook · January 2021

There should always be a gap between low and high. A new player shouldnt be able to come near a long time player in cp.

Mashille · January 2021

Zpook wrote: »

There should always be a gap between low and high. A new player shouldn't be able to come near a long time player in cp.

There is a major difference between a new player being less powerful than an experienced player, and someone who has an abundance of time to grind on their hands being vastly more powerful than a player who can only play every now and then.

I have a lot of time in the game. However, nowadays I don't get to play a soften due to being busy with other stuff (work etc) and if that means me, having only 1000CP, can't remotely compete with someone who had the time to grind to 2000+CP purely because they have objectively higher stats then the system rework has failed.

Odovacar · January 2021

I always knew when ZOS would finally announce the new CP system it would turn a lot of people sour, naturally.

I really wish I could join in with discussions on how I feel about it but since I don't have access to the PTS us console players will be left in the lurk for another 6 weeks. I've heard a lot of mixed reviews so far and that for sure adds to our confusion on such a huge change to our game.

Mashille · January 2021

Odovacar wrote: »

I always knew when ZOS would finally announce the new CP system it would turn a lot of people sour, naturally.

I really wish I could join in with discussions on how I feel about it but since I don't have access to the PTS us console players will be left in the lurk for another 6 weeks. I've heard a lot of mixed reviews so far and that for sure adds to our confusion on such a huge change to our game.

I do still think it's an improvement over the current system, but I definitely think it needs some changes to stop it falling into the same pits the last system fell into.

Dark_Lord_Kuro · January 2021

Mashille wrote: »

Zpook wrote: »

There should always be a gap between low and high. A new player shouldn't be able to come near a long time player in cp.

There is a major difference between a new player being less powerful than an experienced player, and someone who has an abundance of time to grind on their hands being vastly more powerful than a player who can only play every now and then.

I have a lot of time in the game. However, nowadays I don't get to play a soften due to being busy with other stuff (work etc) and if that means me, having only 1000CP, can't remotely compete with someone who had the time to grind to 2000+CP purely because they have objectively higher stats then the system rework has failed.

You shouldn't be able to compete with someone that as twice your level no matter what

nqvarihs · January 2021

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

Mashille wrote: »

Zpook wrote: »

There should always be a gap between low and high. A new player shouldn't be able to come near a long time player in cp.

There is a major difference between a new player being less powerful than an experienced player, and someone who has an abundance of time to grind on their hands being vastly more powerful than a player who can only play every now and then.

I have a lot of time in the game. However, nowadays I don't get to play a soften due to being busy with other stuff (work etc) and if that means me, having only 1000CP, can't remotely compete with someone who had the time to grind to 2000+CP purely because they have objectively higher stats then the system rework has failed.

You shouldn't be able to compete with someone that as twice your level no matter what

so player skill should simply be worthless and the game all about a mindless grind? i guess we can even go further: you shouldn't be able to compete with someone who has better gear no matter what. and you shouldn't be able to compete with someone who has a better class, no matter what.

[snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Mashille · January 2021

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

You shouldn't be able to compete with someone that as twice your level no matter what

Then its a good thing that the Level Cap is 50 and Champion Points aren't levels

Elo106 · January 2021

Zpook wrote: »

There should always be a gap between low and high. A new player shouldnt be able to come near a long time player in cp.

why?

VaranisArano · January 2021

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

Mashille wrote: »

Zpook wrote: »

There should always be a gap between low and high. A new player shouldn't be able to come near a long time player in cp.

There is a major difference between a new player being less powerful than an experienced player, and someone who has an abundance of time to grind on their hands being vastly more powerful than a player who can only play every now and then.

I have a lot of time in the game. However, nowadays I don't get to play a soften due to being busy with other stuff (work etc) and if that means me, having only 1000CP, can't remotely compete with someone who had the time to grind to 2000+CP purely because they have objectively higher stats then the system rework has failed.

You shouldn't be able to compete with someone that as twice your level no matter what

Well, that makes Below 50 Battlegrounds awkward, doesn't it?

Lughlongarm · January 2021

Ya, I the new system in concept but I also noticed some strangeness is the system.

1)The system does seem more vertical than horizontal, especially if Zos is planning to add more purple Nebulas which mostly consist of passive stars.

2)The star web seems random in terms of power, it's not like a skill tree that strong stars are the top and you need to clear your by putting points on average stars in terms of power. Some of the best stars are easy picks other meha stars requires a lot of investment.

3)The special red stars have huge power differences in terms of power(more of a balance issue).

Fischblut · January 2021

earning more CP simply allows you to choose new different options rather than simply making you stronger.

I honestly didn't analyze red and blue CP trees enough (no interest to do it until EU is copied on PTS), but I absolutely love new green tree

Earning more CP allows me to do exactly that: get new options

After I grind more CPs once the patch is on live server, I will be able to Increase my mount's movement speed by up to 10%, permanently get the double drops from resource nodes, get few awesome perks for my thieves (increase quality/chance to get higher quality items from pickpocketing, get invisibility after using Blade of Woe, increase cost of fenced items by 15%) etc

It's only somewhat annoying that current useful passives (increasing speed of gathering crafting resources, increasing quality of loot in treasure chests etc) will take much more CPs to unlock in new update... But I will gladly grind more mobs and random BGs to have (max on PTS) 100% chance to get double crafting resources over (max on live) 10% chance

Mashille · January 2021

Fischblut wrote: »

I honestly didn't analyze red and blue CP trees enough (no interest to do it until EU is copied on PTS), but I absolutely love new green tree Earning more CP allows me to do exactly that: get new options After I grind more CPs once the patch is on live server, I will be able to Increase my mount's movement speed by up to 10%, permanently get the double drops from resource nodes, get few awesome perks for my thieves (increase quality/chance to get higher quality items from pickpocketing, get invisibility after using Blade of Woe, increase cost of fenced items by 15%) etc

It's only somewhat annoying that current useful passives (increasing speed of gathering crafting resources, increasing quality of loot in treasure chests etc) will take much more CPs to unlock in new update... But I will gladly grind more mobs and random BGs to have (max on PTS) 100% chance to get double crafting resources over (max on live) 10% chance

100% agree. I love everything in the green 'Craft' tree. All the cool and niche bonuses are things I would want way more of in the CP system and less of "Increase damage by X", "Increase Stamina by X" etc.

I think any Champion Point Passive which doesn't require being placed in 1 of your 12 slots should be along similar lines to all the passives in the 'Craft' tree, that way the passives you choose to slot are the ones which can make you stronger and the ones that unlock and not not need slotting instead give these "non-combat" bonuses like those in the 'Craft' tree currently do.

Xeniph · January 2021

Mashille wrote: »

Zpook wrote: »

There should always be a gap between low and high. A new player shouldn't be able to come near a long time player in cp.

There is a major difference between a new player being less powerful than an experienced player, and someone who has an abundance of time to grind on their hands being vastly more powerful than a player who can only play every now and then.

I have a lot of time in the game. However, nowadays I don't get to play a soften due to being busy with other stuff (work etc) and if that means me, having only 1000CP, can't remotely compete with someone who had the time to grind to 2000+CP purely because they have objectively higher stats then the system rework has failed.

Regardless of what they have/will say. The CP rework has very little to do with a power gap, or progression, if at all. That's just marketing bullet points.

It's quite clear from the new system it's main purpose is to address performance more than anything. Second on the list would be to add to the grind, or in dev speak "longevity" of the game.

Nebthet78 · January 2021

In all honestly, the more I look at CP 2.0 the more I don't see any difference what so ever to CP 1.0 other than a huge hidden nerf to what we currently have and a more convoluted system of perks that are very confusing to follow rather than being simplistic and understandable.

Frankly, it looks like someone slapped together something at the last minute to adhere to a planned nerfing of a system in an effort to force new players to the Crown Store to buy a catch up mechanic and more XP scrolls and other items.

I don't see any true balance in this system at all.
It's time for ZOS to accept the fact they cannot properly balance this game without completely separating pvp and pve.

SodanTok · January 2021

Elo106 wrote: »

Zpook wrote: »

There should always be a gap between low and high. A new player shouldnt be able to come near a long time player in cp.

why?

Coz its MMO RPG game. Scratch thats. Its multiplayer game. Time invested creates gap be it gear gap, level gap or individual skill gap. The less is individual skill part of the gap the more are other tools. Some of the most competitive games like Dota2 or CSGO base their gap on 100% individual skill (not counting gap created from poor person HW and next gen machine) the more casual games introduce gap from time investment into gear or abilities or just pure levels that say how strong you are.

No gap means no players.

Mashille · January 2021

Xeniph wrote: »

Regardless of what they have/will say. The CP rework has very little to do with a power gap, or progression, if at all. That's just marketing bullet points.

It's quite clear from the new system it's main purpose is to address performance more than anything. Second on the list would be to add to the grind, or in dev speak "longevity" of the game.

I agree, most of the changes seem to be to reduce server calculations in most areas, changing to lots of flat stat increases instead of percentages.

QuebraRegra · January 2021

Nebthet78 wrote: »

In all honestly, the more I look at CP 2.0 the more I don't see any difference what so ever to CP 1.0 other than a huge hidden nerf to what we currently have and a more convoluted system of perks that are very confusing to follow rather than being simplistic and understandable.

Frankly, it looks like someone slapped together something at the last minute to adhere to a planned nerfing of a system in an effort to force new players to the Crown Store to buy a catch up mechanic and more XP scrolls and other items.

I don't see any true balance in this system at all.
It's time for ZOS to accept the fact they cannot properly balance this game without completely separating pvp and pve.

THAT separation should have occurred LOOOONG ago... perhaps at the creation of the game. I'm still waiting on the explanation/excuses as to why they cannot be balanced separately.

QuebraRegra · January 2021

Mashille wrote: »

Xeniph wrote: »

Regardless of what they have/will say. The CP rework has very little to do with a power gap, or progression, if at all. That's just marketing bullet points.

It's quite clear from the new system it's main purpose is to address performance more than anything. Second on the list would be to add to the grind, or in dev speak "longevity" of the game.

I agree, most of the changes seem to be to reduce server calculations in most areas, changing to lots of flat stat increases instead of percentages.

yes, most of the nerfs I see in the form of upcoming patch changes to races also reflect this. We definitely need performance improvements.. infrastructure could have been upgraded years ago... Frankly they recently made client/server changes (for PVP) that made the strain on the server checks even worse. How about them pets everywhere?

QuebraRegra · January 2021

SodanTok wrote: »

Elo106 wrote: »

Zpook wrote: »

There should always be a gap between low and high. A new player shouldnt be able to come near a long time player in cp.

why?

Coz its MMO RPG game. Scratch thats. Its multiplayer game. Time invested creates gap be it gear gap, level gap or individual skill gap. The less is individual skill part of the gap the more are other tools. Some of the most competitive games like Dota2 or CSGO base their gap on 100% individual skill (not counting gap created from poor person HW and next gen machine) the more casual games introduce gap from time investment into gear or abilities or just pure levels that say how strong you are.

No gap means no players.

untrue... but people do need to feel "progression". I always thought non-vet no CP alliance war was the best version... it was more a game of skill and knowledge, rather than exploits.

Elo106 · January 2021

SodanTok wrote: »

Elo106 wrote: »

Zpook wrote: »

There should always be a gap between low and high. A new player shouldnt be able to come near a long time player in cp.

why?

Coz its MMO RPG game. Scratch thats. Its multiplayer game. Time invested creates gap be it gear gap, level gap or individual skill gap. The less is individual skill part of the gap the more are other tools. Some of the most competitive games like Dota2 or CSGO base their gap on 100% individual skill (not counting gap created from poor person HW and next gen machine) the more casual games introduce gap from time investment into gear or abilities or just pure levels that say how strong you are.

No gap means no players.

If a fight between 2 players is mainly decided through skill and the 2 players dont know each other both can hope to win.

If a fight between 2 players is mainly decided through their level why even try to fight a player much higher in level?

Take that to the extreme and anyone except the highest level players would move to no CP until they are high CP themselves.

I dont want to be mean just trying to understand your view. At that point why fight at all just check the levels and the one with less dies instantly?

MashmalloMan · January 2021

The new system is great. In my view, where 100% of the power was tied to leveling CP higher on live has now been spread out to 50% upon just hitting level 50 and the other 50% from leveling up, while also allowing us to customize our builds much more instead of being tied down to a specific setup or forced to respec for different roles.

You get a crazy amount of power from level 50 that you don't need any CP investment for..

7k hp for lv 50 vs like 2500hp from potential CP stars.
4k stamina for lv 50 vs like 2600 from potential CP stars.
1k weapon damage for lv 50 vs like 300 weapon damage from CP stars.
-15% damage reduction for lv 50 vs like -5% from CP Stars.

I don't see the problem here.. Why are people so obsessed with what a level 3600 cp player can do when the gains are like 70-75% of the available power just for hitting level 50 with the remaining power through cp, yet on live you need to hit at least 400-500 cp to be in that scenario where you're 20-25% weaker than a max 810 level player.

The reality is, we're all going to have to level to some degree. I don't see a large nerf or buff with the new system, but I see a LOT of variety and customization, especially with allowing us to have a Craft tree and the slottable perks.

I don't feel like a large part of this community has tried other mmos that raise the level cap every major update forcing their entire player base to not only grind for exp, but forces them to obtain new gear to meet that level. This game has other problems like nerfing/buffing us too much every 3 months, but this CP system is one of their best changes to date.

This is one of, if not the only MMO where I can say I've had the same sets in my bank and now the collection system for 4-5 years, they're still good in their own ways. So to me, a little bit of an experience grind after a 2 year break from any meaningful level progression is definitely missed. This notion that you need 2600cp to be at full power floating around or that pve trial groups will only accept you in with a certain amount of CP is crazy. I've counted what I need for stam dps and it looks like 1400-1600 would suffice.

zvavi · January 2021

No noooothe aim was less stars, so less calculations on server, thats why we have in addition to the 8 combat related slottable stars, we have 16 passive stars in the warfare tree!

MashmalloMan · January 2021

zvavi wrote: »

No noooothe aim was less stars, so less calculations on server, thats why we have in addition to the 8 combat related slottable stars, we have 16 passive stars in the warfare tree!

Yeah they made that pretty clear.

A great way to look at it is how the stats have changed. The percent based multipliers are moved to the 4/8 combat based slots and have also reduced in value with other options available like +stamina, + weapon damage or + max hp. There is really only 3 % based multipliers for dot, direct and aoe. The rest of the previous CP systems power is either added to our base character sheet or passively and they appear to mostly be flat stats again. They could of easily added the 20% hp/stam/magicka to us at level 50, but they chose flat values for a reason. The same choice was made for racial changes 2 years ago.

Instead of having -20% damage taken from magical, physical, dot and direct damage from 4 stars, 7 if you count the 3 for +armor, we now just get -15% damage taken from everything for being level 50 and 1 star for armor. You're going down from 7 calculations to 2 in that respect.

Applying stats to your character sheet, especially stats that apply to everyone, are a lot more proficient than asking the system to constantly calculate every minor difference between someones cp setup vs your own.